making shikage-ryu fukuro shinai

[sven beulke]

Hello,
i am searching for information about shinkage-ryu fukuro shinai and fukuro shinai of other koryu like kashima-shin-ryu or maniwa-nen-ryu. I build a pair of shinai based on the description in Tadashige Watanbes book "Shinkage-ryu sword techniques". Building them was piece of cake but i have the feeling they are much stiffer than the shinai used in the book cause in some pics they look very flexible. Anyone has further information about the right way to split the bamboo and the way the leathercord at the handle is tied . I attached a pic of one of my shinai.
Regards!

[paul manogue]

sven,
Your shinaui looks good, if it seems too stiff it is probably just because it is new.

In our branch of Yagyu we split twice for about 3/4 (4 pieces), 4 spilts to half way (8 pieces) and 8 spilts to the end (16 pieces), I sometimes will reinforce the spilt end with dental floss to prevent the spit from continuing.

As for the handle wrap, ours uses either a flat leather strap from the fukuro, with a left turn thread through pattern, before laquer, or a thin narrow portion rom the fukuro, wrapped over with cord whip lash style.

[sven beulke]

Paul,
thanks for the information! The description from Watanabes book only leads to 8 Segments! Could be a reason for the stiffness. How do you laquer the shinai? Could you please post some detailed pics of your shinai? That would help a lot.
Did you only practice kata with the shinai or do you use them for shiai too? I heard some branch of Shinkage-ryu use red laquered kote. Ever heard something like that?
Regards

[paul manogue]

Sven

Sorry, no digital camera at this time, but we use red laquer for the shinai, it makes the shinai more durable, and causes less friction so the shinai act more like a blade. We do spar with the shinai also, however this is not an official part of our curriculum, just a training supplement.
The kote you mention I have seen, but not laquered, they tend to be made of deer hide, and are quite costly, they also closely resemble lacrosse gloves, each finger is individual and jointed.

Hope tis helps, sorry about the pictures.

[sven beulke]

Hello Paul,
here is a pic of my latest set of shinai. This time split sixteen times. I am very pleased with the result. Thanks for your help. They are not laquered, the leather looks a bit like the red laquer i seen on some photos. What kind of laquer do you use and do you laquer before or after lacing?
Regards

[ghp]

Sven,

Nice looking fukuroshinai! You certainly have a talent. Please tell us about your hobby -- how long does it take you to make one; what type and thickness of leather, etc.?

Excellent!!

--Guy

[poryu]

HI

where do you get your bamboo

all the bamboo I have got in the uk has been too dry and keeps breaking when i test the shinai.

[warren33]

Hello,

First off I should say that those shinai look very good indeed :)


I build a pair of shinai based on the description in Tadashige Watanbes book "Shinkage-ryu sword techniques".

There appear to be two volumes of this book, am I correct in assuming that the instructions are in Vol.1? The second book seems relatively easy to get but the first is much more difficult to find.

For those who’d like to try their hand at making these, would anyone please be able to supply the details or point us in the right direction?



warren wise

[paul manogue]

Sven,
Really nice looking shinai!!

We lacquer them after lacing, but before tying to the tsuka, so only one side of the handle ribbon has lacquer.
I have experrimented with a few kinds and like the reddish brown polyeurathane best so far.

Are you training Yagyu ryu in Europe, or is this for another art?

For those reading thinking about making their own.

Use light leather, deer or cow, not belt leather (too heavy)
Use great care when splitting the bamboo.
Do not soak the leather in lacquer rather give it a few thin coats.
And remember, these are ok for sparring but will degrade much faster this way, they are meant for safe training under controlled conditions.

[sven beulke]

Paul,
Thanks again for the information, splitting it sixteen times was the breakthrough. I am not practicing shinkage-ryu. The only true koryu located in germany is a branch of Kashima-Shin-Ryu in Frankfurt. Far away from me javascript:smilie(':(')! I train iaido and jodo. Two years ago i was surfing the net and found samuraisports.com. Yes, thats a bad budo site but i was both disgusted and thrilled by the idea to do shiai without a armor and restricted targetzones. I start making my own fullcontact swords using glassfiber and foam padding. They function quit well but are heavy and have a nasty whiplash effect .Very painfull!!! I got the Shinkage book for a while cause i am collecting material for a book in german about koryu . So i start thinking about fukuro-shinai. Last summer, to answer your question Richard,when i was on the job as a bikemessenger i saw a guy with two bamboo rods going down the street. I asked him where he gets the stuff from. A petshop, very close to where i live !!! Next day i got my bamboo. I had also problems with some rods. Not sturdy and flexible enough. Richard, try get bamboo with a bright colour, like the bamboo on the pics. Dont take bamboo of darker colour and the rod schold not have any cracks (a sign that it is too dry). Be picky! Gardening center mostly order large quantities that lie around very long. Try to find small shops. But my source is burnt out now, just crappy bamboo. I am trying too kontakt a guy in Bremen who is making shakuhachi and didgeridoo from bamboo. Try too find someone like this in you area! Guy, take a soft leather with a thickness of 1,5 to 2mm (sorry i am metric!). Dont use suede like Bujin. The surface should be smooth and durable . Warren, you find more information in this thread than in Watanabes book! No kidding. I am thinking about posting something like a workshop. I still have enough bamboo for a kodachi and i will take some pics making it. Making a fukuro shinai is simple and you dont need talent (thanks Guy!javascript:smilie(':rolleyes:')) but some basic tools, leather and bamboo, patience and knowhow. I will try to provide the last.
Thanks for your replies!:)

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by sven beulke
...Making a fukuro shinai is simple and you dont need talent (thanks Guy!(:rolleyes:) but some basic tools, leather and bamboo, patience and knowhow.
Don't sell yourself short. Those are some very nice looking pieces.

One suggestion: make the strips for the "tsukaito" wider so they will lay flat. Two to three times the width of the sleeve lacing. Then taper the tsukaito just where it will tie to the sleeve lacing. This gives a better feel to the grip, closer to a katana.

[sven beulke]

Hello Paul,
thanks, but i am already thinking about making the lace at the handle wider. I use the tool to cut the laces for the shinai to cut tsukaito for wrapping tsuka of iaito. I just dont find the time yet to make a tool to cut wider laces. How to make such a tool?
Simple:
For the lace of the fukuro for example i take the upper part of a chopstick!!. Take two small cutterblades (the typ where you can break the tip off) and fix them with a lot of good selfglueing tape at the "handle". Now You can cut laces from leather like writing with a pencil on it ( of cause with more pressure!) ! Dont worry of curves, a soft leather, even when cut from a small round piece of leather will look like a straight lace. For example you can cut almost 16m of tsukaito (9mm wide) from 50cmx50cm piece of leather! Its by far the cheapest way to get good quality tsukaito for your Iaito.
I think most of you think cutting straight laces is the biggest problem when making tsukaito, but not anymore.
Regards
;)

[sven beulke]

The Last post should start with "Hello Owen" !
Hello you all!

[sven beulke]

I just made a pic of the tools i use to cut laces. Easy to make. Just fix the blades exact as possible.

[sven beulke]

I just made a pic of the tools i use to cut laces. Easy to make. Just fix the blades exact as possible.
Regards

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by sven beulke
The Last post should start with "Hello Owen"
Please, call me Brian. When I hear (or read) "Mr. Owens" and similar, I always think someone is talking about my late father. :)

I actually have a lace cutting tool, a handle with slots of various depths on one side that you just pull along the side of the leather sheet. It takes some pratice to get really long strips, but once you get the angles right it's a cinch.

If I can find out the brand name, price, and source (mine was given to me) I'll post it here.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by warren33
...There appear to be two volumes of this book, am I correct in assuming that the instructions are in Vol.1? The second book seems relatively easy to get but the first is much more difficult to find...
Volume 1 doesn't really contain instructions for making hikihada shinai; just a description, photo, and measurments for that ryu's standard shinai.
Originally posted by warren33
...For those who’d like to try their hand at making these, would anyone please be able to supply the details or point us in the right direction?...
The photos here are as good as the ones in the book. Here are the measurments:

Adult shinai: blade 97 - 100cm, hilt 21.2cm
Medium shinai: blade 75.75cm, hilt 19cm (book says "9" but that's a misprint)
Small shinai: blade 53cm, hilt 12cm
Child's shinai: blade 85cm, hilt 20cm (my hilt figure -- book doesn't say.)

For the leather "sleeve" cut a piece of material several centimetres longer than the listed blade length, because you partially lace one end then turn it inside out to form the tip. The width is the diameter of the bamboo plus the overlap distance. Mine has a 3cm overlap, with a 1cm lace inset 1cm from the edge.

If you can't find a local source of bamboo, you used to be able to order a "replacement" from Bujin Design for $25.00 and add your own leather. The site also had some pictures IIR (Ihaven't looked there recently).

HTH.

[Earl Hartman]

Nice looking shinai.

To help prevent the shinai from breaking, before using it you should, insofar as possible, round the edges of each of the slats with a piece of broken glass and treat the slats with either oil or wax, just as you would the slats of a regular kendo sinai.

[sven beulke]

Hello,
got some time to share some of my thoughts why its usefull to use fukuro shinai in shinbudo. I am practice iaido and jodo, im my opinion the best choice for someone who is primary intrested in koryu and whant to practice a budo when no serious koryu is in the area. Sometimes in my club we have discussions about how effectiv iai or kendo (there is also kendo in my club) is in real combat. The guys in my club dont know much about the history of koryubujutsu cause there is not a single volume about the topic in german.A hobby of mine is collecting and studying literature on the topic. I know there are iaidoka thinking they will look good in a swordfight and kendoka thinking they are combatready. I recommend a iaidoka thinking he is a combatready swordsman the following:
Take a pair of fukuro shinai and find a skilled kendoka and fight with him. I did, of but never thought i am combatready . My iai-teacher is also 3.dan kendo. It was frightening. Men strikes came like pistolshots. Try hit someone who moves fast and strikes back. But after a view session i get some practice, the fear of getting hit fades. At that time we are using the padded swords with a glassfiber core and dont use headprotection. Stupid. Sometimes when i come back from training my face looks like i had some friendly rounds in a boxinggym. But, all you combatready kendoka out there grab a pair of fukuro shinai and search a skilled kenshin of a classical ryu or at least someone who dont use your rules of fighting. I was experimenting with different strategies to score in the fights with my teacher. On one lucky day got his legs two times in a row! Greedy bastard as i am made a third try and get a men strike that nearly knocks me to the ground. Dont use the same stategy three times in a :D !!!! Try a kesagiri, kiriage and other strikes a kendoka is not trained to block. Most vunerable are the legs (in this specific situation of cause).This type of training will adjust the mindset of both Iaidoka exploring the concept of maai (i had an advantage cause i am also practice jodo) and kendoka learning to strike and defend other targetzones . I also think they could be usefull in aikido and other arts. In shiai wear headprotection unless you have mucho control and experience. Whats do you think about all this.
Greetings

[sven beulke]

Heres a picture of my teacher Dr.Frerk Möller and me. I am the well protected guy. I am getting me some advantage and extra reach with a prototyp fukuro naginata with foam padding!!:D You can see how the sword (glassfiber with padding) bends.
Regards

[sven beulke]

No , you dont see the sword bending on the photo. Posted the wrong pic.

[warren33]

Brian Owens wrote:

The photos here are as good as the ones in the book. Here are the measurments:

Adult shinai: blade 97 - 100cm, hilt 21.2cm
Medium shinai: blade 75.75cm, hilt 19cm (book says "9" but that's a misprint)
Small shinai: blade 53cm, hilt 12cm
Child's shinai: blade 85cm, hilt 20cm (my hilt figure -- book doesn't say.)

For the leather "sleeve" cut a piece of material several centimetres longer than the listed blade length, because you partially lace one end then turn it inside out to form the tip. The width is the diameter of the bamboo plus the overlap distance. Mine has a 3cm overlap, with a 1cm lace inset 1cm from the edge.

If you can't find a local source of bamboo, you used to be able to order a "replacement" from Bujin Design for $25.00 and add your own leather. The site also had some pictures IIR (Ihaven't looked there recently).

HTH.


A very, very belated "thank you" for the info. :o

Regards,

warren wise

[Benkei the Monk]

I resume this interesting thread in order to ask Sven one thing about the construction. How did you cut the bamboo of the shinai? Do you use a manual or electric saw? How did you spplit exactly the piece of bamboo in parts of the same dimension?

Thanks a lot

[sven beulke]

Hi Luca!
Hand or machine doesnt matter. I prefer a good , sharp handsaw! There are special saws in japan for bamboo but any good saw will do!
Splitting is easy! Take a large kitchenknife and a small rubberhammer to force the knive down the rod. Its not nessecary to spilt the bamboo 100% exactly. If you have a good eyesight and some practice you split a bamboo almost perfect in five minutes! I alway say "the bamboo knows the way!" :) ! By the way , here a trick to split the bamboo with control: twist the handle of the knife after you split the first 10 cm!
Good Luck!

[Benkei the Monk]

Thanks a lot Sven. Your help is very useful and your advice is precious. I hope the fukuro shinai will be one of the next projects of the Garden of Cherry trees. Obviously, with your authorization, you will be quoted as a consulent of the project .Thanks a lot for your hints :)