Tachi or katana?

[JakobR]

Hello,

You often hear a distinction between tachi and katana where tachi is longer and carried hanging opposed to the shorter and belt-worn katana. In kata the sword is usually refered to as "tachi" eventhough carried katana-style. My question is if "katana" is a subgroup of "tachi" or if there is some other explanation.

Thanks!

[Enfield]

Do you keep your clothes in a wardrobe or an armoire? Same sort of thing here.

[Neil Yamamoto]

It's just like good sex or bad sex. It's all in how it's mounted. :rolleyes: :D

[Eric Montes]

actually in the study of nihonto. The signature on the tang (nakago) determines classification whether a sword is a katana or tachi. I don't have my refs with me, but if I remember correctly:
viewing signature with Ha facing right=katana
viewing signature with Ha facing left=tachi

Hmm. have to find my books.

[TimothyKleinert]

Don't tachi and katana use the same kanji? Don't they both simply mean 'sword?' And for that matter, isn't it the same kanji that is used for the 'ken' in kendo or the 'to' in tanto or gunto?

It's my understanding that the only significant difference between a katana and a tachi is in the mountings. It's not like European swords, where a longsword is a different weapon from claymore. Tachi's and katana's are basaically the same thing. (Weren't even some older tachi's retro-fitted with katana fittings (sorry, I can't remember the proper term) during the peaceful Tokugawa period period?)

[JakobR]

But in both Shindo Muso Ryu and in Tendo Ryu (and in most other schools)the sword side is refered to as "ukedachi" or simply "tachi" eventhough the "tachi" is carried and treated like a katana. Is this simply an "error" made by the inventors of the kata, or does "tachi" imply sword in a broader sense than "katana"?

[Texlander]

Hello all,

As both a martial artist and collector/appraiser of nihonto I can hopefully shed some light here. Most of your responses are "mostly" correct. However the determining factors of a Tachi are "ususally" #1 length, #2 curve, #3 signature, #4 mountings.

This will surprise most I assume but really anything over 28 inches long is really considered a Tachi, which is why maybe they are calling it that in your school. Historically, Tachi's came first (after Ken's). They were extremely long (about 2 1/2-3 shaku or 28-34 inches, very roughly) and about 900 AD became thin, tapered and very curved as they were mainly used on horseback for slashing. Signatures (usually) face to the outside of the wearer, so tachi's worn "upside down" or ha-facing down have the signatures opposite of Katana.

As soldiers moved from horses to foot, they started making shorter blades, worn edge up, that were easier to draw. Hence, the Katana was born. With little use for Tachi's anymore, most were cut down to about 27 inches more or less so they could be used. As the samurai went on and began using their swords daily for everyhting from duels to warfare, there became little need for the longer blades (except in cerimonial terms).

Basically, Katana's are Tachi's little brother. There are cut down tachi's in Katana mounts (I have one from 1394). There are a few Katana in tachi mounts. Tachi usually have a more drastic curve than katanas. Anything over about 28 inches is basically a tachi. Those of you practicing with slight-curved 30+ inch blades, sorry but technically they'd be tachi's and would historically be too long for use like a Katana unless a samurai was really tall or liked to keep his distance.

Hope this helps. There are plenty of Nihonto websites out there that can go into even more detail if you like.

Yours,

Derek May

[chrismoses]

From a martial artist's perspective, how a blade is mounted will determine how it is used, thus it's a tachi if it's mounted/worn like a tachi, and a katana if it's mounted/worn like a katana. I've never heard the distinction that you state (over 28" is a tachi). Where are you pulling this info from?

[leoboiko]

Don't tachi and katana use the same kanji? Don't they both simply mean 'sword?' And for that matter, isn't it the same kanji that is used for the 'ken' in kendo or the 'to' in tanto or gunto?

The kanji for ken/tsurugi (剣) (http://www.hm.tyg.jp/~acmuller/dicts/dealt/data/52/c5263.htm) is different than the one for tou/chi/katana (刀) (http://www.hm.tyg.jp/~acmuller/dicts/dealt/data/52/c5200.htm).

I'm not sure about "tachi", is it written as "large chi" (太刀)? If so, is "kodachi" written(�太刀)? :)

[TimothyKleinert]

Originally posted by Texlander
As soldiers moved from horses to foot, they started making shorter blades, worn edge up, that were easier to draw. Hence, the Katana was born. With little use for Tachi's anymore, most were cut down to about 27 inches more or less so they could be used.
It is my understanding that shorter blades were a direct result of the Tokagawan shogunate regulating the length of blades in the 1600's. (I believe Hyaku's site backs this up.)

Also, you make it sound like a soldier would wear their sword edge up while wearing armor. It was my understanding that a sword would only be worn edge-up ("katana-style") if they were in normal clothes. If they were ever in armor, the samurai would wear their sword edge-down and hung from from the belt ("tachi-style").

Also, it was my understanding that the increased sori of older blades had more to do with the fashion of the times, rather than some 'functional' reason. But I may be wrong on that point.

[JakobR]

Right, but if tachi and katana are two distict types of swords, why, why is katana in kata refered to as "tachi" and NOT "katana"?

[TimothyKleinert]

Originally posted by JakobR
Right, but if tachi and katana are two distict types of swords, why, why is katana in kata refered to as "tachi" and NOT "katana"?
We seem to be getting some difference of opinion, but it has been my understanding that they are not distinct types of swords. They are the same thing, simply worn with different fittings.

[Ben Bartlett]

Originally posted by TimothyKleinert
We seem to be getting some difference of opinion, but it has been my understanding that they are not distinct types of swords. They are the same thing, simply worn with different fittings.
This is always one of those fuzzy things. Strictly speaking, they are in fact distinct types of swords, although sometimes tachi were remounted with katana fittings. As for why it's called "tachi" in the kata, it's probably just a case of how precise you have to be. In this case, "tachi" just means "sword", and everyone knows what you are talking about. In a case where, for instance, nihonto collectors were discussing swords, the distinction between "tachi" and "katana" would be much more important.

[gendzwil]

Originally posted by JakobR
Right, but if tachi and katana are two distict types of swords, why, why is katana in kata refered to as "tachi" and NOT "katana"?
Because the word "tachi" is multipurpose. It can mean a specific kind of sword or a sword just in general. Whereas katana always means that style of sword, if you use that kanji to mean a sword in general you use the chinese pronunciation (to). So you see "tachi" and "to" pronounced in compounds where sword is modified by something (uchidachi, shidachi, odachi, kodachi, mogito, shoto, daito, etc etc).

Similarily with ken/tsurugi. Same character, when you use the Japanese pronunciation (tsurugi) you mean an old-style straight sword, but in a compound the chinese pronunciation is used and the word becomes more generic (kenjutsu, kendo, shinken, etc).

As was stated before, for katana/tachi style of sword you can tell by looking at the tang. The maker's signature goes on the side of the tang facing out when mounted as intended. So if a tachi has been set in katana mounts, you can tell this by taking off the tsuka and checking which side of the tang has the signature.

Generally, tachi are longer and more curved as they were intended for cavalry use but of course there are all kinds of exceptions to this. Swords were made in a variety of lengths and sori, and complicated by the fact that they get repolished or cut down if damaged or required for a different purpose.

[Eric Montes]

Originally posted by JakobR
Right, but if tachi and katana are two distict types of swords, why, why is katana in kata refered to as "tachi" and NOT "katana"?

Jakob,
From my standpoint, your question is referring to Tendo ryu. It is a convention and a preference of the ryu. It has nothing to do with the mountings.

Also the kanji for 'tachi' in Uketachi and Shitachi are different from the characters for tachi/katana/sword.

Eric

[ben kreiser jr.]

The signature on the "Nakago" (not tang) is NOT necessarily a good indicator. The Bitchu school for example were known for signing tachi on the "katana" side.

As far as the word "tachi", I understand it can also mean standing. So tachi waza is simply a standing one.

As far the lengths I mentioned above, check ANY nihonto website and verify.

Samurai did wear swords slung down when wearing armor, of course. But that doesn't make them tachis. The only people who normally wore tachis were high ranking officials, palace guards, or the emporer (at least after their heyday).

The Tokugawa DID regulate sword length, that didn't change the definitions between tachi and katana, it only regulated them. Katanas were in existence LONG before the Tokugawas!

Honestly, I'm surprised most of you haven't been taught this, it's all pretty basic sword stuff. IMHO, if you are learning the sword, it's wise to know a thing or two about its history. Check out Richard Stein's website and message board, they have lots of great information.

Derek May

[ben kreiser jr.]

Sorry, I forgot I was signed in under a friend's login. Oops! :)

Derek May

[pgsmith]

Samurai did wear swords slung down when wearing armor, of course. But that doesn't make them tachis. The only people who normally wore tachis were high ranking officials, palace guards, or the emporer (at least after their heyday).

The Tokugawa DID regulate sword length, that didn't change the definitions between tachi and katana, it only regulated them. Katanas were in existence LONG before the Tokugawas!

Honestly, I'm surprised most of you haven't been taught this, it's all pretty basic sword stuff. IMHO, if you are learning the sword, it's wise to know a thing or two about its history. Check out Richard Stein's website and message board, they have lots of great information.
Mr. May,
Just because you believe something to be true, and were taught that it was true, does not make it true. Honestly, I'm surprised that you believe that without bothering to look into it. Mr. Stein's web site is familiar to everyone here I believe.

The Japanese language is extremely context sensitive. Most westerners have problems with that, and want exact definitions when only haziness exists. This is the basis of the ever-present do vs. jutsu debates. The most succinct answer to the tachi vs. katana question was offered up by Karl Friday several years ago here ...
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5313

Sorry, but I prefer to accept the opinion of a professor of Asian history and a long time koryu practitioner to what you believe to be 'basic sword stuff'.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by ben kreiser jr.
...The only people who normally wore tachis were high ranking officials, palace guards, or the emporer [sic]...
Do you have a reference to the source of this information?

I'd like to read it, because this is not what I understand to be the case.



As to JakobR's initial question, there are several good answers here. Neil Gendzwill's is very clear and succinct, and also correct IMNSHO.

[Texlander]

I'm the first to admit I don't know everything. However, I have had enough swords and information come my way during my years practicing, studying, appraising, dealing and restoring Japanese swords to feel fairly confident in my conclusions of what I've learned.

As for examples, try here: http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/sugata/shape.htm from Mr. Stein's site and "The text of this article was used in the March 1999 issue of Sword Forum Magazine Online." The quote "A major change in blade style occured in the early Muromachi period as a result of a shift from cavalry to infantry tactics. The katana is born. The early katana were shortened tachi and have the shape of earlier Kamakura blades, but shorter. The shorter blades facilitated the draw from the edge up katana mounts by samurai on foot." Now, it's not the final say, of course.

Also, in the well recognized book "Craft of the Japanese Sword" by Leon & Hiroko Kapp & Yoshindo Yoshihara, p.20-23 discusses sword evolution and on p. 23 says, "In the Muromachi period (1392-1568)... Fighting, however, continued throughout the country, and there was a large demand for swords. Ultimately this led to mass-production and a sharp decline on quality. The intensity of warfare also led to the development of the uchigatana, a companion blade that, uniformaly curved, could be worn edge-side up at the waist so as to combine drawing and slashing actions in a single stroke. Ushigatana were about 24 inches long: they could be used with one hand and were practical for fighting indoors where tachi were not." Uchigatana is another name for Katana. In any event it should be evident there is evidence of a distinction between tachi and katana and between length.

As far as the Koshirae of the tachi, check out here http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/koshirae/koshirae.htm where the quote "The first swords made of steel were imported from China, and had Chinese mountings. The koshirae prototypes of purely Japanese design developed during the Nara period (646 ~ 794 AD), although they were still called "Kara-tachi", i.e. Chinese tachi. Only a few survived time, but there seemed to have been two types: swords in black lacquered wooden mountings for actual combat, and those richly decorated with semi-precious stones and fancy lacquering. Rayskin was used on the handles from time to time, but only became common during the Heian period (794 ~ 1185 AD). Swords of that time were called "Kazari-tachi" (decorative tachi) or "Hoso-tachi" (narrow tachi), already adjusting in blade construction to Japanese taste and usage. They were luxuriously mounted, and meant for use by the palace guard at the imperial court. Later on they became a little bit simpler with a "Shitogi-tsuba" (rice cake tsuba), renamed "Efu-tachi", and were still in use during the Edo period by imperial guards and high ranking officials. " or http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/glossary.htm where "There are several variations of tachi koshirae. The above is a Ito Maki tachi. Tachi are commonly associated with early Koto era swords and were worn by higher ranking samurai and daimyo. The tachi is worn edge down with the saya suspended from a sword belt. Tachi of various styles have been made from the earliest Koto eras through the modern period. The Kazari tachi was one of the earliest styles of Japanese sword. It had a straight kiri-ha zukuri blade. This style of tachi was used in the early Koto period, Nara and Heian eras, and was worn only by nobles of the Imperial court."


I didn't mention what I did because it was my opinion. Hell, my opinion doesn't add anything to the discussion. I only mention it all because of what I've gathered from MULTIPLE sources over the years, only a few of which I've given examples here by reputable and easily accessible sources (I didn't feel like going through ALL my books). Also, like the gentleman mentioned earlier, there are an INFINITE variety and variation of all of these things, so of course nothing is definite, you can only go with learned people's educated guesses.

Maybe all these people are wrong. Maybe all the people selling swords listed as Tachi are wrong or don't know. Maybe I'm perpetuating a falsehood. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being serious. But until I hear ALOT of other people saying something different I am forced to stick by what I beleive, as I'm sure you do with what you believe.

Like anything, information should always be taken with a grain of salt, but I thought this forum was for offering different views. If I offended anyone, I do apologize, it was not my intention. It's just in my experience with swords (especially on the collecting/appraising side) I thought this was basic info. I started out knowing nothing, and this is what I found. I only hope it gives another perspective, discussion, after all, is the spice of life right?

Thank you for reading this lengthy response,

Derek May

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Texlander
... Swords of that time were called "Kazari-tachi" (decorative tachi) or "Hoso-tachi" (narrow tachi), already adjusting in blade construction to Japanese taste and usage. They were luxuriously mounted, and meant for use by the palace guard at the imperial court...
Okay, that clarifies it somewhat. The higly decorated tachi were for use by the Palace Guard, etc. -- not all tachi.

Thanks for the links.

[Texlander]

Yeah. Never said all. I did say (so did the other gentlemen) there are infinite variety.

[Scott Irey]

Originally posted by Texlander

This will surprise most I assume but really anything over 28 inches long is really considered a Tachi........


Mr. May, I am sorry but the above statement is absolutely not true. Although tachi were often longer than blades made as katana, there are plenty of examples of katana...made as katana...exceeding the 28 inch limit you suggest. A tachi is a "type" of Japanese sword that exceeds 60 cm in length and is worn edge down (see Nagayama Kokan's definition in "The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords" pg.48) Also note on the same page a "Katana" is defined as a blade which exceeds 60cm in length and is worn edge up thrust through the belt. It also points out that "katana" is frequently used as a generic term for "sword". However the fundamental difference between what people refer to as either tachi or katana has more to do with the way in which the sword is mounted and worn than any other factor.


Originally posted by Texlander

........Those of you practicing with slight-curved 30+ inch blades, sorry but technically they'd be tachi's and would historically be too long for use like a Katana unless a samurai was really tall or liked to keep his distance.



As a practitioner of a very old Koryu sword art that traditionally uses longer swords (often in excess of 30 inches) I can tell you that although your above statement may be true for the particular style of Japanese swordsmanship you may practice it is certainly not true for all styles of Japanese swordsmanship. There are many very old schools of Japanese swordsmanship that encourage the use of long (often exceeding 28 inches) katana.

Regards,

[Texlander]

I'm sure you're right about different schools using longer swords. It's just like not all sword schools used just a katana alone. I'm speaking in VERY general terms just trying to give some broad strokes for the gentleman asking the question. I should have been more specific. I didn't expect to have to write an essay to clarify, I'll be more careful in the future.

As far as length being over 28" for a tachi, I'm sure you and the author you mentioned are correct in the academic sense (and I mean that as a compliment), and I've read similar things myself. I was really going by the increasingly common description of what most tachis on the market today are being labled as. For example, you can see at sword shows and on dealer sites (aoi-art comes to mind) that even in shirasaya most swords (not every) over 28" are being listed tachis (of course, the curve, signature, etc. comes into play, as it should). I was really trying to say that over 28" with a more drastic curve and possibly the "reversed" signature it COULD be considered a tachi. This is simply the way a lot of the current market language has been describing them, for good or for bad, and of course there are exceptions.

Katana I've found is like Karate, it can mean a pretty generic sword. I was trying to give a simple rule of thumb (if that's possible). As far as what I said about 30" blades being tachis, that I wholly admit is strictly my opinion based on drawing blades of various lenght, and even in katana mounts I found those blades draw like tachis (for me and those I've discussed it with). To each his own I guess.

Thanks,

Derek May

[gendzwil]

Originally posted by Eric Montes

Also the kanji for 'tachi' in Uketachi and Shitachi are different from the characters for tachi/katana/sword.

That would be "uchitachi" not "uketachi", you're confusing the "uke" term used often in judo and others. And the "tachi" is the same character, the translation for the two terms is receiving sword and entering sword IIRC. I'm not sure if the tachi in motodachi is the same one.

Someone else pointed out that tachi can also mean standing, but that is a different character/word, not a different use of the same word. Lots of homonyms in Japanese.

[Nathan Scott]

Actually, ukedachi is a term used in some koryu sword arts. Also, the kanji for "-dachi" are those used for "sword" (tachi). Usually arts involving sword will use either ukedachi or uchidachi for the senior side of paired kata.

The kanji provided earlier in this thread for tachi, btw, was correct.

In swordmanship, you have:

Shidachi - "performing sword" (the side that performs the intended waza). Typically performed by the "junior" side.

Uchidachi - "striking sword" (the side that provides the situation necessary for shidachi to perform the intended waza, which is usually a cut/strike). Typically performed by the "senior" side.

Ukedachi - "recieving sword". An alternate term for uchidachi, performing the same function.

Motodachi - "standing basis/formerly standing". This is a hard term to define literally, but combines the kanji for origin/basis/former and the kanji for standing (not "sword" in this case). This term is popular in kendo and atarashii naginata, and refers to a senior who assumes the position of leader/teacher for various drills and practices.

**

As far as tachi and katana are concerned, as mentioned, tachi is a general term that was and is used often to refer to Japanese swords loosely. When you use the Japanese word for "sword" a lot in your martial art, I think you'll find that saying "tachi" repeatedly is a much more comfortable choice of terms than saying "katana" repeatedly.

"Ki-dachi" is an alternate term for "boku-to", which are both older words for "bok-ken" (all different kanji combinations) - the term of choice now to refer to a "wooden sword".

Anyway, what is also worth mentioning here is that Japanese were not terribly specific about the nomenclature of various length blades until rather modern times. These days, we are very specific about what is/isn't a kodachi, wakizashi, etc., but previously many of the terms that we have tight definitions for now were interchanged rather loosley, which is probably why using tokenkai standards to analyze koryu art terminology can be confusing and misleading to say the least.

Regards,

[gendzwil]

I've also heard shidachi as "completing sword" or "finishing sword".

[Brian Owens]

Nothing new to add; just echoing what I think Nathan Scott and Scott Irey said: length is not the determining factor in whether a sword is a tachi or katana, but how it is worn.

There have been short tachi and long katana all through the various periods of swordmaking. During the transitional period it was not uncommon for a bushi to have several sets of fittings for one blade. Thus the same blade might be a tachi one day and a katana the next.

Most tachi may have been longer than most katana, but the main difference was in the mounting: if it was worn edge down slung from a harness it was a tachi. It it was worn edge up thrust through a sash it was a katana.

Unless it was a nodachi, wakizashi, uchigatana, ken, tsurugi... :confused:

I think I'll just say "sword" and avoid confusion. ;)

BTW, in regard to using different terms depending on the context; I formerly practiced "kenjutsu," yet on my menjo the calligraphy reads "to ho." And of course, even though we were practicing kenjutsu, we used either a katana or a bokken -- never a "ken." And before using a shinken, beginners used a practice katana called a mogito or iaito.

So why is anyone confused? :D

[Nathan Scott]

Hi Neil,

I've also heard shidachi as "completing sword" or "finishing sword".

Fair enough. What I wrote in quotes after each term were more literal translations of the kanji used. The kanji for "shi" refers to serving or working for. The term, "shite" (doing/performing hand) used in some taijutsu arts for example is the same role as nage, and is used in common Japanese to refer to a protagonist. Anyway, this shi kanji carries with it the idea of "to do" something, hence in the budo context of shidachi, "performing sword/side" is probably the closest to the literal translation.

But nothing wrong with using a more functional translation if it helps people understand the idea better.

Regards,

[gendzwil]

We usually just say "teacher side" or "student side" in english, which is the way most people think of it but isn't anywhere near a literal translation.

[hyaku]

Heres a fairly long one. Buts it's not in a tachi mount. As mentioned "Its the way they are mounted".

http://www.hyoho.com/013.gif