Using E-Budo - names, credentials, purpose...

[Tripitaka of AA]

As I understand it, the Members' Lounge (and the Men's Room) notwithstanding, E-Budo is a resource, a forum, a place to question and answer on the topics related to .... Budo!

Now this amazing place has some very active, verbose and willing contributors - who know a little, and some restrained, reserved and reticent contributors - who know more in their little finger than half the rest put together. The balance between those seeking knowledge and those who possess, is helped by the natural selection rules, which mean that there are far more posters who are "seeking", than there are posters who have "attained". This particular site seems to benefit from a lack of self-proclaimed Gurus and Super-GrandMasters, who only think that they know.

Now earlier today, I read a thread (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24285) started by Dave Lowry, in which he has shown a reply that he gave to an over-enthusiastic, head-in-the-clouds, prospective student. The reply is a brilliant piece of prose, and if a little harsh in places, is a must-read tonic for those who allow the Internet/Hollywood fantasy of Budo take over their ability to behave in the REAL world. I certainly recommend it.

However, it had this bit;

"Were it possible to winnow the correspondence of those here at e-budo who have, say, twenty years or more experience in a legitimate, serious budo, you would find the following fact emerges:

All of us have names. Real names. The ones we use to sign our contributions here. Not ludicrous avatars like “Cyber-samurai,” “Kensei,” or “Dharma-dude.” Or “Follower of the Four Winds.” You would find too, that we do not decorate our signatures with epigrams and solecisms. We do not bedeck our correspondence with juvenile smiley-face doo-dads more appropriate to remarking the scholarly accomplishments of primary schoolers. That is because we are adults, less interested in getting attention and more concerned with having ideas worthwhile to say and share and question. "



This suggests that anyone who has more than 20 years experience of MA, would not want to have a nickname, an Avatar, or make use of smileys/emoticons.

I have way less credentials than almost anyone on this board (5 years of serious training, then 15 years of pining for it - don't ask, long story) and I regularly use smileys and make lighthearted and possibly juvenile posts. But I would be interested to hear from some serious E-Budoka, do you think Mr Lowry is right to limit his involvement in E-Budo to the written word alone. Don't the embelishments offered by avatar/smiley/sig add to the prevailing atmosphere of positive sharing and good will between Martial artists. Is it wrong to make use of modern tools when constructing a message?


I would assume that Mr Lowry is referring in the main to posts and threads on the individual fora, where serious question and answer is the norm. Posts in the lounge are encouraged, I believe, to be "kick off your tabi" style on subjects as diverse as our backgrounds and locations.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Personnal I think alot of problems in the martial arts is that people take themselves too seriously sometimes...

Hell, you couldn't meet someone more chilled out and fun in real life ;)

Cheers

[Richard Price]

Unfortunately by redressing the poor youth in question in this way, Mr Lowry has shown himself to be at the other end of the MA stereotype spectrum...the wise old master. Which is just as ridiculous in my opinion...FWIW. Also part of Dave's advice to the youth in question was that he should admire "Conservatives, businessmen and people who hold religious faith dear". Like who Dave...you? It takes many kinds of material to build a solid house you know. Another nugget was that people who make a living with an Electric guitar should be held in contempt! For what, pushing the bounds of music? Bach, Beethoven et al (who Mr. Lowry asserts that the kid should be listening to) were merely the rock stars of their day and were far from conservative at the time. I wouldn't train with Dave if he were the last wise old master on the planet...he sounds like an intolerant old fuddy-duddy (never used that word before - I like it!!). Reminds me of dear old Meik Skoss and his insistence that anyone with tattoos would never be trained in his dojo. He also insults the SCA (nothing wrong with that in itself - they are odd) yet seems blissfully unaware that he is an anachronism himself, albeit an uncreative one.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

I've just read the whole thread through and realised alot of things where he's coming from.

Alot of online forums do have these huge picture sigs and I don't think anyone on this board has a really really silly name.

But I think it's someone taking the mick anyway, a troll has got his E-mail address and I don't think he's reslised someone is playing a prank on him.

Ever that or there are some really strange people out there!

Cheers

[G. Zepeda]

Monkey,
You're just miffed you never set your alarm clock to Bach, me I like to wake to the soothing sounds of Gregorian Chants.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by G. Zepeda
Monkey,
You're just miffed you never set your alarm clock to Bach, me I like to wake to the soothing sounds of Gregorian Chants.

Damn...If only I had my Panpipe Moods CD....

I usually wake up to the Jackson 5 on my radio alarm clock but once it was tuned to Classic FM and I woke up to Tubular Bells! Scared the Be-Jesus out of us, never gotten out of my bed quicker ;)

Cheers

[Geoff]

OK, Mr. Lowry was harsh. Martial arts training can be severe, too. From my teaching experience (as a high school, not MA, teacher) I find myself agreeing with both Mr. Lowry's words and sentiment. We live in an age of priviledge and our children suffer for it. When I was a high school student I didn't sit for three hours a day in study hall, I didn't text message my friends during class and I didn't expect every adult that I met to be my friend. In fact, I am probably the better for seeeing my teachers as superiors rather than peers. It allowed me to learn from their experience and knowledge rather than scrutinize their decisions and personalities.

There is, in fact, a rather ludicrous debate going on right now in the National Education Association's monthly magazine on the merits of permitting mobile phones in school. It amazes me to think that any teacher would find this acceptable, yet I have colleagues who argue that "technical literacy" with cell phones, graphing calculators, etc. is more important that "content literacy" with academic material. This, in my opinion, is an example of just how far we have let our expectations of our young people slide.

In one of my classes I recently made the argument that students need to practice reading as training for my class (geography) just as they would practice running in preparation for whatever sport they compete in. As this argument fell on deaf ears I looked at the 20-odd students in the room and realized that not only were many functionally illiterate, but most had never experienced the rigors of dry-land training for sports either. Childhood illiteracy and childhood obesity stalk the halls of our high school campuses today and we facilitate their spread.

It seems to me that we consistently fail to educate students' minds and bodies and then criticize those who point out the inadequacy and implications of our folly. Was Mr. Lowry's message sharp? Probably, but maybe its tone will make the kid angry, embarassed or hurt enough to go out and make some changes in his life. I don't think a friendly smile and a pep talk would have the same effect.

Geoff Wingard

[kage110]

Originally posted by Geoff
snip

Don't usually do this but...I just have to post and say that I agree 100%. My mother is a teacher and I don't think she would disagree with a thing you have said, Geoff.

As to Mr Lowry's post; I don't know if I agree with every word of the content of the message but the sentiment behind it - 100% again. Put yourselves in the position of Mr Lowry where every half-wit with a computer has access to him and ask yourselves how many stupid messages you would have to receive before you blow a gasket? People say that you should just ask someone if you have access to them and while I agree with that to a certain extent (I do not consider anyone to be superior to me as a human being and so expect to be able to speak civilly with everyone I meet and expect them to respond likewise) I would be hesitant to approach anyone of Mr Lowry's standing with some half-baked question about MA. If I had done some research and couldn't find the answers I am looking for then you can be sure that I wouldn't hesitate to ask Mr Lowry (or other knowledgeable individual) a, hopefully, intelligent and informed question.

I am fortunate that I am not knowledgeable enough about anything so don't have people wasting my time by asking stupid questions. My time is valuable, so is Mr Lowry's and so is everyone else's - or at least it should be for those with an IQ higher than room temperature.

[Bod]

Wise old masters have to ask grasshoppers how to operate the VCR, so it's not surprising they can't figure out how smilies and sigs work.

Mind you I never use smilies. There is nothing worse than to read a post by some right wing fool, who insists on backing up his more circular arguments with the patronising wink smiley, in pretty much the same way as Bush uses his smirk.

[Richard Price]

I'm 100% behind the sentiment of the original missive...where I draw the line is associating those values with conservatism and religion. I think that discipline for the young is a vital component of every upbringing and that a Playstation 2 as a babysitting device is a very poor substitute for parental influence. And cellphones in schools? I'm pretty disappointed that they allow calculators!

[Bod]

It seems that everyone who never did any proper mathematics thinks that calculators are bad.

There is more to life than arithmetic.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Bod
It seems that everyone who never did any proper mathematics thinks that calculators are bad.

There is more to life than arithmetic.

It's just part of evolution I spose...

Why don't we stop using computers and communicate by riding on horse back to deliver messages? But then again I agree with Rich that it has it's time and place,and kids don't need mobile phones in schools, it's just them trying to look 'cool'...plus they'll just get stolen.

[David T Anderson]

Dave Lowry hit the nail on the head, as he usually does.

As someone who began in a martial art at an advanced age, one of the things I have come to appreciate is that MA should be regarded as an _adult_ activity...something done by adults with adults. True, teens and younger kids can benefit a great deal from training, but the point of it all should be to help them _become_ adults, and not to simply help them while away their adolescent time and energy, or give them an anchor for their fantasy life.

The fact that a great deal of childish amusement seems to involve the martial arts in some way is regrettable and is leading a lot of immature people down the wrong path entirely. I suppose the letter Mr. Lowry was answering might have been a troll...but it's easy to find rubbish almost as silly on E-Budo and other boards, so I don't think it's a stretch for him to answer as he has.

Mr. Lowry's piece is a very graphic signpost pointing the right direction. Whether or not the message gets to the right destination is another question.

[Iain]

Well, Dave was clearly blowing off some steam. I'd say he had some good advice for the kid, but it was tinged with a heavy dose of personal prostletysing (sp). I don't really think Jesus, buisnessmen, and my mom are necessarily contingent factors in being a decent, level-headed human being. Fuddy-duddy is a pretty good word, but he's a well meaning and generally well behaved one. Nothing wrong with blowing some steam off, especially when it's in the right direction.

[Shimura]

I would have to agree, for the most part, with what Dave said. Granted though it was a bit harsh in some regards, we all know that sometimes the best medicine tastes like sh$$t. I really would like to comment on what my fellow Mainer Geoff had to say in regards to education. His point on functional illiteracy is on the money. I'm currently going to school fulltime and I work at a University, so I get to see a pretty good cross section of people in the education realm. One of the examples that is related to Geoff's comment, and sticks in my head, is this incident we have happen in regards to the library elevator.

I was on duty that day in dispatch when we recieved a call that the elevator is under repair until further notice, and that a sign would be posted indicating this. Of course the sign ws posted, but this stop one of the students ( a sophmore in college mind you) from not happening to read or see the sign. Obviously he got in the elevator, and low and behold couldn't get out. If you can't read a sign, then what good is a degree in anything. Basically the problem with education as I see it in America is a turning away from the basics such as reading, writing etc. and putting more of our efforts in sports and the like. It's just like budo, if you don't go back and refresh on your basics and understand them thoroughly, then you'll never "truly" improve your ability.

[Shitoryu Dude]

I'll take on the "calculators are bad" thing. They are bad. You should only be allowed to use a calculator to do math that you already have shown repeatedly that you comprehend and can work properly without the electronic aid.

I see kids anymore who use a calculator for everything but can't actually do anything more complicated than simple multiplication tables (at best) on their own. They don't actually comprehend the math that they are doing and are at best glorified button pushers.

I have no problem with someone using a calculator to perform something they can already do without the help where the calculator simply makes it faster and easier to do. Do you want your next building or bridge designed by someone who truly doesn't understand calculus, but just plays "monkey see - monkey do" with a $500 electronic toy? I want them to KNOW what the hell they are doing.

:beer:

[Mekugi]

Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
This suggests that anyone who has more than 20 years experience of MA, would not want to have a nickname, an Avatar, or make use of smileys/emoticons.

Rubbish. I have 'port near 20 year experience- my NICKNAME is "Russ". Everyone calls me Russ or Russchan. My real name is different, however I go by my middle name in daily life. My avatar is my wife's family Kamon- which I am extremely proud of seeing that it is 5 generations old in the family business of carpentry (her ancestors are in old books about shinto carpentry as well). Mekugi is the name of a newsletter I run. This has been my nickname online for AGES. I use smileys and emoticons when corresponding to people I know because it is cute and funny and they like it. :p

Furthermore, do a great deal of correspondance for a couple of groups out here in Japan and I have to act as a professional even when responding to nonsense. If I replied to a letter like that, I would get a quick kick in the butt. This, by no means, is a manner to behave in when when acting as an official voice for your group to the public- and frankly most of the time these letters are aimed at getting your goat in the firstplace.


I can truly understand the sentiment there, and I get what he is trying to say. In fact I totally support MOST of what he is saying. Yet, even in the face of diversity using restraint and professionalism prevails, as that is the mature thing to do. Did this letter really help this person?

-Russ

[Sharp Phil]

I am not a traditionalist Budoka -- but I love Mr. Lowry's writing. He says what he believes, is often demonstrably right, knows his field well, and makes no apologies for believing as he does. He does not make false or insincere gestures of inclusion; his essay commenting that visitors should be unwelcome in a traditional dojo exemplified this purity of attitude.

I think one of the reasons his comments can be viewed as harsh is that, political correctness and hurt feelings aside, he is right, at least in part and despite many exceptions.

[Jerry Johnson]

Per kids using calculators. - in that warm drone voice that makes long deep pauses of Garrison Keillor

My Grandmother use to admonish me and my teachers for not being able to recite Keats, Poe, and Shakespeare etc. as she did in school. This has value, in retention, especially in her day. She was born in the late 1890's. She had a one hell of a memory, and could memorize things and numbers almost instantly and wouldn't forget them. Clearly, a skill need in her time.

My Father learned to use a slide rule, an important tool in his day. I learned math old school as they say. I didn't use a slide rule ( it just became obsolete, no longer taught), did I use a calculator. it was a piece of paper and a pencil, and that was my computer and type writer as well. Then as I got older and I noticed those younger then being technologically savvy, and how society demanded such skills.

When I was taking a job related course many years latter, the class required a calculator. I didn't have one, all I had was my head, a pencil, and the words of Grandmother's admonishment that we as kids couldn't recite Shakespeare or Poe. After my first test that I failed, I realize the world had changed. For those with calculators it took mire minutes complete the test. Where is took me twice that with paper and pencil, and I was unable to finish in the in the allotted time.

I wasn't rewarded for my ability to do math old school. I was punished for the not knowing how to use a calculator. For kids today, mathematical functions are simply pressing keys on a calculator. This is what society wants from kids. They want quick solutions, and will nothing to do with the valuable method of working it out on paper. ( Now a bit of Andy Rooney's voice of 60 mins) Society wants dumb kids. They aren't concerned if kid can't do math without a calculator. They just want the kid to do the job and move on to the next class. And isn't that how society is. Isn't everything about updating to the next version. We as a society don't care how we get there as long as we get there the latest and newest way we can. Isn't that what is important!

With this said, I realized as long as kids are in sync with society's expectations and demands not knowing how to tie a shoe isn't really that important, as long as we are making shoes without laces.

[Jerry Johnson]

Per Mr. Lowry's post,


I once commented in light opposition on the context of a piece written by Mr. Lowry concerning Koryu Snobbery. I was flambéed by members. It was as if I defiled God himself that they showed no mercy. This was when E-budo was young, and I removed my post. I was marked ever since. Point of this is, I like E-budo more now then in the past.


Mr. Lowry for what ever reason felt to roast the poster, I don't know. He may have felt the poster was trolling, mocking, etc. And returned in kind. Or, was taking a Japanese admonishing approach and providing direction that simply became a Jackson boob-something intended that went off badly. What I find refreshing is the variety of poster's opinions. I find refreshing void of frat and over praising/protective mentality that of previous past posters. To them Mr. Lowry was walking on water. They worshiped him, pathetically kissing up to his celebrity at any opportunity to get in his favor and be recognized. It was less important to comprehending what he was saying. But recently, this isn't the case. This and other thread has been rather independent and of a bold tapestry of opinions which have been presented, thus making E-budo much more refreshing and real, and less exclusive.

[Steven Malanosk]

Awhile back Dave Lowery asked me what I meant when I referred to him as a pedantic.

This thread is a perfect example of what I mean.

Is he correct in what he said?

Indeed.

Accuracy = Ippon!

Bedside manner = waza ari.


Pedantisism = NoKachi!

Dave is to KoRyu, as Joe Lewis is to KickBoxing.

Knows his shitahaku

But politically correct?

Aaaaw hell, what is politically correct anymore anyway?

Speaking of knowing your shitahaku:

http://home.pacbell.net/diana_do/knowjack.htm

[monkeyboy_ssj]

That's the problem with bringing Martial arts to the masses.

Alot of movies have martial arts in these days and it entertains many a youth which in turn gets them interested.

I think that you forget that most people when they were young and starting martial arts, asked silly questions because they didn't know the answers.

It's just the way society has brought up the younger people in the west these days.

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
...

Do you want your next building or bridge designed by someone who truly doesn't understand calculus, but just plays "monkey see - monkey do" with a $500 electronic toy? I want them to KNOW what the hell they are doing.

...

Harvey,

You wanting me to be able to use log tables inside out before i can design a bridge?

Sorry, but i'd much rather just hit the little LOG button on my calculator.

Anyways, if i were to design a bridge from first principals it would take roughly 3-4 times as long as using computer software, and i would be more likely to make numberical errors.

However, i do agree that calculators are too prevelent. Mental arithmatic is a lost art, and Mathematical Theory is dead in the water!