Argh

[Kawakami Gensai]

Shirasaya swords. Everyone here knows what that is. A site was selling them under the name of "stick swords". It's also amazing how forged steel blades only cost $70 now (note the sarcasm). What is our world of Budo coming to...?

[Andy Watson]

Too much watching of Zatto Ichi me thinks.

[fifthchamber]

Hi Andy...
You can NEVER watch TOO MUCH Zatoichi......Never......I promise....And believe me, I HAVE tried...
Regards!

[Chrono]

Originally posted by fifthchamber
Hi Andy...
You can NEVER watch TOO MUCH Zatoich.

I'm sure that's true. However, I've yet to see any of it. I'm anxiously waiting for the movie to come out, though.

[Ken-Hawaii]

We had one new student who came to our iai-do dojo with a shirasaya sword about three months ago. He lasted about a month before e-mailing Sensei & stating that he was quitting due to "unsafe conditions at the dojo."

I followed up on that, & found that the idiot had managed to saw off a good chunk of his left hand when practicing noto....:eek: Hard to blame that on anyone else.

And Sensei just told one of our senior kenshi that he can't start iai-do because he also has a (cheap) sharpened steel sword. I think that's a good idea.

Ken

[Soulend]

Ken, I'm surprised your sensei allowed him to train at the dojo with that thing ("shirasaya sword"). Shirasaya is, as you know, a means of storing an unmounted blade, nothing more.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Sensei obviously advised everyone to purchase real iaito, but if a student said he couldn't afford one, he was still allowed to practice.

Ken

[SLeclair]

Originally posted by Ken-Hawaii
Sensei obviously advised everyone to purchase real iaito, but if a student said he couldn't afford one, he was still allowed to practice.


Perhaps he should reconsider that policy. If he is responsible for the safety of his students, certainly allowing anyone to practice with a sword in shirasaya or a wallhanger puts everyone at risk because of the potential of the sword to fall apart and stab someone.

And I believe a real sword in a real shirasaya probably can't be swung at all, as it is not held tightly within the shirasaya "tsuka". So he was using one of those wallhangers, most likely. Always dangerous, to him and others.

No one should be stopped from practicing, but if they can't afford an iaito, then they practice with bokken. Simple enough.

---
Sebastien L.

[Soulend]

Also makes one wonder how a student can be taught to perform koiguchi no kirikata correctly using a SLO (sword-like object) that lacks a tsuba. Tsukekomi certainly would be interesting...

I believe some dojo have less expensive 'loaner' iaito available for students to use during class if they don't have their own. Perhaps this would be a safer idea which would also facilitate correct technique.

[Andy Watson]

We don't allow anyone to start with either a wallhanger, iaito or shinken. Not only is their the danger of the sword flying out of the tsuka with low quality swords but there is also the danger of the sword flying out of the beginner's hands with an overenthusiastic swoosh.

Everyone start's with a bokuto and it isn't too much of a problem to get people to emulate proper koiguchi kirikata or noto.

It just makes so much sense to start them off with wooden swords and virtually no sense to start them with metal ones regardless of the quality.

[kabutoki]

Hm,
all the dojo I know have the same simple rule. First a bokken, later a Iaito.
Though it sounds strange, I think the complaint by the student is not completely wrong. A teacher has responsability for those who train under him. Since he can´t be with everyone every minute he should give his new students something he can let them alone with, a bokken.


Karsten

[Chidokan]

I usually teach using a bokken and saya... its too easy to be distracted when showing detailed points. And I hate beginners with anything sharp, especially when they dont look before they cut.:eek:

[Andy Watson]

I'm really interested to know how beginners go with bokuto/saya combinations.

We recently held a beginners course and I was offered bokuto/saya sets but declined at the time as I thought it might be too much info for people to deal with. However in the end we had to teach them different things to what we were demonstrating with shinken and iaito. For their part, they had to emulate having things which they didn't have.

Now I am reproaching myself a bit for specifying tachi only teaching.

How does everyone else feel about it?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Our dojo is going through similar soul-searching, Andy. Maeda-Sensei recently decided that all kendoka who reach the rank of ikkyu must also start studying MJER iai-do.

In fact, I started a thread asking for opinions about how best to combine kendo & iai-do in a class. You may want to check out http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26935 to see if there's anything helpful for you.

Ken

[nicojo]

Perhaps your sensei wants ikkyu to learn seitai because of ZNIR bylaws. I don:t know myself.

My american sensei has quite a few iaito so lets beginners use his, but recommends to buy an iaito after so many months of practice. A bit of gentle weeding out methinks, since they can be expensive, and one should find out if they really are in to it. As far as bokken and shinken, like iaito and shinai, every weapon has its purposes in training and otherwise, don:t you think?

Correct if wrong, but bokken with saya are relatively recent. Every school is different. I am sure my teachers would not turn away someone who used it, but would also find a way for them to train the way the sensei thinks they should learn, whether iaito, shinken or bokuto.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Well, we practice ZNKR rather than ZNIR at Kaifukan, but I don't know in either case whether the teaching of iai-do is required. Does anyone else happen to know?

So far, all six of us students are using iaito, but all have bokken from kendo. What I've been trying to find out is whether the new ikkyu students can perform Seitei Gata, as a minimum, while using bokken instead of iaito. Most students can afford iaito, but probably not all those who will reach ikkyu this year.

So if anyone is using bokuto for Seitei Gata, please let me know.

Ken