How many Catholics-Christians do we have on E-budo

[Bushi Jon]

So am I the only Catholic or do we have more.

[Shitoryu Dude]

You left out the orthodox church.

:beer:

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
You left out the orthodox church.
Since the poll didn't say "Roman Catholic" then Orthodox, Anglican, etc. could choose "Catholic," but there should have been at least an "Other Christian" and a "Not a Christian" category.

The few choices listed leave a lot of people out.

[Blackwood]

And how does 'Bible Belt Christian' differ from other Christians? There are United Methodists (Don't forget the United or you'll have a number of former EUB types upset!) in the Bible Belt.

[Shitoryu Dude]

I think he means evangelist.

Part of the problem is that, at least here in the US, is that there are so many varieties of xtian. Europe is primarily catholic or orthodox, with anglican in the UK. In the US there is catholic, orthodox, anglican, methodist, baptist, southern baptist, 7th day, mormons, evangelical, etc, etc, etc. You can throw in the odd personality cult loosely based on xtianity such as David Koresh and a variety of skinheads, KKK groups, and "survivalists" as well.

Then we also have scientology, hindu, astrology, "spiritualists", muslim, shinto, and a large variety of guru types such and ekencar, hare krishna & ba'hai.

After that you have agnostics and atheists - I'm sure I missed more than a few.

:beer:

[Sochin]

I'm a Protestant (ie non-Catholic),non-Charismatic, non-Evagalistic, non-Mormon Christian who believes in the pre-conception existance of all spirits, (before the existance of the physical universe).

How should I vote?

[JukoDragon]

Pagan and Proud....

[Bushi Jon]

Hey guyds all I realy want to know is how many of us Christians are floating out there in Budo land

[n2shotokai]

Originally posted by Bushi Jon
Hey guyds all I realy want to know is how many of us Christians are floating out there in Budo land Protestant if I have to be labeled, but there was no option.

[Chrono]

I thought Catholic and Christian were the same thing.

Jon

[Ben Bartlett]

Originally posted by Chrono
I thought Catholic and Christian were the same thing.

Jon
Nah, there are a lot of Christians who aren't Catholics: Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans... the list goes on.

[Chrono]

Originally posted by Ben Bartlett
Nah, there are a lot of Christians who aren't Catholics: Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans... the list goes on.

So Baptists, Methodists, etc. are just subgroups of the Catholic religion, or just two totally different religions?

Jon

[TommyK]

Greetings,

I was raised Roman Catholic by a Sicilian Father and a Ukranian Orthodox mother. That said, what does the poll have to do with martial arts? Just curious?

For those others who believe that various other denominations are part of the Catholic experience, try telling that to some friends of mine from Belfast, they will delight in explaining the difference between Catholics and Protestants to you.

Regards,
TommyK

[Ben Bartlett]

Originally posted by Chrono
So Baptists, Methodists, etc. are just subgroups of the Catholic religion, or just two totally different religions?

Jon
Well, they're not two totally different religions... but basically, hundreds of years ago, there was something called the Protestant revolution, where a bunch of people split with the church (you'll have to excuse me for being a bit vague on the details, as history isn't my speciality). Generally, the beginning of it is attributed to Martin Luther's 95 Theses, which he wrote around 1517. Basically, there were a number of people who thought the Catholic church had degenerated (in particular, the fact that priests would hand out indulgences in return for money incensed Luther). Protestants don't recognize the authority of the Pope, don't have confession, don't believe in transubstantiation, etc. Catholicism and Protestantism are both subgroups of Christianity, however.

Wikipedia has a fairly good summary here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism) .

[poryu]

absolutely 100% atheist and proud of it. Thats what a forced catholic upbringing did for me - proved there is no one called god as christians precieve him.

what about adding occultists to the list, at least there religion is connected to the christian faith

just assuming that the only people here will be somehow associated with a religion that worships a man is a bit bad.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Chrono
So Baptists, Methodists, etc. are just subgroups of the Catholic religion, or just two totally different religions?
Other way around, sort of. Baptists, Methodist, Catholics, etc. are all Christians.

Or to put it another way, all Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics.

It also gets confusing because most people, at least here in the US, think Catholic only refers to the Roman Catholic Church (the ones under the guidance of the Pope in the Vatican). But actually, Anglicans, Greek Orthodox, Armenian, etc. are Catholics.

Also, while Lutherans are considered Protestants (the first Protestants, in fact), if you attend a Lutheran church you may here them reciting the Apostle's Creed including the line "I believe in...the Holy Catholic Church." In this case they are not referring to a Catholic denomination, but using the term Catholic in it's sense of one unified whole.
Originally posted by TommyK
That said, what does the poll have to do with martial arts?
Nothing, neccesarily. But this is the Member's Lounge. We discuss a wide range of topics here.

[PwarYuex]

What's the difference between Anglicans and Methodists?
My family "is" Methodist, yet my grandfather is a minister at an Anglican Church. Until now, I thought they were very similar, but people in this thread are saying they aren't?

[elder999]

Originally posted by PwarYuex
What's the difference between Anglicans and Methodists?
My family "is" Methodist, yet my grandfather is a minister at an Anglican Church. Until now, I thought they were very similar, but people in this thread are saying they aren't?


The separation of the Anglican Church (one province of which is the Episcopal Church in the USA) and the Methodist Church is very recent in Christian church history. It was only at the end of the 18th century that the growth of the "Methodist movement" founded by the Rev. John Wesley, a Church of England priest, led to the establishment ofthe Methodist Church in North America and England.

The Rev. John Wesley was a presbyter of the Church of England who said he had "an indeterminate commission to preach the word of God, in any part of the Church of England." His emphasis was on theology, education, and discipline towards the reform of the Church and the increase of Scriptural holiness in ail of England. John Wesley had no intention of breaking away from the Church of England and remained so until the time of his death. However, his measure and means for holiness — in classes and societies, itinerant lay preaching, conferences, love feasts, popular literature, discipline, , hence, "Methodism"— provided momentum that carded his British successors towards separation. His decision to provide order for the Methodist movement in America and to set apart Thomas Coke, also an Anglican presbyter, as Superintendent and direct that Francis Asbury also be set apart laid the foundations for building a quite new and indigenous American denomination.

_At this time the leadership of the Church of England was very weak in both Britain and in the colonies. Many of the bishops were political appointees. A lot of the energies of priests and lay people had gone into the religious struggles of the 17th century or the evangelical rallies of the 18th.

There are differences in certain rituals like confirmation, but in doctrine they remain very much the same.

There have been efforts to rejoin or reconcile the two, as recently as 1998 in the U.S., but they've come to little.

By the way, Rob,my dad, granddad and great granddad were Episcopal priests.....(and you don't have to be afraid of this American)

[primeape]

Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
Europe is primarily catholic or orthodox, with anglican in the UK.


Sorry, shitoryu, Europe is primarily catholic, generally south of the Rhine and Alps, and PROTESTANT, mainly in the northern parts. The Orthodox reside in Greece, Bulgaria and Russia, i.e. where the East Roman empire used to be, with some small minority Orthodox churches sprinkled here and there.
For example, Finland has two official state churches, lutheran and orthodox, with lutheran something like 90 per cent of the population. Lutherans we became with the Swedes, while the Orthodox came during the Russian period. At the same time, we got our jewish minority and also the turko-tattar muslims.
The reasons are historical: after the Roman empire split, in 395, the latin-speaking church gradually grew apart from the greek-speaking half, and they were separated in 1095. The latin version became a political power in its own right while the greek, orthodox, tradition remained more subdued since the eastern empire stayed together while the western was overrun.
In the 1500s, during the Refromation, some princes became protestant for political reasons, wishing to cut the power of the universal catholic church. Finland joined protestants with the swedish king converting and confiscating the assets of the catholic church to finance war of independence against the Danes. In the same way, Netherlands became protestant as a part of the movement away from the Spanish Habsburg empire...
The reason there are so many varieties of Xianity in the US is mainly due to the fact that it became easier to escape religious persecution by emigrating in the 1600s - 1700s (remember the Puritans?)

BTW, before anyone asks, I have resigned from the state lutheran church, and do not feel partial to any religion. However, I carry Thor's hammer on my keyring. In case I die in a traffic accident or some other heroic endeavour, I may gain entrance to the Feast in Asgard..:D

Just wishing to correct a misunderstanding I wind up giving a lecture...

Primeape
Vesa Varhee
Helsinki

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by primeape
...Just wishing to correct a misunderstanding I wind up giving a lecture...
And a good one at that.

(In case the Christians and Buddhists are wrong, please put in a good word to Odin for me. ;) )

[primeape]

Thanks, I will, if he listens to Finns....(we do not carry his name on a weekday, as most germanic languages do. Funnily enough, in German his day is just Mittwoch, Midweek, and Finnish has picked it from there....Go figure :))

However, my favourite theology is the one I found on the Discworld: all afterlifes exist, and where you wind up depends on which religion you were booked to at the time of death, so do not worry, just be careful when picking where you register :D

Primeape
Vesa Varhee,
Helsinki
One man's theology is another man's belly laugh
-Lazarus Long

[monkeyboy_ssj]

The Reverend will never say what Religion he is ;)

Jukodragon, How long was you been following Paganism for? my Ex was Pagan and did like some of the ideas it had.

Just as long as you don't say "I'm Pagan and like to kill goats" ;)

Cheers

[adouglasmhor]

I am an episcipalian. (the Scottish section of the Anglican tradition), and I used to go to the local Anglo Catholic church a sub group (but full members of the anglican church who believed) in the return of Catholic tradition to the protestant faith, so we went to mass, had confession, etc. but were still protestant. And we called the minister Father, and the Church was decorated like an RC church. People are strange.

[elder999]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj


Just as long as you don't say "I'm Pagan and like to kill goats" ;)

Cheers

I'm NOT "pagan," and I like to kill goats..........and barbecue or slow cook them......."kids," actually.....the goats, that is.;)

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by elder999
I'm NOT "pagan," and I like to kill goats..........and barbecue or slow cook them......."kids," actually.....the goats, that is.;)

You sound like my kind of guy...But kids are tasty too. the other other white meat http://smilies.jeeptalk.org/contrib/scorchio/saevil.gif

Cheers

[Bushi Jon]

Speaking of killing goats MY brother in-law owns a farm here in South Bend and I got to watch a kosher slauter ,man was that freaky.

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by elder999
I'm NOT "pagan," and I like to kill goats..........and barbecue or slow cook them......."kids," actually.....the goats, that is.;)

I'm also not pagan, and while i'm not particularly hot on killing goats, i was peckish once ....

The not liking the killing probably had something to do with my limited tools. 1 UK Army Entrenching Tool (short handled, folding spade for those who don't do army-speak) and 1 Swiss Army Knife.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
...the other other white meat http://smilies.jeeptalk.org/contrib/scorchio/saevil.gifAlso known as "Long Pork."
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
The Reverend will never say what Religion he is ;)
Judging by the, uh, "smilie" in your "other white meat" post I'd be afraid to ask.

Anton LaVey wasn't in your hierarchy, I hope.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
"Long Pork."



Oh the sexual innuendo...

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi


Judging by the, uh, "smilie" in your "other white meat" post I'd be afraid to ask.

Anton LaVey wasn't in your hierarchy, I hope.

My lips are sealed...(it isn't that though!)

Cheers ;)

[n2shotokai]

Maybe the poll should have been:

1. Catholic
2. Christian - other

I know I am not the only one who has not voted.

Presbyterians also recite the Apostles Creed. The explanation being the holy little "c" catholic Church, not capital "C" as in the vatican. But then it goes on to mention the communion of saints, which is Catholic don't ya know. There is a motion to remove "holy catholic Church from the Apostles creed to eliminate this confusion ;) You see what it did to the Episcopal Church :D

Something that was not mentioned earlier. When the Protestant movement began (and other times when people tried to seperate from the Catholic Church), the Pope sent Catholic soldiers to slaughter people who dared to try to seperate from the Church. What happened to Martin Luther? I don't remember his name (Zwingli), but one of the first Presbyterians was a priest who broke away from the C Church in either Switzerland or Austria. Oooops, to close to Rome and the soldiers took him out.

For clarification, Christian means "follower of Christ" (see Acts). Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Luthern, etc. are all followers of Christ (Christians). I love asking devout Catholics if they are Christian. Half say "no, I am Catholic" :rolleyes:

[Bushi Jon]

Of course we are Christians

[n2shotokai]

"They will know we are Christians by our love, by our love"

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by n2shotokai
"They will know we are Christians by our love, by our love"
The first line of that used to be "We are one in the Spirit," but considering the conflicts around the world within and between denominations I don't think that's really appropriate anymore.

[n2shotokai]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
The first line of that used to be "We are one in the Spirit," but considering the conflicts around the world within and between denominations I don't think that's really appropriate anymore. Yep, and now Israel has started WW III.

[Shison]

Hmmmm, no place for me to vote...

Let's just say I'm firmly Christian. I used to be agnostic (When I became a Christian, I looked up the word, now I chuckle softly in my mind every time I heard someone claim to be agnostic).

With that said, it's now time to get back to keiko :)

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by n2shotokai
Yep, and now Israel has started WW III.

You mean, by killing Yassin? Dunno if it's gonna be WWIII, but something's gonna happen.

As an aside, I found this item from the Right Wing News blog. Sometimes those right wingers have some interesting points.

**************************************

March 25, 2004
A Quick Thought On The Yassin Killing
It seems to me that everyone is asking the wrong question about Israel turning Sheik Ahmed Yassin into a bloody, metallic puddle of slurry. What I keep hearing is...

"Why did Sharon have Yassin killed?"

Given that...

1) Hamas openly tells the world that they intend kill of the Israelis
2) Hamas is going to kill as many Israelis as possible, as often as possible, and they can't be reasoned with
3) There is zero possibility of a real lasting peace breaking out anytime soon despite all the talk you hear about a "Roadmap to Peace".
3) The UN hates Israel and blatantly sides with the Palestinians
4) On the whole, Europe hates Israel and blatantly sides with the Palestinians
5) No matter what they may say publicly, the Bush administration isn't going to be upset with Israel for killing terrorists.

...I'd say the appropriate question is...

"Why not kill Yassin?"

You could add to that...

"Why not kill every terrorist that you can, including Arafat?"

I mean if peace isn't around the corner, your enemies are determined to drive you into the sea, and all of the world (except the US) is going to condemn you when do anything except lay back and die, why not just kill every terrorist you can get a bead on and let the chips fall where they may?

Or put another way...

"Two Jews who were being stood against a wall by a Nazi execution squad. Allowed a few last words, the first Jew curses his killers, telling them they will lose the war and roast in Hell and all their crimes will be avenged and . . . then he hears the other Jew whispering in his ear: Shush! You'll make them mad."

John Hawkins | 01:39 AM | Comments (26) | Link Cosmos | TrackBack (0)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Tamdhu]

Self-detonating Muslim and prou--

--NO CARRIER--

[n2shotokai]

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
You mean, by killing Yassin? Dunno if it's gonna be WWIII, but something's gonna happen.

Yep, I just wish there was a quieter way to do it. Now they are using retarded children to deliver bombs. I heard a talk show host yesterday say, "why don't we bomb the stuffing out of those protesters who were lined up perfectly in the street. They are terrorist or soon to be terrorist". Maybe he had a point. I don't blame the Israelies one bit. They tried talking, but the Hamas is just bombing women, children and tourists.

From a self-defense standpoint, if you know someone is trying to kill you, are you going to terminate the threat or wait until they are successfull?

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by n2shotokai
...They tried talking, but the Hamas is just bombing women, children and tourists.

From a self-defense standpoint, if you know someone is trying to kill you, are you going to terminate the threat or wait until they are successfull?
For a different perspective, try looking at it from the Palestinians' point of view.

They tried talking for decades, but the Zionists weren't listening.

How would you react if a bunch of refugees who had moved into your neighborhood started pushing you out, first with political pressure and later with force of arms and terrorist tactics? After decades of torment, and no help from the police, you might start resorting to extreme measures yourself.

Remember that from Hamas' viewpoint, what the Isreali government is doing to them is the same as what the US Government did to the Native Americans, and the Chinese are doing to Tibetans.

[primeape]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
[B]For a different perspective, try looking at it from the Palestinians' point of view.

They tried talking for decades, but the Zionists weren't listening.



And here I was thinking neither the palestinians or the arab neighbours ever recognized the U.N. decision to divide the mandate into jewish and moslem halfs, let alone recognize the state of Israel...Funnily enough, they keep on demanding that the decision 242 from year 1967 must be folowed, when they failed to follow one made twenty years earlier. And those immigrants moving in bought their land from the Turks.


Primeape
Vesa Varhee
firsthand experience from a kibbutz built in the middle of a swamp, later cultivated into quite succesful agricultural community.

[Starkjudo]

Originally posted by n2shotokai
Presbyterians also recite the Apostles Creed. The explanation being the holy little "c" catholic Church, not capital "C" as in the vatican. But then it goes on to mention the communion of saints, which is Catholic don't ya know.

We Methodists recite the Apostles Creed on a weekly basis as well, but i'm not sure our version is little 'c'; i'll have to check. There's not a great difference dogmatically between historical Pres./Meth./Epis., anyway, as far as i've ever understood.

[Kimpatsu]

Just to p!ss you all off:
The title of this thread should be changed to "How many superstitious fools are there on e-budo?"
:D

[Cady Goldfield]

Brian, you need to read up on actual history. Vesa ("Primeape") is correct and you are mistaken. Jews have lived in that region for 5,000 years, and did so side-by-side with Arabs under the (virulently anti-Jewish) Ottoman Empire prior to British control. This was before any Diaspora refugee descendents returned. To compare Israel and Arabs with Euros and Native Americans is grossly wrong.

Tony,
You just keep on going like the Energizer Bunny... ;)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Tony,
You just keep on going like the Energizer Bunny... ;)
Does your boyfriend know about you and me, Cady...? ;) :D

[Cady Goldfield]

:rolleyes:

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Brian, you need to read up on actual history. Vesa ("Primeape") is correct and you are mistaken.
I have read actual history, and I do not believe that I am mistaken.
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Jews have lived in that region for 5,000 years, and did so side-by-side with Arabs under the (virulently anti-Jewish) Ottoman Empire prior to British control.
Yes, they lived side by side for thousands of years. And contrary to common usage of the term, Arabs and Jews are both Semites (Children of Shem).
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
This was before any Diaspora refugee descendents returned. To compare Israel and Arabs with Euros and Native Americans is grossly wrong.
Yes, but after WWII the nature of Jewish occupation in the region changed drastically. Israel became a geopolitical State rather than a co-occupant religous/ethnic group.

Europeans lived for a short time side by side with Native Americans, but not long after the Revolution the US government began breaking treaties and expanding at the expense of the Native American nations.

I think a comparison with the modern State of Israel is valid.

[chrismoses]

The only thing about me that's Christian is my name.

The best figures I could find on the internet show that 43% of NON-COMBATANT casualties (since 2000) have been Israelis. What jumps out at me with that figure is that while Israel plays the victim of terrorism, they continue to kill more civilians than Hammas and all the other "terrorist" groups combined. So what makes Hammas a terrorist group and Israel the good guys?

According to the FBI:
"Terrorism: As defined by the FBI, "the unlawful use of force against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population or any segment thereof, in the furtherance of political or social objectives". This definition includes three elements: (1) Terrorist activities are illegal and involve the use of force. (2) The actions are intended to intimidate or coerce. (3) The actions are committed in support of political or social objectives. (FEMA-SS)"

Well, Israel is charged with protecting the people within their boarders from harm (practically the definition of government) so their use of force against civilians would be illegal. They are certainly using that force to push a political adgenda through intimidation. How then is Hammas labeled a terroist group and Israel the victim? It seems to me that the difference is that the Israeli's have uniforms and helicopters (not to mention US backing). Kind of reminds me of when the colonies decided they didn't want to pay taxes to GB any more so they tossed together an army and refused to fight 'fair'.

No I don't think suicide bombers are justified or in the right, but I do believe that the root cause of terrorism is HOPELESSNESS. A people that is so miserable that they are willing to die in order to exact some small ammount of revenge on their (real or perceived) opressors IS VERY DANGEROUS! The situation needs to be dealt with, not the leaders or the stupid kids throwing rocks at tanks. The use of force (as per Israeli and US anti-terror policies) ammount to holding patterns, not attempts at actual resolutions to terrorism and violence. Just look at Iraq, it's got all the makings of being the next Afghanistan, chaotic, poor central command and fluid boarders.

I think that's enough of a rant for now. Happy Friday everybody!

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
I think a comparison with the modern State of Israel is valid.

I don't. Jews of Semitic origin (as opposed to, say, Irish or Anglaos who decide to embrace the Jewish tribal religion like they might Buddhism or whatever) are FROM the region originally and are returning TO it. They are an ethnicity. By contrast, Euros were not originally FROM North America. They migrated to it with no prior ancestry there, and proceeded to take it over. They do not derive from an ethnicity that was from North America and thus have no roots to that continent.

By contrast, Semitic Jews are a people who were conquered and dispersed by Greeks and Romans in Samaria and Judea, then came back 2,000 years later to the lands of their origins. Despite the fact that they had lived in Europe, Asia, etc. for 2 millennia, at they are still returning to ancestral ground. When I had my DNA tested, it turned out to have much more in common with Arab ethnicity than European. That's because my ancestry is Semitic.

Euros were conquering new turf. Jews were returning to their old turf. Please get your history and anthropology straight.

Okay, that's it for me. We've hijacked enough threads with this topic. It's almost as frequent as Tony's aetheist rants as a topic on other people's threads. Start a new thread if you want to continue this unfortunate debate.

Er...now what was this thread supposed to be about? ;)

[spartanmachine]

"When I had my DNA tested"
Ok, Cady may I ask why you did that?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
:rolleyes:
Speechless, Cady? ;) :D

[Cady Goldfield]

Sometimes a good eye-roll suffices, Tony. Besides, my fiance would never believe it, anyway, since he knows I would never have an affair with a British bipedal slime mold! :p

Kostas, I did it for the same reason anyone would... I wanted to make sure I wasn't adopted! :D (Just kidding!).

[Exorcist_Fist]

The part about you being more Arabic than European is kind of fascinating. From my research regarding DNA testing and Ethnicity, I found the following.

1. It's only 50% accurate. As a QA guy, thats a really crappy rating. As in useless.
2. Middle Easterners fall under the same general ethnic classifications as "Europeans", being Indo-European derivatives.
3, The relations and breakdown within the 5 major sub-groups of peoples (African, Indo-European, Asian, and American, Australian) are so complex that at this time, even without the 50% error rating, further subclassifications are difficult at best.

Here is an example to show the difficulties in classification even on a broad spectrum.

DNA research has revealed just how great is our misconception of race. In The History and Geography of Human Genes, Luca Cavalli-Sforza of Stanford and his colleagues describe how many of the variations between humans are really adaptations to different environmental conditions (such as the relative density of sweat glands or lean bodies to dissipate heat and fat ones to retain it). But that's not the sort of thing you can easily build a system of apartheid around. As Thomas S. Martin has written:

The widest genetic divergence in human groups separates the Africans from the Australian aborigines, though ironically these two 'races' have the same skin color. ~ There is no clearly distinguishable 'white race.' What Cavalli-Sforza calls the Caucasoids are a hybrid, about two-thirds Mongoloid and one-third African. Finns and Hungarians are slightly more Mongoloid, while Italians and Spaniards are more African, but the deviation is vanishingly slight.


BTW, as an Italian Hungarian, this means I am more African and Asian than European...

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Sometimes a good eye-roll suffices, Tony. Besides, my fiance would never believe it, anyway, since he knows I would never have an affair with a British bipedal slime mold! :p
Slobbering wet kisses, Cady. :kiss:
BTW, I'm not slime mold. A bipdeal ape, but not slime mold.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Silent Dan
...What Cavalli-Sforza calls the Caucasoids are a hybrid, about two-thirds Mongoloid and one-third African...
I wonder why Thomas S. Martin uses "African" as a "race" (incorrectly, in my opinion), but then uses "Mongoloid" instead of "Asian."

To be consistent it should be Australoid, Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid; or African, Asian, Australian, and European; but not a mixture of both.

And as Silent Dan's post points out, deciding where to draw a genetic "dividing line" is pretty arbitrary. DNA evidence pretty strongly supports the theory that we are all "Africans" by decent, at least as far as I understand it.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Slobbering wet kisses, Cady. :kiss:
BTW, I'm not slime mold. A bipdeal ape, but not slime mold.

You're lucky, sometimes I struggle to walk on two feet, knuckles drag abit...

;)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
You're lucky, sometimes I struggle to walk on two feet, knuckles drag abit...
Matt, all humans are apes. African apes. Gorillas and chimps have more in common with us than they do with the Asian apes such as the Orang Utan and the Simayang.
Of course, everyone really knows that I'm from outer space... ;) :D

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Matt, all humans are apes. African apes. Gorillas and chimps have more in common with us than they do with the Asian apes such as the Orang Utan and the Simayang.
Of course, everyone really knows that I'm from outer space... ;) :D

That is true, although I may still live in a tree and beat my chest and sometimes throw dung, It beats living in a crashed spaceship ;)

ET eat your heart out...

Cheers

[Cody]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
I wonder why Thomas S. Martin uses "African" as a "race" (incorrectly, in my opinion), but then uses "Mongoloid" instead of "Asian."


Because "Asian" is arbitrary?

What "Asian" are you talking about? East Asian? S.E. Asian? And do you include Indonesia as part of "Asia"?

Apparently, there is another race associated with Asian, formally known as "Wasian," otherwise known as Egg - white on the outside, yellow from the inside. The report I read says that they can use chopsticks, speak some Japanese, ONLY ever date "Asian" women, eventually married to Asian woman and have dinner with her family, and belief themselves to be "truly Asian at heart."

So who does "Asian" include?

[Kimpatsu]

Surely "Asian" denotes anyone from the continent of Asia, which is defined geographically as from the Ural Mountains eastwards, north of Africa, and excluding Oceania, by which criteria, Indonesia most certainly is part of Asia.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Cody
Because "Asian" is arbitrary?
"African" is more arbitrary than most people think, too.

Egypt is in Africa, but it's also on the Mediterranean Sea, and -- until the Suez Canal was cut -- was directly connected to what we now call the Middle East. And it's separated from sub-Saharan Africa by, obviously, the Sahara Desert, which has been a natural barrier for millenia.

[gmellis]

Apparently, there is another race associated with Asian, formally known as "Wasian," otherwise known as Egg - white on the outside, yellow from the inside. The report I read says that they can use chopsticks, speak some Japanese, ONLY ever date "Asian" women, eventually married to Asian woman and have dinner with her family, and belief themselves to be "truly Asian at heart."

I use chopsticks, speak a feckload of Japanese, have only ever dated two women both of whom were Asian (hey, that's the people I hung out with; I would have had to have gone out of my way, or circle, just to date a white lady, and to prove what?),I married one of them, and eat dinner everynight here in Yokohama with my mother-in-law. The last one doesn't apply.

So what's it to ya limpdick? Have you got some kind of complex or something? Would you like to.....talk about it friend?

[Cody]

Originally posted by gmellis
I use chopsticks, speak a feckload of Japanese, have only ever dated two women both of whom were Asian (hey, that's the people I hung out with; I would have had to have gone out of my way, or circle, just to date a white lady, and to prove what?),I married one of them, and eat dinner everynight here in Yokohama with my mother-in-law. The last one doesn't apply.

So what's it to ya limpdick? Have you got some kind of complex or something? Would you like to.....talk about it friend?

Hmmm, quite a strong reaction to something that 1) you claim doesn't apply to you and 2) wasn't put in a derogatory way to start with.

It has to do with me because I am an "Asian woman" in Canada getting tired of men who tell me how they "love Asian women," as if we are all some sort of hyperexotic, mass-produced product that conform to their idea of "oriental femininity." It's even more absurd when I am merely treating them politely as I do most strangers, and they start telling me how they feel there is a "connection" with me, or how they are really certain that "you are the kind of woman that I want to take care of."

Upon closer examination, they cannot produce a coherent description what is "oriental culture," which they claim to love with all their heart. And when they find out my hobby is full contact karate and street combatives, they pause for a moment and go on to exoticize you even more with either Chun Lai or Bruce Lee.

It has to do with me because I am sick of people thinking there is such thing as an "oriental" that is homogenous, or "Asian women" who are exotic. It has to do with me because I am sick of the so-called "Asian value" that is being politicized and tweaked and misused to exploit.

May I stop now, Sir? Or would you like me to go on?

yours subserviently,

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Cody
Hmmm, quite a strong reaction to something that 1) you claim doesn't apply to you and 2) wasn't put in a derogatory way to start with.

It has to do with me because I am an "Asian woman" in Canada getting tired of men who tell me how they "love Asian women," as if we are all some sort of hyperexotic, mass-produced product that conform to their idea of "oriental femininity." It's even more absurd when I am merely treating them politely as I do most strangers, and they start telling me how they feel there is a "connection" with me, or how they are really certain that "you are the kind of woman that I want to take care of."

Upon closer examination, they cannot produce a coherent description what is "oriental culture," which they claim to love with all their heart. And when they find out my hobby is full contact karate and street combatives, they pause for a moment and go on to exoticize you even more with either Chun Lai or Bruce Lee.

It has to do with me because I am sick of people thinking there is such thing as an "oriental" that is homogenous, or "Asian women" who are exotic. It has to do with me because I am sick of the so-called "Asian value" that is being politicized and tweaked and misused to exploit.

May I stop now, Sir? Or would you like me to go on?

yours subserviently,

Sometimes I'm embarrassed to be a man, sometimes (most of the time for some) we act like such letching dorks.

I think what you described was Greg. I can understand these sort of people you describle as being around many of them most of the time myself, where everything has 'des' after it e.g. have you got the TV remote des?, and babies are always "kawaii"...eatting salad with chop sticks takes the biscuit.

It's almost racist when they start treating you differently, even though it's not intentionally insulting, it still is, it's reversed, almost patronizing in some ways.

If the situation was reversed and I was in a country where white males were not seen so much and people were coming up to us and patronizing me as if I was an 'alien' then I would feel the same too.

Thanks

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Cody
It has to do with me because I am an "Asian woman" in Canada getting tired of men who tell me how they "love Asian women," as if we are all some sort of hyperexotic, mass-produced product that conform to their idea of "oriental femininity." It's even more absurd when I am merely treating them politely as I do most strangers, and they start telling me how they feel there is a "connection" with me, or how they are really certain that "you are the kind of woman that I want to take care of."
Cody, I have a weakness for Oriental women, just as some men have a thing for redheads. Surely, what you're describing is an erotic mould, rather than some misplaced notion of "Asian womanhood"?

[Iain]

The problem is that western cultures have a habit of fetishizing the women of other cultures. The old 'dashing white guy swoops in to save chaste oriental maiden from evil drooling midgetoid oriental man' axiom dies a hard death. There's nothing wrong with finding oriental women aesthetically pleasing, but a lot of the time it's a product of an ugly mix of sexual fetishism and racism.

I see the same thing happening with Lebanese men and white women in Calgary a lot of the time. A Lebanese guy will have a white girlfriend whom he treats like crap, dresses up like a hooker and parades around the local bars in a sort of perverse reverse-victimization ritual. He inevitably ends up marrying a nice lebanese girl who he treats well and meets through the family. This isn't a blanket statement with regards to Lebanese people, -I've worked with a lot of sterling lebanese people- but it helps to see the same thing westerners sometimes do couched in a different cultural context.

Eroticism can oft-times be linked to ugly racist, sexist, and abusive tendencies, especially in western cultures where sex has always had pride of place as a tool of humiliation and dominance. You only have to look as far as the long-standing (although thankfully receeding) link between war and rape in the western world. Rape was for a long time the most common way to cow subject populations. I'm not suggesting that this connection didn't exist within other cultures, but a century or so of racist, sexist imperial domination did a splendid job of embedding it quite thoroughly in our culture. Just look at the prominence of rape within the prison system.

[Cody]

Matt, men are great, I love most of them, lecherous ones included :p (but no dorks please, unless they enjoy being my moving target for weapon practices.)

And you are right, it is very patronizing. Exactly why would I need to be "taken care of"? And by someone who doesn't even know me well enough to know I hate being stereotyped?

Tony, I might have blew it out of proportion, because of a recent "date" who is a blatant, chauvinistic, heavy-duty asianophile. I have no problem with people who have inclination for a certain race (or trait) as romantic partner. What I find insulting is when the race is stereotyped, and the stereotyping is politicized and escalated. This "gentleman" did not treat me as an individual, he is just treating me as a priced wall-flower he is certain all asian women are.

I think it has a lot to do with the reaction to western feminist movements. Apparently feminism has "so destroyed western society by de-sexing women," women from "oriental"[sic] societies suddenly become so much more "traditional" and "feminine."

I concede I am also stereotyping by calling asianophiles White-Asian (WAsian). I also concede there is always an element of "exotica" in the unfamiliar, and there is nothing wrong with expressing affections or curiosity for them. It just doesn't feel too good to be the target of the exoticization, that's all I am rebuking.

-C

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Cody
Matt, men are great, I love most of them, lecherous ones included :p (but no dorks please, unless they enjoy being my moving target for weapon practices.)



Hurray! She still loves me! ;)

Never mind Tony, she doesn't like dorks as said...(Can't wait to see you in December :D:D:D)

Cheers!

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
[B]Hurray! She still loves me! ;)
Never mind Tony, she doesn't like dorks as said...
This from a man who uses mustard to catch Komodo dragons... :rolleyes:

[Exorcist_Fist]

Cody,

You should look at it from our perspective.

1. As a white guy married to a Japanese woman, living in Japan, stupid people automatically assume I am some kind of wannabe Japanese.
2. As a white guy in Japan, I have to say there are plenty of "bananas" here. Or at least wannabe bananas. You know, yellow on the outside, but really American on the inside? I don't think any foreigner in Japan has not had the experience of having at least one Japanese tell them how "I look japanese, but inside, I am really like an American."
3. As with the above, while most foreign guys may not have a problem with this, there are plenty of Asian girls who find white dudes fascinating, the the point where taste goes out the window. ((That's how Tony finds dates... :p )

So, while I sympathize, it goes both ways. I did have one dumb !!! friend who used to go to parties and intro himself to any asian girl saying "Hi, I am Tony. I love Asian girls", not matter how ugly they were. If it makes you feel any better he finally started dating a very sadistic Asian girl who decided to see how stupid he was. Tony now lives in an institution, and not one of higher learning. ((This is a true story.))

The problem is not guys who like Asian girls. It's guys with no taste who like any asian girl. And btw, if you see some of the Russian women that Japanese guys date, you will see it works both ways. Men will be men.

[Cody]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences, Dan. Stereotype sucks either way, and I certainly don't imply all Caucacians who married Asian women are WAsian. You have a good point about people who will take up ANY asian female, but it is when I hear statements like "I only date Asian women" or "I can only make spiritual connection with Asian women" that sets off my radar.

Your banana remark is interesting. I used to think I was one, since I rebuke confucianism, identify myself as secular humanist (a very western idea), embrace relative morality, utilize situational ethic, and throughoutly enjoy liberty. I now identify myself as "Asian" in diaspora - I don't share the experience of my "Asian" friends at home, and I don't quite fit in Canada either.

I apologize that my previous rant was harsh. I guess we are all trying to make sense of our experience in a globalizing world.

-Cody

[Exorcist_Fist]

I used to think about stuff like that when I was in college. Now I just think of me as "Dan". It really helps clarify alot. Boxes are nice, but unless you have one specifically designed for the product, they are never a perfect fit.

Regarding the comments "I can make a spiritual connection to Asian women..." In my personal experience, people who wander saying things like that to Asian women, are also the sort of people who never get dates with Caucasian women either.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Silent Dan
Regarding the comments "I can make a spiritual connection to Asian women..." In my personal experience, people who wander saying things like that to Asian women, are also the sort of people who never get dates with Caucasian women either.
Well, not unless they pay, anyway... ;) :D