Sarin

[rupert]

Who was the idiot, I wonder, that announced they found sarin gas in an old artillery shell detonated at the side of the road against US troops, and that it wouldn't work unless fired from an artillery piece?

No doubt it was an effort to rattle on about WMD, but don't you think a terorist might read the paper too? He might not have known what it was, but if he has more, ... well, he certainly knows now. Idiots.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=522408

[Juan Perez]

Originally posted by rupert
Who was the idiot, I wonder, that announced they found sarin gas in an old artillery shell detonated at the side of the road against US troops, and that it wouldn't work unless fired from an artillery piece?

No doubt it was an effort to rattle on about WMD, but don't you think a terorist might read the paper too? He might not have known what it was, but if he has more, ... well, he certainly knows now. Idiots.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=522408

I thought the same thing on my drive home today. Is this going to be worth it? I mean, perhaps the terrorists that put that shell there didn't know what they had ... until we told them. The problem, which is obvious, is that if this shell came from a stockpile, now they know that they have something more valuable than just high explosive.

I understand that if indeed there is a stockpile of sarin-gas-capable artillery shells, the arguments of many enemies of the current administration might fall apart. However, is winning this "argument" worth risking other chemical attacks on US forces? I believe that there are still WMDs in Iraq. The Iraqi government had them before the first Gulf War, they had it afterwards, and if they "disposed" of them, they never showed complete evidence of this. So, there is much unaccounted for. If it's burried somewhere, I hope we find it before "they" do. But, if they already have found them ... the consequences are yet to come.

[elder999]

Odds are really good this was a prototype found in the midst of conventional shells. The shells that Saddam used in the past required manual mixing of the agents before firing (!!!!:eek: )!!!

I still don't know how that worked!:eek:

[rupert]

On the news earlier, I heard that 'General' (aren't they supposed to be masters of strategy) saying - the sarin was safe because in order for it to be activated, it needs to be mixed (there are 2 separate chambers), and that such mixing is done as the shell rotates in flight before it explodes. So, the General just told the bad guys how to make the shell active. They might not be able to fire it properly, but it doesn't take much imagination ... Great strategy - not! Idiot.

[Juan Perez]

Originally posted by rupert
On the news earlier, I heard that 'General' (aren't they supposed to be masters of strategy) saying - the sarin was safe because in order for it to be activated, it needs to be mixed (there are 2 separate chambers), and that such mixing is done as the shell rotates in flight before it explodes. So, the General just told the bad guys how to make the shell active. They might not be able to fire it properly, but it doesn't take much imagination ... Great strategy - not! Idiot.

Rupert,

Actually, that kind of information is "open source" and if you look hard enough, you can find it on the internet (prior to this "general" having said anything). For the most part, weapons such as these are not "classified". What is usually classified is their use (engagement criteria, targeting and so on). What I see as the blunder is actually mentioning the nature of the weapon. However, let's look at it this way. If nothing is said and later on a bunch of US servicemembers come down with Sarin-related illnesses because of this blast, the media, the liberals, and rightfully, the families of those affected will condemn the "coverup" by the government. Then, those considered the "idiot" will be whom? Damned if you do, damned if you don't, huh?

I'm not one for name calling (such as "idiot" :) ) because being a part of this profession there have been many times when I've been privy to information that the public at large does not and (in some cases) should not know.

Anyway, if you want to know how these weapons work, get an on-line subscription to "Jane's" and look it up. Believe me, they don't check, and don't care who you work for as long as your credit card works. Why is all this info out there? Free country, "Freedom of Information Act", the people have a right to know; all results of a "free society". Come on, don't we just want to know everything? If I had it my way, you wouldn't even know how many troops make our total force construct. But, Congress, "we the people", need to know in order to wisely allocate funds towards those ends. Freedom has a price.

[gozanryu]

"On the news earlier, I heard that 'General' (aren't they supposed to be masters of strategy) saying - the sarin was safe because in order for it to be activated, it needs to be mixed (there are 2 separate chambers), and that such mixing is done as the shell rotates in flight before it explodes. So, the General just told the bad guys how to make the shell active. They might not be able to fire it properly, but it doesn't take much imagination ... Great strategy - not! Idiot"

Wow Rupert, an idiot huh? Hmmmm. You are right of course, now all the bad guys need to do is A: procure the field gun that the projectile is designed for. (about a 6000 lb howitzer) B: procure the firing charge. Then they will be able to fire the projectile through the rifling of the howitzer at about 1700 FPS to impart the necessary 2000 RPM spin to mix the chemicals. Thats all. However, a 168 MM howitzer being towed around MIGHT be a little conspicuous to the constantly orbiting Apache's and Cobras. So, since it "doesnt require much imagination", how do you invision the Bad Guys getting that done short of removing the chemicals from the shell (your dead) and fashioning another weapon. It is also funny to hear people suggesting that Sarin "doesnt count" as WMD LOL Political Agendas are truly hilarious. And the General's the "idiot" :cool:

[rupert]

The information might be available to those who seek it but the 'General' has basically told them they have some nasty weapons lying around, and how they work. I doubt whether the average Iraqi at present subscribes to Jane's, or hears much beyond everyday news.

It is not hard to imagine the Iraqi soldier looking for more Sarin shells and trying to figure out how to make them work. He might not succeed, but he might try. Or, he might just save them for later ...

I think the General was an idiot - some things ought not be said. He said it in the attempt to justify the WMD argument (short term political gain) without thinking of possible future consequences (the death of his men).

[Juan Perez]

Originally posted by rupert
The information might be available to those who seek it but the 'General' has basically told them they have some nasty weapons lying around, and how they work. I doubt whether the average Iraqi at present subscribes to Jane's, or hears much beyond everyday news.

I'm not going to try and convince you of anything. After all, I believe that your mind is already made up.

This is my last contribution to this topic:

It's not the "average Iraqi" that poses a threat. The "average Iraqi" wouldn't know how to weaponize the chemicals for effective use. The real threat are the guys whom are part of a network. They are organized and trained and have a support channel. I see your point and it's a good point. But ... ah well, it doesn't matter what else I write, does it? :)

Take care.

[Joseph Svinth]

Sarin is about the same age as the Volkswagen Beetle. It was developed by the same people, too, and it is about as state-of-the-art.

Like its kid sister, Zyklon-B, Sarin is essentially industrial strength pesticide. And, as with Zyklon-B, German wartime testing indicates that the stuff works better on people than it does on cockroaches. Cockroaches rule.

Think I'm making this up? Hardly. Try Google, using the keywords "Sarin chemical compound" and "making Sarin."

As for toxic stuff just lying around, try your local feed store.

[Juan Perez]

Good point, Joe.