Japanese Battle Axe

[SeventhSentinel]

Just wondering if Japanese used battle axes, what they looked like (would they just have been something a japanese woodcutter picked up to defend himself from), is there a ryu using them? I was just thinking practicing uke nagashi that a battle axe or hammer would pretty much crush my blade and then me.

p.s. yes, i know the block was designed for a sword attack

and i dont mean naginata or did they just figure the naginata did everything a axe could so never bothered with another design?

[cxt]

Seventh


You might check out Ratti and Westbrooks "Secrets of the Samurai"

At least I recall that being the title.

Actually has a line drawing of a Japanese battleaxe.

Some text with it.

Don't know how much info is there but it might be a start.


Chris Thomas

[Kenseii]

The Japanese "Battle Axe" was known as an Ono (Just Japanese for "Axe" I think. Several sizes were in use including one that resembled a larg Halberd.

Also seen pictured in "Ninjutsu History and Tradition"by Masaaki Hatsumi.

[Matt Molloy]

Originally posted by Kenseii
The Japanese "Battle Axe" was known as an Ono.

Didn't John Lennon have one of these? :laugh:

(I'm sorry. I think she's great really but I just couldn't resist.)

I'll get my coat.

Cheers,

Matt.

[tsurashi shondo]

Originally posted by Matt Molloy
Didn't John Lennon have one of these? :laugh:


Matt.

:D :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Kenseii]

I did hear she was abit of a battle axe.

Back on topic though, I have seen pictures of Hatsumi sensei with an Ono that must have been more than 8feet long.

[SeventhSentinel]

Tnx cxt and Kenseii, I was wondering about that because i was quite sure that they didnt use halberd style tools to cuz wood as it wouldnt be very efficent. I also thought that something in use as a household tool would more likely be used in something like the okinawan arts or by the ninja (dont jump all over me i know little bout ninja sides what i read here). I actually found a couple pics on ebay

now doesnt this look like it would make an effective armor cleaver? or even a potent projectile weapon

[SeventhSentinel]

oops other pic

[SeventhSentinel]

*sigh*

[Ron Tisdale]

Maybe its just me, but I see that as very much tool oriented...not weapon oriented. Its just not shaped the way I'd want an axe used for weaponry shaped.

RT

[SeventhSentinel]

ok thanks so your clues i was able to look this up...


Shinden Fudo Ryu is a school of Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu/Jujutsu Jujutsu (Jp: 柔術 "Gentle/Yielding Art", Kunrei-shiki: Zyûzyutu) is a Japanese martial art.

Shinden Fudo ryu has many body conditioning methods using items found in nature. The school also teaches Ono (A very large axe), O-tsuchi (A very large hammer), and O-dachi (A huge sword).

It was founded by Genpachiro Tameyoshi in the middle of the 12th century

According to http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com

Its one of the ryuha taught in the Bujinkan

damn ninjas get to play with all the cool toys :(

[Jack B]

Are you sure you want to stand there and try to block an incoming blow in ukenagashi? In our "receiving flowing" waza, we move out from under the cut. You may be over-analyzing an introductory version of the waza.

[kabutoki]

Hi,
whether you like the Bujinkan or not, you might want to get your hands on the first of the two Togakure Ryu DVDs from Buyubooks (http://www.buyubooks.com/product_details.cfm?id=10797) . Don´t let the name fool you, the techniques displayed seem to be from more than one ryuha.
The battle axe fight is nice...

Karsten

[Liam Cognet]

Wasn't an axe called a 'bento' or 'benoto' or somthing like that?

And here's one for you anime fans: In Hiroshi Kenshin - trust and betrayal, at the end of the 4th episode, there is a ninja who uses a very large axe. What do ya think of it?

just saying is all...

[kabutoki]

Hi,
bento is a lunchbox, benoto apparently some kind of construction method on difficult soils. Judging from your guesses you may mean the "bisento" (lit.: eyebrow-shaped blade). It was not an axe but more of a heavier version of a naginata. Maybe you could call it a halberd (not sure about the english term). One example can be seen here (http://www.bujinkan.ie/bisento2.JPG).

Hth
Karsten

[Joshua Smith]

Dear group,

There were several types of Japanese battle-axes. Many were utilized by the Yamabushi or warrior monks. The common nmaes for a Japanese battle-axe were "ono", "fuetsu", and a "masa-kari". I'll post pictures of them right now.

Here is the Ono from "Secrets of the Samurai" ....

[Joshua Smith]

Here is a real ono. Pic provided by a good friend...

[Joshua Smith]

Last, but not least, here is a pic of a Masa-kari. Hope these pics help.

God bless,
Joshua Smith

[cxt]

Joshua

Cool!

Thanks!


Chris Thomas

[John Connolly]

Did the warriors of ye olde Japan ever use war-hammers?

[Joshua Smith]

Originally posted by John Connolly
Did the warriors of ye olde Japan ever use war-hammers?

I'm not too sure John. I've never come across a Japanese war-hammer before, but I'm sure they're out there.

If you're looking for a hard-hitting Japanese weapon I think I have what your looking for. It was called the "tetsubo". It's an iron club with strips of steel and they are either studded or spiked. They were usually around 4 to 6 feet in length and were obviuosly designed for the stronger Bushi. This weapon is one of my personal favorites! This thing will leave a mark...:eek:

God bless,
Joshua Smith

[Kenseii]

I would truly love to find a school still teaching Tetsubo... Although I doubt my Elbows could take it.

[Joshua Smith]

Originally posted by Kenseii
I would truly love to find a school still teaching Tetsubo... Although I doubt my Elbows could take it.

The school in question is called Tetsu Jumoku Ryu (Iron Tree). It encompasses Tessenjutsu, Bojutsu, Jujutsu and Tetsubojutsu.

The tetsubo was said to be a thorn covered branch off of a metallic tree. It's students are reknown for their strength and toughness.

This style was invented by Makino Tadakira in the Muromachi Era (1542-1573). He was actually a Samurai in Oda Nobunaga's army.

Interesting huh?

God bless,
Joshua Smith

[Johnny Yuma]

I thought that I remember seeing an old pic of a bunch of samurai, and sure enough, there was a HUGE war hammer, about 6 feet long. I am guessing it was a useful tool for knocking down gates and doors. I will try to remember the name of the book. Anyone else here know what I am talking about?

[kenkyusha]

Originally posted by Kenseii
I would truly love to find a school still teaching Tetsubo... Although I doubt my Elbows could take it.
Doesn't at least one branch (teehee) of Kuki still teach Tetsubo as part of the Chuden curriculum?

Be well,
Jigme

[pgsmith]

The school in question is called Tetsu Jumoku Ryu (Iron Tree). It encompasses Tessenjutsu, Bojutsu, Jujutsu and Tetsubojutsu.

Joshua,
Just thought I'd let you know that the school you just indicated is someone's creation for an on-line RPG.

Cheers,

[Ron Tisdale]

Hmmm, why doesn't that surprise me...

Thanks for the note, PG...

Ron

[Jeff Ellis]

Originally posted by Joshua Smith
Here is a real ono. Pic provided by a good friend...

i would hardly call guido a "good friend" of yours. he hasnt poste don the sfi in quite some time.

the axe is a very interesting piece tho.

and the style you mention bears a striking resemblance to what you used to claim was your kanjitsu style.. and i quote "Tetsu Kuma Ibuki Ryu self-taught/created"

joshua, please stop lying. just admit that you are picking things up from online.

go out, buy a few books.

for the original poster, heres a link to the thread on japanese axes over on the sfi

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37593&highlight=japanese+axe%2A

[Soulend]

Tetsu Jumoku Ryu:

CHARACTER BONUSES Add 10 to Chi Add 1 to P.S. Add 1 to P.P. Add 1 to Spd. Add 5 to S.D.C. COMBAT SKILLS.

[Joshua Smith]

Heh thanks PG. I wanted to help Kenseii and I didn't read the part below it. Oh well..

Jeff, you again show your class or lack thereof. You're only posts are always directed towards slamming me. I'm actually pretty flattered that you have all my posts at ready disposal, post only when I post and you even followed me to a whole separate forum! Wow, you must really have no life huh Jeff?? :D

BTW, Jeff, why hasn't Guido posted anymore? Have you noticed that his avatar is also gone? I heard somewhere that SFI is slowly starting to get rid of the Japanese part of the Forum! That would be quite sad if it does happen.. would do you think?

Again thanks PG for correcting me.

God bless,
Joshua Smith

[Jeff Ellis]

Originally posted by Joshua Smith

BTW, Jeff, why hasn't Guido posted anymore? Have you noticed that his avatar is also gone? I heard somewhere that SFI is slowly starting to get rid of the Japanese part of the Forum! That would be quite sad if it does happen.. would do you think?

Again thanks PG for correcting me.

God bless,
Joshua Smith

joshua, i'm not at liberty to tell you, or anybody else for that matter, what happened with Guido-sama, although i do know exactly why he no longer participates. your information is wrong.

Sword Forum INTERNATIONAL, buddy, they are not getting rid of the japanese part of the forum.

I had a theory as to why he left, i asked a trusted source, a well known togishi, that is of close acquaintance with guido and was told what happened.

i was asked by mr ko not to say anything, so i am holding my promise to mr ko.

all i will say, is that if you paid as much attention as you say you have, you should have seen it coming. and you'd understand the situation completely.

:)

[Vnguyen]

Joshua,

I think the reason that Mr. Ellis has taken a liking to you specifically here. Are because of your posts on Sword Forum and here. You posted Sword Forum International acting like a "newbie". But some how had the clout to show up on E-Budo posting and acting like an authorative figure. I've seen your post here and on Sword Forum. I don't believe you know the people or have the knowledge to backup your claims.

I highly suggest you take a back seat in the posting. And lurk around these forums for a while before making anymore statements. As there are quite a few people here who know quite a bit more about the Japanese Sword and its related topics then you.



V Nguyen

[Joshua Smith]

Originally posted by Jeff Ellis
joshua, i'm not at liberty to tell you, or anybody else for that matter, what happened with Guido-sama, although i do know exactly why he no longer participates. your information is wrong.

Sword Forum INTERNATIONAL, buddy, they are not getting rid of the japanese part of the forum.

I had a theory as to why he left, i asked a trusted source, a well known togishi, that is of close acquaintance with guido and was told what happened.

i was asked by mr ko not to say anything, so i am holding my promise to mr ko.

all i will say, is that if you paid as much attention as you say you have, you should have seen it coming. and you'd understand the situation completely.

:)

Sorry I don't keep up with all the "soap opera" events lately on SFI :D. I wasn't saying SFI was going to get rid of the Japanese part, it's a mere rumor and I was interested if you had heard it as well.

Yes it is Sword Forum INTERNATIONAL, buddy. That's where my shock came from upon hearing this rumor. If it's true or if it isn't, oh well...

Honestly Jeff, I really don't know why you have this "vendetta" against me. I have done nothing to insult you or offend you in any way that would've caused this crap. I really hope it isn't becasue I didn't agree (politley, I might add) with your take on my horimono..?

I'm pretty sure it's not, but I really think we should stop this, and if you don't agree with me on something, please let me know, but in a civilized manner. I am still very new to the Japanese sword "universe", but if I see something I know I can answer accurately, I answer. The exception to this was with the "tetsubo-jutsu" post I posted. As you know I appologized for my inaccuracy and I thanked PG for bringing it to my attention.

Do you see how PG told me Jeff? Like a gentleman. That's how. No insults, no slamming, just simply informing me.

So please Jeff, let's stop this and enjoy our time on these forums without being at each other's throats. Does that sound cool Jeff?

God bless,
Joshua Smith

[Jeff Ellis]

Originally posted by Joshua Smith
Sorry I don't keep up with all the "soap opera" events lately on SFI :D. I wasn't saying SFI was going to get rid of the Japanese part, it's a mere rumor and I was interested if you had heard it as well.

Yes it is Sword Forum INTERNATIONAL, buddy. That's where my shock came from upon hearing this rumor. If it's true or if it isn't, oh well...

Honestly Jeff, I really don't know why you have this "vendetta" against me. I have done nothing to insult you or offend you in any way that would've caused this crap. I really hope it isn't becasue I didn't agree (politley, I might add) with your take on my horimono..?

I'm pretty sure it's not, but I really think we should stop this, and if you don't agree with me on something, please let me know, but in a civilized manner. I am still very new to the Japanese sword "universe", but if I see something I know I can answer accurately, I answer. The exception to this was with the "tetsubo-jutsu" post I posted. As you know I appologized for my inaccuracy and I thanked PG for bringing it to my attention.

Do you see how PG told me Jeff? Like a gentleman. That's how. No insults, no slamming, just simply informing me.

So please Jeff, let's stop this and enjoy our time on these forums without being at each other's throats. Does that sound cool Jeff?

God bless,
Joshua Smith

no vendetta, just breaking you in :)

[Joshua Smith]

Yeah, yeah whatever Jeff! :)

So can we coexist peacefully on a single forum for now on Jeff??

God bless,
Joshua Smith

[Jeff Ellis]

Originally posted by Joshua Smith
Yeah, yeah whatever Jeff! :)

So can we coexist peacefully on a single forum for now on Jeff??

God bless,
Joshua Smith

i'll have to get back to you on that.

[Joshua Smith]

Originally posted by Jeff Ellis
i'll have to get back to you on that.

I just want to stop further arguments and stop flooding threads with our arguments.

Either way Jeff, you being my friend or not, it doesn't effect me whatsoever. So take all the time you need...*shrug*:rolleyes:

God bless,
Joshua Smith

[Jeff Ellis]

Originally posted by Joshua Smith
I just want to stop further arguments and stop flooding threads with our arguments.

Either way Jeff, you being my friend or not, it doesn't effect me whatsoever. So take all the time you need...*shrug*:rolleyes:

God bless,
Joshua Smith

stop taking things so seriously, buddy ;) you'll live longer and have kess gray hairs. besides, fighting on the internet is like playing in the special olympics, sure, you may win, but you're still special...

;)

friend, no.

acquaintance, yes.

a pointer tho: when talking about the japanese sword, a beginner, such as yourself, should not make themselves sound as tho they are a definitive source. there are wiser, much older people out there that know a lot more than you and will get upset at it.

one thing that really irked me, no need to drag it on any further after this last tip, is that you quoted something from "Secrets of the Samurai", and Keith Larman told you not to take the book too seriously, and you argued that it was a good resource.

In a dojo, arguing with your sensei when he said something like that will get you a quick trip to the floor and possibly the infirmary.. infirmiry.. hospital. online it just gets you into a flame war.

in a case like that, a simple "hai, sensei" would suffice, sure you may not agree with his opinion, but you do not say it to your sensei's face.

after all, we all know the meaning of "sensei", right?

[Joshua Smith]

fighting on the internet is like playing in the special olympics, sure, you may win, but you're still special...

Like I've said Jeff, I don't want to have a fight with a faceless avatar. Many of the fights wouldn't have occured if manners were excerised a bit more ;).

when talking about the japanese sword, a beginner, such as yourself, should not make themselves sound as tho they are a definitive source.

I never once said that I am an authority on anything regarding the Japanese sword. I'm merely a student, as you are as well. Very few people can be classified as an authority. I'm quite aware Jeff, that there are people out there who know much more than I do. Obviously man! I've never made a comment saying otherwise..

Regarding the book in question... Surprisingly enough, those few posts between Keith and I was not a fight, or even an argument. Take a look at it again. You can see me actually asking Keith on what parts he found inaccurate. Also I used that quote from the book about the Japanese battle-axe and as you can see it was correct.

The book is a good resource, but not for swords or especially Ninja. The sections on armor, weapons besides swords, especially are quite accurate in my book (no pun intended).

In a dojo, arguing with your sensei when he said something like that will get you a quick trip to the floor and possibly the infirmary.. infirmiry.. hospital.

I don't know where you come from Jeff, but a sensei beating up a student just for correcting him will go to court..court..jail.

One last thing Jeff...I don't keep quiet. As you know ;). When someone says something wrong or disagrees with soemthing I know to be a fact, I say something. Regardless of status, rank, whatever.

Many students in my class in Iaido, are very young and know little to none on Japanese swords. On one occasion a visiting sensei told us that frequent uchiko cleaning (once a week) was beneficial to a Shinken's polish and health. You think I kept quiet Jeff??

One thing I hate is people, who influence beginners with what they teach, saying wrong things. This is something I certainly don't keep quiet about. I don't care if it's a Sensei. Wrong is wrong and mistakes beg to be corrected.

I know you might disagree with me there, but that's how I do things Jeff *shrug*.

For once...Nice talking to you.

God bless,
Joshua Smith

[Jeff Ellis]

Originally posted by Joshua Smith
I've never once said that I am an authority on anything regarding the Japanese sword. I'm merely a student, as you are as well. Very few people can be classified as an authority. I'm quite aware Jeff, that there are people out there who know much more than I do. Obviously man! I've never made a comment saying otherwise..

i never said you said you were. you come across that you want to sound that way though.


Originally posted by Joshua Smith

Regarding the book in question... Surprisingly enough, those few posts between Keith and I was not a fight, or even an argument. Take a look at it again. You can see me actually asking Keith on what parts he found inaccurate. Also I used that quote from the book about the Japanese battle-axe and as you can see it was correct.

The book is a good resource, but not for swords or especially Ninja. The sections on armor, weapons besides swords, especially are quite accurate in my book (no pun intended).


Originally posted by Joshua Smith
I don't know where you come from Jeff, but a sensei beating up a student just for correcting him will go to court..court..jail.

i come from a traditiona martial arts school. my example wasnt meant to be taken the way you took it.

Originally posted by Joshua Smith

One last thing Jeff...I don't keep quiet. As you know ;). When someone says something wrong or disagrees with soemthing I know to be a fact, I say something. Regardless of status, rank, whatever.


once you get a job you'll realize that its useless.

Originally posted by Joshua Smith

Many students in my class in Iaido, are very young and know little to none on Japanese swords. On one occasion a visiting sensei told us that frequent uchiko cleaning (once a week) was beneficial to a Shinken's polish and health. You think I kept quiet Jeff??


you should have out of respect for the man. sensei means "one who came before me". i do hope you at least waited for him to leave before making any comments.

Originally posted by Joshua Smith

One thing I hate is people, who influence beginners with what they teach, saying wrong things. This is something I certainly don't keep quiet about. I don't care if it's a Sensei. Wrong is wrong and mistakes beg to be corrected.

I know you might disagree with me there, but that's how I do things Jeff *shrug*.

For once...Nice talking to you.

God bless,
Joshua Smith

once again, when you grow up and get a real job, you'll realize tht you need to keep your mouth shut in order to survive.

also, i would seriously wonder my worth to a sensei if he didnt get the least bit annoyed when i corrected him. i studied under the grandmaster of my martial arts system for 4 months, you did NOT argue with him, what he said was gospel, no questions asked. if he said you needed to do a jig in a ping-te, when you never dd one in it before, you did a jig, no questions asked.

[Jeff Ellis]

joshua, check your pm's. i'm going to make it very clear what i am saying.

[pgsmith]

First, I have to say that you guy's arguments are exceedingly silly. Second, I feel I have to respond to a couple of things you posted Joshua ...
On one occasion a visiting sensei told us that frequent uchiko cleaning (once a week) was beneficial to a Shinken's polish and health. You think I kept quiet Jeff??
Unfortunately I doubt that you kept quiet. You should have though. There are actually several different schools of thought on that issue, his opinion is one of those schools of thought. You don't have enough experience to debate the issue, so you should have let it pass.
One thing I hate is people, who influence beginners with what they teach, saying wrong things. This is something I certainly don't keep quiet about. I don't care if it's a Sensei. Wrong is wrong and mistakes beg to be corrected.
While I can appreciate the thoughts behind that statement, you don't have enough experience to definitively know right from wrong. Most things are neither absolutely right or wrong, such as the thoughts on using uchiko. Most things are a shade of grey, and it takes training and experience to be able to try and figure out just what shade it is. Some things are more wrong in one context, but more right in another. Training and experience help you decide which it is.

Looking at things as if they were all black and white is usually a sign of inexperience. Keep the enthusiasm and lose the attitude. It will help you a lot more in the long run.

Good luck!

[Joshua Smith]

Guys....when I speak to my sensei on a comment he made, I say it with the utmost repsect and I DO indeed wait until the actual class is over to bring up my question. I also address each of my disagreements as a question and not a rude, loud declaration..

Whenever I privately disagree with my sensei on something, they actually sit down and discuss it with me. Contrary to your experiences with your senseis. It seems to me that your bosses and senseis can be a little hot-headed or even egotistical. Everybody must have their minds open and not react aggresively to a different opionion then that of their own.

OBVIOUSLY, there are times to keep your mouth shut. But the times I mention re not those times. I never approach my sensei rudely or aggresively and I approach him privately.

They are silly aren't they PG?? Jeff, once again I say please stop starting arguments on these threads. If you have somethig to say, please PM me for now on as you did recently. This way we can say all we want without "hijacking" a thread. Alright? So if you want to add something to this to me Jeff, please PM me... I'll check your PM right now...

God bless,
Joshua Smith

[Soulend]

.

[Jock Armstrong]

Amen Reverend Craik..........drive a man to drink it would:toast: :nw:

[gmlc123]

David,

:laugh: That's very funny and witty indeed.. now where in hell is the e-budo omnipotent demigod/s, and why aren't they answering our prayers?

[Maro]

Originally posted by Jock Armstrong
Amen Reverend Craik..........drive a man to drink it would:toast: :nw:

I'd drink at that Church!
:D :D