KeNpo vs KeMpo

[BULLDOG]

KeNpo vs. KeMpo

What are the differences?

[1] In history.
[2] In style.
[3] In MA doctrine – philosophy.

Appreciate the input.

Ed Barton

[Chuck.Gordon]

Aside from organizational rifts and lineages, there's not technically, not much diff. between the words keNpo' and keMpo, other than the way the word was romanized from Japanese.

KeMpo is probably a more correct (at least more contemporary) romanization.

Now, that aside, it looks to me like most organizations using the N variant are connected to or descended in some way from the Ed parker dynasty.

Folks using the M variant could come from a large handful of other backgrounds.

Kempo is a generic word used in budo to describe systems of striking; and some budo etymologists and historians would actually say kempo is a subset of jujutsu, which is often defined as a generic term for many un- or lightly-armed arts.

Most Kenpo in America comes through Parker, via his time in Hawaii under Chow, who was a student of (amongst others) Mitose. All quite controversial figures in their own rights.

Some Okinawan systems use the word kempo, and Mitose may or may not have had a connection with the Okinawan te arts.

Funakoshi used Dai Nihon Kempo to describe an early variation of the karate he taught, and I've seen some Goju Ryu folks use the term as well.

Looking at Japan proper, some systems of budo there incorporate subsets of kempo (Kashima Shinryu, for one) that probably have no connection with the Okinawan te arts a'tall.

Allegedly the arts taught by Chin Gempin were called kempo as well ...

Confusing? A bit, maybe. It's what comes of folks picking up generic terms and using them as proper names, I guess.

Chuck

[X_plosion]

AFAIK, The situation with the Mitose lineage was simply a matter of using romanization to identify who was teaching what.

It seems that Mitose used the name "Kempo Jujutsu" to describe his art generically. At least that's the title of his book. His style's proper name is Kosho (Old Pine tree) Ryu Kempo or something like that.

Later, when Chow began to make his own innovations to what he'd learned, he used the "N" instead of "M" for the name. He also used the "Karate" term to differentiate it from Mitose's teachings. Eventually, Chow's style would eventually become known as "Kara-Ho Kenpo Karate".

History then repeated itself, when Parker got separated from Chow because of relocation to the mainland. His teachings also evolved and became known as "Ed Parker's American Kenpo".

The phenomenon has repeated itself over and over again. It seems it mainly is a practicality in that lineage so as to sort out and easily identify what school/organization/style the person in question belongs to.

Perhaps other members could shed more light on this.

[Nathan Scott]

I'd love to see a bit more standardization on the romanizing of these two terms. As many of you may know, "kenpo" (using different kanji) can also mean "sword law/method", and is an alternate term for traditional swordsmanship. "Ken" (sword) has always been romanized with this spelling, so "kenpo" is the only logical romization that makes sense.

"Kempo" (fist law/method; different kanji) has been romanized with both spellings, but it would be great to see it just romanized as kempo to avoid confusion with sword arts. Romanization standards for Japanese changes from time to time (like "jiujitsu" to "jujutsu"), but since there is no dictionary standard for kenpo and kempo, it would be great to see a move towards standardization of spelling among users of the term.

I know this may not be addressing the specific question directly, but given the name of the thread thought I'd volunteer this point of view, FWIW.

Regards,

[Michael Bland]

The only people who care about this argument are non-Japanese speakers. The romanization is really irrelevant. M or N makes no difference since the original words do not use romanization to be written. The pronunciation is the same, and if you are talking about the same art, then the characters are likely the same unless someone got creative.

I wouldn't worry about it.

[dveed]

Kempo is the way Kenpo (Œ?–@) is pronounced. This strange phenomenon occurs because Japanese speakers place their tongues on the back of their teeth and close their lips when pronouncing this sound. The attempts to transliterate the different Japanese writing methods into English have caused many difficulties. Mitose's book where Kenpo was spelled Kempo was due to a printing error - later corrected. Okinawans use Kenpo, also. Master Oyata?fs instructor, Saikou Shihan(?Å?‚ Žt”Í) Shigeru Nakamura, spelled Kenpo correctly in his English transliterations. An early film taken in 1968, shows Master Oyata doing Kata in Kansas. A makeshift title spells Kenpo correctly at this time. Later, Master Oyata?fs students spelled the name as it is pronounced; due, to lack of familiarity with Japanese grammar. You won't find Kempo in Japanese/English kanji dictionaries. It is Kenpo or the more correct Kenpou. This is a subject only of interest to westerners and Japanese scholars. Hombu is really Honbu - same mumbling of the 'n'. Westerners can moan and gripe but they cannot claim they know Japanese grammer better than the Japanese themselves. Kenpo is the spelling educated people would use. :eek:
D'veed Natan

[BULLDOG]

Thank you for your responses.

May I add an additional inquiry?

Are there any differences how they perform their techniques?

Thank you again for your responses.

Ed Barton

[Nathan Scott]

The only people who care about this argument are non-Japanese speakers. The romanization is really irrelevant.

Yes, that's pretty much the point. The romanized version of the Japanese language is not Japanese, or even for Japanese. It is for non-Japanese. Since most of us don't read, write or include kanji or kana in our writings, it is necessary for us to find clear and unique romanized spellings that indicate the intended Japanese language kanji.

I'm not sure why you would not be interested in being a part of standardizing terms such as this, as this benefits our field directly as non-Japanese martial artists.

[tsurashi shondo]

Originally posted by BULLDOG
Thank you for your responses.

May I add an additional inquiry?

Are there any differences how they perform their techniques?

Thank you again for your responses.

Ed Barton

Well, being that these are different arts, the techniques are of course different as well.
I will BROADLY generalise. All the arts called Kenpo/Kempo are fundamentally "striking" arts, though there are throwing and joint-locking techniques within many of these styles, to varying degrees.
The Okinawan/Japanese arts using the moniker are essentially like Karate, with what might be thought of as a distinct Chinese influence. Do a web search for "Chuan-fa".

The American systems (Kara-ho, Parker's American, Practical Kenpo-Karate, Tracy's Kenpo, Kanzen etc.) are all derived more or less from one or two teaching lineages in Hawaii in the last century. These systems tend
to emphasize multiple strikes in rapid succession, often finishing the opponent with a reaping or throwing/locking technique that often ends with a maiming elbow or neck break.(very agressive mindset)
These syles combine elements of Karate, Kung-fu, Jujutsu and Phiipino stick/knife fighting. Truly an eclectic American style.

Shorinji Kempo is a modern art founded in Japan, with the intent of recreating the spirit of the Chinese (Shorinji = Shoalin) temple styles, while promoting their art as a quasi-spiritual path for peace/universalism.
It still looks very much like a Japanese style,
with a neat combination of striking and throwing elements.
I repeat, these are very GENERAL descriptions,
and some of the facts (especially with the American styles) have been disputed for years.
Hope this helps, and If anyone can add to or better illuminate these desciptions, I'd appreciate that too.

[dveed]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
I'm not sure why you would not be interested in being a part of standardizing terms such as this, as this benefits our field directly as non-Japanese martial artists.
Nathan,
I am not against standardizing terms. They already are standardized. Kenpo's use in the Japanese sword arts is so small as to be almost non-existant. It's use in what we do is widely used. When you say Kenpo to a Japanese martial artist he does not think of the sword arts - he thinks of a Chinese based fighting art. If you look in the ODP listings, you will find all of the Kempo sites are listed under Kenpo - the search word Kempo taking you to the Kenpo listings. In Okinawa, Master Odo called it Ryukyu Hon Kenpo as does his son... Master Nakamura called it Okinawa Kenpo, as does his son... we have Ryukyu Kenpo... Oyata originally called it Ryukyu Kenpo... Jefferie's English/Japanese Japanese/English online dictionary calls it Kenpo. The list goes on. If Mel the cook on 'Alice' wants to call it Kempo. so be it. It, still doesn't make it right. Galileo said the Earth went around the sun. He was forced to recant by the powers that be. It didn't make him wrong and it didn't make them right. It made them look like fools at a later date when knowledge of the subject was more wide spread.

[dveed]

Originally posted by BULLDOG
Are there any differences how they perform their techniques?
Ed Barton
Ed,
There are many differences and variations in the way teachers stress what they are teaching. A style is, after all, merely the reflection of an instructor's personality and his knowledge (or lack thereof) of the subject matter he is attempting to instill in his students.

[Mekugi]

Just you wait 'til Kehoe gets here.

[Matt Wolfson]

Originally posted by dveed
Nathan,
I am not against standardizing terms. They already are standardized. Kenpo's use in the Japanese sword arts is so small as to be almost non-existant. It's use in what we do is widely used. When you say Kenpo to a Japanese martial artist he does not think of the sword arts - he thinks of a Chinese based fighting art. If you look in the ODP listings, you will find all of the Kempo sites are listed under Kenpo - the search word Kempo taking you to the Kenpo listings. In Okinawa, Master Odo called it Ryukyu Hon Kenpo as does his son... Master Nakamura called it Okinawa Kenpo, as does his son... we have Ryukyu Kenpo...

Hello,
Having practiced Odo's style for many years and have met and practiced with him personally, I would like to know what has happened to his organization? I always knew the style as Okinawan Kenpo and was under the impression that Odo was a student of Nakamura and was teaching Nakamuras style. The name Ryukyu Hon Kenpo is new to me. Could you explain this to me in more detail?
Matt

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Natan,

I'm not trying to argue as to the popularity of the two arts, or which ones should have the rights to the spelling based on first usage. I'm simply pointing out that there are two Japanese terms within the same field that are being spelled the same (kenpo), and a standard for differentiating the two terms does not currently exist.

Since martial arts terms usually do not appear in mainstream dictionaries, I'm suggesting we take it upon ourselves to select a standardized way to spell these terms using romaji that will be clear to the reader what they are talking about:

Araki-ryu kenpo
Taisha-ryu kenpo

If listing the names of ryu-ha, which is the fist art and which is the sword art? The term shouldn't require further clarification - it should be reasonably guessed from the context and spelling.

As I said, "ken" (sword) has always been romanized that way. "kem" (fist) has been romanized both ways. What is the problem? The sword art kenpo may not currently be well known in the west currently, but it was a term used quite a bit historically, and will surely become more well known as more research is published.

Anyway, just a suggestion. Feel free to romanize things how ever you want.

Regards,

[Mekugi]

Hmm...

Araki Ryu is the "Fist Law", Taisha ryu is the "Sword Law".

Did I get it right?

I back ya up on the "Sword Law", and it is used regularily!


-Russ
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Mr. Natan,

I'm not trying to argue as to the popularity of the two arts, or which ones should have the rights to the spelling based on first usage. I'm simply pointing out that there are two Japanese terms within the same field that are being spelled the same (kenpo), and a standard for differentiating the two terms does not currently exist.

Since martial arts terms usually do not appear in mainstream dictionaries, I'm suggesting we take it upon ourselves to select a standardized way to spell these terms using romaji that will be clear to the reader what they are talking about:

Araki-ryu kenpo
Taisha-ryu kenpo

If listing the names of ryu-ha, which is the fist art and which is the sword art? The term shouldn't require further clarification - it should be reasonably guessed from the context and spelling.

As I said, "ken" (sword) has always been romanized that way. "kem" (fist) has been romanized both ways. What is the problem? The sword art kenpo may not currently be well known in the west currently, but it was a term used quite a bit historically, and will surely become more well known as more research is published.

Anyway, just a suggestion. Feel free to romanize things how ever you want.

Regards,

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by BULLDOG
KeNpo vs. KeMpo
What are the differences?
[1] In history.
[2] In style.
[3] In MA doctrine ¨C philosophy.
Appreciate the input.
Ed Barton
Absolutely none. Using "m" to rather than "n" to represent the glottal stop in Japanese is a (comparatively) recent introduction to the world of romanised Japanese. The same can be seen in the mopdern convention of using shiMbun (rather than shiNbun) for "newspaper". There is absolutely no difference in the way the word is written in Japanese: È_·¨.
Note also that your three questions are meaningless, Ed, because there is more than one type of kempo (Shorinji Kempo, Nippon Kempo, Chinese Kempo) and more than one type of kenpo (Shorin-ryu Kenpo, Kenpo Karate). "Kempo" (or "kenpo") is a generic (common) noun meaning "way of the fist"; it is only when this is combined with an adjective to describe what kind of kempo (or kenpo) it is (Nippon, Shorinji, etc.) that it becomes a proper noun. The single convention is that once either "kempo" or "kenpo" has been adopted into a proper noun, you don't keep changing around. (E.g., Shorinji Kempo cannot be called "Shorinji Kenpo", and Kenpo Karate cannot be called "Kempo Karate".)
So, as you can see, Ed, your questions above are meaningless. You need to ask, "What are the specific histories, styles, and philosophies of the various kempo or kenpo, and how do they differ?", which is a question for a whole other thread. HTH.
Thanks to Russ Ebert for the heads up.

[tsurashi shondo]

Jeepers Tony, that was surprisingly light handed!
I was expecting a weighty "war and peace" post once you showed up.
Cheers.:D

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by tsurashi shondo
Jeepers Tony, that was surprisingly light handed!
I was expecting a weighty "war and peace" post once you showed up.
Cheers.:D
Unmatched and peerless in my verbosity, I never use one word where 10 will do... :cool:

[Mekugi]

Plus Tony has gone over this many, many, many, many (keep going) times.

For the record, this will come up soon I think:
the proper term is "KENSHI" and not "Kempoka".

-Russ

[Senjojutsu]

If you walk into a dojo or MA studio in America and get the the following response:

   KeNpo means it is a Chinese martial art.

   KeMpo means it is a Japanese martial art.

...you may want to keep walking boys and girls!
:eek:

This by the way is not that an uncommon response (at least a while ago) - at least up here in the Northeast.

Wait did I do a typo!?
I meant KeNpo means it is a Japanese martial art, and KeMpo means it is a Chinese martial art.
:rolleyes:

[BULLDOG]

Thank you for your responses.

The purpose for this was to decipher some credentials and claims made by one of my previous instructors.

I had my own thoughts / prejudices but I wanted to keep an open mind and take the data that you all provided and come to a conclusion.

The generalities of my inquiries were to keep the responses as open as possible.

I have found the resources here at e-budo to be creditable and valuable.

My conclusion is that until a quality dojo of interest enters my area, I will be training on my own.

Thank you again for your input.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Senjojutsu
If you walk into a dojo or MA studio in America and get the the following response:
   KeNpo means it is a Chinese martial art.
   KeMpo means it is a Japanese martial art.
...you may want to keep walking boys and girls!
:eek:
This by the way is not that an uncommon response (at least a while ago) - at least up here in the Northeast.
Wait did I do a typo!?
I meant KeNpo means it is a Japanese martial art, and KeMpo means it is a Chinese martial art.
:rolleyes:
This statement is absolute bollocks, made by people who don't speak Japnese (Kempo) or Chinese (Chuan'fa). If anyone gives you this bull, they are clearly pretending to a knowledge they don't have. Best to get rid of them immediately.
The answer I gave is complete, accurate, and succinct. I challenge any fellow expert to do better. Of course, many morons will try to diss me, but the more they do, the more they show their ignorance of Japnese, Chinese, and MA in general...

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by BULLDOG
Thank you for your responses.
The purpose for this was to decipher some credentials and claims made by one of my previous instructors.
I had my own thoughts / prejudices but I wanted to keep an open mind and take the data that you all provided and come to a conclusion.
The generalities of my inquiries were to keep the responses as open as possible.
I have found the resources here at e-budo to be creditable and valuable.
My conclusion is that until a quality dojo of interest enters my area, I will be training on my own.
Thank you again for your input.
Bulldog, please sign all your posts with your real name. No exceptions.
TIA,

[BULLDOG]

Hello Tony,


BULLDOG

Ed Barton

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by BULLDOG
Hello Tony,
BULLDOG
Ed Barton
Ed, just remember that EVERY post must be signed. Why not create a signature block to prevent further ommissions?

[Nathan Scott]

Araki Ryu is the "Fist Law", Taisha ryu is the "Sword Law". Did I get it right?

A rhetorical question, but yes - you pass koryu 101. Congrats! ;)

[dveed]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Mr. Natan,

I'm simply pointing out that there are two Japanese terms within the same field that are being spelled the same (kenpo), and a standard for differentiating the two terms does not currently exist.

Since martial arts terms usually do not appear in mainstream dictionaries, I'm suggesting we take it upon ourselves to select a standardized way to spell these terms using romaji that will be clear to the reader what they are talking about:

Araki-ryu kenpo
Taisha-ryu kenpo

If listing the names of ryu-ha, which is the fist art and which is the sword art? The term shouldn't require further clarification - it should be reasonably guessed from the context and spelling.

As I said, "ken" (sword) has always been romanized that way. "kem" (fist) has been romanized both ways. What is the problem? The sword art kenpo may not currently be well known in the west, but it was a term used quite a bit historically, and will surely become more well known as more research is published.

Anyway, just a suggestion. Feel free to romanize things how ever you want.

Regards,
"As I said, "ken" (sword) has always been romanized that way. "kem" (fist) has been romanized both ways. What is the problem?"
Answer: Practitioners of the sword arts tend to be on a higher level. (educationally-wise) They are both pronounced kempo. If you were speaking in Japanese you wouldn't have a clue as to which was what.
"The term shouldn't require further clarification - it should be reasonably guessed from the context and spelling."
Even Japanese when speaking with each other are sometimes forced to write out the words so the kanji tell the story.
"I'm suggesting we take it upon ourselves to select a standardized way to spell these terms using romaji that will be clear to the reader what they are talking about."
WE have no right to do so. WE have made the mess. Some of us are trying to right the mistakes of the past. There IS a standard way to Romanize Japanese. It should be used. (kenjutsu) can be added by the sword arts people if they are so worried about it :) I, personally, don't want those who know (count) the difference to look askew at me or my students.

[dveed]

Originally posted by Matt Wolfson
Hello,
Having practiced Odo's style for many years and have met and practiced with him personally, I would like to know what has happened to his organization? I always knew the style as Okinawan Kenpo and was under the impression that Odo was a student of Nakamura and was teaching Nakamuras style. The name Ryukyu Hon Kenpo is new to me. Could you explain this to me in more detail?
Matt
Matt,
Master Odo passed away on 24 March, 2002. In 1998, Master Odo renamed the “Okinawa Kenpo Karate Kobudo Federation” the “Ryukyu Hon Kenpo Kobujutsu Federation”, and changed the name of the arts taught by him to “Ryukyu Hon Kenpo Kobujutsu”. This was due to people abusing his name and organization.

[Matt Wolfson]

Originally posted by dveed
Matt,
Master Odo passed away on 24 March, 2002. In 1998, Master Odo renamed the “Okinawa Kenpo Karate Kobudo Federation” the “Ryukyu Hon Kenpo Kobujutsu Federation”, and changed the name of the arts taught by him to “Ryukyu Hon Kenpo Kobujutsu”. This was due to people abusing his name and organization.

Thank you for the info. So who is running the organization now? Who is the US representive of it?
Matt

[dveed]

Odo Sensei's son Sasumu is in charge now. Odo's student Julian Spain would, probably, be best to contact: jspain@sunnynet.or.jp

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Natan,

Well, it looks like we are not going to see eye to eye on this subject or on Japanese language.

If anyone else has any thoughts on this I'd be interested to hear them though.

[dveed]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Mr. Natan,

Well, it looks like we are not going to see eye to eye on this subject or on Japanese language.

If anyone else has any thoughts on this I'd be interested to hear them though.
Nathan,
It's okay. It'd be a really dull world if we all agreed all the time! It's best to remember that we have much more in common than not. And, we probably see eye to eye on 95% or more. So, no reason to be upset on the few things we might disagree about. I use kanji in all of my writings due to the problems we've been discussing. I tried to do so here, but the forum doesn't accept my input.
D'veed

[Michael Bland]

If you guys want a clue, pay attention to what those of us who have lived in Japan for many years have said - there is no meaningful difference. It's just however people decided to romanize a JAPANESE word, which was never intended to be romanized.

By trying to say that one spelling means something different than another spelling you are just showing your lack of understanding of Japanese language.

Let it go, man...

[Jock Armstrong]

Thank you Micheal!! Some Japamese pronounce the number "san" as "sam"- what difference is there- only the dialect pronunciation.
Kempo/ kenpo?? Tomato/tomato............

[Nathan Scott]

If you guys want a clue, pay attention to what those of us who have lived in Japan for many years have said...

Well, thank you oh so much for the clue. It's always a pleasure to be spoken to in a condescending fashion by a stranger on the internet. I wish I had a dime for every Westerner that lived in Japan for a period in time who has tried to lecture myself or others in all that is Japanese.

Romanized Japanese is not a random language. It isn't perfect, but it also isn't random. At any given time period, there is an accepted romanized spelling in common use. However, all Japanese words, especially those in specialty areas like budo, do not appear in standard romaji jiten, or for that matter, standard kanji jiten. It is these words that do not appear in romaji jiten that I was talking about.

Thank you Micheal!! Some Japamese pronounce the number "san" as "sam"- what difference is there- only the dialect pronunciation.

The difference is that there is only one way to spell "san" in romaji, not two. Part of my point is that regional dialect does not affect standardized romaji spelling in Japan any more than it does here in America (when writing proper English). There are many words in romaji that sound different than they are spelled. But that is the same in English and other languages too - this fact does not negate the need for standardized spelling.

[Troll Basher]

Originally posted by Michael Bland
If you guys want a clue, pay attention to what those of us who have lived in Japan for many years have said - there is no meaningful difference. It's just however people decided to romanize a JAPANESE word, which was never intended to be romanized.
By trying to say that one spelling means something different than another spelling you are just showing your lack of understanding of Japanese language.


Folks.........as someone that has heard Michael's Japanese first hand "in country" I can tell you that it is far better than most foreigner's....not just a little better but A LOT better. He was even on a Japanese TV show speaking only Japanese many moons ago.

I have heard this N/M arguement for years. It always amazes me how folks that have spent little or NO time in Japan and have barely any command of the Japanese language could possible qualify their argeuments about how to speak Japanese and the meanings of the words there in. Buying the Berlitz Home Study Course for Japanese just doesn't hack it.


Originally posted by Michael Bland
Let it go, man...

Amen

[Troll Basher]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Well, thank you oh so much for the clue. It's always a pleasure to be spoken to in a condescending fashion by a stranger on the internet.

I think you would be better off listening and learning from someone who actually has some knowledge, been there LIVED it for more than a few years instead of getting so defensive.
The gentleman you are addressing has done some outstanding things that go waaaaaay beyond the typical L.B.H. (Loser Back Home)that comes to Japan for a couple of years, teaching English at friggin' NOVA, hangs out at the Tokyo American Club talking to other Americans by day, and then moves on to Roppongi at night to chat up OLs that speak English and teach him "Okama-esque"/"Yellow Cab" Japanese.
To date I have yet to hear anyone foreigner speak better Japanese than Michael.(I have lived here going 17 years by the way)



Originally posted by Nathan Scott

I wish I had a dime for every Westerner that lived in Japan for a period in time who has tried to lecture myself or others in all that is Japanese.


I wish I had one yen for every time some jerk on the Internet that had never been to Japan (or for only a short while anyway) tried to tell me what it was like to live here. However, when someone that has done something I haven't and is actually REALLY good at it I shut my "cake hole" and try to learn from them.

[Mekugi]

Originally posted by Jock Armstrong
Thank you Micheal!! Some Japamese pronounce the number "san" as "sam"- what difference is there- only the dialect pronunciation.
Kempo/ kenpo?? Tomato/tomato............

That tends to take all the fun out of that "Let's Call the Whole Thing Off" song huh, just saying things the same way. However, if we were to use the former US Vice prsisent Dan Quale's method of spelling, it would be Tomato/Tomatoe, Pototo/Potatoe. The guy was simply before his time, I say!

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Troll Basher
To date I have yet to hear anyone foreigner speak better Japanese than Michael.
I take exception to that...

[Troll Basher]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
I take exception to that...


:toast:

[Nathan Scott]

First of all, Mr. Bland and I do not know each other, and I don't think anyone appreciates being spoken to in a condescending way. I didn't come to this forum to be treated like an A-hole, and didn't intend to treat anyone else like an A-hole. Whether you are the exception to the rule or not, the fact remains that living in Japan does not automatically make you an expert on all things Japanese, and I know this from experience (though obviously, it can be quite valuable experience).

Secondly, of all of you taking the time to slam me, none of you have bothered to offer an explanation as to why my logic is skewed. I'm glad you are all fans of Mr. Bland's skill at speaking Japanese, but how about offering a counter-argument, as I have, rather than simply implying that I don't know what I'm talking about.

As far as I go, my Japanese skills are not very good. However, I've discussed this particular subject with a professor and author who specializes in SE Asia while doing research for a book I was involved in. I realize that those in Japan use a more phoenetic spelling for romaji that I suppose is popular for character input programs and electronic dictionaries (ie: budou), etc. Which is interestingly,because this shows that Japanese (or anyone using such electronic devices) also have a need to differentiate between various intended kanji combinations in a written form for the same reasons we do, and when possible, words translated to romaji are spelled using different combinations (based on the spoken sound). THe standardized romaji is far more pleasant to read, but is especially tough since the use of macrons has fallen from favor.

Mr. Natan's responses to me seemed to be based on a defensive position of "karate vs. swordsmanship - that's your problem not mine" attitude. I appreciate his point of view, but was looking for a more objective point of view from others.

If someone would like to offer an argument as to why my point of view is so clearly skewed, I'd love to be enlightened. If ya'll just want to disregard my point of view, that's fine too. But I didn't just start training in Japanese martial arts yesterday, and those of you that think you know all about me don't. So tell you what, I won't be an A-hole to you if you don't be an A-hole to me. Kind of like the E-budo rules and common courtesy dictate. Fair enough?

Regards,

[Michael Bland]

Nathan,

My comments was not directed specifically at you, but in general at those who continue to bring up the keMpo/keNpo argument. I apologize if my comments offended you in any way. That was not my intent.

You seem to have some concern about my Japanese ability. I assure you that I have a fairly extensive background in Japanese. Does it lend more authority for you if I tell you that I graduated valedictorian from the East Asian Languages Dept of UC Berkeley where I specifically studied Japanese linguistics and romanization methods? Personally, I think that minor achievement pales in comparison with having lived and worked professionally in Japan for 7.5 years where my language skills were vital to my career - and continue to be to this day. But, to each his own...

In point of fact, the Japanese nasal sound is often transcribed as "m/n" in romanized representations of the Japanaese syllabaries specifically because it is universally recognized to be neither "m" nor "n".

In the case of reading the word "kenpo"/"kempo", "m" is a bilabial nasal and "n" is a palatal nasal. Neither is the Japanese pronunication.

It is more properly written as "©¯" since the actual sound is a velar nasal. (not a glottal stop, Tony - You are thinking of the "small tsu" character). For those of you who do not have browsers that display the IPA symbol for the velar nasal (©¯), this would be the sound represented by the "ng" at the end of the word "sung".

So, it really doesn't matter if you decide to romanize this as "kenpo" or "kempo" because in actuality neither of them adequately represents the sound. Not to mention that neither of these is the proper use of either Hepburn or Kunrei styles of romanization because neither of these takes into account the long vowel "o" in the word which would require a macron in Hepburn and a circumflex in modern Kunrei. So, they are both flawed.

Romanization is simply a crutch for those who are either unwilling or unable to learn to write the language in its original writing systems. But that is fine, since most people do not need to understand at this depth. And my suggestion was for those people to take advantage of the time and effort of the people who do know this (generally the people who have lived in Japan) and take our word for it when we say that this is a silly argument if you understand that the language you are arguing about does not even contain the means to distinguish between an "m" and an "n".

My two cents...

And thanks for the compliments, Robert!

[Mekugi]

For those reading along and are lost, allow me to offer up the following:

Doc Jim Hepburn's System (Hebon Siki) and the Nippon Siki/Kanrei Siki system explained (http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/sapienti/jkana-o2.htm)

This is a macron= ō , this is a circumflex= ô, you have to open your computer's character map to get it unless you know the old entry codes,(ō=U+014D , ô=U+00F4 for Times New Roman).

Keio University Notes on Romanization (http://web.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~masudako/memo_en/romanize.html)

========================================

As an aside note:

I believe that in the next 100 years, Japan will lose it's use of Katakana to Romanized letters when spelling foreign words altogether. That is to say, Katakana will be used only for pronounciation keys and not actual written spellings. This is not unlike the way they use small hiragana for kanji to assure correct pronunciation. Just my two cents, seeing the way that Romanized letters are taking over the scape of Japan and the abundant use foreign words they currently enjoy. Katakana may just be reduced to billboard fonts and yurigana. It has happened in several other Asian countries (such as Vietnam) where they have lost their use of Asian writing altogether in favor of a romanized version. Speaking of Vietnamese food, I could use an avocado milkshake and some tripe soup about now....Nummers.

[Troll Basher]

Michael,

Thanks for the linguistics lesson.


Nathan,

My point is simply this.
People that raise this argument m/n more often than not have no command of the Japanese language. Yet they expect.....or demand others to respect their opinion no matter how grossly unsupported and uneducated it may be.
I guess it would be like me trying to give my “expert opinion” on the finer points of the art you study, Toyama Ryu, and asking you to respect my opinion after only having met Nakamura Taisaburo several times (which I have BTW) and never really studying the art seriously.
I highly doubt anybody in your school would take me seriously not to mention appreciate me teaching someone else what little I know.

[Nathan Scott]

All,

I appreciate the more thoughtful and informative responses.

Michael, it really isn't necessary to list your credentials. My response was in some regards intended to be considered in general as well, pointing out that I and others don't know all the contributors here, and as such, should not be expected to simply take everyone's word for it that this is in fact a silly subject without the courtesy of others qualifying their statements. Besides, this is a discussion forum, not an online FAQ.

I'm still having trouble grasping a few points to your argument, so, if you don't mind indulging this dialogue a bit further:

1) You and others are pointing out that romaji is a phonetically inaccurate language, and as such, should not be taken seriously. It has been my experience that many languages, if not most, have a great number of word spellings that do not follow the given rules for pronunciation. Yet, they are considered to be the correct spelling. English is filled with illogically spelled words that constantly break the rules, which is likely do to the amount of loan words taken from other cultures.

In other words, myself and surely many others are well aware that "jujutsu" doesn't sound like "jujutsu" when spoken. But that does not mean that the spelling should be changed every time the pronunciation doesn't match or a dialect evolves.

I would not argue the m/n point with you because I happen to be in agreement. I spend the majority of my time around Japanese natives, and am quite aware of how the language sounds. However, for some reason everyone is confusing pronunciation with spelling. I'm talking about the "proper" written romaji language.

2) I believe that macrons and what not are still considered to be part of "proper" romanji, but the fact is, many western authors find that over punctuating a text with macrons clutters the page too much, which can result in dissuading the reader from enjoying or even completing a given text. As such, from my observation, this element of romanization seems to be falling into dissuse, for better or for worse.

3) Romaji IS a crutch, but is a critical one for most westerners. Perhaps not for those few with facility in the spoken and written language, but to the rest of the world.

I look at a clearly flawed language like romaji as simply a code or sorts, that allows the reader to reasonably guess the intended meaning of a Japanese word through the spelling and context of its use. To the vast majority of readers who cannot read kanji/kana, romaji is a critical language tool, and has been for well over 100 years (and will continue to be). I recently translated something Japanese that had a greek term in it, and it was necessary for me to research the proper spelling and "romanization" method for printing in English in order for the translation to be considered "proper", even though I don't know anything about writing Greek words. Those not familiar with writing Japanese would need to be able to find the same standardized references for romanization.

From my understanding, the modified Hepburn system IS the standard romanization system, regardless of what many Japanese prefer to use. This can be evidenced from Japanese made professional jiten such as Kenkyusha's New J-E Dictionary, Kodansha's Bilingual Encyclopedia of Japan, and many other publications by well respected Japanese book companies.

So, if there is a standarized romaji system at any given time, flaws and all, and the romaji system of writing remains a necessary crutch for most non-Japanese readers, they why is this subject irrelevant (or silly)?

Russ, I tend to agree with you. I was just in Japan last month, and noticed that more and more signs all over Japan are including romanized language throughout the various cities. Kind of sad, actually. I think it looks like crap.

Robert, fair enough comparison, except that my objection was to being treated like a teenage manga junkie and having my point rudely dismissed without qualification. If someone brought up an opinion about Toyama-ryu or some other system I study, I may or may not be annoyed, but would likely give them some kind of short answer as to why their opinion was skewed. Folks, if ya don't have the patience to answer, then don't answer!

Regards,

[tsurashi shondo]

Well crafted response Nathan. Very "on point".

[Michael Bland]

Nathan,

Hepburn, or Modified Hepburn, is not the standardized romanization tool. It is simply the tool that most layman English speakers (meaning as opposed to linguists) have come to find is easiest to approximate the Japanese sounds. So it has become popular. Personally, as a native English speaker myself, I also like Hepburn.

In educated linguistics circles, in Japan, and in non-English speaking countries, Kunrei is the preferred method because it more closely approximates the true Japanese syllabaries. It is the only accepted form of romanization by Monbusho (the Ministry of Education) and therefore it is often called the "Monbusho Style" of romanization, as well.

Japanese people do get influenced by both styles, as well as by other factors, like Japanese baseball players like to romanize their names with long vowel "o" in them to "oh". (eg, Sato = Satoh) This is in none of the accepted styles of romanization, and yet it is still their officially romanized names.

Music will use titles changing the "r" to an "l" because it looks more "cool". (eg, "kurara" becomes "kurala"). Pop idols put a "c" in their name for the same reason ("Rikako" becomes "Rikaco").

So, for you to say that Hepburn is the accepted standard seems completely off-base to me.

People will use it however they want and in the case of "m/n" they are certainly justified in using either one, since neither is correct but reasonably close considering they are already using a flawed tool.

[Rob Alvelais]

Michael, Robert, Tony, et al.

What's the lowdown on the use of "oh" vs. "o" and "ou" vs. "o"

I'm seeing the Oh as Michael indicated in a previous post as well as "Ou".

For example, I'm seeing Battoh-Do vs. Batto Do. Souke vs. Soke, Shotoukan vs. Shotokan. Is the "correct" "official" romanization still without the "U"? Is there a differenct between the "Correct" and "Official" romanizations?

Rob

PS.

Welcome Back, Michael.

[Michael Bland]

Hi Rob,

Now that I am back in the US, I'll have to visit your school sometime. Too bad you aren't in Lafayette anymore!

I realize my posts were pretty long-winded, so to make it short and over-simplified: there is not really an "official" or "standard" romanization of a Japanese word - especially names!

If you want more detail, read on...

The closest thing to calling it official would be if they have copyrighted the romanized name - but that would only be for that organization. And they could pick any way they want to romanize it.

As I mentioned in one of my posts, a;though there are many many ways that people can and do romanize Japanese, there are only 2 standardized methods of doing it - Hepburn Style, and Kunrei Style.
To indicate a long vowel, Hepburn uses macrons (a horizontal line: ¯ ) over the vowel, and Kunrei used to use macrons but now uses a circumflex (looks like a carat: ô ) over the vowel.

So, in that sense, all representations you mentioned would be incorrect. But in the end, the point is that it doesn't matter. People can write the name of their style anyway they want.

For simplicity of reading in English, I would probably choose to just leave out any indication of long vowel at all (just use a single "o") and accept that English speakers do not need to perfectly pronounce the Japanese word.

But that's only me...

[Rob Alvelais]

Originally posted by Michael Bland
Hi Rob,

Now that I am back in the US, I'll have to visit your school sometime. Too bad you aren't in Lafayette anymore!

After my twin girls came, it was just too hard to get out to the East Bay. But, if you're ever in Mtn View, stop by!


As for what you write below, that's sorta what I thought. However, I'm seeing a lot of Japanese speakers (Issei definitely, I don't know about nisei or sansei) who are adding the "u" and "h" in their romanizations. Karate-do becomes Karate-doh. (Somehow that does seem appropriate.) :D , Batto becomes Battoh, Soke becomes Souke. Anyway, that's what prompted my question. I think you mentioned that it's simpy their preference and it's fashioable now.

thanks.

Rob



I realize my posts were pretty long-winded, so to make it short and over-simplified: there is not really an "official" or "standard" romanization of a Japanese word - especially names!

If you want more detail, read on...

The closest thing to calling it official would be if they have copyrighted the romanized name - but that would only be for that organization. And they could pick any way they want to romanize it.

As I mentioned in one of my posts, a;though there are many many ways that people can and do romanize Japanese, there are only 2 standardized methods of doing it - Hepburn Style, and Kunrei Style.
To indicate a long vowel, Hepburn uses macrons (a horizontal line: ¯ ) over the vowel, and Kunrei used to use macrons but now uses a circumflex (looks like a carat: ô ) over the vowel.

So, in that sense, all representations you mentioned would be incorrect. But in the end, the point is that it doesn't matter. People can write the name of their style anyway they want.

For simplicity of reading in English, I would probably choose to just leave out any indication of long vowel at all (just use a single "o") and accept that English speakers do not need to perfectly pronounce the Japanese word.

But that's only me...

[Michael Bland]

Yes, that and the fact that most Japanese people don't know how to use romanization correctly... they are shown both styles, and they use word processors that require character entry more specific to the Japanese writing system... also with TV influences etc... it becomes confusing for them. And remember that romanization is not a primary writing system for them... when they want to write Japanese, they quite naturally use Japanese.

If you are truly concerned, ask a linguist... otherwise, don't worry about it. "What's in a name?", right? More important to focus on what you train, I think. :toast:

[Rob Alvelais]

Oh, it's just that the nihonjin that I know love to tease me at every opportunity. So, they'll chide me about the ou vs o. I'm sure that if I conformed, they'll switch back, so that they can have more fun at my expense. ;-)

Rob


Originally posted by Michael Bland
Yes, that and the fact that most Japanese people don't know how to use romanization correctly... they are shown both styles, and they use word processors that require character entry more specific to the Japanese writing system... also with TV influences etc... it becomes confusing for them. And remember that romanization is not a primary writing system for them... when they want to write Japanese, they quite naturally use Japanese.

If you are truly concerned, ask a linguist... otherwise, don't worry about it. "What's in a name?", right? More important to focus on what you train, I think. :toast:

[Tripitaka of AA]

Beware! Incoming comment from Gaijin Know-nothing married to Japanese for 17 years but living in Britain and minimal time in Japan...


"Official" romanisation?

That would be the big board on the wall at the Home Office when you are getting your passport renewed (or at the Embassy when you need to update the Honseki). Having to write my children's English Birthplace address in the romanised version of the katakana pronunciation of the address "Wesutominisutaa" (Westminster), seemed particularly baffling.
But woe betide anyone who didn't follow the precise definitions ("ou" for long "o", etc.).

Then there is the regulation of children's names so that you can only use the accepted pronunciation of the chosen Kanji (instead of picking a nice-looking Kanji and then making up whatever sound you liked - which is how it used to be!)...


To say that Japanese make it up as they go along, or are easy-going sounds like a very different Japan from the bureaucratic paper-based nightmare that is found in Embassies and Home Offices.

[Troll Basher]

Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA

To say that Japanese make it up as they go along, or are easy-going sounds like a very different Japan from the bureaucratic paper-based nightmare that is found in Embassies and Home Offices.


I sometimes have to put my name on Japanese documents in katakana. There is actually no official way to write my name using Japanese kana. So I guess it goes both ways.
I too have seen places where you must spell in Romanization a certain way. It has always been on a place by place and case by case basis. Some places use different spellings.........

[Tripitaka of AA]

I re-read this post again just now, just to make sure I remembered who said what... and do you know, it made a lot more sense the second time! Although it did suffer a bit in the middle when Nathan appeared to be on the recieving end of some rather blunt responses. Nevertheless, the attempt to differentiate between romanisation of the Sword law and the fist law by making one with "n" and one with "m" seems a lost cause, futile exercise, wild goose chase, waste of time to me :D.

But I just thought I'd share one more titbit.

I mentioned this thread to my Japanese wife Yoriko. She agreed that "it doesn't make any difference", but we then went on to talk about the use of "m" at all, when romanising something that in hiragana/katakana would be done with Ý ‚ñ "n".

I explained that some systems allow the romanisation to put an "m" when the following syllable would be "pa, pu, pi, pe, po" or "ba, bu, bi, be, bo"... her face went purple and she declared that this was WRONG WRONG WRONG. We then went on to talk about how the sound she makes when she says "kenpo/kempo" is the sound of an "m" followed by "po", which she denies, passionately.

So I'm standing three inches away from her mouth watching as she says, in slow motion, "ke----ng/m---po-----". I clapped and laughed, she sulked and got cross... we talked some more. She said that when she says that "word" she sees two kanji, joined together, and that's how she says them. The first one ends in "n" (or "ng" if you like Michael's description) and the lips close to make the "p" of "po" immediately... which is why I hear and see "m"....



Oh the joy of debate... it was a riot of fun.



Shorinji Kempo uses an "m". It is a copyrighted name. It is the way that it has been done. I just say it and write it, I didn't choose it.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by BULLDOG
KeNpo vs. KeMpo
What are the differences?
[1] In history.
[2] In style.
[3] In MA doctrine ¨C philosophy.
Appreciate the input.
Ed Barton
There are no differences whatsoever, Ed. They are both equally valid romanisations of the same Japanese word, "way of the fist". Normally, the Japanese glottal stop is rendered using an "n", but in some cases, such as shimbun ("newspaper"), an "m" has become the norm, such that "shinbun" would be regarded as a little odd. With kempo/kenpo, however, neither the meme for keMpo nor for keNpo has come to dominate, so the simple answer is that tradition within the art in question holds sway. By that I mean, there are many different kinds of kempo (kenpo), so the specific style chooses to spell itself one way or the other, and everyone follows suit in a lock-on effect, for the sake of standardization. Thus, Shorinji Kempo, Nippon Kempo, but Kenpo Karate. I must reiterate, however (and I can't emphasise this enough), the difference is purely Western, because the Japanese write the word only one way: È_·¨, and to them there is no distinction to be drawn.

[draego]

Howdy,

Just out of interest does anyone have an MPEG of Kosho Ryu? I am just curious to see what its all about!

[Shorin Ryuu]

Well, this topic has been kind of beaten to death. But I'd like to approach it from a different angle...

Everyone keeps saying Kenpo means "Fist Law/Method" with more people choosing "Fist Law" more often.

However, it has been my observation that the kanji "hou" at the end of a compound usually refers to "method/technique/way of doing something/etc." of the kanji or word(s) before it, rather than literally "Law" (the names of various laws being the normal exception).

While of course Japanese compounds usually have a meaning of their own rather than a simple direct translation of their individual parts, I personally found the translation of "fist law" to be wrong in a mildly amusing way. I'm not as good in Japanese as some of the people here, but I believe "fist method" to be a more accurate "rough translation" than "fist law". Naturally, I'd just view it as "kenpo" or simply the concept of "empty hand martial art--usually based on Chinese methods", but if one were to break it down like that, "fist law" just seems plain "wrong". It seems more a romantic (perhaps) way of translating it to sound cooler. Maybe. I think it sounds off. Just my two cents (yen?).

[Troll Basher]

Well, this topic has been kind of beaten to death. But I'd like to approach it from a different angle...

Everyone keeps saying Kenpo means "Fist Law/Method" with more people choosing "Fist Law" more often.

However, it has been my observation that the kanji "hou" at the end of a compound usually refers to "method/technique/way of doing something/etc." of the kanji or word(s) before it, rather than literally "Law" (the names of various laws being the normal exception).

While of course Japanese compounds usually have a meaning of their own rather than a simple direct translation of their individual parts, I personally found the translation of "fist law" to be wrong in a mildly amusing way. I'm not as good in Japanese as some of the people here, but I believe "fist method" to be a more accurate "rough translation" than "fist law". Naturally, I'd just view it as "kenpo" or simply the concept of "empty hand martial art--usually based on Chinese methods", but if one were to break it down like that, "fist law" just seems plain "wrong". It seems more a romantic (perhaps) way of translating it to sound cooler. Maybe. I think it sounds off. Just my two cents (yen?).


That angle has been mentioned as well on many of the KeNpo/KeMpo debate threads all over the internet.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Oh well. Nothing too new under the sun, I suppose. But then again, this whole thread was like that too.

[Nathan Scott]

Hi all,

As I may have mentioned, Japanese generally could care less about romanization. It is a system they have little use for and don't "respect" because it isn't real Japanese. Great for them, bummer for those of us trying to use it.

Technically, all the romanization systems are "inaccurate". But for writing Japanese in the romanized language, it is all there is. So my point was to make the best of what it is by having the small community that uses these specialty terms differentiate between kenpo and kempo in how it is romanized. However, I wasn't suggesting that the words be pronounced differently. Many romanized words do not sound the same way they are spelled, nor should they. That is one of the problems with the romanized system(s) being used that I can't think of a sollution for.

When I posted here, I didn't know that kenpo/kempo was a hot and heavy subject for debate. I definitely don't care enough about the subject to continue arguing my point of view - it's not worth the stress.

Regards,