miyamoto musashi sword

[hiroyuki]

I saw on many websites selling sword, one which is called "Miyamoto Musashi sword". The particularity of this sword is that it has a really long hilt (tsuka-handle) and the overall length of the sword is the same as the other traditional swords.

1) Why is it called Miyamoto Musashi sword? Is it because the famous swordsman himself used this type of sword with a very long handle?

2) What is the difference between the Musashi sword and the traditional swords? Does the Musashi sword provide more cutting power, control etc...?

3) What are its + and - ?

4) I suppose it is for the exclusif use of kenjutsu not Iaido, isnt it?

[DCPan]

Well, in terms of what's on the market, anything with a Musashi tsuba is marketed as "Miyamoto Musashi" sword most of the time.

A sample of the tsuba can be found here:
http://www.bogubag.com/Swords/Swords/Specialty_Swords/habiki_L.jpg

By your description of a long tsuka, you are probably referring to the Musashi Koshirae by Paul Chen's company....

If you want specific evaluation of a sword, you should post a link or visit www.swordforum.com to see if it has been reviewed. Each vendor's interpretation of the "Musashi Koshirae" can vary....

:D

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by hiroyuki
1) Why is it called Miyamoto Musashi sword? Is it because the famous swordsman himself used this type of sword with a very long handle?
Maybe Hyaku or someone else who practices Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu (Musashi's style) can comment more specifically about the kinds of swords Musashi used, but I'll echo what David said in that many iaito and shinken models with the style of tsuba shown below are marketed as "Musashi Koshirae" or "Miyamoto Musashi" swords.

What's ironic is that I have read that this particular tsuba, the "double cucumber" style, was not actually designed or used by Musashi. The association was supposedly made incorrectly but has stuck over the years.

[Brian Owens]

Forgive the multiple posts, but I haven't yet figured out how to put more than one image in a post. I've seen others do it, but when I try it never works.

Anyway, SDK Supplies used to sell a daisho set that they said was patterned after the set used by Musashi in the Osaka Campaign.

As you can see from the attached photo, it didn't have a long tsuka. Whether this replica is historically accurate or not I don't know.

[Brian Owens]

Details from the SDK Musashi Daisho. You'll note that the tsuba is a little different from the one shown above: although it still has the "two cucumbers," the outside is a perfect circle rather than indented.

[Brian Owens]

Another feature many of the "Musashi" iaito I've seen have in common is the use of pebbled metal fittings like those seen here, although not all have the pebbled tsuba.

[Brian Owens]

For my final number this evening, here is a picture of the "Musashi" iaito from E-Bogu.com.

Like the others I'm familiar with, it has a "standard" sized tsuka, not the long style that seems to prevail on many Paul Chen products.

I hope some of this was helpful, if nothing else than to whet your appetite for more information hopefully to follow from those more knowledgable about Miyamoto Mushashi than I.

BTW, here's a link to a site with more information about Musashi and his art: Hyoho.com (http://www.hyoho.com)

[Jason Jennings]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
Anyway, SDK Supplies used to sell a daisho set that they said was patterned after the set used by Musashi in the Osaka Campaign.

Whether this replica is historically accurate or not I don't know.

I am pretty sure it is not historically accurate. The number of historical sources which place Musashi at the Summer and Winter Campaigns are very few and the actual descriptions are sparse. If I remember correctly the only weapon described in one account used by Musashi was a nodachi. Maybe something was written in one of the many fictional stories over the ages.

[Soulend]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
What's ironic is that I have read that this particular tsuba, the "double cucumber" style, was not actually designed or used by Musashi. The association was supposedly made incorrectly but has stuck over the years.

I could have sword there was just such a tsuba pictured in Victor Harris' translation of the Go Rin No Sho, said to have been made by Musashi. Apologies in advance if I am incorrect..the book's back in the States so I can't check.

Hmmm....check this out:

Original Musashi Koshirae? (http://www.japanesesword.com/Images/Swords/03/903/903kat5/rare_original_musashi_mounts_kat.htm)

[hyaku]

When I last visited the Shimada Museum they took out and let me hold what is descibed as Musashi's blade. They also have the original Tsuba on display as shown in the pictures.

Its a Kaki (Persimmon) design isnt it?

If anyone does a search for Shimada and finds photos of Sasaki Koijiro's sword in the red saya ignore it. A friend of mine was commisioned to make that a few years ago.

[Stephen_Bannan]

Didn't Musashi use a Oar?

[hyaku]

Originally posted by Stephen_Bannan
Didn't Musashi use a Oar?

Yes but he threw it away. Carved another one later and gave it to Hosakawa.

[kinopah]

i don't know... i have it on pretty good authority that he used one of these...

http://www.awma.com/index.cfm/action/productdetail/product_id/10121.htm

of far greater conjecture (these days) is the proposal that he used these shoes in his celebrated dual with the yoshioka school at ichijoji...

http://www.awma.com/index.cfm/action/productdetail/product_id/7778.htm

[Ren Blade]

Originally posted by kinopah
i don't know... i have it on pretty good authority that he used one of these...

http://www.awma.com/index.cfm/action/productdetail/product_id/10121.htm

of far greater conjecture (these days) is the proposal that he used these shoes in his celebrated dual with the yoshioka school at ichijoji...

http://www.awma.com/index.cfm/action/productdetail/product_id/7778.htm
These are originals and not reproductions right?

:p

[Ken Allen]

Originally posted by hiroyuki
The particularity of this sword is that it has a really long hilt (tsuka-handle) and the overall length of the sword is the same as the other traditional swords.


I seem to remember reading that Musashi was considerably taller than average for the place and time. Wouldn't a sword made to fit him (admittedly I have no idea if his was custom-made) have a longer-than average tsuka AND blade?

[Kenseii]

I think the "extra long Tsuka" Musashi that people mention is the Paul Chen Musashi:

http://www.lfchosting.com/digitalcanoe/knife/pictures/paulchen/images/1016-1017.jpg

[kinopah]

yeah, the cool thing about that chen model is that the blade is attached with velcro and the tsuka comes off so you can play wiffleball. it doesn't come with a ball, but you can buy one at cvs for like 98 cents.

[Ken Allen]

I thought of something else somebody in here might know. Did most samurai have their swords custom made, or were they often purchased "off-the-rack" I would guess that most samurai would have wanted their weapon to be tailored to their body and style, but it also seems like if a sword was broken (and it owner against the odds survived), he wouldn't want to walk around unarmed for two months while waiting for another one to be made.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Ken Allen
...Did most samurai have their swords custom made, or were they often purchased "off-the-rack"...

That's a very good question, and touches on several different aspects of samurai life.

It depends greatly on what kind of "samurai" you are talking about: first, of course, is that not all warriors (bushi) were samurai (members of a minority social class), and not all samurai were warriors.

Then would be the question of rank: a high ranking samurai, whether a military officer or an administrator, would of course have a custom made sword with the best quality fittings, while a rank and file ashigaru would most likely be armed with swords and other weapons from the domain's armory.

[Ken Allen]

Those I had in mind were the group who were samurai by social class, and bushi by profession, but not extremely high ranking in either sense. Pure speculation on my part would be that those without considerable income from some source likely wouldn't be able to afford custom work.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Ken Allen
...Pure speculation on my part would be that those without considerable income from some source likely wouldn't be able to afford custom work.
That seems very reasonable and probable to me; much like my current situation. ;)

[pgsmith]

Pure speculation on my part would be that those without considerable income from some source likely wouldn't be able to afford custom work.
While this is pure speculation on my part with no historical data to back it up, I'm going to go out on a limb an say that this is a wrong assumption. I am basing this opinion on the fact that the bushi were professionals.

Here is how I arrived at this conclusion ... My wife's father was a cabinet maker from Germany. When he immigrated, he was quite poor and had next to nothing. He was, however, a professional and as such had some wonderful and top notch tools. He said he had to have the best tools to do the best job, so most of his income would go to making sure he had the best tools possible. It is my belief that the bushi of old would have done the same thing. It can't compare with our modern day outlook since our lives don't depend on the quality of our swords.

Just my thoughts on it.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by pgsmith
While this is pure speculation on my part with no historical data to back it up, I'm going to go out on a limb an say that this is a wrong assumption. I am basing this opinion on the fact that the bushi were professionals. ...

I think that's a useful way to look at it, at least in the case of "sword-for-hire" types in the late Edo period.

But for the rank and file bushi in a large han it might be more useful to compare them with enlistedmen and lower ranking officers in the US Cavalry during the 1800s, or even today's "professional soldiers" -- except for colonels and generals, how many have custom made guns and uniforms? Most, I think, carry(ied) what is issued.

This comparrison is supported, I believe, by existing records that show important daimyo like the Tokugawas selecting the best swords from submitted samples, and then ordering hundreds of copies made to fixed standards.

We also know that for a full suit of armor to fit properly it is best custom-fitted to the wearer. But lower ranking samurai didn't have full suits, despite being "professionals." Often, their armor consisted of little more than a helemt and a chest protector -- again, an off-the-shelf item, AFAIK.