An Open Letter about spelling/grammatical/translation errors

[Amphinon]

Does spelling matter?

Of course! And so does grammar. However, an English teacher does not interupt a Social Studies class to correct the students. Correction should be done at the proper time and in the proper manner.

This topic came about because of the actions of a few members.

Now, if these particular members were to stop their Martial Arts class and correct their instructor, what punishment would they endure for these interuptions? Push-ups? Scoldings? Perhaps cleaning the floors? Who knows.

Is spelling and grammar a big part of Martial Arts? No. Truth is Martial Arts doesn't need spelling to be Martial Arts. Neither does it need grammar. Neither does it need translation. Neither does it need ranks or belts. Martial Arts is the pusuit of self-defense.

The way I see it, if these members wouldn't correct their instructor's spelling and grammatical errors during class, they also shouldn't against other people. Would they say, "Sensei? Don't you mean punch instead of puch here in the handbook, and isn't this a dangling participle?" No. They wouldn't during class out of respect. These same members do not respect their fellow E-Budo members. How do I know? Simple. I was corrected on spelling on another occasion by a different member. They contacted me by PM. They told me how I could get it corrected. You see, it is how you do it.

So to those of you who who do this (you know who you are), please consider that just because you are a Martial Artist that have flawless writing skills, doesn't mean you have to ridicule and bring to a stop an entire discussion to satisfy and stroke your ego. Lord knows that any more stroking and that thing might go off!

Here is my suggestion. Since spelling/grammar/translation errors are high on the list of pet peeves for these members, lets have all potential posts screened for speeling/grammar/translation errors before they go up. And let's have these members be the ones to screen them all.

[Sharp Phil]

Your ability to express yourself in a text medium such as this one goes directly to one's credibility online. Whining about it only emphasizes one's lack of ability in this regard.

[CEB]

For those of you who watch what you eat, here's the final word on nutrition and health. It's a relief to know the truth after all those conflicting medical studies:

1. Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

2. Mexicans eat a lot of fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

3. Africans drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

4. Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

5. Germans drink a lot of beer and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

CONCLUSION: Eat and drink what you like. English language is apparently what kills you.

[Matt Molloy]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
Your ability to express yourself in a text medium such as this one goes directly to one's credibility online. Whining about it only emphasizes one's lack of ability in this regard.

Some leeway however is surely deserving for the people who don't have English as their first language.

Basically put, my German/French/Russian/Japanese/Chinese/Whatever would have to be pretty good before I would get petty on their posting in English although saying this, I note that most of the mistakes come from people who have English as their first language. :D

Cheers,

Matt.

[Matt Molloy]

Originally posted by CEB
CONCLUSION: Eat and drink what you like. English language is apparently what kills you.

Brilliant. :laugh:

Cheers,

Matt.

[Sunndew]

I had an English teacher tell me once that English is the hardest language to learn. It has so many rules that overide other rules not to mention the spelling rules are just plain crazy. She was amazed that anybody that spoke a different language could actually learn and in most casses become profecient in English. I have to say that I agree with her. Feel free to correct grammer/spelling mistakes I make. I know that it doesnt matter how I say or spell something as long as the point I am trying to make comes across the correct way.

[larsen_huw]

My mum teaches English as a foreign language.

Most of the stuff she teaches I don't know.

English grammar hasn't been taught here in England for many years ... I've never had any specific grammar teaching sicne i first learnt to cobble a sentance together.

[Steve Williams]

Originally posted by CEB
CONCLUSION: Eat and drink what you like. English language is apparently what kills you.

Ah, but Americans don't speak english do they........ not real english anyway ;) :D

[Shitoryu Dude]

There are more people currently speaking "American English" than "The Queen's English", so we win. :D

Aside from a few spelling variations and nouns they are mostly identical. Which can make it fun when having conversations with those that aren't up on the differences. :p

Part of the problem is that schools (public ones anyway) no longer teach sentence construction, grammar, and spelling. Most high school graduates currently have a 5th or 6th grade understanding of their native tongue.

OF course, trying to maintain the rules of the language as static from 150 years ago is silly. The rules then were based upon the common usage, which has changed significantly in several regards in the meantime.

:beer:

[MikeWilliams]

Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
Aside from a few ... nouns they are mostly identical.

Like "Fanny". :laugh:

Or the way you think "Randy" is a proper noun, rather than an adjective...

[Shitoryu Dude]

Depends on capitalization.

We just think it is funny as all hell when you name someone "butt" :laugh:

[Amphinon]

Phil,

Wouldn't that make what happened to my thread make Tony Kehoe an Agenda Troll?

He's on a personal mission to correct spelling/grammatical errors to the point it kills the discussion.

[Sharp Phil]

I haven't read the thread in question. I'd put him on ignore if he bothers you.

[gmlc123]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
Your ability to express yourself in a text medium such as this one goes directly to one's credibility online. Whining about it only emphasizes one's lack of ability in this regard.

Credibility:
The quality of being plausible, believable, dependable, or worthy of confidence.

The ability to express yourself (articulate) has very little to do with the qualitive substance of actual content being expressed. So which does give one credibility online the ability to articulate nonsense well or the actual substance and quality of the content being expressed rather than the method?

The assumption that one's credibility is directly linked to their level or ability to articulate themselves is just another form of elitist sophistry for ego-centric individuals IMO.

[Sharp Phil]

The ability to express yourself (articulate) has very little to do with the qualitive substance of actual content being expressed. So which does give one credibility online the ability to articulate nonsense well or the actual substance and quality of the content being expressed rather than the method?

The assumption that one's credibility is directly linked to their level or ability to articulate themselves is just another form of elitist sophistry for ego-centric individuals IMO.

Like it or not, people judge you in life based on how you conduct yourself and on how you communicate with them. The smartest person in the world, when speaking in a trailer-trash accent evocative of Jerry Springer talkshow guests, sounds stupid regardless of the words he speaks.

In a text medium like this one, your ability to write becomes even more important. Your sentences are the readers' only means of getting to "know" you. I've known brilliant teachers whose online "voice" sounded nothing like their real-life communication, and they come across as much less than they truly are as a result.

This is not necessarily "fair" -- but it is an inescapable fact of this medium. Certainly, if we take the time to get to know someone personally, we come to understand him -- and to place in him credibility -- in ways that we never could based solely on his written words. Seldom will any of us truly get to know other participants in this medium, however. The vast majority of us are and always will be letters on a screen. The vast majority of us are and always will be making judgments about the intelligence, knowledge base, and credibility of the others with whom we speak based on how well they do that.

Take, for example, "ACAMAC." His inability to write coherently made him a joke almost before he began. Chances are we might not have thought him completely mad had he been able to communicate in English. The same could well be true of, say, Bruce Baker.

None of us is perfect. All of us will be judged on how close to that ideal we come, on average. This is not egotism; this is not sophistry; this is not elitism. This is simply the nature of this environment.

[tmanifold]

Spelling and grammar are important but there is no need to get anal about it. When I write an article, I spell check it, then I proof read it and then I send it to Phil and he fixes it. That ensures my articles go out with a few errors as humanly possible. However, when I have 5 minutes to type a reply, I don't care so much. If I spot an obvious error, I correct it but if not I let it slide because I don't have time to bother. Some people are big on spelling. I am big on people using words that don't exist like irregardless. I also don't like it when people write a whole lot of words when simpler words would suffice. Why say, "His words are not unscientific" when you can say "His words are scientific." It seems like a little thing but it bugs me. However, I shut my mouth because I understand the point. If the poster comes off like an inbreed with a grade 2 education then sure I won't take him as seriously as someone who writes to the standard of a Sharp Phil or Kimpatsu but that is a little different then a spelling error like "hte".


When this all becomes a problem is when people try to use spelling to shoot down someones arguement. For example, "Why should I listen to your thoughts on etiquette when you can't even spell the word". Listen people, if it is really such a big deal for you I have an idea. Copy the text of the post to word then spell and grammar check it. Then proof read it. When it conforms to your standards, read it then construct your reply.

Edited to change right to write. In a post about spelling it was fated.

[gmlc123]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
Like it or not, people judge you in life based on how you conduct yourself and on how you communicate with them. The smartest person in the world, when speaking in a trailer-trash accent evocative of Jerry Springer talkshow guests, sounds stupid regardless of the words he speaks.

In a text medium like this one, your ability to write becomes even more important. Your sentences are the readers' only means of getting to "know" you. I've known brilliant teachers whose online "voice" sounded nothing like their real-life communication, and they come across as much less than they truly are as a result.

This is not necessarily "fair" -- but it is an inescapable fact of this medium. Certainly, if we take the time to get to know someone personally, we come to understand him -- and to place in him credibility -- in ways that we never could based solely on his written words. Seldom will any of us truly get to know other participants in this medium, however. The vast majority of us are and always will be letters on a screen. The vast majority of us are and always will be making judgments about the intelligence, knowledge base, and credibility of the others with whom we speak based on how well they do that.

Take, for example, "ACAMAC." His inability to write coherently made him a joke almost before he began. Chances are we might not have thought him completely mad had he been able to communicate in English. The same could well be true of, say, Bruce Baker.

None of us is perfect. All of us will be judged on how close to that ideal we come, on average. This is not egotism; this is not sophistry; this is not elitism. This is simply the nature of this environment.

Moreover it's the nature of some individuals, I would suggest, and not just as a result of this environment (ie. written forum) as you imply. The fact is that a judgemental attitude is a form of critical attitude that stems from a strict, overbearing conscience and rooted in a person's pride.

Fair or not, like it or not, it's still not a compassionate, caring and nuturing attitude that all humans desire, and again says just as much about the person making the judgements. So I'll leave it there, I've said way too much already. :)

[Sharp Phil]

While it may indeed be very "compassionate" to deny the nature of the medium, reality remains what it is regardless of our feelings.

[Matt Molloy]

Originally posted by gmlc123
Moreover it's the nature of some individuals, I would suggest, and not just as a result of this environment (ie. written forum) as you imply. The fact is that a judgemental attitude is a form of critical attitude that stems from a strict, overbearing conscience and rooted in a person's pride.

Fair or not, like it or not, it's still not a compassionate, caring and nuturing attitude that all humans desire, and again says just as much about the person making the judgements. So I'll leave it there, I've said way too much already. :)

Erm...Greg...?

You don't happen to know Chris Eubank at all do you? :laugh:

Cheers,

Matt.

[gmlc123]

Matt

Do you mean this dude?
http://speakers-uk.com/celebrity-speakers/chris-eubank/

:laugh: Can't say that I do, but would be happy to meet with him as long as it doesn't cost me $$.. btw some of the bio background gives me a sense of deja vu though. ;)

Thanks for drawing the comparison, especially re: half-baked philosophy and figure of ridicule, I needed a good laugh :D

Originally posted by Matt Molloy
Erm...Greg...?

You don't happen to know Chris Eubank at all do you? :laugh:

Cheers,

Matt.

[Matt Molloy]

Aye, the boxer.

It was just the use of extremely correct English that made me make the comparison (this is not an insult by the way) which strangely enough is sometimes used to ridicule him although he comes across as super cool in his cameo in "The Calcium Kid." :D

Almost as if fighters aren't allowed to be articulate. :laugh: Sadly I have a long way to go on this. :D

Cheers,

Matt.

[Blackwood]

Martial Arts is the pusuit of self-defense.

That is a pretty big assumption. It is that statement that seems to be the biggest challenge on almost every Martial Arts board I've ever visited. Always breaks out into flame wars.

Do spelling and grammar count? Definitely! I don't agree with being anal about it and constantly using it to harangue everyone.

But I would rather have some spelling and grammar errors than people that present their opinions as facts.

I almost always type in a word processor and than paste. It is the 'second pair of eyes' that helps me. But it is a long way from being the ultimate answer. And some don't have spell checking software, believe it or not!

I don't believe anyone commented on the original post. My spell checker spotted three or four. (Example, see quote.) And there are a couple of grammar uses that would make Strunk & White lose their cool. Don't know Strunk & White? Pick up a copy at any new or used book store, it is a required text for just about every course that involves writing. Probably the most required and least used text in writing history! My engineering courses even listed it! Also can be found on most secretaries' desk. I'd be surprised if Sharp Phil didn't have one handy, or at least its equivalent.

Does everyone need to run everything through a spell and grammar check before posting? Not in my opinion. But there is a huge difference between the occasional typo and consistent abuse of the English (and other) languages.

[gmlc123]

Originally posted by Matt Molloy
Aye, the boxer.

It was just the use of extremely correct English that made me make the comparison (this is not an insult by the way) which strangely enough is sometimes used to ridicule him although he comes across as super cool in his cameo in "The Calcium Kid." :D

Almost as if fighters aren't allowed to be articulate. :laugh: Sadly I have a long way to go on this. :D


Matt,

Truth be known I actually failed English doing my Higher School Certificate, got only 15 out of 100 (100 being the highest), and overall was placed in the bottom 10% of the entire state academically. Never went to College/University and have absolutely no scholastic qualifications, of course this does show through quite often in fact!

Every school teachers' written report on me from Grade 3 onwards summised, in essence, that I was a spasmodic student. Nevertheless, I did learn to read.. which was the greatest gift from my schooling IMO. :)

So whose to say we can't be more than just letters on the screen and if we want to take the time, have the desire, don't make assumptions and/or have expectations that everyone should be on the same level.. then we can get to know each other personally. We all have something to learn from each other, regardless of MA rank and/or status, both inside and outside of the dojo. Humility is the key to it, pity some don't see it that way though.

Best wishes
Greg

[Soulend]

Does everyone need to run everything through a spell and grammar check before posting? Not in my opinion.

Of course, spelling checkers are quite unneccesary if one has learned to spell properly in the first place. If a word doesn't look right, I break out the dictionary or use Yahoo's online one.

Like the cellular phone, spell checkers are one of those things that have become so oft-used that people seem to no longer be able to remember what it was like before their existance, and that we got along just fine without them using our brains. This shows in their handwritten work, and is one of those things that I wish could be un-invented as it encourages carelessness and dependence on gadgetry. Reminds me of the girl at the checkout counter busily typing digits on her calculator to discover how much change to give me from a $1.00 bill for my 76¢ purchase.

I'm pretty much with Phil here. This medium, like others, relies on the written word. We are judged by the pixels we put on the screen, and blatant disregard for spelling and grammar in a text-based environment is similar to a radio host repeatedly mispronouncing things and stuttering. All the same, I don't see the point of beating someone to death over a spelling error, an incorrectly parsed sentence, or a misplaced comma. All it does is derail the thread and proves more irritating than the grammatical error was.

[Soulend]

And yes, I realize I mistyped "existence". Maybe I need a spell-checker.. :laugh:

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
Aside from a few spelling variations and nouns they are mostly identical. Which can make it fun when having conversations with those that aren't up on the differences.

Originally posted by MikeWilliams
Like "Fanny". :laugh:

Or the way you think "Randy" is a proper noun, rather than an adjective...

Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
Depends on capitalization.

We just think it is funny as all hell when you name someone "butt" :laugh:

Harvey, there's another difference at play here. (And BTW, Fanny was once a common American woman's name; remember Fanny Brice?)

Anyway, in case you weren't aware; while to an American a "fanny pack" is a small bag worn about the waist to carry items out of the way, to a Brit a "fanny pack" might be construed to be a wierd slang for a tampon...

If you get my drift. ;)

-----

Does spelling matter?

As one of those who sometimes corrects people's spelling and grammar in this forum, of course I think it matters. But I try to take other factors into considration, as well. For instance, I don't think I've corrected the spelling and grammar of anyone who seemed to be a non-native speaker of English.

Nor do I harp on the occasional typo. Constant misuse of punctuation, however, can lead me to respond; it's one of my pet peeves.

I agree with the thought that spelling and grammar are similar to kata; we should practice correct form to the best of our abilities, and seek to improve ourselves.

As to the comparison with correcting our sensei in class, I don't think that's a valid comparison; this is not a formal class, it's an informal conversation arena.

That's my 2 cents' worth on the subject, anyway.

[chrismoses]

A former co-worker moved to the US from Britain about six years ago. The first time he went to Wall-Mart they had a big display that said, "Fanny-Packs! Buy one get one free!"

He turned to his wife, "Honey, this country is great, not only do they come in packs but they're cheap!" :)

Needless to say he still lives in the US.

[Tim Atkinson]

Would not the more polite and gracious action be to PM the person and then let them edit their post. Who is served by correcting them publicly? What is gained?

I know that I appreciate the PM and would better remember the mistake in the future, due to small act of kindness rather than the error corrected.

Just my two cents worth.

Post checked by MS and Bill Gates, all errors and omissions are his responsibility (should this be standard to my signature block in the future?).

[Andrew S]

Some thoughts here (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=383746&highlight=tips#post383746)