Justified PPK Bashing?

[Jonathon T]

I was just curious, why so much ppk bashing? Is there a real saftey risk, like stories of blades snapping? If not I dont see why all the bashing, if thats all you can afford and treat it the same way others treat their 6,000 dollar swords then hey, what can you do, lol.
Thanks
Jonathon

[ulvulv]

The bashing is more a swordforum-thing, but nobody denies that you get lots of bang for the buck with a ppk. Unfortunately, it is not enough bang for the buck for those who:
are seriously into

A: Tameshigiri
B: Iai
C: Collecting display-pieces

All the other are quite satisfied.;)

[chrismoses]

They are what they are, cheap mass produced swords generally suitable for tameshigiri. What they aren't: beautiful, collectible or art. It's not bashing on them, it's just stating facts. No one faults a stock Honda Civic for not being able to out perform an F-40, they are different beasts designed for different tasks, available at vastly different price points. What's annoying is people who claim to be "collectors" who only have Chen blades.

Also, forum rules require first and last name, easiest is to throw it into your sig file so you don't have to remember it each time you post. Welcome to the board.

[Jonathon T]

I can understand both sides, I've just seen acouple of people say some pretty rough things, lol, just wondering the reasons. I didn't know if they had a reputation for breaking or anything like that. Has anyone heard any stories or them breaking?
Thank you for the welcome,
Jonathon Tanis

[Joseph Svinth]

Dang. And here I was, thinking you were talking about 7.65mm Walthers. (Nice firearms, dubious caliber.)

[ulvulv]

Originally posted by Jonathon T
I can understand both sides, I've just seen acouple of people say some pretty rough things, lol, just wondering the reasons. I didn't know if they had a reputation for breaking or anything like that. Has anyone heard any stories or them breaking?
Thank you for the welcome,
Jonathon Tanis

I guess that the "rough talk" you are referring to, is the discussions on swordforum, ppk has not been discussed much here. Why not ask directly those who are critical to this sword. But first take your time and read all the threads on ppk there, and you will get a better picture, and thorough explanations.

They are not known to break easily, it is the fittings that are known to be poor, actually worse than on a low range iaito, bulky tsuka, "flat" and lousy tsukaito, and poorly fitted saya, are some of the negative points.

But take your time, and read the threads.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
Dang. And here I was, thinking you were talking about 7.65mm Walthers. (Nice firearms, dubious caliber.)
I loved my PPK/S; I hated to part with it but I got an offer I couldn't refuse at the time.

It took me a few seconds to realize the question was about Paul Chen's "Practical Plus Katana."

I haven't actually handled one, but I, too, have heard complaints about the fittings. Some have suggested buying one and then replacing the furniture, but it seems to me that it would be cheaper to buy a Swordstore.com "Iaito That Cuts" (a poor choice of names, IMO) which is, I think, only a little more expensive than a PPK (the sword, not the pistol :) ) to begin with.

On the other hand, I've heard people say that while Chen's PPKs don't have great fittings, they do the job considering the price.

I think that's the key; cost +/- features } ability to meet needs = value.

[Charlie Kondek]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
Dang. And here I was, thinking you were talking about 7.65mm Walthers. (Nice firearms, dubious caliber.)

Me, too. I'm still sore that Q branch took away my Beretta .25 caliber "lady's handbag gun."

[TimothyKleinert]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
Some have suggested buying one and then replacing the furniture, but it seems to me that it would be cheaper to buy a Swordstore.com "Iaito That Cuts" (a poor choice of names, IMO) which is, I think, only a little more expensive than a PPK (the sword, not the pistol :) ) to begin with.
Well, a PPK costs around $300, but an "iaito that cuts" starts at around $1200. That's a significant difference for a new student. Now, if you wanted to replace everything on the PPK except the blade itself, Fred Lohman has a package for $1000 (I don't know if you can find things cheaper). So buying an "iaito that cuts" would be slightly cheaper.

[Ren Blade]

I heard of someone saying the Practical Katana is the "Practical Joke Katana". I thought that was pretty funny. I personally have one. I bought it before I started JSA. Right now I don't touch it much. It just sits on my sword stand. I just use my bokuto and borrowed a friend's Iaito til mine arrives in the mail. I have been told that the PPK is the "Low End" or "Entry Level" sword. Been told not to feel bad bout getting it. But to just move up from there. I have my eye on one of the bugei blades that I'm saving for probably get it next year. Plan on getting house right now.

[David T Anderson]

The point of the PPK [and PK for that matter] is that while you can do a great deal better in terms of looks and quality, you can't do better for the money.

I'm not aware of any stories about the PPK being unsafe or fragile however. There have been reports that the latest run of PPK has a lighter blade than previously, but whether or not that is true I don't know. You can mess up any sword if you use it hard enough and carelessly enough. Even a low quality sword should survive pretty well if you handle it carefully.

[Ren Blade]

Actually yes, the Practical Plus Katana is lighter than the Practical Katana. I have both. I bought the Practical Katana 4 years ago and just got the Practical Plus Katana this past January.

[glad2bhere]

Light cutting? Form work? I can't say that I have heard too many people disappointed with the product. I think the problems come in when people start pushing the performance envelope or expect a stellar polish. I mean for me it has always represented an entry-level sword during which time a person can make up their minds if they are cut out for serious sword work or not. If sword is your cup of tea then the next step is to save for a bit better blade- -- say $1000 to $2000US. My own weapon is from SEHYUN and it does just what I would expect a sword bought for about a grand would. ;)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[gendzwil]

I've only seen a couple of examples. They're worth the money but I don't think they're what most serious students want. For day to day practice, the fittings just don't cut it. I found them a little tip heavy, and didn't care for the the over-long tsuka on the plus. Most iaidoka would be better off buying a good iaito, and actually spending a bit more money on it.

[lehndal]

You get what you pay for; sometimes even a bit more. I have a PPK which I keep for tameshigiri only. I don’t use it for iaido or iaijutsu as neither the tsuka nor the balance (not to mention the saya) makes it suitable for that….. But otherwise, it seems very rugged.

For other use, I have a iaito and a shinken from Nine Circles. They are excellent value for money and have a nice balance making them a joy to use. But they do cost more than the PPK.

[Shimura]

Well seeing as how I'm currently in the market for shinken, I've been doing a bit of looking around. I've seen, and used the PK and PPK, and overall have not been impressed. As mentioned earlier the balance is off, and the fittings....well I like mine a bit more classy. I spent about $700 on my iaito so go figure. I have been looking at the Last Legend blades lately, on a suggestion from a friend, and for an economical choice they look pretty good. Now I haven't tried one out yet, but I plan to at the end of the month should Gene bring his to the seminar. I'll let everyone know how it goes, but from what I've heard and seen at least they sound great.

I have heard that the PPK and PK's have problems with the tsuka and mekugi, in that they often break during repeated use. Just what I've heard.

[chrismoses]

I don't know of anyone who has broken a PK or PPK during *normal* training. When Bugei first brought out their swords with their trademark really (relatively) long handle, there was much speculation that since the handle was longer than the tang, it was more likely to break off. Most of these people seemed to be unaware, despite their implied expertise on the subject, that many/most/all nihonto have always had handles longer than the tang, sometimes rather dramatically longer. If anyone has specific examples of broken Chen blades or their fittings I'd love to hear about it. Personally the closest that I've seen (but have seen personally on one of my own Chen blades and on another lower end Chen blade) was the unraveling of the low grade ito. In both cases this resulted in the bottom inch (or on my own swords case, several inches) of wrap coming clean off of the sword mid cut. Neither of these blades were from Bugei by the way, but were of the cheaper lines of Chen stuff.

[Moniteur]

Originally posted by David T Anderson
The point of the PPK [and PK for that matter] is that while you can do a great deal better in terms of looks and quality, you can't do better for the money.

I'm not aware of any stories about the PPK being unsafe or fragile however. There have been reports that the latest run of PPK has a lighter blade than previously, but whether or not that is true I don't know. You can mess up any sword if you use it hard enough and carelessly enough. Even a low quality sword should survive pretty well if you handle it carefully.

David,

I just traded an hanwei scottish court sword for one of the new chen tokugawa katana. The opportunity came, and I felt it would be easier to liquidate the Tokugawa later, than the court sword. If my guess is correct, its a PPK is nicer clothing. I have a Golden Oriole (old, number 28 on the nakago) and a 4th gen Practical Krowbar. In comparison, the blade is a little thinner than the Golden Oriole, but with less distal taper, and it is a little thinner than the PK, which has no distal taper. Of the three, the PK is actually the thickest blade. Over all, the blades are quite similar. The PK and Tokugawa nagasa are about 1/4" longer than the Oriole, and the PK has the most sori, then the Tokugawa, then the Oriole. The polish on the Tokugawa is better than the PK, and *different* than the Oriole - this oriole looks like the chen blades used to look before they got into the heavy etch and white hamon - the oriole is kind of a mat grey with a little colour to it. The Tokugawa fittings are a lot better than the PK, and not quite as nice as the oriole.

The tsuka is interesting. It tapers from front to back, in both width and thickness, which I like, and it follows the curve of the blade pretty well. far better than the PK or Oriole. The same is either fairly poor real skin, or incredibly good fake stuff, i can't tell which yet. The Menuki, unfortunately, are the crappy plastic flowers from the PK. The ito is the black leather from the musashi. Wrap is good, nice and tight, except it is a touch flat. for some reason they didn't see fit to include hishigami. apparently that must cost too much. on the whole, the Tsuka gets a B grade... maybe a B+.. It's nice and solid, no wiggle or rattle.

The saya is kind of a bummer.. It seems to be built off of the PK saya rather than the oriole or other saya. its looser around the monouchi than the pk or oriole saya i have, and I don't like the way the habaki fits it. It's not unsafe, but is a bit tight, and when it gives, it gives all at once with no real compression fit. The horn koiguchi and kojiri is pretty decent, though I suspect the kurikata is the plastic of the PK.. the sageo is decent, like that of the Oriole.

As far as handling goes, its a TON better than the PK, and I prefer it to the Oriole, though if the oriole tsuka were the same length, I'm not sure I would still feel the same. Tsuka is about 10.75" in length, which suits me much better than the 14" of the Oriole.

Overall, its fast and light, and I don't see any reason that it wouldn't perform as well as the Oriole in cutting. Niku is pretty minimal, but it is on the PK and Oriole as well, and the PK has been used for a couple of years on bamboo, and the Oriole for one, without problems. (Green bamboo, 2 to 3" diameter)..

In all, I think I got a pretty good deal, not sure I'd want to spend full price on one, but for say, $250.00 or so, it'd be a heck of a buy.

One of the problems I've seen with all the this vs. this talk at SFI is that a good deal of the people don't have a clue what they're talking about..

[glad2bhere]

Dear Chris:

".....One of the problems I've seen with all the this vs. this talk at SFI is that a good deal of the people don't have a clue what they're talking about.."

I don't discount your thought at all. I would also add that there is considerable subjectivity and not a little variance in grading performance. For instance, one could be forgiven for discounting your use of bamboo in favor of matt soaked and rolled to the same size. And I don't even want to get started about some of the more novel material some folks choose to cut with. I am not advocating a return to vivisectioning criminal corpses. Far from it. I am still trying to get my head around a post in which folks performed cuts on a deer carcass. However, it would be nice if there were a system of uniform cuts to a prescribed hierarchy of materials that might help to better guage performance. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce