The World Votes

[Jouke]

www.theworldvotes.org

This site has started a very unusual innitiative, they are planning to hold a global election for the U.S. president. They argue that becuase the U.S. is the world's only remaining superpower and it's foreign policy effects all other countries, the rest of the world should have a (un-official) say in the ellection to.

What do all you yanks think of this ? Do you think the rest of the world should have a say in U.S. politics ?

[Trevor]

Why not? The U.S.A. seems to have a say in other countries politics...

[Iain]

We get a say in as much as our governments con influence US foreign policy through trade and diplomacy. The inly problem is the US influences the rest of the world right back using the same tools combined with a healthy dose of coercion. Nobody but nobody has the right to dictate the domestic policy of another country, foreign policy is -however- fair game.

[Shimura]

In reality the only reason why America today is involved in other countries internal politics is because most of the time they were asked to be, or those said nations requested some type of aid from the US. Prime example is the situation in the Balkans. The Serbs were handing the UN and the rest of NATO their a##'s until the big red one and a healthy dose of airpower made them comply to UN/NATO demands. From someone who was there and served with pride. That goes without saying that if America did stay "isolationist" as some in the early and mid 20th century had hoped, then most of Europe would either be speaking German or Russian and Asia would still be under Japan's heel.

[tmanifold]

In reality the only reason why America today is involved in other countries internal politics is because most of the time they were asked to be, or those said nations requested some type of aid from the US.

Not quite. The US has what is called a sphere of influence and many of its involvements with other governments are directly related to protecting that sphere of influence. Other times US involvement is to protect "US intrests over seas" this can be anything from oil (as in the Persian Gulf) to political causes (such as during the cold war) to helping countries that have a large support among the US population.

Their involvement in Iraqi this time was not at the request of another governement or its people. It was to protect its intrests in oil and security of US intrests (business, military) in the middle east.

The Balkans were as cut and dried as you make it seem. The serbs were killing the Albanians in Kosovo. However, the albanians were killing serbs every chance they got too. After NATO defeated the Serbs and they Albanians started coming back they started to slaughter the Serbs.

The Croatians and Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia are the same way. Niether side has any problem with genocide and killing children (including their own) if they thought they would a) get away with it b) make the other side look bad or c) take a step to their goal.

Now I am not saying that the US only interferes when they have something to gain. That is clearly not the case. Some examples off the top of my head, include Liberia, Somalia, Rwanda. However, to say that the US only involves itself when requested by others is not true. I would argue that the majority of US involvement is a reponse to some threat to their intrests. They do do a very creditable job of being the "world police" but they do look after number one first and foremost.

[Shitoryu Dude]

Great idea, and we get to vote on your leaders as well. If you don't like our vote, we get to come over there and install our choice against your will. Won't that be fun? How will the rest of the world like the USA REALLY sticking its nose into everyone else's business?

You want to vote for President? Become a citizen. Otherwise, you can just shut your piehole and quit bothering us.

Not to mention that the site itself is knee deep in obvious lies.

:beer:

[heatMiser]

No non-US citizen should be allowed vote in the US. But as long as 100 million voters have such an influence on world affairs, often at the point of a gun, I will not shut up, and said 100 million will have to answer for their decisions. (Or ignore me, but not claim that I should shut up.)

I understand perfectly why americans are sometimes harrassed about politics while abroad. They can't have such an effect on the world and ask that they be left alone when they go out into it. I wouldn't go to Spain without being prepared to talk about fisheries disputes, or Britain about Northern Ireland.

[Shitoryu Dude]

Well, there wouldn't be a huge US military and foreign policy if Europe had managed to keep its messes contained in the 20th century. After getting hauled into WWI the US's isolationist mindset took a heavy beating. Being forced into WWII while we still maintained a "mind your damned business" mindset, and then afterwards having to deal with the USSR while Europe basically stuck it's head in the sand, is a situation that was thrust upon us.

It was at that point that the US shouldered the overwhelming burden of holding off Soviet world conquest and nuclear destruction while half of Europe decided to smoke the devil's johnson and attempted to surrender in a hurry. In retrospect, we should have let Patton go ahead and wage war against Russia after Germany was defeated - it would have saved us all so much trouble for the next 45 years as Russia would have been defeated within 6 months.

So now we have bases all over the world and an economy that didn't surrender to socialism. Not our fault that we didn't succumb to massive overtaxation and neo-socialist political propaganda. We do not apologize for working harder than the rest of the world, and as for the worldwide military presence, many if not most of us would like to see it scaled back extensively. Putting troops all over the planet was a cold war tactic, but it also appears that most of the world likes having US troops in their backyard. That way they don't need to have their own army and can reap financial gains from US spending in the local economy. If anything we should be taxing other countries for the costs of our deploying troops for no good reason.

As we still have enemies and the rest of the world has shown itself to be inept and unwilling to deal with various madmen, it behooves the US to take care of said madmen by itself. Certainly can't wait for Europe to do it, we've already seen how that works out. Europe would rather just ignore it, or better yet, have someone else deal with it so they can critique it in hindsight. If you won't deal with your problems then it we will. You should have taken care of your terrorist problem decades ago quite harshly. But since you didn't, and it spread to us, we will take care of your problem. Don't worry, we don't expect Europe to have the manners to thank us, just like it didn't thank us for fighting all your wars for you for the last century.

As the world vote website deals primarily with European socialists, I think they should shut the hell up as they are the ones who led everyone to this point. The USA as the sole remaining superpower is a direct result of European screwing around and political machinations. China will soon be the other superpower - are you going to demand a voice in their "elections" as well? Didn't think so. You didn't demand a voice in the USSR's "elections" either.

That being the case, I give the following quote as a response: "Go away boy, you bother me".

:beer:

[Moko]

The Balkans were as cut and dried as you make it seem.

Want to explain to us all who or what kept the Moslem extremists out yet they flooded Chechnia?

It think you'll find you're wrong on this one. It was anything but cut and dried. That plus Clinton was involved.

[elder999]

Originally posted by Moko
Want to explain to us all who or what kept the Moslem extremists out yet they flooded Chechnia?

It think you'll find you're wrong on this one. It was anything but cut and dried. That plus Clinton was involved.

They were already in Chechnya.

For already several centuries Chechnya's traditional Islam has been represented by two Sufi trends: the Naqshbandi and the Qadiri. The best known of the naqshbandi are the brotherhoods of Yusup-Hadji and Tashu-Hadji. The most numerous quadiri brotherhood is the Kunta-Hadji Kishiev order. The relations between these two Sufi brotherhoods have traditionally been very positive. Their representatives never engaged in conflicts with each other, and never criticized the shaykhs of the other communities. While there was an element of competition inherent during election of the imam of the village mosque or Quadiri of the community, that competition never evolved into dogmatic disputes.
There is no exact information on the emergence of Vakhabism (Wahabism) in Chechnya, nor about their first preachers. Many scholars associate its appearance with the establishment of the Islamic Party in 1991. Yet, Beslan Ghentaimirov, the first head of that party had nothing to do with Vakhabism. Furthermore, according to reliable accounts, leaders of the Islamic Party, have been known to indulge in the excessive use of alcohol. Given the hostility of the Wahabists toward any use of alcohol, such behavior would indicate that the Islamic Party leadership would not meet the standards for a Vakhabite organization.

Others suggest that the appearance of Vakhabism is more correctly associated with an individual known as Adam Deniev or, by many people, simply as "One-legged Ahmed." Deniev has been a candidate member of the shaykh of Quadiri since 1995.


After creation of the main state institutions of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria at the beginning of 1997, the Vakhabites were rewarded by being able to legalize some of their military formations and to establish a base for training their military personnel led by commander Khattab. Their representatives were placed in numerous official government positions, especially those relating to the courts and public security bodies. The growing Vakhabite influence in the Maskhadov government eventually resulted in a very serious political crisis brought about by demand for curbing the Vakhabite influence. The Muftiat headed by Khadyrov demanded that President Maskhadov take decisive steps against those whom he denounced as "enemies of Islam and the Chechen nation."

At present, Muslim clergy in Chechnya are mullas and imams. Muslim clergy in Chechnya are highly educated people who were trained in Islamic institutions of Chechnya, Daghestan, Uzbekistan, Pakistan and Egypt. In addition, Chechnya has its own theological institutions and schools. There are Sunday Arab Koran schools in every village. In other words, the prestige of Islamic clergy has increased in Chechnya as they have withdrawn from politics.

Kazakhstan is an Islamic country, as well.

As for this "vote for the U.S. President" idea, while it might be interesting to know who the citizens of France or Germany would prefer to be running the U.S., it is hardly relevant.

It's just a damned silly thing.....

The rest of the world does have a say in U.S. politics: they have lobbies and political action committees here in the U.S. that contribute, in one way or another, to the campaigns of U.S. politicians, and thereby influence their decisions.

[Gene Williams]

Hell, I don't think non-property owners should vote. I damn sure don't think people who pay no taxes should vote. As to foreigners...Hell, they are so resentful of the US that they'd holler no matter what we did. If we stayed out of everywhere, they'd whine about isolationism and insensitivity. All they want is our money, anyway. No one has the political courage to do it, but next time one of our European neighbors gets in trouble, we should just do nothing...send no money, no troops, zilch. As for Canada...oh, yeah, they are that country who's main accomplishment is being just to the north of the US.

[dave501]

Hmm, then I guess we should be allowed to pick the ruler of places that will affect us, like countries in the middle east - oh, wait, we already are.

[Shitoryu Dude]

I think Afghanistan and Iraq can quite accurately be called messes that needed to be cleaned up. Since nobody else is willing to step up to the plate, that leaves us to get rid of the bad guys.

Notice how everyone else is playing nice now?

:beer:

[Iain]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hell, I don't think non-property owners should vote. I damn sure don't think people who pay no taxes should vote. As to foreigners...Hell, they are so resentful of the US that they'd holler no matter what we did. If we stayed out of everywhere, they'd whine about isolationism and insensitivity. All they want is our money, anyway. No one has the political courage to do it, but next time one of our European neighbors gets in trouble, we should just do nothing...send no money, no troops, zilch. As for Canada...oh, yeah, they are that country who's main accomplishment is being just to the north of the US.

Oh yes... We just sit in our houses and gnash our teeth, spending unending hours thinking of new ways to hate you, because you're just that friggin' important.

We're all just jealous and bitter because you've got it so much better than every other nation on the planet.

As for Canadian accomplishments, how about being a country full of relatively contented people who are on speaking terms with most nations on the planet.

When the rest of the world gets snitty, It's usually due to the stupidly paranoid mentality of your leaders. The Red Menace looks less and less menacing the more you read. England's post-war industrial output was higher than Soviet Russias. Russias conventional army was incapable of advancing much past Berlin due to the massive strain that the war put on manpower. Virtually every man of fighting age had already been mobilized. The Russians suffered 22 million casualties, and innumerable relative population loss. They were a spent force, and didn't begin mobilizing again until Stalin (a perfect foil for the US -being the only man who could match them in terms of the scope and scale of their paranoia).

Both the US and the Russians did a splendid job of dressing one another up as the enemies of civilization. They were both wrong. Of course, once the escalation starts, it becomes nigh on impossible to stop. The Russians lost, they had their illusions of evil shattered when it became apparent the West didn't want to eat them alive. The US seems unable to escape the 'Cold War' mentality. Read 'Cold Wars of the Mind' be Ken Booth. Good article.

You're problem is this whole 'us' and 'them' and 'foreigners' crap. "It's Europe's problem, let Europe fix it". That's exactly the same mentality that led England to abandon Czechoslovakia because that was a 'balkan' issue. All of a sudden, it's not just a Balkan problem is it? All of a sudden it's not just a 'European' problem. A large body of water can only save your !!! for so long.

As to the whole voting thing... Ever notice how there's a lot of blacks who don't own property? A lot of minorities and naturalized citizens don't own property? Students don't pay taxes, so I don't get to vote? I pay rent to the University, but I don't get to vote? Why don't you just buy a top hat and tails, a cotton ginny, build a time machine and go back where you belong. I don't call people politically retarded dinosaurs unless they deserve it...

Oh, you poor poor misuderstood country... Aparently pissy moaning isn't restricted to the left-wing hippies any more.

[Jody Holeton]

Iain,

America has an electorial college DECIDE who becomes president.

American presidents are already influenced by foreign powers. Al Gore and the Chinese? Geoger Bush Sr. and his special speech engagements in Japan?

Percieved violence and being held responsible for ones actions makes people polite.

Saddam was made an example. America should nuke North Korea, the Saudis and anyone else who steps up to the plate.

I sat in a room full of Koreans the other day talking about how violent America is. They still MINE their beaches here, every young Korean male has mandatory military service and their war with the NORTH (insert the atrocities here) has been going on for 50 years.
The thing with Saddam breaking treaties went on for how many years?
Screw em, bring out the nukes.

Screw the world, pull the troops back, have America be for America just like NATIONALISTIC Japan, Korea, Taiwan, China, France,
etc.
etc.
etc.

BTW Look what the communists did to China, Russia, North Korea, and Cuba....
Ask the Chinese (Cubans, Russians, East Germansd, etc.) why they fled their country.
2 words "cultural revolution"
How many kids would it take to parade you through the street?
Beat you?
Burn your books?

[Exorcist_Fist]

Last I heard there are more Irish in the US than in Ireland. The world DOES vote in the US.

[Jody Holeton]

Everyone comes to the US!

They flock to Ireland? Japan? Korea?

[tb055]

You should have taken care of your terrorist problem decades ago quite harshly. But since you didn't, and it spread to us, we will take care of your problem. Don't worry, we don't expect Europe to have the manners to thank us, just like it didn't thank us for fighting all your wars for you for the last century.

You're full of it Harvey Moul, US citizens have funded the terrorists in the UK for years. Yeah, thanks for funding the IRA and the murder of British civiliians.

And how many battles did the US take part in WWI? I believe it was one. How much of the fighting in WWII, was done by the Russians, British and Commonwealth soliders? Your lot couldn't even turn up in time :P

[Jack B]

You talk like Europe was the only theatre. Also, fighting in battles you lose is not a great accomplishment... ;)

Harvey, what do you think about limiting the vote to people who are not accepting public assistance? That would take care of the famous quote about democracies failing as soon as the people realize they can "vote themselves largesse from the public treasury". Would that constitute a poll tax, since only those who pay get to play? Would it violate Equal Protection for those minorities which have disproportional representation amongst Welfare recipients? I thought Clinton reformed welfare so nobody would be on it for more than two years?

[Shitoryu Dude]

Welfare reform did take care of a good deal of chronic deadbeats and saved one hell of a lot of cash in the process, but there are many forms of public assistance to be drained for cash.

While there are a great many things to be said about limiting voting to only those who own property or something of that nature, where does it stop? It is a damned steep slippery slope that is grossly unfair - the actions of the government affect all citizens, so all citizens have a say in their govenment. Those on the bottom who leech off of others will always be a minority - the problem is the social activists who want those people to have creature comforts that they haven't earned.

:beer:

[dave501]

What about felons? The dems say gore would have won easily if the guys in prison would have been allowed to vote.And with those out of prison it would have been a lansdslide. But those nasty republicans think that people who do things seriously wrong should be seriously punished.

[Shitoryu Dude]

Felons lose many of their rights - voting included. After you get your butt out of prison you can always petition to have them restored.

:beer:

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hell, I don't think non-property owners should vote.
Easy for you to say in dirt cheap Georgia try buying property in New York City or Los Angeles. Where i live condos (read re-marketed apartments ) go for 600,000. And i don't live in posh places like Brentwood, or Beverly Hills.

[Maro]

There are a lot of real Tolerant people in this Forum!

:(

[elder999]

Originally posted by Maro
There are a lot of real Tolerant people in this Forum!

:(

Ohhh, elucidate upon this for us, please.

While I am probably normally a known font of all sorts of tolerance, I will say that there are some things that should not be tolerated, so, please, clarify exactly what you meant by that.

[Maro]

I like to come and read the threads here but there is a real trend to go completely over the top with insults and jingoism when people don't like what is posted.

[elder999]

Originally posted by Maro
I like to come and read the threads here but there is a real trend to go completely over the top with insults and jingoism when people don't like what is posted.

...an example on this thread being?

[Maro]

"You should have taken care of your terrorist problem decades ago quite harshly. But since you didn't, and it spread to us, we will take care of your problem. Don't worry, we don't expect Europe to have the manners to thank us, just like it didn't thank us for fighting all your wars for you for the last century"

Nice

[Shitoryu Dude]

It's hardly "jingoism" (cripes, what an overused and worthless word, used only by those without a good argument) when it is an accurate reflection of history.

:beer:

[Maro]

Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
It's hardly "jingoism" (cripes, what an overused and worthless word, used only by those without a good argument) when it is an accurate reflection of history.

:beer:

Do you really think that Europe never thanked America?

[Gene Williams]

Originally posted by shinbushi
Easy for you to say in dirt cheap Georgia try buying property in New York City or Los Angeles. Where i live condos (read re-marketed apartments ) go for 600,000. And i don't live in posh places like Brentwood, or Beverly Hills.

So, move...oh, by the way, there is property in coastal Georgia and the north Georgia mountains that is every bit as pricey as your flaky-shaky California left coast dirt...and more valuable.

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
So, move...oh, by the way, there is property in coastal Georgia and the north Georgia mountains that is every bit as pricey as your flaky-shaky California left coast dirt...and more valuable.
Yeah but who wants to live in place like the South or the Mid-West? :rolleyes:
Plus my and my wife's business is here.

[Shitoryu Dude]

I think that for the most part the "thanks" the US received from Europe was lip service from many of those that the US liberated from the Nazis. France certainly was resentful that we once again had to save their !!!. Considering the speed in which western Europe embraced socialism I think at times we just should have let Hitler keep what he got. He would have self destructed soon enough all on his own.

:beer:

[Iain]

Russia saved us from the Nazis. They pinned down five times as many divisions as the rest of the allies combined. The US poured a lot of money into Europe after the war, for which I'm sure the Germans are eternally greatful. On the other hand, the US made a lot of money selling petroleum products, rubber, heavy machinery and a whole lot of other things they wouldn't have been able to start a war without. Over 50% of Junkers was owned by a subsidiary of General Motors, who funnelled money out of Nazi Germany through a series of Swiss intermediaries. Way to kill your own citizens for money. I shouldn't really point fingers (everyone was complicit in the Nazi rise to power) but I get tired listening to tales of how the unimpeachable American Knights in shining armour swept in and saved the rest of us.

Let's not forget that the US remained relatively untouched by WWII. Infrastructure completely intact, and a massivs stimulation of industry thanks to shrewd investing and the boons of war economy. You made a killing during the war, so excuse me for not falling on my face and grovelling.

Two totalitarian superpowers beating each other senseless, the winner gets the spoils. Hardly glamorous.

Or how about all that heavy machinery Ford sold to Russia? The commies were absolutely in love with Fordism.

In closing, thanks for having the decency to turn up to help us all to stop a tyrant, and for helping the world clean up the mess we all made. But if you want to be using all that 'we' and 'us' language, you should probably substitute 'USSR' for 'US' in your rant.

[Shitoryu Dude]

And if Europe had taken care of its own messes from the start it would have turned out much differently. Still putting down tin-pot, genocidal tyrants within the last decade - how have things really changed?

:beer:

[Exorcist_Fist]

Welcome to the world of Realpolitik baby. When it comes to nation states, there are no morals, and everyone's got blood on their hands. If one nation just seems so much bloodier than everyone else, it probably means they are winning, because the losers always seem to find the time to wash up.