bokken

[malahayati]

hello!!I'm a new comer, just to make you know, I'm a teenage and I know just a little bit of martial art!!
I wanna ask a question!!

I've read "Musashi", and I've found some strange in that!!

I think in a normal life, a bokken almost can't kill anyone!!
but,if I'm not wrong, Musashi ever killed someone using a Bokken,
I know with the great power it might happend, but Musashi hit that guy used a bokken and make that guy's body destroyed like someone used katana or tachi.

is it possible?
is it caused of a high speed?

thanks!!

mala
7kyu, kendoka

[not-I]

Umm, Mala, you're speaking of the famous Musashi/Sasaka duel. A strong bokken strike to the head will likely crack it open, end of story.

P.S. you'll need to sign your posts with your full name or risk getting kicked (forum rules).

[Shimura]

There is an old saying in Japanese swordsmanship that I heard, and kind of agree with. "The bokken (or bokuto) breaks, while the shinken cuts."

I guess if you wnated to put things in a modern context, or analogy, take a baseball bat. If you hit somebody hard enough, for example in the skull, with a Lousiville slugger then don't you think this just may kill somebody, or at least injure them severly. Same idea I think.

[Kaoru]

Originally posted by malahayati
hello!!I'm a new comer, just to make you know, I'm a teenage and I know just a little bit of martial art!!
I wanna ask a question!!

I've read "Musashi", and I've found some strange in that!!

I think in a normal life, a bokken almost can't kill anyone!!
but,if I'm not wrong, Musashi ever killed someone using a Bokken,
I know with the great power it might happend, but Musashi hit that guy used a bokken and make that guy's body destroyed like someone used katana or tachi.

is it possible?
is it caused of a high speed?

thanks!!

mala
7kyu, kendoka

Hi!

Welcome to the forum!

Oh yes... Musashi killed quite a few using only a bokuto(bokken). I don't remember exactly how many, but it was a lot. Hyaku-sensei will know this. He's an expert on Musashi. :D

It is highly possible. It is a weapon and just about as dangerous as a sword when using it in a skilled manner. It wouldn't take much to kill somebody with one, if you know how to use it properly, and use force not allowed in the dojo. (Heck, an untrained person could kill a person with it too, but it would be harder to accomplish, I'd think, because they just swing carelessly any which way.)

Since you're kendoka, think of just the first kata. What would happen if you cut men and followed through, if you were doing the shidachi side of it? If you were allowed to actually cut men with full force, you would probably kill your partner. But, we only are allowed to do a floating cut, see? Imagine in your head what it actually does, in real life, if you were doing the kata for real, with no floating cut, but actual cutting and follow through with more force than we are allowed in the dojo as beginners. We don't wear men while doing kata. But, we are expected, as we become more experienced, to gain more speed in our cuts without actually touching our partner. If you lose control, your opponent/partner could die, or at best, be seriously injured as a result.

Does this scenario help to understand just a bit more? I hope it helped.

Sincerely,

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by malahayati
...I think in a normal life, a bokken almost can't kill anyone!!
Bokken, bo, jo -- all can maim or kill if used powerfully by a skilled practitioner.

Think of reports of people who have died after being beaten by riot police, or muggers wielding clubs, etc.

Musashi's duel against Sasaki on Ganryu Island is the stuff of legend, but there are plenty of modern cases as well. Yes, a bokken can kill.

[malahayati]

thanks for all the answer!!

I know bokken can killed like that, but that's not exactly what I mean!
Musashi hit the guy and cut his thumb by using bokken, I think just katana or something sharp that can do it.

and I'm not talking about Musashi_sasaki duel, I know sasaki got a bad damage in his skull by musashi's bokken hit, and it quite possible for me. Musashi is a strong man and he got an excellent technique.

what I'm really ask is, is it possible that bokken can make "a cut" like katana or something sharp do?

and if it's yes!! is it caused by a high speed when we swing the bokken?

thanks

[Bronson]

Something we sometimes do in iaido is to cut newspaper with our iaito. We have two people hold the four corners of a piece of newspaper and we try to cut it as cleanly as we can. It's a cheap way to test your blade angle every once in a while. If it's right the sword goes through with no resistance, if it's not right you just tear it out of the holders hands (remember iaito are not sharp). The last time we did it we thought we'd try it with bokken. Same thing happened. The cut wasn't as clean but it was definitly a cut, and if the angle wasn't right it just ripped the paper out of their hands. Weird thing was most of us were able to do it with a shinai and jo (short staff) also.

Years ago my roomate brought home a deer after the police released it to him following a car accident. While it was hanging in the backyard before being butchered he decided he wanted to do some "tests". With a bokken he was able to: pierce the chest cavity with a thrust and break one upper front leg bone in half with one hit. With a cheap ($45) katana he cut the other front leg off and cut the body nearly in two going through two ribs and the spine...though the entrails had been removed. He is completely untrained. It was kinda gross and interesting at the same time.

[Matt Wolfson]

I was under the impression that the intended target with a bokken would be the clavical. Reason being that if you break the clavical there is nothing to support the shoulder and arm, thus rendering it useless immediately. Where as a clean cut could still afford the enemy one final attack. Am I wrong in this understanding of why Musashi used a bokken sometimes?
Matt

[Daniel san]

Newspaper has a "grain". It is fairly easy to cut a straight line in one direction but not its perpendicular counterpart. Now, a bokken that cuts meat I can see as being factual; not one that cuts bone. If the wood were polished down to about the same geometry as a splitting maul, then heat tempered, and if the blade never came in contact with any thing, I might believe it.

[Bronson]

Originally posted by Daniel san
Newspaper has a "grain". It is fairly easy to cut a straight line in one direction but not its perpendicular counterpart.

True, which is why we made sure to cut the paper in both directions....but not at the same time obviously ;)

Originally posted by Daniel san
Now, a bokken that cuts meat I can see as being factual; not one that cuts bone.

If you're referring to the deer story, he broke bone with the bokken and cut through it with the cheap katana. The leg bone he broke was still dangling there by all the tissue.

Bronson

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Matt Wolfson
I was under the impression that the intended target with a bokken would be the clavical. Reason being that if you break the clavical there is nothing to support the shoulder and arm, thus rendering it useless immediately. Where as a clean cut could still afford the enemy one final attack. Am I wrong in this understanding of why Musashi used a bokken sometimes?
I suppose the target selection would depend on which one presented itself at the right moment.

Reports of Musashi's duel with Sasaki say that he carved an especially long and heavy weapon out of an oar, and crushed Sasaki's skull at the same instant that Sasaki almost cut Musashi's head -- the extra reach was Musashi's primary advantage. It pays to know your enemy.

[gendzwil]

Originally posted by Daniel san
Newspaper has a "grain".
Yes, just to clarify when you do the newspaper drill you are forcing the paper to tear along the grain. Get your hasuji right and it tears neatly. You can do it with iaito, bokken, shinai, saya, whatever... If you turn the paper sideways then you'll need something sharp.

For extra points, roll a single sheet of newspaper into a loose cylinder and tape it. Then stand it on a table and try to cut it. Honours points - leave the bottom part of the target standing. I've seen the cylinder cut (can't do it myself) but I haven't seen the bottom left standing.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by gendzwil
I've seen the cylinder cut (can't do it myself) but I haven't seen the bottom left standing.
Miura Takeyuki Hirefusa, Hanshi, 9th Dan, MJER.

[Stephen_Bannan]

A Bokken to the head will KILL you!

[hyaku]

Just noticed then thread.

I can add a bit by saying that our strikes to the head come from a very high hasso and finish less than an inch from the ground/floor.

They can only be parried by a shallow flowing deflection. Any strong angled block feels like and earthquake. One of Musashi's meanings of Niten (two heavens) is to raise the kensaki up high, reach for the heavens, then bring it "down" on the opponentas if the heavens have dropped.

Bit like as we say in English. "Bringing down the very heavens and the wrath of God"

[Stephen_Bannan]

A Blow to the head from a Bokken will stove in your skull and you will not live long. A bokken is a instrument of death. End of Story.

[Rough Rider]

Force = mass x acceleration. A bokken can kill.