Interesting fight

[DeLamar.J]

This is a clip of royce gracie vs some kung fu guy with 15 years of training. The guy obveously needs a little grappling training. I also dont think this guy represents kung fu very well either. Some of the kung fu guys I have seen would have frony kicked gracie right in his head diving in like that. I think some of these guys representing some of the striking arts are no where near experts, and it gives karate,kung fu ect a bad name. I have never seen an expert striker in any of those cage fights before. But yet they all claim to be experts. anyway here is the fight

http://www.subfighter.tv/vid/highlights/fight/Royce%20Gracie%20vs%20Kung%20Fu.wmv

Tell me what you think.

[BigJon]

I forget which UFC it was...Royce defeated a Kung-Fu stylist w/juji-gatame in a similiar looking fight. This Kung fu guy fought back a little harder though..nice clip!

[pacman2323]

I watched about a min of the fight.
Gracie seems to be the one doing most of the striking from stand up
but I don't understand why the kung fu guy went for the clinch with Gracie.When he is with Gracie on the ground he kept working his ribs
which finally allows him to escape his hold and for a second Gracie is turned around on his stomach then my feed got cut off.
Does he choke Gracie when he was on his stomach and the other guy was on top I am thinking no and Grice summits him with an armbar right?

-chi jonesone

[BigJon]

No, this ended up with Royce putting said (kung fu) player into triple threat, and then the punches follow...If I remember correctly, Royce just got up and quit...

[Jock Armstrong]

No. Royce gets to the mount and punches him out. I was surprised that Royce didn't remove him a alot earlier when he had an excellent oppurtunity to apply a rear strangle- then again, airmchair expertise, its always easier when you aren't doing it.:beer:

[tmanifold]

Originally posted by Jon G.
I forget which UFC it was...Royce defeated a Kung-Fu stylist w/juji-gatame in a similiar looking fight. This Kung fu guy fought back a little harder though..nice clip!

It was UFC 2 or 3 I think. Incidentally the Kung Fu guy was training with the Gracies at the time. Then Royce went and broke his arm. I don't know if he continued with them after that.

[BigJon]

Incidentally the Kung Fu guy was training with the Gracies at the time. NO WAY!- I didn't know that..wow. I just remember the announcer saying that he was a "Bareknuckle Kung fu" fighter...

[MikeWilliams]

Originally posted by DeLamar.J
I have never seen an expert striker in any of those cage fights before.

Then you clearly need to see more cage fights. The sport has evolved an awful lot in the last 10 years.

In fact, if anything, we seem to be coming full circle. In UFC 47, only two of the fights went to the ground - all the others were decided by stnd-up striking.

That clip was too big for me to download on my dial-up. Anyone care to tell me when/where it was from, and who the kung-fu guy is?

[BigJon]

Mike I don't think that it tells, I Had no audio.

This is the other kung fu stylist though. (That fought Royce in UFC 2)

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=22

[gozanryu]

That Royce knows his business. He is very adept at avoiding a striking contest. I think that Kung-Fu stylist made a pretty good showing. He most likely had no idea what he was getting into as far as Royces style. It would be could to see a "2 outta 3" match between those two.

[PwarYuex]

That was very interesting. Reminds me of some of the ground fighting we do in Bujinkan. Whenever my instructor tells me that I'm doing it incorrectly, while we're grappling, always just keeps striking me.

[Shin Buke]

This is probably old news to most of you but after watching that clip I decided to go browsing around at a UFC site. Apparently there's a guy named Sakuraba Kazushi who seems to be very adept at defeating the Gracies, so much so he's been nicknamed the "Gracie Killer." I watched a clip of a match between this guy and Royce Gracie and it was something to see Royce slowly get drained of his energy. He started out strong but it seemed like he just couldn't get Sakuraba down and lost his balance during the last few rounds of the match. Not to mention that Sakuraba was also doing a good amount of striking and was able to land some good hits. Maybe I'm a prude but it bothers me that a guy who dances around in some kinda power ranger mask with a mediocre record was able to beat Royce and his brothers. Then again, perhaps this reveals the weakness of a fighter who focuses on grappling and endorses the concept of learning how to both strike and grapple effectively.

I'm just curious what ya'll who are trained martial artists have to say about the match. You can nab the video clip here: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=19 right below Royce's bio. It's only a highlights clip but this is the only thing I have to go off of for now.

Also, the other clip on the page is pretty awesome. Getting to see Royce take down all sorts of UFC fighters really is something.

[gozanryu]

"Maybe I'm a prude but it bothers me that a guy who dances around in some kinda power ranger mask with a mediocre record was able to beat Royce and his brothers. Then again, perhaps this reveals the weakness of a fighter who focuses on grappling and endorses the concept of learning how to both strike and grapple effectively."


That mask is pretty funny, but. . . that guy is a hell of a fighter. He owned Gracie in that fight. Gracie has become a better striker, and is still one of the best competitors out there. The thing is, if your out there long enough, people are gonna find holes in your defense and offense.

[MikeWilliams]

This thread is very 4 years ago. :D

Seriously, all of you who last watched a UFC in the 90s owe it to yourselves to pick up some recent UFC or PRIDE tapes, just to see how the sport has evolved.

Oh, and Sakuraba may have come from a pro-wrestling background, but he was (remains?) one of the all-time great grapplers.

[Rick Kowarick]

The Gracie's have had an open no holds bared challenge to anyone who would come along since the 1950's in Brazil. They have stated that they had "never" lost a challenge. Rorion Gracie brought the challenge to the States in the late 80's, with a US$ 100K if anyone could beat them. Back then very few MA focused on ground fighting - Finishing holds - as did Brazilian (Gracie) Jiu Jitsu. Many showed up for the challenge, like Jason de Lucia, and were cought by surprise when rushed and taken to the ground. Where other MA stoped, BJJ began. Of all I saw, Jason, was one of the best of the street challengers. Due to his attitude when he went to the Gracie Dojo, Royce was instructed to make him submit by stricking and not by choking or joint locking.
Now a days ground fighting has been taken to a different level. Professional no hold bared fighters have throughly studied the Gracies fighting style and their weaknesses. And some of them have been beat. Now a days a good fighter must be a good striker and ground fighter, just one or another will not due in the Ring. Gracies were the fighters to beat for fame and fortune. Now they are doing their homework and becoming better strickers to regain the Top.

Just my two cents. :)

[PwarYuex]

Originally posted by gozanryu
He owned Gracie in that fight.

Gracie certainly was losing... Perhaps he wasn't his best? He kept having issues balancing.

[Rick Kowarick]

Incidentally the Kung Fu guy was training with the Gracies at the time.

Probably studied their video tapes, got beat by them more than once, but never trained with them.

[BigJon]

Probably studied their video tapes, got beat by them more than once, but never trained with them.

Yeah, a good test for this is to ask the individual to pronounce any of the Gracie's sons first names...."R"(HOYCE, etc...)
When the guy says Royce (Like Rolls royce) keep shopping...

[Jack_Redfield]

That whole thing looked like a couple of unpracticed kids going at it. In all sincerity, I've seen smarter barfights. The man in white obviously has a twitch point somewhere between 2'6", and 3'. Not to mention that two well-blocked kicks do not precipitate a third.

Also, it was easy to see that after the first block, the man in white has no close-quarters block ability. Likewise for the man in shorts. They were too spooked by each other to notice these things.

When the man in white finally went on the offensive, he started with a sloppy half-cocked front kick. If the man in shorts and kept his weight on the front leg, and shifted to the his back leg by stepping to 7:30, he could have deflected the kick just by putting his hand on his thigh. This would have over extended the man in white, and at that point the humiliation would begin. Point to ponder: Mobility is easier to maintain by keeping most of your weight on one leg.

[MikeWilliams]

Jack, that was a quite astonishing piece of armchair quarterbacking. Are you serious?

You do know who Royce Gracie is, don't you?

[Gene Williams]

Shhhh!!! Jack...if you don't open your mouth, no one will know you are a moron...:rolleyes:

[Rick Kowarick]

Rewind...playback...slow motion...analyse position...look up the Karate how to book...Oohh the guy in short should have done this and than that...Give me a break!!! This is not Holywood, it is the real thing Jack! I thought this type of thinking was dismistified in the last 10 years with no holds bared competitions!! And this fight with Jason DeLucia was a year before the 1st Ultimate, he had no idea what he was getting into.

When a challenge of this type happens (and I have been in a few), it is to fast to think on what you should do! Agaisnt a grappler, such as Royce Gracie, you have two options: a) spraw if you have the space, and b)try a Hail Mary knee strike to the head. If you spraw correcly you might avoid going to the ground, but you will be cliched (If you are clinched most likely you will end up on the ground eventually). If you are sucessful and nail your knee strike you will do serious damage if not a KO, if not you are on the ground. And there is no worst place to be than on the ground with a Gracie. There you are a sheep and they are the Lion.
No more comments...

[Rick Kowarick]

Gracie certainly was losing... Perhaps he wasn't his best? He kept having issues balancing.

Royce Broke his foot during the competition while blocking one of Sakuraba's low kicks. The best he could do is stay down and try to bring the fight to the ground. I can't really remember how long the fight was (1:45:00?? I think), but it was a long one.

[Iain]

As an aside... Sakuraba's no slouch. I my opinion, his record doesn't do him justice. Besides, he's one of the only NHB fighters who is consistently fun to watch due to the outrageous moves he regularly attempts in the ring. I've watched most of the Royce/ Sakuraba fight (its something like 90 minutes long and gets really really boring) and he beat him good and square. BJJ is just Judo without ippon. It's not some miracle art, or something new and amazing, it's just a whole lot of really good newaza.

[Rick Kowarick]

BJJ is just Judo without ippon.

Ian, I must dissagree! To say BJJ is just Judo is the same as to say Karate is just Tae Kwon Do or Kung Fu.

these are just 10 differences between the two:

1) The only ippon in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (BJJ) is submission.
2) Many joint locks of BJJ (leg,knee, ankle & neck) are prohibited in Judo competition.
3) Judo competition lasts usually between 2 to 5 minutes, BJJ lasts 5 (white belts) to 10 minutes (black belt).
4) Judo has about 30 seconds time limit for ground fighting, BJJ has no time limit for ground fighting.
5) There is no victory in BJJ for holding down the opponent.
6) The point system for BJJ is different than judo. Take downs: 2 pts; Passing the guard: 3 pts; Knee to the belly: 2 pts; Mounted possition: 4 pts; the back: 4 pts; submission: ippon & advantage poits for attacking and making the opponent make a defensive move.
7) There is no limit in the point system for BJJ competition (ie. a bout could be 10 to 2; 20 to 14, etc.)
8) weight system is similar but BJJ has one more category.
9) BJJ competitor can only compete against a equivalent belt. Unlike Judo there are belt divisions for competition (white, blue, purple, brown & Black)
10) BJJ dogi has less fabric material than the Judogi. The regulation BJJgi has half diameter of the the sleeves and panth legs compared with regulation Judogi. Bjjgi cannot be used in Judo competitions.

Though BJJ may look like Judo and use similar throws and ground work, the two are quite different.

[kenoka]

Rick,
All of your differences are competition rule related. I believe Iain was looking at the technical curriculum of the two arts, and indeed you can find the roots of all of BJJ's techniques within Judo. If you changed Judo shiai rules to match BJJ's, you'd probably see lots more newaza. Obviously the rules dictate how competitors train, but the techniques that became BJJ are all there in Judo.

As for the video, it's a pretty classic matchup from ten+ years ago, where the striker has no tools to deal with the grappler's game. The game has evolved, and everyone has gone out of their way to develop either a ground fighting game, or tools to counter the ground fighting game. Ironically, it seems to me that the proponents of BJJ have cancelled their own axiom "all fights end up on the ground" by dint of their own success.

[Bod]

BJJ excels first and foremost in the way it uses theory and teaching practices to get information across quickly. Their videos are the best MA instructional videos I've seen in terms of teaching power.

That just leads to increased technical ability on everyone's part. Including even some of us Judoka ;).

[MikeWilliams]

Originally posted by Bod
BJJ excels first and foremost in the way it uses theory and teaching practices to get information across quickly. Their videos are the best MA instructional videos I've seen in terms of teaching power.

That just leads to increased technical ability on everyone's part. Including even some of us Judoka ;).

Spot on! Have you been randori-ing with Nelson Solari again?

Mike (who did very badly indeed at Nelson's recent BJJ tourny)

[Rick Kowarick]

Ken,

...and indeed you can find the roots of all of BJJ's techniques within Judo.

I agree with you with the fact that the roots of BJJ is Judo. In fact, Carlos Gracie (father of BJJ) studied under Isei Maeda (Count Koma)around 1915. Maeda Sensei was an instructor from the Kodokan sent to the US circa 1904 to Judo at Westpoint. Not being able to make a living teaching Judo, became a Pro Fighter. He is known as the Man of 1000 fights, he traveled the world fighting for money. Count Koma wrestled against a variety of MArtist (Catch, Indian Wrestling, Greco Roman, Judo, Jiu Jitsu) and fought against (boxers & browlers). With this vast experience he gave basis of our BJJ. He eventually ended up in Brazil and passed this to Carlos Gracie.

If you changed Judo shiai rules to match BJJ's, you'd probably see lots more newaza.

True, but it would take years mayebe decades before judoka to develop the tecnical know how of complex ground fighting. This is not something you pickup over night. Black belt judoka competitors are placed in the purple belt (BJJ rank system: white, blue, purple, brown & Black) division in BJJ tournaments.

Obviously the rules dictate how competitors train, but the techniques that became BJJ are all there in Judo.

In the last 90 years Judo evolved to best take down MA with a gi, and BJJ evolved to be the most complete submission ground fighting system with a gi. BJJ training and tecniques are based on 95% Newasa, quite different from Judo training.
Just because there are similar newasa transition possitions between Judo and BJJ does not mean their the same. What is most important in BJJ is what happens inbetween the positions, that is where all the tecnique is. There are also many tecniques that are pure BJJ and do not exit in Judo.

I still stand to the fact that Judo & BJJ are as similar as Chaun Fa is to Kenpo & Karate. BJJ is not just Judo without Ippon, though Judoka have a head start compared to others.
:smilejapa

[jest]

Originally posted by Shin Buke
Also, the other clip on the page is pretty awesome. Getting to see Royce take down all sorts of UFC fighters really is something.

from that sherdog page: Unbeleivable!

;)