The Joys of Socialist Europe

[Shitoryu Dude]

Every time I hear someone tell me about how wonderful it is to live in Europe and all the benefits they get for their outrageous taxes, I read an article like this that tells me about the 36% unemployment rate in Europe. Hell, even under Jimmy Carter (rot in hell) we never saw anything that bad, and for us it was total hell.

:beer:

Seattle Post-Intelligencer (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/printer/ap.asp?category=1310&slug=EU%20Economy)

EU says Europe falling behind on economy

By ROBERT WIELAARD
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

BRUSSELS, Belgium -- European Union nations are dragging their heels in their ambitious drive to become the world's most competitive economy by the end of the decade, the European Commission said Wednesday.

The EU's executive agency said Europe is falling further behind the United States after a standstill year in which European job growth evaporated, public finances deteriorated and the average unemployment rate rose to 8.1 percent.

In an annual survey of how the 15 EU nations fare in trying to become economically more dynamic, European Commission President Romano Prodi said governments lack political will to overhaul the continent's economies.

His report lamented a "substantial gap" between Europe and the United States in the ability to rally risk capital and money for research and development, quickly process patent applications and spend generously on information technologies.

EU employers reacted to the report with a new plea for governments to cut red tape and "deliver economic reform."

At a 2000 summit in Lisbon, Portugal, the EU leaders pledged to overtake the United States as the world's leading economy by 2010.

The plan was to boost investments in information technology, accelerating integration of European energy, transportation, telecommunications and other markets, aiming for an employment rate of 67 percent and making labor markets more flexible.

Four years on, "the overall picture ... is mixed," Prodi told the European Parliament where he formally unveiled the survey's findings.

The EU "member states do not seem to realize that 2010 is around the corner. Four years after Lisbon it is clear that we are going to miss our midterm targets," he said.

According to the EU head office, employment was stagnating at 64 percent and that for the 55-64 age group the rate was only 40.1 percent.

Among other things it blamed inadequate use of information and communication technologies, insufficient investments in research, innovation, education and training and a still fragmented EU home market that grows to 25 nations in May.

France, Germany and Italy top the list of nations failing to make the required economic and labor law reforms, said Prodi, while Austria, Luxembourg, Denmark, the Netherlands, and Sweden have done best,

The Commission criticized resistance to a single EU patent - crucial to quickly bringing new products and services on the market - or EU-wide criteria for professional standards.

"The worst of all is the lack of leadership the report highlights in EU member states," said Paul Hofheinz, president of the Lisbon Council, a Brussels-based research institute.

"Everyone knows what needs to be done. But unless Europe acts now, there won't be much of an economy left to reform."

Ireland, which now holds the EU's rotating presidency, wants to breathe new life into the so-called Lisbon Agenda.

UNICE, the umbrella organization of European employers federations, urged Ireland to ensure the EU leaders "commit themselves unambiguously to deliver economic reform" and cut red tape that stands "in the way of making Europe the most competitive economy in the world."

The Commission report said the EU's productivity growth rate- now between 0.5 and 1 percent - was far below the U.S. rate of 2 percent. "Lower labor productivity per hour worked now represents 40 percent of the difference in GDP per capita between the EU and the USA," the report said.

It put Europe's per capita economic output at 72 percent of that of the United States, a gap "illustrates the need to stimulate market integration, business dynamism, and investment, particularly in knowledge."

The report did not mention the fall of the dollar against the euro in recent months. The rising value of the euro is hurting European exports and slowing the continent's economic recovery.

The Commission criticized France and Germany for running budget deficits over 3 percent of gross domestic product in violation of the ground rules for the shared currency.

Across the 12-nation euro-zone, "the average nominal budget deficit worsened further in 2003 to 2.7 percent of GDP," said the Commission report.

It pointed to growing pension responsibilities. "Long-term sustainability of public finances, particularly in view of the aging population, is not yet secured in about half the member states," the report said.

[Dex]

Well 36% unemployment is just fantasy figures, that is rubbish.

Yes Italy, France and Germany are slower in keeping up to agenda, but they have the largest economies so that is to be expected.

'EU head office'? Never heard of it.

Yes the export situation with America is hurting, but that has been manufactured by Bush with his devaluation of the dollar. Most of the world has already complained about this. (Bush is crippling his own economy so the US voters feel like they have more money to spend)

How can Italian Romano Prodi be president if Ireland holds the presidency? (A silly point of course. But to be truthful Italy did it's best to hurt the EU politically while Berlusconi was in charge)

The (highly fallacious) employment figures are coming from varied sources but mainly because 10 new (economically poorer) countries are wanting to join the EU.

And when they join...that will give the EU 400 million consumers. We will see who is laughing in 15 years time. :)


btw it mentions concern about pensions...that is true...can I ask what America is doing about the pensions crisis?

[Shitoryu Dude]

You make your own pension or live :laugh: off of Social Security when you retire. Your retirement is what you make of it, so don't expect anyone to come along and support you if you didn't plan well for your own future. Americans are given a variety of options to invest in several retirement plans, the most popular being the 401(k).

And Bush can't devalue the dollar - that relies on totally independent market forces. And all economic indicators are off in some way, but somehow they came up 36% unemployment, and that is just nuts. Even in the worst days of the '70s recession it was only 14% in localized areas of the US.

:beer:

[Iain]

If Mr. Economics and stats here says it's crap, I'll buy it. Europe is doing just fine. I've got friends and relatives across the economic and geographical reach of most of western Europe, and things have been improving across the board since the neo-cons got booted out of office. Thanks to Mrs 'Iron Lady' Thatcher, the town I lived in had an unemployment rate of over 50%, and my mother had to hold down three jobs to make as much as she could have on welfare. We tried the neo-classical approach, Harv, and it failed miserably. It also cost us the bulk of our public assets at the same time.

Economic policy won't work if it doesn't fit the civil and cultural outlines within which it is designed to operate. Europe as a whole is still and emergent power spanning a historically and politically diverse geographic area. It's going to take time and trial and error to craft an economic policy to fit countries as diverse as Poland and England.

The article is pretty clearly advocating a neo-classical approach, or some form of economic 'shock therapy' in the vein of Russian economic reform (from which it has yet to fully recover). Rampant free-market economy breaks things before it fixes anything, and the last thing the EU needs is transnational capital running roughshod across its social institutions. Remember that whole hare and tortoise thing... real conservatives try to 'conserve' things, not trample them underfoot in a limp attempt to garner the consideration of a few transnational corporations. Nations and the citizens of those nations should not be forced to bury their civil institutions and go cap-in-hand to a board of directors with no democratic mandate and no right to dictate domestic policy. It's about balancing interests between the various spheres of human existance, not prostrating yourself before the forces of the 'free' market.

Oh, and excuse us for not starving our senior citizens if they failed to consider investing in their retirement. Murderers, rapists and thiefs should get punished for their indiscretions, not old people lacking in financial accumen. Things have changed markedly since our current wave of pensioners were in their 20s. There was an operational welfare state that was supposed to provide for them -not in any small part due to the taxes that were paid into the system. People thought they were investing in their retirement. However, a confluence of government mismanagement, and a movement of capital out of nations that refused to abase themselves before the almighty dollar robbed them of their investment. Too bad for them, I guess. They can just starve...

[AlexM]

Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude

And Bush can't devalue the dollar - that relies on totally independent market forces.

:beer:

You're very mistaken on this one. There are a myriad of mechanisms that can be used to play around with currency value. The most common (and probably simplest) being interest rates (when set by a central bank such as the Federal Reserve). There are others ways of doing it too (I'm sure Mr. Elo can describe some of the more creative ways of devaluing a currency).

All states tend to try to manipulate their currency's value towards their own needs: market forces are not the only thing playing into it. Just last year, Japanese PM Koizumi was pushing for the yen to lose some value in order to make Japanese exports more ... ummm... exportable.

Bush can't by himself devalue a currency: he can however tell the chairman of the Federal Reserve to keep interest rates low and thus keep the currency value down (or falling). It doesn't always work of course...

So anyway, long story short: Yes, George Bush (and the US admin.) is partly responsible for the value of the greenback.

[Shitoryu Dude]

The Chairmen of the Fed acts independently of the wishes of the President. He can't be fired, and his term lasts longer. What's he going to do, glare at him?

:beer:

[Iain]

Because the US is completely free of ideological nepotism, and the Chairman of the Fed would never think of cozying up to the incumbent party for the sake of earning brownie points. People are more inclined to listen to those they like, or those with power simply because it's the human thing to do. Civil institutions don't exist in a vacuum, and nobody operates based solely on the perogative of their office.

Besides, if the chairman of the Fed wanted to cap the dollar to keep exports up, you don't think he'd do it, to hell with the market? The political machinations going on behind the scenes have just as much to do with the state of the market as 'natural' price fluctuation and the boom-bust cycle. It's more prominent in other countries, but just because it's been pushed to the back of the American psyche doesn't mean it's not there.

People with status will do whatever it takes to retain it, and then disguise their actions as inherent to their natural supremacy. The Church did it, the colonial powers did it, and the post-colonial powers are doing it right now.

[Starkjudo]

Originally posted by Iain
Oh, and excuse us for not starving our senior citizens if they failed to consider investing in their retirement.

No one said you starve your senior citizens. Everyone knows they die of heat exhaustion long before starvation.

[Shitoryu Dude]

Various Chairmen of the Fed have long histories of thumbing their noses at the President - you are barking up the wrong tree on this one.

Yeah, what about those 15,000 people who died of exposure in France this summer? We had similar temperatures all across the US with barely any heat related deaths. Of course, we can afford air conditioning.

:beer:

[primeape]

Just a minor point: equating 64 per cent employment with 36 per cent unemployment reveals that the writer may have some arithmetic, but is blissfully ignorant of statistics and economy. The 64 per cent is the share of working-age, 16 to 65, people employed, meaning that people in higher education, armed services and otherwise activated are not counted as working. The real unemployment rate in the EU is somewhere around ten per cent.

Well, maybe in the US anybody over 16 is working, and nobody goes to secondary school or university or college, and all the institutions of higher learning are filled with chinese overseas students. In fact this explains a lot.
It is true the european labour market is not working too well. However, if you take a look at Netherlands or the UK you may get surprised. (For the americans, those are two european states, in case you did not learn too much at high school before going to work...:))
Besides, if the US jail population were cut to euroepan level, and the released prisoners put on the dole the unemployment would be rather closer to european levels.So please, at least make sure you know what you are talking about before making conclusions

Primeape, Helsinki
Vesa Varhee
Professional economist and cynic

[Iain]

Point is no institution exists in a vacuum. I'll admit that I don't know too much about the psychological peculiarities that exist within the American polity, but politics, economics, and civil society are an incestual bunch, and assuming that any one institution is going to act based only on its own set of rational principals with no subjective bias (one that can be manipulated or exploited) is going to cause more problems than it will solve.

As to the French people dropping like flies... it was one of the longest and hottest summers ever in France. It was more than unseasonable, it was downright bizarre. If some chunk of S. California froze solid for a month, I'm betting you'd see something similar. It's not that they couldn't afford air conditioners, it's that people hadn't needed them, and they weren't readily available as consumer goods. Was it bad? yeah. Should it have happened? No. Do eskimos need fridges? The problem wasn't a lack of air conditioners, it was a lack of familial and governmental concern for the elderly -something that is becoming more prominent across the globe. People should look after the elderly, not dump them in horrible nursing-homes, let them cook to death, or let them starve.

[Iain]

Anyone who tells you they're not biased can't be trusted further than they can be thrown. Anyone who tries to naturalize their bias by founding arguments in the commonsensical and donning the mantle of an officiated position can't even be trusted that far. Anyone doing both of these things and then using spurious statistics to defend their position is scum and should be dragged out into the street and shot. Having asessed that this guys numbers are more fudged than an oompa loompa fallen victim to a work related accident, and also given the fact that the other two above mentioned offenses are necessary prerequisites of the third, I nominate this guy for first up against the wall when the revolution comes.

:D

I'll do a lot of pretty rotten things to win an argument, but I'd burn your mother down, shag your dog, and run over your house before I'd intentionally misrepresent what precious little facts there are for the sake of personal aggrandisement

[Dex]

http://www.imf.org/external/Pubs/NFT/Op/227/index.htm

Anyway, on a higher level a large part of the (world-wide) problem is political interference in currency values and interest rates.

Tariffs, subsidies, embargos, sweeteners, interest rates, debt repayments et al continue to manipulate world markets because politicians operate in 4 or 5 year terms. The argument that Bank Comptrollers (Federal or otherwise) act independently of their respective governments is entirely fallacious and just confuses the argument.

Another thread talks about 'out-sourcing' - ie the fact that many countries can do the same work as us for around (a generous estimate) 1/4 the wages for the workers. And I am not talking about sweatshops. It is a totally transparent fact that this means they can produce, market and retail almost every product much more cheaply than the current western industrial complex model.

And they will. This will level out currency values around the world which basically means that ours (Dollar, Pound, Euro (Euro is a special case though)) will all suffer in the medium to long term. Hands up anyone who sees their elected politicians dealing with this 'medium to long term' problem?

[Shitoryu Dude]

More like it is subject to pressure - which may or may not work very well. At least here in the US the President cannot go to the Fed and say "do this". He can whine, bitch, moan, plead, etc, but does not have the authority to make demands.

As there have been Chairmen who were rather less than adept at running things properly, regardless of the pressure (or perhaps because of it), to a large extent it is all guesswork and black magic. The Fed itself does not in most cases have nearly the effect on the economy as (or at least not as quick an effect) they wish it would in many cases.

:beer:

[Shikiyanaka]

The thread was initially called "The Joys of Socialist Europe"...
Maybe I get this wrong, but IMO this in fact is a wrong assumption of what "social" means in this context. It is not Socialism, but "socialcompatible" free market economy or "socialcompatible capitalism."

This simply means that the free market economy is NOT left alone to liberally make any decision thought of as necessary concerning it's aims. The possible arbitrariness resulting and coactive from too much or even complete liberation concerning market decisions is what politics and law are to monitor. It’s like a referee looking for foul play. If no one watches, foul play is sure to happen, meaning it’s an easy way to care for ones own advantages – and in terms of a market, to aggrieve the competitors.

The system of social security – which from the beginning on was just part of this approach - is debated heatedly since years. If one enters some commoners pub in Germany, for example, and sits down near the table of the card players (usually these are the secret chiefs of the pub), one will learn some nice strategies and tactics to get rid of this "social problem." But one should expect some „vicious moronic war cry“ rather than intelligent solutions.

This is a difficult situation, or at least, nothing to coquet with.

On the other hand, I know someone who worked for an American company here in Europe. The person had serious problems making a living, because they were paid in Dollar, and had to change in Euro. As I said, nothing to coquet with at all, neither for Europe, nor any other continent/market/zivilisation/beer producing community.

[Tamdhu]

Yeah, but Europe has the greatest socialized healthcare system in the world! I mean sure, thousands upon thousands of people died there last summer, but that wasn't their fault. It was all those SUV-driving bully cowboys in the USA that did it!

[Iain]

It was the fault of a fundamentally disinterested public, a lazy government, and a general lack of concern for the elderly. There might be some people out there who take excessive glee on blaming everything on the US, but I'm not one of them, and I don't think anyone on this board is either. Trying to make your country appear like the victim of some euro-conspiracy twaddle is just silly. Yeah, SUVs are a waste of money and gasoline, but that doesn't equate with Americans being evil. Nobody's out to stick a hatchet in the back of your country (not in appreciable numbers anyway). Sure there are some things I wish your government would quit doing, but your meddling, although sometimes harmful, is never (at least not on the popular level) overtly evil. I loathe some of your policy makers with an unrequited rage, but that's true of both my home countries, and of most countries in general.

Stop acting like the world is out to 'get' you. The rest of the world has it's own problems, and it's not like we all sit in abandoned warehouses wearing little black berets and plotting the overthrow of the bourgeoisie and the horrible indignities we intend to visit upon their daughters when the revolution comes.

[Shikiyanaka]

Sorry, what is SUV???

[primeape]

A SUV is a Sports Utility Vehicle, a big, heavy monster of a car with poor fuel economy but excellent ability to travel in rugged terrain outside normal roads. They became a fad in California not so many years ago, and add considerably to Carbon Monoxide emissions of the US. I am not sure, but I think they also enjoy some kind of tax advantage in pricing.
They are also the only type of car the american car makers still can compete in, as the ordinary, more fuel efficient vehicle market belongs to the japanese and koreans, with some european limo-type Mercedes and Audi thrown in for spice. Also, british Rolls Royce is the epitome of what Cadillac wanted to become, and Porsche is the favourite toy of middle-aged men struggling to hold on to illuion of youth...A silver Porsche often matches the hair of the owner perfectly :).

Hope the first two lines help, the rest is just sarcasm getting out of hand, sorry, :D

Primeape
Vesa Varhee
Helsinki

[Richard Price]

To borrow some vernacular from Jay and Silent Bob....F*ck Europe, F*ck them in their stupid asses. The problem is that half of the people who are now "European" have no interest whatsoever in being "European". I ,for example, am English and don't care one iota whether "Europe" meets its targets for 2010. The day I class myself as being European and therefore by default the same as a frenchman, is the day I will shoot myself in the face.

[primeape]

Sorry Richard, do you mean british makes you by default equal to welsh and scottish? Co-operation does not mean becoming similar. And the main reason the French are so keen on it is to avoide being overrun by germans for a fourth time in slightly more than a century. They still consider themselves a major power, and most of the have not heard about Waterloo...:D

Just a two cent worth, that is something like 1,2 pence to you

Primeape
Vesa Varhee
Helsinki
Happy to be in the EU, on account of a much larger nex-door neighbour...

[Richard Price]

I am actually half irish myself. I appreciate what you are saying but...the English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish are very similar in one regard. We would all join together to make war on france!! Then we would go back to fighting each other. We're not like you Finns you know....spending all that time with blonde ladies in hot tubs and hitting each other with birch twigs!! :D

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by primeape
... Co-operation does not mean becoming similar. ...

Co-operation ... you mean like the French refusing to allow our beef in after Europe declared it safe?

Or the way the Spanish steal our fish?

Or the way that 10 3rd world countries want to 'co-operate' with us by taking large amounts of our money and join the EU?

Or the way the burecrats in Brussels waste our money by thinknig up stupid regulations about the bendiness of bananas and what you can call milk chocolate!

By all means have trading agreements and work permit agreements with Europe ... but we should not have to pay billions of pounds to be constantly taken from behind by Brussels!

[primeape]

Nope, just having a large area with commoncurrency and trade policies, instead of first quarreling among ourselves and then trying to compete with the US and Japan, or resisting Russian domination of Eastern Europe. Eu does waste a lot, but still the benefits are quite large.
Do you remember the mess business life used to be with different customs and taxes everywhere, every country having separate currency and differing interest rates, not to mention the various differences in product regulations?

Primeape
Vesa Varhee
Helsinki

[primeape]

That is so right, Richard, I share your feelings about the french. Up here we only take sauna to refresh between beer drinking bouts, and we are all married to blond ladies, that is true.
However, these are just innocent pastimes between rounds of fighting the russians on behalf of the Swedes....:D

Primeape
Vesa Varhee
Helsinki

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by primeape
Nope, just having a large area with commoncurrency and trade policies, ...

I don't beleive in a common currency. Not so much to do with the currency itself, but the control of it. If the UK were to join the Euro we would slowly lose control of many of our financial controls. Brussels would control our interest rates and taxes, and i for one don't fancy paying out more tax just because a bunch of 3rd world countries want in on the act.

It's perfectly possible to have mutually beneficial trade policies allowing the free flow of goods between nations without having to go down the "United States of Europe" line. I like visiting Europe, trading with Europe makes the UK more prosperous, but i don't like the idea of financially supporting Europe.

Look at the German economy ... in 5-10 years it'll be dragging the Euro down with it.

[Shikiyanaka]

Hope the first two lines help, the rest is just sarcasm getting out of hand, sorry,

No problem, quite entertaining. And everyone knows that Germans invented and still build the finest automobiles in the world :D

Concerning all that "we hate you for your 'in-fear-for-a-Europe-planet' habitus": well, first I'am the prince of the second storey in my house, then a boy of Rath (my notorious district), then of Duesseldorf, then of Nordrhein Westfalen, then of Germany, then of (geographical) Europe etc. One can see that this is a completly different approach in comparison to F*ck Europe, F*ck them in their stupid asses people. Sounds like Motörhead, only a little more uncultivated... :)

Concerning the outcome; well I do not say that vicious and brutal barbarians are not able to conquer the world ;)

[kage110]

Originally posted by Richard Price
I am actually half irish myself. I appreciate what you are saying but...the English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish are very similar in one regard. We would all join together to make war on france!! Then we would go back to fighting each other. We're not like you Finns you know....spending all that time with blonde ladies in hot tubs and hitting each other with birch twigs!! :D

Actually you might find that half the Scots and most of the Irish would be more interested in allying themselves with the French and fighting the English...but that is another story.:rolleyes: And who cares about the Welsh anyway (sorry Huw and others from that neck of the woods)!;)

Personally I would rather be Finnish; the idea of hitting on (with or without birch branches) blonde ladies in hot tubs is rather appealing!:D

[Richard Price]

The Welsh? Big who cares!! Nobody likes those nasty sheep fiddlers.

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by kage110
...

And who cares about the Welsh anyway (sorry Huw and others from that neck of the woods)!;)

...

Originally posted by Richard Price
...

The Welsh? Big who cares!! Nobody likes those nasty sheep fiddlers.

...

:p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p to you guys! :D

Although i supose i'm not a real Welshman. I was born and grew up in London to Welsh parents, so i usually say i'm English first, even though the blood that flows through me is a bastard-hybrid mix of Welsh, Norweigan & Italian.

[primeape]

Sorry, Hugh, the birch twigs are used in sauna, a hot steamy room, and not hot tubs which are a japanese invention I believe. However, both are enjoyable, the sauna especially if there is a lake and a keg of beer at suitable temperatures somewher close.

Primeape
Vesa Varhee
Helsinki
My grandmother was born in a sauna :D

[Richard Price]

Originally posted by Shikiyanaka
No problem, quite entertaining. And everyone knows that Germans invented and still build the finest automobiles in the world :D


The Germans wouldn't even have a car industry if the British Army under Major Ivan Hirst hadn't helped them save VW after the war. I think we screwed up there really. As we did with Japan. Lets hope we don't deem it neccesary to rebuild Iraq, otherwise in 40 years time we might all be driving around in Bin Laden badged vehicles.

Oh and the by the way....the Germans didn't invent the automobile. A frenchman named Etienne Lenoir patented the first pratical gas engine in Paris in 1860 and drove a car based on the design from Paris to Joinville in 1862. His one-half horse power engine had a bore of 5 inches and a 24 inch stroke. It was big and heavy and turned 100 rpm. Lenoir died broke in 1900.

So stick that in your humourless, sausage eating, sun lounger stealing pipe and smoke it.

[larsen_huw]

Sorry to get pedantic on you Rich,

But the first automobile (i.e. horseless carriage) was invented in 1769 by a Froggie, Nicolas Joseph Cugnot. He used a steam engine to power his creations.

Then in the 1830's a Scotsman called Robert Anderson created the first electric powered automobile.

You're correct that Etienne Lenoir produced the first automobile powered by an internal combustion engine (as we'd recognise today), however, he was born in Belgium, not France.

Dunno about you, but i haven't seen any Germans in that list! :D

[Richard Price]

Sorry to get pedantic on you Rich,

Thats OK...its probably the Welsh in you coming out. :saw:

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by Richard Price
Thats OK...its probably the Welsh in you coming out. :saw:

It can't be ... i don't have my velcro gloves on! :D

[Shikiyanaka]

Richard,

The Germans
we screwed up
As wedid
Lets hope we
we might all be

Result:
So stick that in your...

what a miserable line of argument! I guess it has been deeply influenced by the aimed result [So stick that blah blah] I am impressed... not at all. How could such a trauma of lacking individual identity happen? The reasoning is as logic as the immaculate conception... Take your "examination result" and keep it hidden deep deep where no-one will find it. Again in you life you failed completely, and are even proud of it... laughable! :D

Oh and the by the way....the Germans didn't invent the automobile. A frenchman named Etienne Lenoir patented the first pratical gas engine in Paris in 1860 and drove a car based on the design from Paris to Joinville in 1862.
laughable :D I don't care

But the first automobile (i.e. horseless carriage) was invented in 1769 by a Froggie, Nicolas Joseph Cugnot. He used a steam engine to power his creations.
a bit of a yawn :D

Then in the 1830's a Scotsman called Robert Anderson created the first electric powered automobile.
Huh, really? :D

Yeah, and the Schneider von Ulm (1770-1829) built the first „airoplane“...

Who needs to conjure up those loosers out of the cupboard; could be only some mortally offended island inhabitants drowning in the trauma of their technical inability. The two mentionable kinds of internal combustion engines are Diesel and Otto, period. And don't annoy me with further of such dinky and googled details. Amateurs! :D

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by Shikiyanaka
... The two mentionable kinds of internal combustion engines are Diesel and Otto, period. ...

Wankel.

How could you forget about that you stupid Wankel?

:p

[Richard Price]

Im with Huw on this one....besides have you seen this bloke and the hat he made? See the "carnival" thread for further of evidence of german "humour". :D

[kage110]

Originally posted by primeape
Sorry, Hugh, the birch twigs are used in sauna, a hot steamy room, and not hot tubs which are a japanese invention I believe. However, both are enjoyable, the sauna especially if there is a lake and a keg of beer at suitable temperatures somewher close.

Primeape
Vesa Varhee
Helsinki
My grandmother was born in a sauna :D

So long as there are blondes I am not going to complain!:D

[Chiburi]

Originally posted by Shikiyanaka
The two mentionable kinds of internal combustion engines are Diesel and Otto, period.

Huh, somebody calling my name?! I never knew I had donated my name to an engine as well. Got trash pins, ATMs, to mention a few, carrying my name but that's a fresh addition to the ever growing list! I should've copyrighted my name earlier :D

Cheers,

[Shikiyanaka]

How could you forget about that you stupid Wankel?

Quite funny with good timing, I admit. And interesting option to use soliloquy as a means of communication.

Wankel... hahaha, who cares...

And don't annoy me with further of such dinky ... details. Amateurs!

[Tamdhu]

Stop acting like the world is out to 'get' you. The rest of the world has it's own problems, and it's not like we all sit in abandoned warehouses wearing little black berets and plotting the overthrow of the bourgeoisie and the horrible indignities we intend to visit upon their daughters when the revolution comes.


Fair enough. I don't care what you folks say or do so long as you're willing to leave those annoying little black berets at home.

; )

[Iain]

Originally posted by larsen_huw


Or the way the Spanish steal our fish?


completely off topic, but those filthy Spaniards need to be put in their friggin' place. They steal British fish, they steal Canadian fish (they actually have a chunk of sovreign territort along with the French within our sea boundary allowing them to pilfer from our already depleted cod stocks). We actually came pretty close to war with Spain over that little incident.

I'm telling you, now would be the perfect time to lash out against both nations. Dubbya would at least ignore us beating on the Spaniards, and probably lend us an aircraft carrier or three (keep your sailors, ours are far superior) if we promised to knock the French down a peg or six. The French and Spanish have done nothing but spit on both Canadian and UK sovreignty and sinking some of their dirty fishing 'boats' (I use the term loosely as I doubt the ability of either nationality to navigate beyond navigating food into their mouths and wine down their gullets) would be a superb way to deliver a cost-effective slap in the face to both of them!

Grubby nations of fish thiefs and child molesters I tell you!

And as for Gibraltar... If you want it so bad, come get it you pussies! We'll see what the RMC have to say about a bunch of greasy dagos crawling all over our beloved rock!

[Shitoryu Dude]

I hate to be the one to point this out to you, but your otherwise good rant came to an end when used the word dago. Dago is a slur for Italians. Not sure what you call a Spaniard - most of the good insults for those who speak Spanish are either for Mexicans or Puerto Ricans: Spic, PR, Taco Bender, Wetback or Beaner.

Italians are known as WOPs, dagos, or guinneas, and Canadians are just called "wannabe Americans" :D

:beer:

[Bambi]

Yep, I'm all for sinking the entire spainish fishing fleet.It'd do us over here a big favour too, our naval corps (we dont have a navy) couldn't sink a pint I reckon. Actually could one anyone who can think of a reason NOT to torpedo these ****ing pirates please raise their hands??

No one??
good :D

[Shitoryu Dude]

This is the first I've heard of Spain and their fishing problems. Any news stories you can point me toward?

:beer:

[Cantarone]

Originally posted by Iain
completely off topic, but those filthy Spaniards need to be put in their friggin' place. They steal British fish, they steal Canadian fish (they actually have a chunk of sovreign territort along with the French within our sea boundary allowing them to pilfer from our already depleted cod stocks). We actually came pretty close to war with Spain over that little incident.

I'm telling you, now would be the perfect time to lash out against both nations. Dubbya would at least ignore us beating on the Spaniards, and probably lend us an aircraft carrier or three (keep your sailors, ours are far superior) if we promised to knock the French down a peg or six. The French and Spanish have done nothing but spit on both Canadian and UK sovreignty and sinking some of their dirty fishing 'boats' (I use the term loosely as I doubt the ability of either nationality to navigate beyond navigating food into their mouths and wine down their gullets) would be a superb way to deliver a cost-effective slap in the face to both of them!

Grubby nations of fish thiefs and child molesters I tell you!

And as for Gibraltar... If you want it so bad, come get it you pussies! We'll see what the RMC have to say about a bunch of greasy dagos crawling all over our beloved rock!

As a half italian and half spanish, I feel a little insulted by your comments. The fish problem is far more complex and I really doubt you have both sides information. But what astonish me is your comments about "I doubt the ability of either nationality to navigate beyond navigating food into their mouths and wine down their gullets". Even before Canada exist, spanish ships were going to all the corners of the world.
I think you can say anything you want about the fish problem without insulting a whole country, your comments about child molester goes beyond bad manners and just show your stupidity. I have some canadians friends and I have been in Canada a couple of times, and just because a canadian(or english, im not sure but it does not matter) like you behave like an abnormal, I do not think canadians are stupid or abnormal.
And now, return to the cave you belong.

[Soulend]

Must agree with Iain on the quality of sailors though. :D

Canada and the U.K. at war with Spain and France over fish..now that would be funny. Straight out of a Monty Python skit.

[Cantarone]

Soulend,
Maybe I do not share your sense of humour because I do not understand your point about spanish sailors.
Besides, I can not think a single reason why a war can be funny.
And let me say that Spain is very friendly country and do not have any major problem with any other country.

[Soulend]

Originally posted by Cantarone
Soulend,
Maybe I do not share your sense of humour because I do not understand your point about spanish sailors.
Besides, I can not think a single reason why a war can be funny.
And let me say that Spain is very friendly country and do not have any major problem with any other country.

Señor Cantarone, I believe Iain was speaking about U.S. sailors, and those are what my tongue-in-cheek comment was about. "Dubbya" is President Bush of the U.S. in his remark. We Marines have a bit of a friendly rivalry with the sailors in the U.S.

I know something of war, and no, it is not funny...however the premise of those countries going to war over fish is funny to me. I suppose a good a reason as any though..I've been sent to war for less.

I have been to Spain several times and found your country to be very friendly and wonderful each time, and I know nothing of the eptitude of Spanish sailors. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Now, please lighten up, Mr. Cantarone. You are barking up the wrong tree indeed now.

[Cantarone]

It seems I missunderstood your comment, I apologize.

[Dex]

Every country has been overfishing.

[Shitoryu Dude]

From the news we receive here in the US, the main sources of illegal and overfishing are out of Asia. However, the world's oceans are being stripped clean of fish at a rapid rate - if you want to do something about it, quit having so many damn babies. The planet cannot sustain the current population, much less the increases we are popping out every day. Zero population growth is too weenie a goal, I want to see the world's population reduced by 3/4.

And anyone who uses those huge drift nets needs to be executed.

:beer:

[Shitoryu Dude]

Back to topic:

The poor not really so poor after all (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,109386,00.html)

According to a recent study by the Heritage Foundation (search), 46 percent of the technically "poor" live in their own homes, most with more living space than the average person in Paris, London or Vienna. While 73 percent own at least one car, 30 percent own two or more, and 76 percent have air conditioning. Also, according to the study, 65 percent have a washing machine, 97 percent have a color TV and 78 percent have a DVD player or VCR.

"I think we should see it as good news and be very grateful that poverty in this country is not worse and in fact, material hardship, as we know it, is significantly lower than many people might have previously imagined," said study author Melissa Pardue (search).

The bottom line is that a very small percentage of the 35 million people considered "poor" actually suffer real material hardships.

[Dex]

In another study 46.5% of statistics were found to be !!!!!!.... :)

btw that Heritage Foundation is a pretty rightwing place. I am not saying this to shoot the messenger, just pointing it out.

[Iain]

Yeah... The Heritage foundation is packed to the gills with Neo-Con Jesus freaks.

Apparently, the separation of church and state (http://www.heritage.org/Research/AmericanFoundingandHistory/wm375.cfm) isn't really a big deal either.

Families are good, healthcare is bad, Jesus is good, free market is good, Immigrants are bad, security is good, nukes are good, civil liberties are only a suggestion... they prove it all on their website. And, I can go find you a Leftie-pinko website with all the same apparent academic rigour, all the PhDs, and all the pretty numbers from studies that will tell me the exact opposite. Not to mention that these guys are more flagrantly partisan than the RAND group.

Is it supposed to be a coincidence that they haven't published a single web article ever -as far as I can tell- that doesn't support the fundamental ideological underpinnings of the Republican party? Isn't is curious that in their "analysis" of the State of the Union address they failed to note a single error or inconsistency on the part of George Bush. 'Greater Middle East'? What the hell is that supposed to mean? What? is he making up his own teminology now? Does that include the Transcaucas? What about the Steppes? Turkey? I'm working off the top of my head, and I already came up with at least one problem -and it's a problem he repeated with regularity. His lack of qualifying statements as to exactly who the enemy bothered me. Oh, and what about all that freedom talk about. Iraq? I thought there were supposed to be weapons. Apparently now, that's been downgraded to WMD possible apparent capabilities blah blah blah... So basically he was wrong and invented a new reason whilst ignoring the old one. way to go...

I suppose it's just a confluence of the stars that led to every single study they've ever undertaken validating every single political position they hold -and unequivocally at that. Most people are right some of the time, and some people are even right most of the time, but nobody is right all of the time. Therefore, it only serves as logical that these people are conducting their studies not for the purpose of uncovering the truth, but to validate their ideology. Unfortunately for them, it makes all their scholarship suspect. Including the above mentioned article. It's a shame really, maybe they had a point, maybe some of their work even has validity, but with such an ideological taint running through their organization, one can no longer treat any of their work as academically or politically meaningful.

Oh well, another useless partisan 'think tank' to toss into the trash.

[Iain]

Ok. apologies for my little rant... I have a few friends from Spain (by blood at least) and we'll forever take shots at one another -mostly for the sake of amusement. It was supposed to be a little bit of humor (hence my intentional muddling of national slurs). Yeah, I could probably level a reasonable argument against the Spanish government for illegal overfishing of our waters, and I honestly do believe that St. Pierre- Miquelon (sp?) should probably be annexed and foreign fishing vessels be unceremoniously chased out of Canadian waters. I was simply trying to put a bit of an absurdist spin on the current raft of issues surrounding sovreignty and the exploitation of national assets. My sincere apologies if anyone took my rant seriously.

I'm sure most of the people here can attest to my generally amicable demeanor. If I take shots at someone or something, it's always in jest. Unless it's Harv. He's just evil ;)

But I still double-dog-dare the lot of you to so much as set foot on Gibraltar!

[Dex]

Could I just recommend Ian's link again: http://www.heritage.org/Research/AmericanFoundingandHistory/wm375.cfm

because it made me spit my 35 South Cabernet Sauvingon all over the monitor.

[Shitoryu Dude]

I'm no fan of the Heritage Foundation either, but data is data.

[Iain]

data is -unfortunately- not only data. It's what you make of it. Sample size, your methodology when selecting a random sample, how you determine statistical significance; they can all do a dandy job of drastically altering the apparent outcome of your research.

Now I don't have their statistical data handy, but if I did, the first thing I would do with it would be to have a statistician I know and trust go over it with a fine-toothed comb.

The people at the Heritage foundation hardly appear to be the kind of people who would be unwilling to spin their data to fit their ideological standpoint. The fact that they seem to be incapable of conducting a single study that doesn't serve to reinforce the ideological vacuum they live in is extremely worrying.

As I noted earlier, go and read the shining review of the state of the union address made by Gerorge Jr. I watched the thing, and it was riddled with inconsistencies and unqualified statements. Their willful ignorance to the fact that Dubbya wasn't sent down from heaven to save us from the brown people doesn't exactly fill me with confidence of their ability to put out anything of academic or political value. Vague threats and feigned ignorance of campaign promises do not a great orator make.

At least the people at RAND corporation are willing to bend their arguments if the data they collect does not support their hypothesis.

There is such a mystical thing as the impartial gathering of data, but I get the distinct feeling that it's an anathema to these people. I'm not just basing my argument on my own ideological bias (and I do have quite a big one) either. There's plenty of dreck on sites like GNN.com and salon.com as well, and I'll be no more kind to them than I am to these peope. I'm basing this on the clear ideological bias of these people (which they miserably try to hide in a sea of numbers and pseudo-academic drivel), and my own critical dissection of their political philosophy -which I am at least somewhat capable of analysing. FYI, their political philosophy papers are some of the most unthoughtful, rampantly biased and poorly written I have read in a long time. You'd think that politics (more specifically political economy) progressed from Mill to Bush without so much as a blip or hiccup. I don't like to pick on the handicapped, but I almost wet myself reading their article on 'multilateralism'.

[Shitoryu Dude]

That the 'poor' in the US are quite well off by most standards is something that many people have commented on over the years. They have housing, food, utilities, vehicles, home entertainment systems, furniture and clothing.

Most of the homeless are there by their own choice or actions - welfare and charity groups exist to help those who want their help.

:beer:

[Iain]

One of those little turds even had the audacity to refer to Antonio Gramsci as a 'little known Marxist'.

God... There are certain words you do not use in political discourse. Words like 'self-evident', 'decent', 'moral', and 'upright'. They don't freaking mean anything! They're totally unqualified. All these people do is use language to dance all over peoples reflexive emotional responses to certain words.

"we must make things more decent, lest our upright moral standards be corrupted!"

what the hell is 'more decent' supposed to mean?! More decent than what? What makes something more decent!? 50 years ago women voting was indecent! 100 years ago owning other people was decent!

'upright' as opposed to what? Horizontal? Perpendicular? Give me a friggin' break! Go read some Weber! The footnotes and all you lazy bastards! My senile grandfather has more intellectual rigour than these people!

And the nerve! The nerve to try and pass this crap off as scholarship!

The more I read, the more I think these people are utterly clueles...

[Shitoryu Dude]

Well, you're right on that part. Usually when I read their political essays I wonder who shove the stick up their butt and gave them a bible to read from. :laugh:

[Iain]

Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
That the 'poor' in the US are quite well off by most standards is something that many people have commented on over the years. They have housing, food, utilities, vehicles, home entertainment systems, furniture and clothing.

Most of the homeless are there by their own choice or actions - welfare and charity groups exist to help those who want their help.

:beer:

Dude, we furnished my friends house from top to bottom out of dumpsters and the back of the Sally Ann. TV, Playstation ($40), dresser, couches, you name it. He ate macaroni and crap and barely made rent. TVs and couches don't make food or provide rent control. Besides, quality of life sohuld not be gauged on crap you can scavenge out of dumpsters.

And you try spending one week on the street in a Canadian city during the winter and tell me how anyone except the mentally ill could want to live there.

People live on the streets because they're addicted to drugs or are mentally ill (usually both). You find me one homeless person without a serious problem of one kind or another, and I'll give you a cookie.

And what about all those veterans living on the streets? Sure is a wonderful way to treat people who fight for your country. What actions led them to a life of vagrancy? Went and got F%*$# in the head trying to help their country. The lesson they probably learned: Never do anything to help your country.

I said it earlier, but I'll say it again. Murderers and Rapists should get punished for their actions, not people who made innocent mistakes in their lifes. Some guy makes a bad investment, looses his house, and his wife takes the kids and leaves him. What do we do? 'Well, its 2-6 on the sidewalk for you buddy'. It shouldn't be a crime to mess up, and people shouldn't be made to pay for a single mistake for the rest of their lives. Nobody ever died because someone declared bankrupcy.

..........

See! This is a rant. A completely biased, unashamed rant. No facts, it appeals openly to emotion, and attempts to demonize the opponent. That website is a whole load of right wing this stuff. The only difference is that I'm not pretending to be scholarly. That would be a grave sin and would warrent a good boot to the groin.

Their numbers mean less than nothing. They probably cook their numbers like English people cook vegetables. I'd bet my left nut on it. So Harv, if your basing your assertion that the poor in the states live well on the work of these people -or on any other source material disgorged by a similarly dubious organization, which given the current political climate is most of them- you need to look really, really hard at their numbers before you make any positive assertions about anything.

Again, it's the same on both sides of the 'debate' (re: popular fear-mongering contest). Nobody gives a squirt of piss about ascertaining any kind of objective truth. The catch word of politics in the 21st century is 'risk managment'. It's the highest form of willful political ignorance ever concieved by man (and I do mean man... and Marget Thatcher). It denies partisan and economic pressures on policy making, and dresses it up as the only rational approach left. Is it not at all curious that 'rational' decision making under the auspices of risk management favours only those who already hold the lions share of the power in this world? It favours transnational corporations, government bureaucracies, and special interest groups, but no, it's not partisan, it's barely even political, it's 'risk management' my friend!

[Shitoryu Dude]

Rent control has been shown to raise rent prices without fail. If you want rents that can't be afforded, just implement rent control and wait a decade or two. See New York City for an example. Rent controls create slums.

:beer:

[Mekugi]

While you may be correct, I am curious to know just how many people are employed in the Military and the "educational field" that would even start to create a dent on the statistics? Unless the Military and Educational fields are truly starting to "outnumber" the private sector, there may be greater un-employment that you think.

I know a lot of European companies that are faltering in manufacturing and production (the real marrow of the economy in a lot of circumstances), and are even pulling out of Japan because of base investment monies back home. The strength of the yen has a lot to do with that of course, but if that's any indicator of what is going on in Europe, I'll not buy Euros for trade ever again and stick with USD.

-R

Originally posted by primeape
meaning that people in higher education, armed services and otherwise activated are not counted as workingPrimeape, Helsinki
Vesa Varhee
Professional economist and cynic

[dave501]

A little off topic, but I just joined. When the EU gets around to finalizing a constitution and they become "unified", will Europe only get one representative at the UN then? Or is the constitution just really a large agreement between sovereign countries?

Another side note about data, you can make it say what you want. Recently there was another scare article in US news about how the levels of PCBs in farmed fish is like 10 times greater then in free-roaming fish (salmon, I believe), giving the impression that farmed fish are dangerous. What they forgot to mention was that the levels in farmed fish is like 0.1% of a level considered harmful. (I don't remember the exact numbers.)

[Iain]

There's been rent-controlled public housing in England for as long as I can remember without creating slums. I mean some council housing isn't the best on the block, but it's far from some project.

Rent control creates slums in the US because neither the government or the landlords have the scruples to curb profit or taxation at the same time. You fix rent, but the landlord keeps on getting dinged for increased property taxes. He's unwilling to see his bottom line go tits up, so he skimps on repairs. Ergo, you get a slum. If you use fixed rent as a method of rent control, you have to fix the property tax, utilities costs, etc (or just buy the housing off the landlord and run it as public).