Blocking with a Sword

[Rei Ho]

Evasion with the body is probubly the best way to avoid the Katana, but just because I am curious, Which Koryu out there goes edge to edge, and which one goes Back of the blade to edge, or sides of the blade to edge? Please, just Koryu, if they want to answer. If not, it is :cool:
Tracy Crocker

[Charles Mahan]

This topic has been done to death. You can find a lot of info on it by searching the archives. Technically you were asking which way was appropriate, you asked which koryu used which, so...

I can think of examples of all three within MJER. Depends mostly on the particular situation. I believe the general preference is with the Shinogi.

[Rei Ho]

Sorry Charles, I don't live on the computer, so I wouldn't know this topic was done to death. I asked several questions I think? Can we get back to that?
Tracy Crocker

[Charles Mahan]

Actually, you only really asked one question, which koryu blocked in which fashion. And I believe I did address that question, as well as point you towards where you could easily learn more.

[chrismoses]

Start with the archives dude.

Many schools consider this kind of information private, regardless, do some work on your own.

[Rei Ho]

In a round about way, I said evasion is probubly the best way, so I thought I might get some words on that too, I did say if they didn't want to answer, It was cool. I completely understand someones wishes for privacy, I was just curious. I have researched this topic, but book research and applied research are two different things. You should know that you can't believe everything you read in a book, video, or e-budo. Right? Too many paper dragons and computer warriors today. :D
Tracy Crocker

[gendzwil]

So why the hell did you bother asking if you don't care to believe the responses? This topic has been done to death and you don't have to "live on the computer" to see the previous discussion, just use that newfangled "search" button at the top of the page.

[pgsmith]

Tracy,
You are asking for a simplistic answer on a very complicated question.
Which Koryu out there goes edge to edge, and which one goes Back of the blade to edge, or sides of the blade to edge? Please, just Koryu, if they want to answer.
Sekiguchi ryu has all three is the simplistic answer.
I'll try and clarify why the question you asked is basically unanswerable. Koryu have kata. The kata are designed to teach movement and manipulation of both yourself, your opponent, and both of your weapons. The kata may have edge to edge contact, or edge to shinogi, or edge to mune. This doesn't mean that the ryu is saying you should always (or ever for that matter!) block a stike like this. What the ryu is saying is that the kata has you doing this in order to teach a particular aspect of that manipulation. Too many people view kata as 'combat scenarios', when that is not their purpose. Everyone is instructed to approach kata as 'combat scenarios' in order to attempt to achieve the proper spirit and level of intensity, but they remain merely training tools. Some things that occur in kata are not realistic, but are necessary to teach a certain aspect. Therefore, the question of "which koryu has which blocks?" is basically irrelevant without knowing what the particular kata are attempting to teach.

Hope that didn't just add to the confusion!

Cheers,

[Rei Ho]

I appreciate it. Thought I was in the Ninja forum for a bit. I admit, it is a complicated question, that is why I wanted to hear various points of view. Your help was greatly appreciated. I reckon everytime I ask a question for now on, I better check the archives, huh? Thanks again.
Tracy Crocker

[renfield_kuroda]

Originally posted by Rei Ho
I reckon everytime I ask a question for now on, I better check the archives, huh?

No, you should search the archives BEFORE you ask a question.

Regards,

r e n

[hyaku]

For me "No blocks"

You hopefully avoid and parry at the same time. You parry in such a way that its followed by your own cut. So you should turn the blade to that position in parrying.

[Nsherrard]

Took me about 15 seconds to find this in the archives--as you will see, the subject has indeed been "done to death":

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=6450&perpage=15&highlight=blocking&pagenumber=1

[Mushin Ronin]

Originally posted by renfield_kuroda
No, you should search the archives BEFORE you ask a question.

Regards,

r e n

Meaning no disrespect or flame to anyone unless you feel some sort of guilt about it...but what's the big deal with asking a question that has been asked before? You may be tired of seeing it, but since he is new his question was valid. It can be said that yes...he can find and answer to his question in the archives...but what about newer members with just as much experience or insight to a topic that may have not been around when the question/s were first discused. Is he lazy for not doing the research, or are you lazy, arrogant and rude for not answering? I sure hope you don't treat your students in this fashion...because really that's what he is. Just refrain from comment at all if it's such a big deal to you about going over and over it. Where's the compassion?

From what I seen, if it wasn't for repeated questions, this part of the site or most of e-budo would be dead. Ask whatever you want...ignore those who have to make comments about it. You don't want their responses anyway. If you don't get a satisfactory answer...seek elsewhere...you will probably be better off.

J. Winter

[Ren Blade]

I've only been doing MJER Iaido for 2 1/2 months. As far as I have learned, there are a few katas that use shinogi to block. But Charles mentions that the edge and mune are used to block as well. It'll be interesting for me to see that when I learn the katas that use those parts to block with in the future.

[Daniel san]

I have asked a couple of people questions via PM and received no response at all. Their nonresponse was as telling and educational as having my question answered outright. It kept me going. "Wow", I thought. I must have asked a pertinant question that I had no business asking. I must be on the right track. Just another way to look at what might seem rude to some, nothing else.
To answer your question-it all depends on the situation, same as everything else in life.

Best,

[TimothyKleinert]

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
Meaning no disrespect or flame to anyone unless you feel some sort of guilt about it...but what's the big deal with asking a question that has been asked before? You may be tired of seeing it, but since he is new his question was valid. It can be said that yes...he can find and answer to his question in the archives...but what about newer members with just as much experience or insight to a topic that may have not been around when the question/s were first discused. Is he lazy for not doing the research, or are you lazy, arrogant and rude for not answering? I sure hope you don't treat your students in this fashion...because really that's what he is. Just refrain from comment at all if it's such a big deal to you about going over and over it. Where's the compassion?

J. Winter
Mr. Winter, I think you're taking things a little hard. There's nothing wrong with asking a question that's been asked before, but by asking the question you're also asking people to spend their time answering your question. You're showing people respect for their time by researching the topic before you ask it.

[renfield_kuroda]

What Timothy said.

Is it a teacher's responsibility to teach, or a student's responsibility to learn?

In traditional Japanese arts, teachers are still students, still learning. So it is without fail the student's responsibility to learn. YOU make the effort. You don't ask a question and expect an answer. You formulate the question in your head, then with your mouth shut you sit in the corner of the dojo for a month doing nothing but watching others practice.
And then finally you try it yourself for a couple of months, and the answer still fails you.
You ruminate. You meditate. You practice. You sweat, and bleed, and try, and fail. Over and over.
And then, one day months later, sensei is casually talking about the migratory pattern of birds, or the color of fall leaves, or what he wants for dinner, and you get it. And you try it, and it 'works'! And your question is answered...and now you have more questions.

I could show you detailed maps of every city in every country in the world, fullscreen color photos, moving poems...but you haven't BEEN to Hagurosan in Yamagata until you walk the 2466 hand-laid stone steps up to the shrine, tripping over your own feet, smelling the cedar with your own nose and seeing the 1400 year-old stone paths with your eyes.

Arrogance is in the eye of the beholder: you think it's arrogant that I don't lower myself to answer some lowly newbie's question. I think it's arrogant that you don't even have the commitment to make the effort yourself and TRY to find answers before asking questions.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but it really reminds me of when I was 16 and getting some speech on life from some old guy teacher. "You'll understand when you're older" he told me, "and you'll remember this conversation when you're older. You don't understand now. That's fine. But you will." and I was like "Bah! What does this old man know?!" and I promised I'd never do that when I grew up and knew everything.
Well I certainly haven't grown up, and I certainly don't know everything, but I'm not 16 anymore, and I gotta say that old man had a point...

That's how I've been taught, that's how I teach, that's how I've learned, that's how I will continue to learn.

Regards,
r e n

[Ron Beaubien]

Hello,

Originally posted by renfield_kuroda
...but you haven't BEEN to Hagurosan in Yamagata until you walk the 2466 hand-laid stone steps up to the shrine, tripping over your own feet, smelling the cedar with your own nose and seeing the 1400 year-old stone paths with your eyes.

It is a wonderful sight to behold.

I spent a week on Hagurosan doing Akinomine, the one of the most important periods of yamabushi training on the mountain. Consumption of food was strictly limited and nights of very little sleep were spent chanting sutras. We were repeatedly forced to inhale smoke apparently made from burning red peppers which burned the eyes and lungs in a shuttered room. Washing, shaving, and even brushing our teeth was not permitted during our time there. There were so many full body prostrations on the tatami mats of the temple that my wrists and elbows began to bleed. One day was spent climbing over Gassan and Yudonosan using small trails probably only know by the local yamabushi. We raced down those very same stone steps to the village of Toge below with wild eyes and the checkered sleeves of our suri (robes) flowing behind us.

It was an incredible experience that I'll never forget. Thanks for bringing back some fond memories.

Ron

[Arman]

Avoidance, or a reposting parry, in my limited experience. No "blocks." Why "block"?

Best regards,
Arman Partamian

[Mushin Ronin]

Originally posted by renfield_kuroda
What Timothy said.

Is it a teacher's responsibility to teach, or a student's responsibility to learn?



It's both, but any instructor that didn't have or show compassion to his student isn't worth training under in my opinion. Asking questions is how we learn, and yes I do ask a question and expect an answer. I just come from a much less traditional MA than you I suppose. Is that better or worse? Whose to say...but it suits me.

To me though, sitting around an hoping the answer will come to you is a poor way to lean and a worse way to teach...but that's your choice. Personally where I study we are encouraged to ask questions. Not everyone learns the same. The effort to learn something comes from both sides..the teacher and the student.

I don't mean to insult you or anyone else, but I feel that a differnt approach to answering the gentleman's question or not would have been better. Why be rude to him? To me, if I was bothered by repetitive questions, I would just ingnore them. You were interested in the topic otherwise you wouldn't have looked in here. This is a bit confusing.

As for "being to every city in every country" analogy you use to describe learning, true...being there is always better than a discription. Doing is always better than reading or listening to someone describe how something is done...but one compliments the other IMOP.

Oh well, best wishes on your journey sir.

J.Winter



In traditional Japanese arts, teachers are still students, still learning. So it is without fail the student's responsibility to learn. YOU make the effort. You don't ask a question and expect an answer. You formulate the question in your head, then with your mouth shut you sit in the corner of the dojo for a month doing nothing but watching others practice.
And then finally you try it yourself for a couple of months, and the answer still fails you.
You ruminate. You meditate. You practice. You sweat, and bleed, and try, and fail. Over and over.
And then, one day months later, sensei is casually talking about the migratory pattern of birds, or the color of fall leaves, or what he wants for dinner, and you get it. And you try it, and it 'works'! And your question is answered...and now you have more questions.

I could show you detailed maps of every city in every country in the world, fullscreen color photos, moving poems...but you haven't BEEN to Hagurosan in Yamagata until you walk the 2466 hand-laid stone steps up to the shrine, tripping over your own feet, smelling the cedar with your own nose and seeing the 1400 year-old stone paths with your eyes.

Arrogance is in the eye of the beholder: you think it's arrogant that I don't lower myself to answer some lowly newbie's question. I think it's arrogant that you don't even have the commitment to make the effort yourself and TRY to find answers before asking questions.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but it really reminds me of when I was 16 and getting some speech on life from some old guy teacher. "You'll understand when you're older" he told me, "and you'll remember this conversation when you're older. You don't understand now. That's fine. But you will." and I was like "Bah! What does this old man know?!" and I promised I'd never do that when I grew up and knew everything.
Well I certainly haven't grown up, and I certainly don't know everything, but I'm not 16 anymore, and I gotta say that old man had a point...

That's how I've been taught, that's how I teach, that's how I've learned, that's how I will continue to learn.

Regards,
r e n [/B]

[gmlc123]

Why block, why evade... just hold the centerline in your mind, don't move off-line, just throw away your life and enter directly down the centerline as they attack ie. uchikomi them. Or better still.. just run away :D

Originally posted by Rei Ho
Evasion with the body is probubly the best way to avoid the Katana, but just because I am curious, Which Koryu out there goes edge to edge, and which one goes Back of the blade to edge, or sides of the blade to edge? Please, just Koryu, if they want to answer. If not, it is :cool:
Tracy Crocker

[Tiger Ed]

Agree with the running away theory and the moving out the way. From what I know the parry depends on what you have n your hand and what you want to do. In Mu Gai Ryu Hyo-do, not something I know a great deal about so dont ask, there is some parries with the Tsuka and the Saya.

About asking a question that has been asked before, do not worry. I am a 'newbie' quite a derogatory term in my opinion, asking others what they have already responded to is what this is for and also for new ideas and opinions. Did their teachers answer the same question to all their students, probably. People have been asking the question for about two thousand years so the least we, the others in the forum, can do is answer. Give our ideas and answer as best we can instead of ignoring the question and fobbing the questioner off?

[Simon Ford-Powell]

Those who wish to answer can answer, those who don't can ignore the question!

if you are going to go to the trouble of making a reply, it may as well be a helpful one.

you end up having to find the answer for yourself anyway, so i don't see that politeness is a problem, even if the politeness is indifferent

[Tiger Ed]

Well said.

Seriously now from what I know there are many ways to block, uaually dependant on the situation your in as using the Saya would probably not be good if they are having a big swing as we can all guess the outcome of that one. Blocking with the mune is quite popular and the blocking with the Ha can leave chips or cracks in the blade.

[gmlc123]

Originally posted by Tiger Ed
...blocking with the Ha can leave chips or cracks in the blade.

That would only matter if the chips are located in the Monouchi... further down than that it really wouldn't matter IMO and the Ha is the strongest part of the blade if you opted to block versus parry.

[Charles Mahan]

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin

To me though, sitting around an hoping the answer will come to you is a poor way to lean and a worse way to teach...but that's your choice. Personally where I study we are encouraged to ask questions. Not everyone learns the same. The effort to learn something comes from both sides..the teacher and the student.



If you are sitting around hoping for the answer to come, that is certainly a poor way to learn. I agree. I would like to offer up a brief defense of the observational method of learning which I am familiar with. I'm not trying to criticize the more western approach just trying to offer up some of the benefits of the way our dojo works.

Instead of mindless repetition with the hope that maybe it'll just dawn on you why something works the way it does, you should be carefully studying what is being shown. You need to analyze exactly what you are doing and what the instructor is doing and why the two don't match. Then you have to work on doing exactly what was demonstrated. Ideally the answer to any questions will come during the critical thinking that is part of this process.

This process of careful observation, analysis, and attempt to emulate, goes a lot further towards gaining a full understanding than having someone give you the answer. You can always ask if discovering the answer seems to be taking to long. Besides, having someone tell you why something is the way it is won't make it any easier to do. Not really. You're still gonna have to work on it. A lot. All asking the question does is satisfy a momentary curiosity as to why something is done the way it is, but does nothing to actually increase your ability to replicate it.

There are other benefits to this type of learning. For one, it works on the students powers of observation. A student who isn't being spoon fed the answers to all their questions is forced to watch very very closely to determine the answers mostly for themselves. How do you reckon you might attempt to train someone to recognize the body language that a potential opponent might be giving off right before an attack? Well I imagine such a training regimen would begin with teaching the student to pay attention to subtle details of body language.

The extra time spent analyzing things broadens your understanding of how things work. If you are looking at a particular aspect of a waza and trying to figure out why it works the way it does, then you'll go through several permutations in your mind before hitting on the right answer. You've covered a lot of possibilities and ultimately come to the right conclusion. In the meantime, you will probably discover other useful pieces of information about how other things work, or might work under slightly different circumstances. If someone just hands you the answer to why something is the way it is, you aren't forced through this critical thinking process and while you may get this particular point, you lost the chance to gain the other coincidental knowledge that would have come if you'd sought the answer yourself.

Don't get me wrong. Questions are asked occasionally, and explanations are offered, but it is not common for there to be many questions during an average workout.

[chrismoses]

as an addendum to Charles' post:

One of the most valuable learning skills in this stuff is the ability to honestly observe and evaluate not only what is being demonstrated, but what *you* are in fact doing. In many ways this ability grows with your skill level and may be more of a deciding factor in how proficient you can become. If you really know what your body and weapon(s) is doing, you can find meanings in the kata and correct mistakes. I have one training partner/student who has a real problem knowing what his body is doing. This makes learning very difficult for him, because even when you explicitly correct him (a la Western ed), he has a very difficult time realizing what his body is doing and implementing the change. As you progress and learn, ideally your perception of what should happen and your ability to propriocept those movements should constantly increase. This is how the same kata that you have been practicing for years can continue to be a challenge and a source of new information. While not opposed to verbal and more Western style education, a great deal of the onus of progress belongs to the student and the student alone.

Since we seem to have a number of newer folks on the board these days, I'll throw out some advice that Scott Irey gave me a few years back that I found really helpful. Scott said, "Son, never hang out in Roppongi with more than 2,000 yen in yer pockets." :toast: No, wait, that's not the advice I meant. What Scott actually said was that lots of iai/ken/batto students tend to see the poses within the kata (the moments where you stop moving) and focus on these points. The real meat of the kata is the spaces inbetween stillness. This is where you need to pay close attention (to your teacher and your own body). This ties into my earlier point in that it can be very difficult to accurately know what you're doing while you're moving, but that it's vital to acquire this ability. Appologies to Br. Irey for my rather poor paraphrase of his most eloquent prose... ;)

Hope that makes sense and helps.

[Charles Mahan]

Ditto. And I've heard Irey-sensei and others make the same comments about the important bits are what happens while you're moving.

It's a really easy trap for students to fall into. There are certain cues you can look for at the end of one phase of movement than can give you hints about things that occured during that movement, but you shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the important stuff has already happened. You shouldn't be trying to fix the ending position, but the actions just before. Fix the actions and the ending position will be right.

Originally posted by chrismoses
As you progress and learn, ideally your perception of what should happen and your ability to propriocept those movements should constantly increase.

Kudo's for working that word into a sentence :D

[Tim Mailloux]

Originally posted by Charles Mahan
Kudo's for working that word into a sentence :D

Charles,
Kudo's to you for knowing what it meant. Did anyone else have to look that one up?

[Tiger Ed]

Originally posted by gmlc123
That would only matter if the chips are located in the Monouchi... further down than that it really wouldn't matter IMO and the Ha is the strongest part of the blade if you opted to block versus parry.

Fair point.

[chrismoses]

:nw:

[Richard Elias]

"That would only matter if the chips are located in the Monouchi... further down than that it really wouldn't matter IMO and the Ha is the strongest part of the blade if you opted to block versus parry."

A chip anywhere on the blade could become a fracture and may eventually lead to the breaking if the blade is continuously used and the pressures on the portion where the chip is aggravate it. Not unlike scoring one side of a block of ice or a wooden plank and then striking the opposite side to break it easier.

The ha is the “strongest” portion for cutting but it is arguable whether it would be the best for blocking. Though it is the hardest part of the blade it is also the least resistant to shock, thus the chipping. One of the main reasons for the differential tempering in Japanese blades in the first place was that sword blades broke easier when the entire blade was tempered the same as the ha. That alone should tell you something about which part of the blade would be most resistant to a direct blow from another blade. Though the mune or shinogi make get cut into a bit (if receiving a direct blow) it will not chip and is not likely to break because it’s not as hard tempered. It also has to be taken into consideration that, depending on the technique used, the body will absorb a good portion of the force of the blow.

[gmlc123]

Let's put this in perspective.. in a life and death situation, I wouldn't care if my blade eventually fractured or broke. Just that I survived, and in all honesty I probably wouldn't care about that too much either.

If such a full strength blow was to be taken (blocked not parried) on the mune or shinogi then do you think that would result in anything different in the short or longer term?

Besides a sword is replaceable, your life isn't. As to whether the Ha, Shinogi or Mune is best.. I'm not even going there, it depends on the ryu and your teacher, and their teacher etc.. as to what way you do it. The rest is just semantics IMO.

[Richard Elias]

Well... if you're really going to put into perspective the entire conversation is moot. Very few who train in JSA actually do live blade on blade training, and virtually none will ever have cause to defend themselves in an actual sword fight. If your not concerned whether or not you survive any of the theorectical fights that JSA training is all about then why train in the first place.

But, for the sake of the conversation, which is all this is really about in a forum...

For those of us that do train with live blades the manner in which blocks are performed is very important. And that perspective could be applied to so-called realism as it could determine how long your sword will last you in a prolonged battle and how well it will cut the enemy (or enemies) as the fight continues. In that perspective you might actually care if the blade is fractured or brakes because you're not out of the fight yet.

[gmlc123]

Originally posted by Richard Elias
Well... if you're really going to put into perspective the entire conversation is moot. Very few who train in JSA actually do live blade on blade training, and virtually none will ever have cause to defend themselves in an actual sword fight. If your not concerned whether or not you survive any of the theorectical fights that JSA training is all about then why train in the first place.

In SMR the "shinken shobu" quality of our kobujutsu is a matter of life and death. To treat it any other way is to miss the essence of human concern (life and death) and moreover to limit the possibility of spiritual development. Others may see it differently, that's fine with me, in any event that's how I see it.

My comment about lack of concern for my own life, has more to do with detachment to this life and desire. Nothing more.



But, for the sake of the conversation, which is all this is really about in a forum...

For those of us that do train with live blades the manner in which blocks are performed is very important. And that perspective could be applied to so-called realism as it could determine how long your sword will last you in a prolonged battle and how well it will cut the enemy (or enemies) as the fight continues. In that perspective you might actually care if the blade is fractured or brakes because you're not out of the fight yet.

I guess it depends on your perspective and art. SMR isn't a battlefield art, so my perspective is different to yours I think. I could understand that if using an expensive shinken on shinken then you'd not want to damage it for training purposes. In a one-on-one situation pertaining to life and death, it wouldn't be my concern as it'd be over in the blink of an eye.

Your perspective is obviously different to mine, I respect that and agree the conversation and entire topic is for the most part a moot issue, so I'll leave it there.

Best wishes

[Walker]

If such a full strength blow was to be taken (blocked not parried) on the mune or shinogi then do you think that would result in anything different in the short or longer term?
Maybe I'm slow. I have seen the argument that in a "life or death" (now there's some drama) situation people don't care if they perform technique correctly because the stakes are so high. Now, setting aside the rarity of said "life and death" encounters, it seems to me that this is exactly the sort of situation where one needs to perform technique as correctly as possible. In this context that would mean executing parries with the correct blade orientation. Or in the humorous sensei tradition "Facing death, no excuse for sloppy waza!"

I am not taking issue with Greg just using his quote -- I think we would agree that proper mind-set discards all that is extraneous.

[Richard Elias]

Well met Greg.

Just to elaborate on some of these ideas, just because I feel like writing…

Life or death situation or not to a certain degree is irrelevant to the base fact that you will fight how you train. Not to diminish the weight of it, but in a true state of detachment it isn’t even a concern. If you are truly in the moment the consequences, though only a fraction of a second away, are too far into the future to be considered. To be concerned for life and death is a distraction which could lead to fear, and thus mistakes. Emotional detachment separates you from concern over your own life, your opponent’s life, and the overall result of the encounter until it is actually over. Inwardly focused and outwardly aware your technique should be pure and perfect.

Easier said than done.

Knowing the nature of the intricacies of swordwork one realizes that the slightest deviation in technique can have rather drastic results, for either you or your opponent. Turn the blade at just a little off the proper angle during a parry could make the difference between whether you walk away or not. Even in training, missing a body shift by as so little as a quarter of an inch can make the difference between going home after your session or making a trip to the hospital for stitching-up (I know this one personally).

Preserving your blade during an encounter with either one or multiple opponents (several against one was a very common tactic during the later years in which many sword schools advanced) isn’t just about being able to continue training in the present day, but having your sword last through the fight. Some styles are very, very aggressive and will smash right through your blade. I recently had been fortunate enough to observe a demonstration of such a style. The attacking technique was so aggressive the hardwood bokken (lignum vitae) was broken on the second blow. And the manner of the attack was such that defending against multiple blows was completely unavoidable. The last time I saw this man demonstrate his style the bokken used broke on the first blow, and that one was custom made for the training. I can only imagine what would happen to a real sword in such an exchange, but I for one would want to make sure that I’m blocking him properly so my blade can last, or I won’t.

As a samurai I would value my sword greatly as it is my livelihood, a symbol of my status, and a part of who I am, an extension of my very soul. If my sword breaks in battle so do I.

[renfield_kuroda]

Originally posted by Tiger Ed
In Mu Gai Ryu Hyo-do, not something I know a great deal about so dont ask, there is some parries with the Tsuka and the Saya. Well, I'm asking: please elaborate. I've never seen such techniques and, dare I say, I know a thing or two about Mugairyu.

Regards,

r e n

[Tiger Ed]

Like I said Ren I do not know much myself apart from what I have seen in a few books but in a what I remember Kata number 4 called Yoko-Tsuka-Tomoe, think its Side Handle circle (Not sure on the spelling) the attackers sword is parried with the Tsuka as you lean back then you draw in to their face, pull the blade fully out the Saya, cannot remember whats next but it is some kind of head cut.

Does this sound familiar as I do not have the texts with me so cannot be sure but if memory serves.

[Brian Pettett]

Ed, you got that from one of Darrel Craig's books, right? I have his "Iai" right in front of me along with our official training material, and let me side with Ren in that, in my relatively short six months in training, I've never heard of most of the movements listed in that text. Keep in mind that there are a couple of different groups calling themselves Mugai Ryu that are not connected to the main line, but I think it's strange that kata would differ that much. It's more likely - as many have said before - that Mr. Craig is teaching either a completely different subset of Mugai Ryu, or that he's full of beans.

[Tiger Ed]

Yes fella,

I do have the same text at home and though he must be in a different style, if it is not reconised but it is there (Same book, English version dont know if it is different)
I think you must be right that the style may be a different one, such as a different line of family perhaps. Do not think he made it up as that would get him into all sorts of trouble.

[Tiger Ed]

Like the 'full of beans' term.

[Brian Pettett]

No, I come off too harsh in the morning, it seems. :o Tried to edit it soon after, but it didn't take...

But the techniques shown in there are quite different than ours. I'd expect an offshoot of Mugai Ryu to have much the same techniques as the others, but then again I'm not too up on exactly why (and particularly 'when') these groups diverged in the first place.

[Tiger Ed]

Not to worry fells, we have all seen worse in this forum-try reading the thread I started 'Samurai vs Ninja' great for a laugh as people seemed to get heated.

DO you have a site I can take a look at whilst I am lazing at work, well working sorry working. Looked at Rens but, no offence, its not go a lot on the art itself. Do yopu know what I mean?

[renfield_kuroda]

Smashing to the face with the tsukagashira and then drawing and stabbing back sounds like one of the seitei kata, though I'm not entirely sure as I don't know much about seitei.
As for resources in English about Mugairyu; well, legitimate ones, there aren't many, sorry.
Feel free to search e-budo for mugai and darrell craig, and make your own conclusions about the quality of his authority regarding mugairyu.

Regards,

r e n

[Tiger Ed]

It is a Seitei Kata, first one. Thanks I will have a little read. Thanks for clearing it up, I think it must have split and gone under the same name.