Bush needs to fire.... [Archive]

tellner

05-07-2004, 01:23 AM

From the reports I've seen the rot isn't just a few isolated soldiers. It looks to be more widespread. With the new Pentagon matrix of "coercive interrogation" it seems that actions up to, although not necessarily including, the latest atrocities are part of our new doctrine. I also note that at least one of the "private contracting firms" - rhymes with unlawful enemy combatants - is still hiring interrogators for work in Baghdad. These people aren't bound by the UCMJ (which forbids mistreating prisoners), the Geneva convention (which forbids mistreating prisoners) or any sort of civil law.

We crossed a line here that we never should have. Even if Bush says "I'm sorry" a couple more times we've produced Al Qaeda's recruiting videos for the next twenty years. And we deserve it. Look at how we've treated our prisoners. Note that Jessica Lynch and that "contractor" who escaped captivity were treated humanely and reasonably well.

There's really no room for spin here. We were the bad guys, and we've convinced the entire Muslim world (and much of the rest of it) that we are. In the current wars my country has demonstrated that it is utterly unconcerned with treaties we've signed and basic human rights. Photo ops of US troops painting a few schools or posing with smiling Iraqis aren't going to change that.

KhawMengLee

05-07-2004, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by dave501
Rumsfield started an inquiry into the matter back in Jan as soon as allegations were made, so I'm confused why anyone would feel Rumsfield is not doing the proper things (other then beong a Bush hating partisan).

I think that why the outcry is there. Rumsfield knew as far back as Jan and human rights groups have been making reports since last year. Why has it taken him so long to react?, the world is asking. And why is he only taking action now when the information has leaked?

The Senate is concerned with this because:

1) It makes the US look bad because it looks like the Govt. knew about the abuse and did nothing about it?

2) Why has Rumsfield done nothingabout this for so long?

JGApprentice

05-07-2004, 05:29 AM

Originally posted by Gene Williams
Bush needs to fire...a spray of low yield tactical nukes (neutron bombs, lots of 'em) in air bursts over Iraq, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia, making every effort not to harm Israel. Islam has declared war on the Judaeo-Christian West...that is what this is about...HELLO!!! I took a railroad flare to a yello jacket nest the other day. Now, there may have been some friendly yello jackets in there but, know what, I just didn't feel inclined to stick my head in the nest and ask:D

Usually, I dont get into political discussions at all since past mishaps. And I am the newbie here. But you're kidding right? lol. Did you also give a thumbs up for all the prisoners who were brutally assaulted and stripped naked? :D

Starkjudo

05-07-2004, 07:24 AM

Humiliated != torture.
Humiliated != physical abuse.

We need a reality check on the whole thing.

Bushi Jon

05-07-2004, 07:54 AM

Though I do not believe in Genes Message those soilders did what the Iraqi Army was ordererd to do the only diffirence is they did it on there own. Listen you get information out of people by extracting it not by giving them TV and hot meals. I do not agree with the placing of the guys in sex positions that was just wrong. The guy they placed on the box was a great way to get info sorry my opion. We have to remember not all Arabs are bad but the one that are F____Ug them.

Bod

05-07-2004, 08:04 AM

Well Rob, you may find lying naked at the bottom of a pile of naked men enjoyable, but not everyone enjoys it.

Even Rugby players wear clothes when rucking.

tellner

05-07-2004, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
Why, because he didn't use his psychic powers to deduce what was going on several thousand miles away while he was doing his job in Washington DC.

Obviously, Rumsfield coordinated the whole thing and was taking all the pictures. :rolleyes:

It's his job to make sure that things like that don't happen. If they do it's he's the one who gets to take responsibility. If he permitted it, ignored the warnings and created the culture in which it was permissible as seems to be the case he deserves much worse.

And for those who say that you don't make an omlette without breaking eggs or it really isn't that bad think for a minute or two. In a war sixty years ago we had a lot more at stake. We also treated prisoners according to the laws and treaties we signed. We've decided that that's not important any more. Beating prisoners is fine now. Using "physical interrogation" is fine as long as we don't call it torture. So are assaults of sexual nature. Putting it in the hands of private companies that are responsible to nobody is fine.

Even if you think it's fine think for just a second or two of the consequences. We've made implacable enemies out of the people we're supposed to be doing the whole "hearts and minds" thing with. We've done Al Qaeda's recruiting work for them for the next thirty years. We've made allies in the Muslim world hate us and allies in the West shun us.

If this is what we do how should we expect to be done by in turn?

If "it's evil" isn't good enough for you how about "it's stupid and helps the enemy"?

George Kohler

05-07-2004, 08:43 AM

Quote from John Lindsey

As we enter this election year here in the USA, I want set a few rules in regards to messages posted in our forums.

1. All political discussions will stay in the Member’s Lounge only.

2. Please respect everyone’s political views and opinions.

3. Do not post childish comments about any of the candidates, cabinet members, elected officials, and their families. This includes the misuse of their names in derogatory attempts at misguided humor.

4. Don’t piss me off

If you break a rule, your post will be deleted. Do it again and you will loose access rights to the forum.

I already left a reminder yesterday, but someone still broke one of the rules. That post was deleted. One more time and he will loose access to this forum.

Shitoryu Dude

05-07-2004, 08:44 AM

When a high level manager discovers that some of his employees are doing illegal crap, the only time you fire the manager is when he knows about it and lets it go on. It is the bosses duty to resolve such situations, not take blame for them.

:beer:

Starkjudo

05-07-2004, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by Bod
Well Rob, you may find lying naked at the bottom of a pile of naked men enjoyable, but not everyone enjoys it.

Even Rugby players wear clothes when rucking.

Don't be stupid, Jonathon. I never said it was enjoyable. It's obviously humilating.

But it's a far cry from getting your balls ripped off, put feet first into a meat grinder, beaten, choked, electrocuted, chemical torture, or any other form of phtsical punishment I'd rank under "torture." Which, as far as reports show, never happened to any of these bozos.

not-I

05-07-2004, 09:32 AM

The Bush administration is one of the most openly cynical in modern American history, and Rumsfeld is the pure embodiment of that spirit. After all his misanthropic remarks and policies, depriving people of basic human rights by deeming them in essence non-human ("illegal combatants"), contemplating using nukes, etc. it is no surprise that his macchiavellian world-view has affected DOD policy, leading to an "anything goes" view of war and occupation. But his fantasies about a "modern military" and gross incompetence in handling the occupations of both Afghanistan and Iraq have led to the current quagmire and that should have been more than enough reason for him to step down or get the sack. After having had to listen to all his arrogant double-talk through the past few years, it's nice to finally see him in the hot-seat, but i doubt he's going anywhere. His ego is too massive for him to resign, and Bush (as usual) is too deathly afraid of admitting a mistake, especially in an election year, to fire him.

And just to point it out again, Iraq has little to do with the "war on terror." As Rumsfeld's buddy and fellow warmonger Dick Cheney said in 1998: "The good Lord didn't see fit to put oil and gas only where there are democratically elected regimes friendly to the United States. Occasionally we have to operate in places where, all things considered, one would not normally choose to go. But, we go where the business is."

This is about cashing in (remember Halliburton) and world domination, baby. If you doubt this, just check out the kind of stuff neo-cons like Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz discuss in their speakeasy:
New American Century (http://www.newamericancentury.org/)

Oh yeah, and don't forget that wind changes directions: Rumsfeld bio (http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/usa/donald-rumsfeld/). Be sure to check out the nice photo of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam.

gozanryu

05-07-2004, 11:45 AM

Gotta love the armchair quarter backing guys! I think a little perspective is needed on this issue. What happened to the Iraqui prisoners was bad, un-called for, etc. etc. "Brutal", hmmmmm. . . . I dont think so. Humiliating, Definitely. It (the treatment) is obviously not acceptable in any definition, BUT, don't make it to be more than it is. And as far as Rumsfield is concerned, it is quite interesting how the opposistion wants to hold him soley accountable for this. Laughable really. Interestingly enough the BRIGADIER General in direct command of those units first acts included crying, getting a lawyer, and going on a damage control TV Blitz. It of course did not include: Taking responsibility, reporting to her boss etc. Perspective folks.

tellner

05-07-2004, 11:58 AM

We also note the case of the civilian covered in feces and kicked to death by Marines, an even larger backlog of abuse cases that the human rights groups have been trying to get action on for months. If he knew what was going on he's a war criminal.

This isn't "armchair generalship" it's basic human rights and decency. Like I say, even if you don't have any ethics or morals beyond "Kill the Ay-rabs" at least think a little bit about consequences. We've screwed up badly here. I doubt we'll be able to salvage anything from this PR debacle.

G. Zepeda

05-07-2004, 12:39 PM

Looks like he is stepping up to the plate to take the blame:

"These events occurred on my watch. As Secretary of Defense, I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility,"

KhawMengLee

05-07-2004, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by Starkjudo
Don't be stupid, Jonathon. I never said it was enjoyable. It's obviously humilating.

But it's a far cry from getting your balls ripped off, put feet first into a meat grinder, beaten, choked, electrocuted, chemical torture, or any other form of phtsical punishment I'd rank under "torture." Which, as far as reports show, never happened to any of these bozos.

Erm...I dunno about that dude. The reports I've read stated that they were tortured, as in beaten, sodomised with tube lights and batons, subjected to sleep deprivation, etc.

and no this wasn't from AlJazeera. BBC, Yahoo news , etc have all stated this.

gozanryu

05-07-2004, 02:03 PM

We also note the case of the civilian covered in feces and kicked to death by Marines, an even larger backlog of abuse cases that the human rights groups have been trying to get action on for months. If he knew what was going on he's a war criminal.

What I am suggesting is, even though this is a bad thing, it must be kept in perspective. There are 140000 troops on the ground over there, and BY FAR, BY MILES, the MAJORITY, the VAST majority of them are doing the right thing, everyday. What those idiots did is indeed a bad thing, with far reaching consequences, but is not a reflection of the whole.. However, I would rather take my chances in a US Military prison ANY DAY, than in an ARAB military prison. You are suggesting that Rumsfield had prior knowledge of these problems, and did nothing to preclude the situation. I do not agree with that inferrence. If for no other reason, it would be political suicide for him to have prior knowledge and take no action. And Mr. Khaw (i got it right this time!) Mr. Rumsfield taking responsibility for things that occured on his watch is my point. At least HE is taking responsibilty, unlike the tearful Commanding BRIGADIER General running for the hills with her tail between her legs. Also, you might want to do a little research on "acceptable" information extraction methods. The reports you read did not say "they, et al" were beaten and sodomized. They said that one of the prisoners MAY have been etc. Perspective again. We killed well over 100000 Iraquis the first time we went there. 100000.

And by the way, I think I have ethics AND morals, but I will say this. In a war zone, in a war, when the enemy is KILLING my buddies and trying to kill me, I become less than reasonable when the question of civility comes up. It is not about killing the "Ay-rabs" it is about killing the enemy. Thats what you do in a war, you kill as many of them as quickly and efficiently as you can so that they lose the ability to kill you.

What did people think, that we were gonna fly over there, drop some "humane" bombs and get away unscathed. (with all the problems involved with war, including the subject of this thread) Did they think the Tyrannical regime that ran Iraq through fear and violence was just a Despot and his sons? Was it not clear that in order to reign with that can of terror, the leader might need some fanatical followers willing to KILL people to keep their power?

It is not supposed to be palatable and pretty, it is a war. The violence, suffering and misery is the warning not to do it, or to end it as quickly as possible. Walk a mile in the shoes of a Marine or Soldier on the ground. SO yes, it is "armchair Generalship" because you are not the one bleeding.

CMM

05-07-2004, 02:17 PM

"What did people think, that we were gonna fly over there, drop some "humane" bombs and get away unscathed..."

No, people (i.e., me) thought that we would fly over there, drop zillions of "mean" bombs, and then conduct the subsequent occupation with some level of dignity and respect for human rights conventions and agreements that we are signatory to.

We thought that we wouldn't take any active measures to actually make things worse than they needed to be.

Justifying such gross abuses in the name of "war" is disingenuous and simpleminded.

heatMiser

05-07-2004, 02:39 PM

From a purely personal perspective, everyone concerned with the photos, up to and including Rumsfeld should be fired. People can't be allowed to do that to other people for any reason.

From an objective political point of view, Rumsfeld knows what war is like, and he knew before getting involved in iraq that the US would need an absolutely clean and impeccable record on human rights and treatment of all iraqis in order to keep the moral high ground. (This from the point of view of iraqi citizens). Rumsfeld has no control over what happens in the field, in the public areas of iraq, where the situation is essentially uncontrollable, and so is not personally accountable there. But in a US Army run prison, photos were taken by US soldiers of uniformed US soldiers mistreating Iraqi prisoners under their control and care. He is responsible there. He should have forseen the possibility that such evidence could appear, and taken pre-emptive action to prevent it. But as they have told the media, the soldiers concerned recieved no training or solid direction on how to treat prisoners. They should have. They didn't. They obviously didn't understand the risks they took by creating a permanent record of their crimes, but they should have.

Rumsfeld is not responsible for what happened, and it is not a question of whether the action is justifiable militarily, or under the Geneva Conventions. He simply should have taken steps to ensure that this easily forseealbe situation did not come to pass, and he did not. Therefore he should resign.

On a side note, If Iraq hadn't already been having its worst period of violence since the war began, I believe we would clearly see the effect such images had on the Iraqi public. As the country is already in a state of violent unrest, the impact is hidden. But it is there, and its effect will slowly become apparent over time. The appearance in future of the videotapes, which is probably inevitable, will make things much, much worse, and the US is running out of public figures wgho can apologise for it. It's possible that Rumsfeld will keep his job until the administration is sure all of the existing evidence is accounted for, and then take the fall for all of it.

Lee Mc'pherson

05-07-2004, 03:00 PM

Iraq as far as it's people were concerned had no more to worie about from the west they had allready lost in 1991 then one day they wake up to the melodic sound of bombs (in the thousands) coming down on them. Then to top it all off after they have burried there dead and found new homes they get this massive force ( 140000 right?) in there homes telling them what to do and when to do it with curfews and martial law. So what happens? Some of them decide to fight back , and how excatly are they going to do this? Well gorrila warfare ( like the kind taught by the U.S. military to alot of countries around the globe by the way) as it is the only effective way they could possibly have to fight ( i doubt anyone on this forum would really consider that the 2000-3000 armed Iraqis would go head up with the 140000). But the boys and girls of the red,white and blue are over there to bring freedom to these people away from there homes and families and at constant risk from unseen enemies, they have pride and honor ( and so they damn well should have they are the sons and daughters of people who not so long ago had to fight for freedom and human rights) and so they first get hurt that the very people they are stiking there necks out for are the ones taking shots at them and then after a while they get angry and decide enough is enough so they try to do something about it but the red haze of anger doesn't allow for a clear head and so these proud sons and daughters do on to the people the very things that they were supposedly sent there to stop...
Then you get the 15 year old son who has seen his father dragged naked on a leash and locked away with no news of him , picking up a gun and going to war with that same red haze of anger.....

Viscious bloody circle isn't it ?

not-I

05-07-2004, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by heatMiser
From an objective political point of view, Rumsfeld knows what war is like [...]

From an objective point of view, neither Rumsfeld, nor Cheney, nor George W. Bush himself, know what war is like. None of them saw active combat.

If the label "armchair generals" fits anywhere, then here.

Collin Powell, the only person in the Bush administration to have personally experienced war, lastly as a four-star general himself, seemed the only one reluctant to invade Iraq. Although he dutifly gave that highly entertaining powerpoint presentation at the U.N., he was subsequently publicly snubbed by Rumsfeld and had the State Department's authority in the matter whittled away to virtual irrelavance. If Bush gets reelected, i doubt Powell will be available for a second term, though as a good soldier, he will probably site health or family reasons. He would likely be replaced by yet another neo-con world-domination guy with Halliburton or Exxonmobile connections, which would make Bush cabinet 2 so far to the right of mainstream conservativism, i think we could basically get ready for armageddon.

Having watched some of Rumsfeld's testimony at the Congressional hearing now, it seems he's spent a lot of time pretending not to hear questions and using his microphone skills to basically dodge the ones he did hear, although to be fair, he did pay some lip-service to being sorry about what happened. My favorite moment was when Rumsfeld was getting really grilled by a Republican congressman (Taylor, i think, who saw a pattern in Rumsfeld's behavior of not informing Congress) and almost lost his cool.

heatMiser

05-07-2004, 03:31 PM

I didn't mean he knew about it first hand, just that he knew it would be dirty. And that said dirtiness would make for very bad PR.

Gene McGloin

05-07-2004, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by Starkjudo
Don't be stupid, Jonathon. I never said it was enjoyable. It's obviously humilating. But it's a far cry from getting your balls ripped off, put feet first into a meat grinder, beaten, choked, electrocuted, chemical torture, or any other form of phtsical punishment I'd rank under "torture." Which, as far as reports show, never happened to any of these bozos.

Those acts are covered under the U.N. "Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment", a treaty which the U.S. signed, but took reservations to. Maybe we reserved the right to degrade and humilate people?

Gene McGloin

gozanryu

05-07-2004, 04:01 PM

"Justifying such gross abuses in the name of "war" is disingenuous and simpleminded"

Well, I guess I am lucky I DID NOT justify ANY abuses. I said it must be taken in perspective, to not do so would be disingenuous and simplleminded, would it not?

Gene Williams

05-07-2004, 04:30 PM

Ken, I have already tried to explain to these self-righteous ninnies that this is a war. I didn't see the networks showing the pictures of people jumping out of the WTC towers. They said it would be "too upsetting." Oh, but how they jump at any pics that would embarrass the US and Bush. Oh, and all you punks who say you support the troops but not the war. Do you have any idea how full of crap you are? What happened to those towel heads in Iraq is nothing compared to what they did to our people. Why aren't you making an uproar over that? Could it be that because deep down you think they deserved it for being over there? Could it be that you rejoice at American deaths and bad propaganda because the truth is that you are men without a country and welcome anything that serves your own self-aggrandizing purposes? I think so. You are little better than traitors and I would love to command the firing squad that sent you off to Allah:D

John Connolly

05-07-2004, 05:08 PM

Gene W,
Don't make me come in there!

Gene Williams

05-07-2004, 05:15 PM

Please do...you're welcome anytime.

John Connolly

05-07-2004, 05:46 PM

of patchouli and incense on your brand new SS dress uniform.

"I didn't see the networks showing the pictures of people jumping out of the WTC towers. They said it would be 'too upsetting.'"-- I did. What TV were you watching? FOX? That seems to be your only news source.

"Oh, but how they jump at any pics that would embarrass the US and Bush."-- Again, the myth of the liberal media. These photos are TRUTH. Our dead soldiers are REALITY. Torture is HAPPENING.

"Oh, and all you punks who say you support the troops but not the war. Do you have any idea how full of crap you are? What happened to those towel heads in Iraq is nothing compared to what they did to our people." -- Do you mean what happened in NY and DC because of a handful of Saudis? How does that make the citizenry of Iraq deserving of torture or the horrors of war? And by the way, many "punks" that support the troops--but not the war are former soldiers or have soldiers that are dear to them.

"Why aren't you making an uproar over that?"-- See above.

"Could it be that because deep down you think they deserved it for being over there? Could it be that you rejoice at American deaths and bad propaganda because the truth is that you are men without a country and welcome anything that serves your own self-aggrandizing purposes?"-- Wrong. No. You are the man without a country. Your hate isn't American. Every one of us complaining loves our country, and wants American actions to live up to American ideals.

"I think so."-- You don't think at all.

"You are little better than traitors and I would love to command the firing squad that sent you off to Allah."-- Wow. You really do love your countrymen! Did it occur to you that you are rejoicing at the thought of murdering Americans, so you will feel justified about the murder of Arabs.

Gene W., you would make a good "agent" for the left, because you lend an air of, shall we say, moronic, hatefilled, xenophobic, ignorant, nazi-like creepiness to every political thread you enter, and by aligning yourself with more conservative viewpoints, you do them a serious injustice. You see, when someone of a more centrist or conservative bent writes something concise and well thought out about the war, and you say "I agree", you pretty much just ruined whatever that guy had to say.

Gene Williams

05-07-2004, 05:52 PM

:shot:

John Connolly

05-07-2004, 05:54 PM

Thanks for hammering in my point.

Juan Perez

05-07-2004, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by tellner
the latest atrocities are part of our new doctrine...

1. Sir, you obviously don't know our doctrine. That is not your own fault if you don't currently serve, or have served. If you have, I'm surprised at this comment. This problem doesn't constitute the vast majority of the men and women (your own neighbors?) that actually execute our Commander and Chief's orders through their military service. I'd rather be captured by an American soldier 1,000 times before a member of any Arab militant, or military group.

Originally posted by tellner
We crossed a line here that we never should have. Even if Bush says "I'm sorry" a couple more times we've produced Al Qaeda's recruiting videos for the next twenty years. And we deserve it.

2. So, in essence, nothing has changed. Tell me when, since 9/11, were we seen as the "good guy" by Islamic Jihadists who only want for our complete destruction?

Originally posted by tellner
Note that Jessica Lynch and that "contractor" who escaped captivity were treated humanely and reasonably well.

3. Sir, you have neither the access, nor clearance to know what happened to Jessica Lynch. I'll tell you this much ... it's not in the book. You have the luxury of not knowing. And why don't we make the most humiliating facts of our soldier's capture public for you and all to see? For, the same reason that the treatment of the Iraqi prisioners is wrong ... human dignity. And, really, you don't need to know.

Originally posted by tellner
We were the bad guys, and we've convinced the entire Muslim world (and much of the rest of it) that we are.
4. I agree and ... refer to number 2.

Originally posted by tellner
In the current wars my country has demonstrated that it is utterly unconcerned with treaties we've signed and basic human rights. Photo ops of US troops painting a few schools or posing with smiling Iraqis aren't going to change that.
5. You must assume that what CNN is showing you is absolute reality. The truth ... the truth is out there where John Lindsey has had the guts to go. Take care, Sir. And nothing personal ... I'm a soldier who lives this stuff up close and personal. I don't need the media to paint a picture for me. God Bless you and your family.

gozanryu

05-07-2004, 07:35 PM

"U.S. forces clashed with militiamen loyal to al-Sadr Friday, killing 23 Iraqis"

What is your point here Todd? I have seen allot of words thrown around in this thread. My favorite being "atrocity"
Well, I can see why you think these acts are atrocities. Because you are a westerner! You really dont tnink that what those idiots did is an ATROCITY do you? Maybe machine gunning a pregnant Israeli and her kids is an atrocity, neh? Again, PERSPECTIVE here folks. Since you are so up on the news, our Arab friends now say that it is OK to MURDER those guys in Egypt because the USA HUMILIATED those Arab men, See, they are willing to MURDER people for, even what they call, HUMILIATION. I really think you (Todd) have some good points, but your sense of balance seems to be off. I know that you know what atrocity and torture REALLY mean, why are you toting the political agenda? Whem you go to war, and it goes badly, or becomes protracted, or you have bad guys in your ranks (like a guy who throws nades' into a command tent, and claims religious differences) you CANNOT take your ball and go home. You fight, and kill the enemy. All day, every day until they are all dead, or your CO sends you home. Simple. If you go outside the rules, you are punished. Atrocity? No, not in my book. The Atrocity is the lefts usage of this to demoralize our troops and as a political tool when men and women are BLEEDING over there so that you dont look out your office window one day and see the business end of a 767, or be sitting at Starbucks enjoying your Soy Latte when some wacko walks in, sits down next to your wife and smiles. Then pulls the pin on 40 pounds of C-4. Perspective.

tellner

05-07-2004, 07:47 PM

My point? The brass knew that stupid and illegal things were going on. They had plenty of warning. They chose to ignore it and may even have made those practices a matter of policy. What happened was shameful, pure and simple. Even if you believe that the only good Arab is a dead one, a view which at least one prominent poster here subscribes to, it's felony stupid to ignore things that will turn neutrals into implacable enemies and turn our remaining allies against us.

gozanryu

05-07-2004, 09:27 PM

Todd, your point is taken. You keep mentioning killing Arabs. To be clear, I am all for killing ANYONE or GROUP who is all about killing me (or YOU, for that matter)You are making many of your statements as "fact", when they are not. You are theorizing and assuming. You do not know that "they" chose to ignore anything. We know that there were concerns voiced early on, to the people in charge. We know that as soon as the photos came out (within 48 hours) an investigation was launched. I certainly agree with you on the premise of your argument. Stupid is as stupid does to be sure. I just view it as quite unfair and "simple minded" to make rash generalizations about a set of circumstances that you, or most of us, have no corporal knowledge of. As an example:
"A British television station reported Friday that a young Iraqi girl held at Abu Ghraib was stripped naked and beaten while her brother heard her scream from another cell"

So the %^$# what Todd? A British (nameless) paper? Arab papers have been running those fake porno pictures as fact even after they were debunked, and the original porn site that owned them, took them down.

Do you REALLY believe British Soldiers would strip and beat a "young girl" ??? DO you? Don't you think that MIGHT be a little sensationalized? You most likely do, but it supports your argument, so you post that drivel here as fact. Do you see what I mean? And as far as Brits are concerned, their soldiers are the Best kind, the kind that will take a bullet for you in a heartbeat. And yeah, I can see them giving a pretty good !!! whippin to someone if conditions warranted. But NOT TO A LITTLE GIRL!

I am on your side whether you choose to see it or not. It's just that SOMEONE has to do the "bad stuff" in life. Those idots cost us, they will cost us lives, but THEY are not representative of America, or its values.The world knows that. The iraquis who have running water and medicine and no fear of reprisal from a murderous Dictator know that. You should know that, and SAY it, in my opinion.

Did you know in WW2 entire platoons of German soldiers where mysteriously found shot to death by the Allied leberators of many concentration camps? How brutal eh? Yeah, well I would have been spinning fresh barrels on the Browning .30's for that one. I am talking about perspective bro.

JGApprentice

05-07-2004, 10:13 PM

I am a newbie here, and don't know what's going on here. But reading from some of the topics and its posts, is this board Anti-Arab/Muslim on the majority side? :confused:

Soulend

05-07-2004, 10:45 PM

I don't think the majority of members are.

JGApprentice

05-08-2004, 12:03 AM

So who here are skinheads then? Is there a local dojo where I can join? :D

Juan Perez

05-08-2004, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by JGApprentice
I am a newbie here, and don't know what's going on here. But reading from some of the topics and its posts, is this board Anti-Arab/Muslim on the majority side? :confused:

Labels, I love them. Anti-Arab, Anti-Jew, Anti-Christian, Anti-Immigrant ... how about Anti-Stupidity and Anti-Ignorance. Not everything fits in a box. It's possible to not like what Arab governments are doing/stand-for and still be a good person. It's also OK to be angry. Get over the labeling and attack the issues themselves.

Oh, I forgot to add "skinheads"... do you like to label everything?