somenew ryu aikijujutsu/ Morihei & Sokaku

[shinja]

I've got something I would like to bounce off of you guys.

These are my observations:

It would seem that the popularity enjoyed by aikijujutsu in the US was more or less spearheaded by the interest Segal genterated in aikido through his movies. As folks investigated this "new" martial art (aikido) they found that much of aikido was derived from Daito ryu.

Was it not Takeda who specifically applied the term aiki to the term jujutsu which gives us aikijujutsu? If this is then the case, would it not be fair to say that anyone claiming to teach aikijujusu would have to be able to show some sort of direct link to Takeda and Daito Ryu? (and not some crudely executed aikido)

I'm not going to point at any one particular person or school. It just seems that there has been an explosion of aikijujutsu sytems croping up in the US.

What are your thoughts?

[Cady Goldfield]

As far as I'm concerned, if the art doesn't contain those 17 herbs and spices, it ain't the Colonel's secret recipe. A lot of people seem to be trying to backtrack from an aikido education, to see if they can pick up the original principles that were lost or altered from aikido's ancestral system. But they won't find them unless they train in a classical system that still contains those principles.

And unlike KFC's chicken recipe, it's not as easy to "crack the code" and self-discover what the ingredients are. You have to get them from someone who has them and can and will impart them, but most of those guys are a pretty closed bunch! At least, the ones who really *do* have the ingredients. A few will demonstrate and give seminars, but they won't impart in you what you really need to know -- just give you a taste of the Colonel's secret herbs 'n' spices. :)

Cady

[szczepan]

this is very known story, he learned it from a book some of his uchideshi read him for a while.
Not all of us are O'senseis yet, but if one develop very good sense of observation&good level in MA, I'd say he will see "Original Principles which are Lost".

As far as possibility to execute techniques without "Original Principles" - I don't believe it is possible.So everyone who gives a public demo, he presents these principles anyway.
Why we think they are hidden in a shadow? Cos our level is not high enough to see them.


regardz

[Brently Keen]

Nice analogy Cady. I think you make a good point. I'm sure that you'll agree that it's a simplification though.

Discovering and reproducing real aikijujutsu is substantially more difficult than just getting a hold of the "secret" ingredients in the recipe. Just being able to recite or even explain the "principles" means nothing if you haven't got (a clue about) aiki to start with.

Some of these folks think they have the recipe, secret ingredients and all, but they're not even frying chicken. They think they've got the "principles" of aiki learned from attending a few seminars and watching tapes, but what they're serving is a lot more like a flock of crow, than the Colonel's famous chicken.

* * * * *

While Seagal's movies have certainly made the general public more aware of aikido, and maybe even contributed some to it's recent growth and popularity, I think it's fair to say that aikido was already growing steadily here in the USA for 15+ years before 'Above the Law' even came out. Certainly many aikidoka have learned about Daito-ryu from reading about the history of aikido. We can all thank Stanley Pranin for his efforts in this area.

Whether or not Sokaku Takeda actually coined the term "aikijujutsu" is still up for debate though. He certainly popularlized it. Oral tradition in Daito-ryu maintains that the terms aiki and aikijujutsu (as well as the fundamental techniques), were both part of the tradition prior to Sokaku Takeda.

Because the earliest surviving documents (hiden mokuroku) issued by Sokaku Takeda contain the kanji for "Daito-ryu Jujutsu", and more recent scrolls refer to "Aikijujutsu" it is believed by many that it was Sokaku who coined and/or added the term "aiki". However, while that may be true, another (perhaps more accurate) interpretation is that the terms "jujutsu" in the earlier mokuroku refer to the content of the scroll's curriculum (techniques) rather than to the art or tradition as a whole.

In other words, we could interpret the earlier hiden mokuroku scrolls to simply refer to the "jujutsu" curriculum of Daito-ryu, which comprise the entry level techniques of the greater Daito-ryu tradition.

This perspective is consistent with the clearly stated fact (by all the top Daito-ryu masters) that Daito-ryu as a tradition contains both jujutsu and aiki (or aikijujutsu). And that aiki and jujutsu are two distinctly different things. The techniques contained in the hiden mokuroku scroll are clearly comprised of jujutsu techniques. The earlier scrolls simply described the techniques contained in the hiden mokuroku (accurately) as 'Daito-ryu Jujutsu', as opposed to describing (inaccurately) the whole art of Daito-ryu as 'Jujutsu'.

Later, the hiden mokuroku was changed to reflect the opinion that because the term "Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu" was already being used by Sokaku, and it more accurately described the art (tradition) as a whole, that it should also be indicated as such on all the scrolls.

Oral tradition claims that it was Kotaro Yoshida who made this suggestion to Sokaku Takeda. My own guess is that he probably made this suggestion when he was copying a scroll for Sokaku to give to someone else (it's known that both Kotaro Yoshida and Kodo Horikawa frequently copied scrolls and wrote for Sokaku). My own guess is that Sokaku probably didn't care too much one way or the other since he basically held writing in disdain and reportedly couldn't write much more than his own name (while he was a swordsman extraordinaire, he didn't subscribe to the dual way of the pen and the sword as stressed by his father and ancestors).

We do know however that Sokaku believed aiki was the pinnacle and very essence of the tradition that he taught, and whether he created aiki himself or just developed it to the next level, he certainly defined it as we now know it. And so I think it's probably safe to say that if it can't be traced directly to Sokaku Takeda through one of his senior students then it's probably safe to say it's not authentic aikijujutsu.

Tracing an art through Morihei Ueshiba's Aikido is certainly respectable, but it does not qualify as "aikijujutsu" IMO. Athough Ueshiba received a kyoju dairi certification, Sokaku clearly stated that he hadn't finished teaching him, before he struck off on his own. Although Ueshiba did teach "Daito-ryu" for some years before the war and even issued some "Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu" certificates, these were "hiden mokuroku" scrolls and thus only contained the first 118 entry level 'jujutsu' techniques of Daito-ryu.

So again, I believe the kanji for "Aikijujutsu" on these scrolls reflect the later change describing the 'art of Daito-ryu' as opposed to the 'Daito-ryu techniques' actually described in the mokuroku. Furthermore, I think the existing photo's, films, student notebooks, and Ueshiba's own book "Budo" all clearly describe the techniques being practiced and taught as shoden and chuden level techniques and variations derived primarily from the 118 jujutsu kata contained in the hiden mokuroku scroll. Ueshiba borrowed many concepts from Daito-ryu, but (IMHO) he did not teach "aikijujutsu". He taught aikido which was his own slightly modified form of jujutsu.

Brently Keen

[Edited by Brently Keen on 10-23-2000 at 11:33 PM]

[Nathan Scott]

Hi Brently-san,

I was curious about the following statement you made:

Athough Ueshiba received a kyoju dairi certification, Sokaku clearly stated that he hadn't finished teaching him, before he struck off on his own.

Before 1936, Ueshiba and Takeda appear to have been very tight. After 1936, they seem to have had a serious change of attitude towards each other. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Takeda did not speak favorably of Ueshiba if it was based on things said after they had a falling out.

According to Mr. Pranin and interviews from Daito ryu Instructors (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu book) Ueshiba Sensei was awarded the Kyoju Dairi as well as the Goshin 'yo no te, which as the time, was the highest award in the art.

Takeda Tokimune states in his interview that "he [Ueshiba] trained extensively and was enthusiastic. He was Sokaku's favorite student." He also states that Ueshiba was scolded nearly as often as he was, as if he was a family member. Takeda T. goes on to say "Mr. Ueshiba really practiced quite a lot...all together, he had seventy days practice as a student [which was apparently alot back then in DR], and had participated and taught as Sokaku's assistant.", "He [Sokaku] was always concerned about Morihei. Sokaku trusted him a great deal, and would call his name whenever he had a problem. Ueshiba was a diligent student.", and "I guess Sokaku Takeda loved Morihei Ueshiba best of all his students." These statements are from Sokaku S. son, who was there to see alot of their interaction in and out of training.

Kondo Sensei also confirms the aforementioned atmosphere in his intereview, and continues that Ueshiba had studied for twenty years, which he views to be a long time by any measure of a human life.

Mr. Pranin writes in the new book on "Ikkajo" that Ueshiba S. once stated in an unpublished interview that "Sokaku asked him to become his successor." (pg. 25)

I don't know if this last statement is true or not (first time I've heard that!), but in any event it would seem that those inside Daito ryu thought highly of him *and* his technique. In fact, it sounds like if anyone had received the full curriculum, it would have been Ueshiba.

I would actually agree that Ueshiba S. did not seem to use aiki as defined by DR in his art of Aikido, (or at least teach it), but I've never heard anyone say that Ueshiba S. did not have talent in DR. Personally, I don't think it is fair to judge Ueshiba S. from his students of Aikido, as what they did does generally appear to be somewhat different from what he did to some degree.

Anyway, if you don't mind, I'd very much like to know what the foundation is for your above quoted statement? I've never heard this clearly stated anywhere.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing defensively - I'm not an "Ueshiba Fanatic". But I do think credit should be given where it is due.

Thanks,

[shinja]

I was wondering if there are other legitimate Japanese arts NOT conected with Daito Ryu that refer to themselves as an "aiki" art.

[Nathan Scott]

BTW, whether you like/appreciate Steven Seagal or not, I think it would not be fair to say that his movies have not done a massive amount to promote the art of Aikido around the world (in name, if nothing else). While it would have prospered to some degree, I don't believe it would be the household name that it is without this "new dynamic art" being sensationalized on the big screen. The fact is that you never saw that kind of throwing action in movies before, and since Seagal used his own students for uke in the films, he was able to crank them pretty fast and hard. Much more realistic than alot of action films (in this regard, at least).

Also, partially as a result, Daito ryu would be widely unknown in and out of Japan if it were not for the efforts of Stanley Pranin and Aiki News/ Aikido Journal. I don't know if everyone is aware of this bit of trivia, but Aiki News has been and is still published in Japanese consistently for many years now, and only a handful of the articles in Aiki News are translated into English for re-publication in the Aikido Journal sister mag (unfortunately).

Mr. Pranin says in the new "Ikkajo" book that Daito ryu is the most popular Jujutsu tradition in Japan now, and I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

Just some thoughts,

[Brently Keen]

Nathan-san,

Fair question.

I don't have my source right in front of me, but as I recall, when Sokaku Takeda arrived uninvited at the Asahi newspaper dojo where Ueshiba was teaching. He said something to the effect of: "Although you've been learning from Ueshiba, I haven't finished teaching him." I think he also insisted that if they really wanted to learn, they should train with Sokaku from then on.

I remember some of my seniors in Japan talking about this at a restaurant one night after training. They were arguing about Ueshiba and whether or not he had aiki or something to that effect. I'd made a note about it back in 92 or 93.

I believe this is also mentioned in Stanley's book in both Tokimune's and/or Hakaru Mori's interviews. And I'm not sure, but I may have seen something about it somewhere else too. I'll have to check.

But, judging from Ueshiba's response to hearing that Sokaku had arrived, it seems to me he had a guilty conscience and that perhaps he was teaching what he knew wasn't his to teach. I mean the guy turned pale, ran off and disappeared for some time. His students were all standing around wondering what happened to him. This episode raises a lot of questions and one is: If Sokaku had really asked Ueshiba to be his successor, would he have run off like that?

I think it's fairly typical for Daito-ryu masters to be extremely courteous. It's part of the tradition of reigi and respect derived from oshikiuchi. This is contrary to behavior exhibited by most other martial arts masters today. Tokimune's demeanor towards Ueshiba and aikido in general also seem to stem sincerely from his "nice guy" character.

I think Tokimune's comments showed 1.) goodwill and depth of character; 2.) emotional detachment, no hard feelings or held grudges; 3.) confidence in his own position, stature and abilities - Ueshiba and/or aikido posed no threat to him or his legitimacy. I mean, if Ueshiba was indeed once intended to be a successor to Sokaku, or if he had learned all the curriculum, wouldn't it be natural for Tokimune to see Ueshiba as a 'illegitimate' rival? Instead Tokimune reaches out to the aikido community, compliments Ueshiba and politely shares much about Daito-ryu, and his father who played a pivotal role in Ueshiba's life as a martial artist. Tokimune displayed statesmanship and diplomacy, another kind of application of aiki, IMO.

Kondo sensei also spoke flatteringly of Ueshiba and IMO exaggerated the actual time Ueshiba spent training w/Sokaku. From his introduction to Sokaku around 1915 to 1936-7 when he seems to have ceased teaching Daito-ryu, he did not spend all those years training w/ Sokaku. If you look at the actual time they were together, it wasn't really that much.

Nathan wrote: "I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Takeda did not speak favorably of Ueshiba if it was based on things said after they had a falling out."

Contrary to Sokaku's "unfavorable" reputation, I don't think there's anything to indicate that Sokaku ever spoke much ill about Ueshiba. If he did, I think Tokimune would've felt likewise (especially considering who's responsible for most of his father's "unfavorable" reputation). Instead when Sokaku said he hadn't taught Ueshiba much, he wasn't disparaging Ueshiba, he was simply stating the truth. The amount that Ueshiba trained with him is recorded. I wouldn't be surprised if Sokaku had only said nice things to Tokimune about Ueshiba.

I think Sokaku has been painted with a bad rep, and given who's done most of the painting, Tokimune dispayed real class by not being offended, or retaliating in kind and disparaging Ueshiba in front of his students (Stanley's audience). This is a case of classic Japanese good manners, and seamless integration of life and budo.

What is long overdue IMO, is credit for this kind of teaching of respect by example, and generous modelling of exemplary virtues for all students of Daito-ryu and Aikido alike to follow. Ironically, it takes an opinionated gaijin who lacks the same humility to point this out.

Brently Keen







[Edited by Brently Keen on 10-26-2000 at 04:11 AM]

[Cady Goldfield]

Brently,
While Stanley Pranin cites one such instance where Ueshiba fled after hearing That Sokaku Takeda was in town, I've heard that such an event occurred at least several times. The "Asahi Occurance" is the best documented, thanks to Stanley.

Seeing what an important role honor and loyalty play in Japanese tradition, it is understandable why Takeda would be incensed at any sign of disloyalty, disobedience and disrespect regarding the transmittal of an art.

It doesn't appear, on the surface, that the Furies pursued Ueshiba for the rest of his days, so my conjecture is that he rationalized his behavior for the purpose of self-aquittal, while stopping the transmittal of aikijujutsu as Takeda had taught it to him, for the purpose of self-preservation against the "Wrath of Takeda"! :)

Cady
"Headin' for the bunkers..."

[glad2bhere]

Dear Shinja:

For a new member with just 9 contributions you sure have jumped into the deep end of the pool! I'm guessing just about every person reading your contribution knows exactly what you are talking about. I titled this little missive "oh yeah, me too!" because thats the venue I see most often especially in the more traditional MA. The protocol is some like a situation as follows. A person teaches, say WXYZ art and grappling becomes popular ans suddenly WXYZ art has a range of grappling techniques. Or the media plays up JKD, TKD, HKD and guess what--- WXYZ art has equivalent techniques NBR (never before revealed).

When I was a subscriber to the old AIKI NEWS (now AIKIDO JOURNAL) Daito-ryu was just being revealed in its relationship to Aikido. There was one person, I believe his name was Yonazawa (sp) who was making appearances and doing seminars on Daito-ryu here in the States. S Loveret was talking about it in limited ways in his publication THE BUJIN. Do you remember the JKD fad some years back? How about the Ninjitsu fad after that? In my art, Hapkido, every TKD school that teaches a shoulder throw advertises that they teach Hapkido as well. Well, Daito-ryu is going through the same thing, except that most of the legitimate schools and instructors can be identified as the lineage is pretty well documented. (Unfortunately in Hapkido, we have been so fractioned that tracking peoples' bonafides is all but impossible.)

You are right on the money, Shinja. I have much more respect for an instructor who lays out the limits of their art up front and deals with it, than with someone who tries to live off the reflected authority of an established lineage.

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

[Ron Tisdale]

Actually, I had heard that a lot of the problems between Ueshiba and Sokaku stemmed from the non payment of instructors fees. Sokaku wanted his due share, and Ueshiba wasn't comming accross. I'll see if I can find a reference.

Ron Tisdale

PS Brently, so you noticed the "irony" too?
RT

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
Actually, I had heard that a lot of the problems between Ueshiba and Sokaku stemmed from the non payment of instructors fees. Sokaku wanted his due share, and Ueshiba wasn't comming accross. I'll see if I can find a reference.
RT

I'd heard that as well, and think it's all part of a more complex issue full of nuance. I do remember reading that, for many of the old-time MAs, the sum of money per student requested by a system's leader (for each student trained in a seminar or class by one of the students, such as Ueshiba as a student of Takeda) was not all that great, and was more likely for the "principle of the thing" than it was for any sort of monetary gain. As a student, you were showing respect for your teacher and the privilege he was extending to you (to teach the art he'd given you) by setting aside this honorary tithe, so to speak. So, in the case of Ueshiba withholding payments to Takeda, a hard-core artist -- not a businessman -- it would have been an act of utter disrespect by Ueshiba toward his teacher, not a banal "money matter."

That's just conjecture, of course. What the heck do I know?! It would be good to hear from those more learned in the subject, as well as in the nuance of Japanese culture and interrelationships.

Cady

[Nathan Scott]

Brently-san et al,

Actually, I do recall that statment about Sokaku saying something like that when he arrived at the Asahi Shinbun. It is in the Daito ryu Interviews book somewhere, as you say. But I guess it sounded to me like Takeda S. was probably more pissed at Ueshiba and brash in his manner than literal. No teacher teaches his student "everything", and as such it would be easy and accurate to say so if inclined. That's not to say your wrong - we'll never really know I guess.

Sokaku Sensei may not have been the demon that he was originally thought to be, but interviews do site times (as an example) where he would throw bigger, high ranking Budoka down when teaching someplace and then make fun of them for not being able to resist his technique. He seems to have been very out spoken, strongly opinionated, irritable and insecure (perhaps from being only 4 foot 11 inches tall and not being able to write). I wouldn't be surprised to find that he had said a comment like that because he was upset and threatened by Ueshiba's teaching and growing reputation - especially when he was his student.

Good points in the rest of your post as well. I get the impression that it was mostly Kisshomaru, Ueshiba's son and successor, that was really against Daito ryu and any affiliation with it. He definitely had his own version of Aikido history, and apparently refused to use the title "Aikijujutsu Ogi" that was the name of the reprint of "Budo Renshu" in Japan, and instead asked that the new translation be called "Budo training in Aikido" to push Aikido's name up. I still want to know what happened to the 40 something techniques of "Budo Renshu" that are not included in this new edition.(!)

As Cady-san points out, it would seem that Ueshiba S. had neglected his obligations to Takeda S. and perhaps had deviated enough in his own path to upset Takeda S. greatly - or perhaps disappoint might be more appropriate. I'm also coming around to Cady's theory that DR Aiki does not seem to have been taught in Aikido (although Ueshiba surely used it himself), which may be another reason why Daito ryu was willing to let things alone. He seems to have with held teaching the inner principles of DR to his students.

Ueshiba S. was apparently becoming more famous than Takeda S. (according to interviews), and he was branching off into his own variation art. If he were to openly teach DR secrets - the core of DR - then it would be a big problem for the DR community since they prefer to be so conservative. Ueshiba also had influential associates and contributors later, so all around it may have been decided that as long as Ueshiba was not teaching the core principles of DR that it may be best to just leave him alone.

Good posts,



[Edited by Nathan Scott on 10-26-2000 at 11:54 AM]

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
I'm also coming around to Cady's theory that DR Aiki does not seem to have been taught in Aikido (although Ueshiba surely used it himself), which may be another reason why Daito ryu was willing to let things alone. He seems to have withheld teaching the inner principles of DR to his students.

Do you suppose that might also be why Ueshiba seemed so magical to his students, seemingly performing physical feats that even his seniormost students could not replicate? I'm not talking about stopping bullets :rolleyes: but, rather the incredible power such a small (and, late in life, frail) man was able to generate with so little effort.

Hey, does Ellis Amdur's new book talk about this at all?

Cady

[Walker]

In certain aspects O Sensei was a selfish man.
In Stanley’s Two Pillars lecture one gets an impression that O Sensei was a bit of dilettante. He never held a proper job and was largely supported by his family in early life. Much of his teaching also has the feeling of his own practice and his students were there to do ukemi for him and if they got anything out of it then great. I think that a lot of today’s aikido is inspired by O Sensei, but formulated by Doshu, Tohei and others. That would explain statements by deshi to the effect that we were doing aikido, but O Sensei was doing something beyond that.
On the other hand Stanley states that whenever they were together and without exception Ueshiba always behaved like a devoted student toward Takeda and personally looked after him. Interestingly the same has been reported in connection with Onisaburo at the Omoto. There are anecdotes of aikido students being embarrassed by O Sensei’s devoted behavior on visits to Omoto centers.
Well for what that is all worth.

[Cady Goldfield]

Good comments, Doug. Particularly your observations regarding how Ueshiba trained vs. how he taught. Many "pure artists" are mainly concerned with their own refinement and technique development, and not with teaching the art to others. I suspect you may have hit on a truth that Ueshiba was mostly interested in having a steady supply of uke for his practice. :)

As far as his treatment of his teachers (including his Omotokyo people) is concerned, if he were being a dutiful Japanese student, he would have done everything expected and required of him by his culture and societal upbringing.

However, the act of carrying out duty and obligation doesn't mean that he couldn't have contradictory feelings. There can be a big, big difference between how Ueshiba M. might have behaved in the presence of his teacher, and how he might have behaved behind his teacher's back.

Perhaps his later behavior was not so much out of malice, as it was out of self-centeredness that managed to break free of Japanese class/societal convention and duties. But in reading the various accounts, it sure comes across that there was a selfishness, and perhaps a downright lack of honor in Ueshiba.

[Nathan Scott]

I think most of us are trying to be as objective as possible when involved with discussions on this list, despite any stylistic affiliations. It is probably safe to say that you know exactly nothing about the kind of Aikido I do under Obata Sensei, and what my personal influences are anyway.

I and most others serious followers of aiki enfluenced arts are well aware of the exaggerations found in Mr. Stevens writings, and as such approach his work cautiously. But thanks for pointing this out. There are numerous first hand account stories that have been retold in the Daito ryu interviews book and other places that demonstrate the kind of qualities in Takeda S. that I mentioned previously. Thus, my comments are my own conclusions based off of what I've read and heard over the years, thats all.

My contributions tend to state exactly what I mean to say, or in certain cases, *do not state* exactly what I would prefer to not say. If you doubt my contributions as they are written here, Popie, your welcome to skip over them. I won't be offended.

BTW, I asked you in a PM to please resist quoting entire (especially long) posts by other members again unless it is really necessary. I have received complaints specifically about this unnecessary "noise" in regards to many of your posts, and you have chosen to ignore this request. As I told you before, you can either follow the guidelines set here or you can post elsewhere if you don't like how this forum is managed. It's that simple.

Regards,




[Edited by Nathan Scott on 10-26-2000 at 04:18 PM]

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mr Scott:

You just tossed me a curve, though perhaps I'm the only one who was thrown. From your Sig block its plain that you practice Shinkendo, and I understand the relationship with S Obata. Real quick, can I get a brief overview of his/your relationship to Aikido? I think where I am confused is with the title of S Obatas' book SAMURAI AIKIJITSU. Sorry to intrude but if I don't get things asked when they occur I have a senior moment. My students will tell you its not pretty :-).

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

[Nathan Scott]

Hello Bruce-san,

There is not a simple, clear cut answer to your question! However, let me start by borrowing from the Aikido section of our main web page at http://www.shinkendo.com/aikido.html

Mr. Obata relocated from Japan to America in 1980 to develop the foundation for a research organization, called the "Aikibujutsu Tanren Kenkyukai" (or "Aiki Buken" for short)*. The purpose of this organization is to accurately rebuild concepts and techniques from the older styles of [Aikijutsu] used during the Samurai times, as well as to study and continue to develop the "softer" styles of modern Aikido.

*Aikibujutsu refers to certain older traditions of Budo, or Martial Arts, of the Samurai. Tanren is the process during the forging of a sword in which the blade is hammered and folded, reducing the carbon content and eliminating impurities in order to provide a strong foundation for the remaining steps of the sword's birth. Kenkyukai defines as a research organization, or society.

The Aiki Buken is a practicing research/preservation organization that has a core curriculum as created/ assembled by Obata Kaicho. The "Samurai Aikijutsu" video you mentioned is a representation of some of the things we practice, as well as samples of various other aspects of "samurai" budo - some of which we practice and some of which we don't. But, we don't teach "Samurai Aikijutsu", so as such the video was not intended to be an exact sampling of what we do in the dojo everyday, but rather a demonstration of various aspects of fuedal Bugei.

Aside from the core curriculum, instructors are somewhat at liberty to fuse the "good parts" of their related experience into their dojo's curriculum. For example, I trained in Judo and Aikikai Aikido when I was a kid, and have since trained at an Aikikai affiliate for a short time as well, etc. etc. One addition I've chosen to incorporate is a comprehensive set (actually, two sets) of ukemi in the Aikido I teach in my dojo that includes methods I learned in Judo and Aikikai. Obata Kaicho is usually O.K. with that kind of thing as long as the methods included match what we're already doing (doesn't splinter away from our basic taisabaki and combative tactics) in our style. Alot of our kihon waza BTW, is adapted from Yoshinkan, where Obata Kaicho was an uchi-deshi for approx. 7 years.

Conversely, there are some arts that I don't borrow from as well, for reasons of personal ethics and/or conflict of basic taisabaki principles and/or combative tactics.

I personally tend to refer to what we do mostly as Aikido because it is convenient and politically non-volatile. But, our style is usually thought of as a hard style (generally), and much of what we do falls into our catagory of Aikibujutsu as opposed to "Aikido", technically.

I can't speak for Obata Kaicho or our other instructors, but I for one am not overly concerned with hard seperations/definitions between terms like "jutsu/do", "Aikido/Aikijutsu", "Kendo/Kenjutsu". This need for black and white deliniations in terms is a western affectation, not a Japananese one.

Obata kaicho doesn't see Aikido as being a bunch of different styles, pre-war or post-war, hard or soft etc. etc. Just "good Aikido or bad Aikido". I have also developed a similar attitude over the years.

BTW, I'm afraid the Aikido/Aikibujutsu section of our home page is not in a very good state right now. I apologize for this, but we are nearing a major overhaul, server change and .com change. I'll announce something when revisions have been completed.

Hope this is helpful.

Popie, if you want to discuss e-budo policy or the manner in which you post to this forum, please do so in a PM - not in a new thread.

Regards,

[Edited by Nathan Scott on 10-26-2000 at 06:20 PM]

[Nathan Scott]

Thats fair enough.

Mr. Obata is my direct teacher, so I usually refer to him as "Sensei" both in personal correspondance (unless it is formal paperwork) and face to face. In fact, Sensei is usually the proper form of address to any instructor verbally anyway. When referring to him in writing publicly, I try to be conscious of using appropriate titles to *avoid* confusion! (yeah, right).

Mr. Obata is the Soke (family line/head) of Shinkendo, because that is the system he has chosen administratively to transmit Shinkendo. He is, in fact, Shodai Soke (first generation family of the family line).

He also founded a "-kai" (kenkyuKAI - research organization/society), which pretty much makes him the KAIcho (organization boss). If the term "-kan" is used instead (usually used to deliniate a hall, or house rather than something of a more global nature) the term KANcho is typically used - like in "YoshinKAN".

Since he has the license of Shihan, he can (and has in the past) opted to use the title "SoShihan", which kind of translates as "founding/comprehensive Shihan" (a little hard to translate that one off the cuff) at times when referring to styles/groups that he has created and/or heads.

If that isn't enough, the term "Kaiso" can also be used, which is not as well known in the west (thankfully) and actually is pretty convenient because it simply means "founder". Mr. Obata is the founder of both Shinkendo and the Aiki Buken, so that may be the least confusing choice of titles to use in his case the more I think about it.

Believe it or not I try to keep titles as simple as possible, but since we were talking about Mr. Obata strictly in reference to his work in Aikido/Aikibujutsu, I figured it would be most appropriate to use the Kaicho title.

I've (still) got a headache...





[Edited by Nathan Scott on 10-27-2000 at 11:53 AM]

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mr. Scott:

As always, clear, clean and to the point. Thanks again and I will check out the web site when things are up and running.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled mayhem.

Bruce

[Ron Tisdale]

Nathan-san,

Good posts, all of them. I hope you know of our appreciation for keeping this one of the best forums on E-Budo. This is not meant as a slight to anyone, just congrats on an excellent job. I also like the simplicity of your title definitions. I don't think I've ever heard them explained so well. When is your first book coming out? :)

Ron Tisdale

[Nathan Scott]

Thanks much for the kind words guys.

But I'm just trying to provide an atmosphere in which experienced members can discuss Budo comfortably, and without being heckled. Ya'll are the ones that make this forum interesting. Thanks for the contributions everyone.

I've actually got some topic ideas I'm anxious to throw up here for discussion if I can just find some spare time.

I also like the simplicity of your title definitions.

Oh, that's nice - I didn't know they would be that interesting. I went ahead and cleaned up the last post a bit more in hopes of avoiding misinterpretations. The only definition I do not have a simple translation for is SoShihan. Shihan you all know, and the kanji for "so" is (I believe) the same as that found in the new catch term (thanks Mr. Skoss) "Sogo" - comprehensive/complete. I've got the Nelsons here, but am a bit rushed at work. If anyone wants to take a stab at another non-literal translation of "SoShihan" be my guest.

I don't think I've ever heard them explained so well. When is your first book coming out?

Uhhh, I know your just kidding, but as long as you mentioned it...

I had the pleasure of being "significantly" involved in the production of a book already, and I'll tell you what - it's no picnic. :)

But, who knows - give me 20 years or so to learn something and maybe I'll give it a whack. Everone's doing it, right???

:D

Regards,

[Edited by Nathan Scott on 10-27-2000 at 12:15 PM]