learning in Japan

[seskoad]

I just had an argument with my friend in dojo. We argued about learning kenjutsu in japan ,in particularly Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. He said that if you want soke of the ryu teach you, then you must be a japanese. Well then I said that's impossible, the owner of www.koryu.com learn shinkage ryu and I guess learn it from soke himself if I am not mistaken. Then he replied "well, maybe it is not yagyu shinkage ryu Nara version, maybe osaka version". I was paused then thinking. Then I answered "I think it's Nara". He kept insist "impossible because japanese people is a bit discriminate about this, you may learn the ryu but in special class for foreigner only which not taught by soke". He's half japanese-indonesian and often go to japan every year so then I won't argue about it anymore.

About Nara or Osaka version does not concern me. What I really concern is about getting the teaching from the soke. How hard it would be if you are foreigner. I heard from my friend again that only can speak japanese itself is not enough to be excepted in the dojo (in Japan).

I am interested in Kogen Itto ryu and planning to go there in next 4-5 years time (if no obstacle in financial and other thing). But after I heard about discrimination, I am pretty doubt of going there to learn more about koryu.

Well, hope some of you can give input and tips about it.

thanks

[Chris deMonch]

I'm pretty sure Mr. Skoss of the Owari Yagyu trained directly under Yagyu Sensei for quite a long time. Manogue Sensei and Walter Sensei both trained under Sono Soke of the Yamato Yagyu Kai in Osaka. While I guess it could be the perogative of the headmaster of a school whether or not to train foreigners, I don't know of any personally, and Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (both the Edo branch and Owari branch) is certainly not among them.

[Shin Buke]

Mr. Hananto,

While I've heard that the Japanese are generally leery of foreigners (not to say that they aren't friendly to us), from all I know of the koryu, they are very accepting of foreign students. You are indeed correct that Mr. Skoss has trained under Yagyu Nobuharu, the soke of the Owari line of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. In fact, Yagyu-soke wrote the foreward to the second volume of Diane Skoss' Koryu Bujutsu series. In addition, I believe that Mr. Skoss, Mrs. Skoss, and Mr. Amdur have all trained under Nitta Suzuyo, the 19th headmaster of Toda-ha Buko-ryu. I also believe that Mr. Jensen studied under the headmaster of Maniwa Nen-ryu. I've read of many other folk who have trained under Japanese koryu sensei and, in fact, am in communication with a member of the Yagyu Shingan-ryu who has told me that his sensei is very pleased with the degree of foreign interest in the koryu bujutsu. None of these people have been segregated in a "foreigners only" class either. They are all members of their respective ryu and are all treated as such. All-in-all I've come to believe that the koryu are very accepting of foreign students as many of them have not only trained under various koryu sensei but have also achieved liscenses to teach from those sensei.

[renfield_kuroda]

To make broad, sweeping generalizations, Japanese are at least as racist as Americans.
I have lived here in Japan for over 10 years, and have faced my share of racism. I had one shihan who certainly did not enjoy teaching "the round eyes" as he called me behind my back. He, however, is no longer welcome in our dojo.
Niina-gosoke of Mugairyu Iaihyodo, Meishi-ha in Tokyo is open to teaching anyone who wants to learn, and many Japanese martial arts instructors feel the same way.
I have never heard of any citizenship requirements to learn martial arts, though to physically be here in Japan for any length of time will legally require a visa.

Regards,

r e n

[seskoad]

well, that's what thought. Thank you for the reply guys. Racism and discrimination happens everywhere. It happens in my country too where we have different clans and religions. I am experienced racism just because different clans and religion. And most likely, because my face looks like chinese and indonesian indegenous mostly racist to chinese-indonesian people. It also happens on the other way around.

I am glad to hear that most of soke also want to teach foreigner.

thank you

[Maro]

Ren,

Isn't it the case that a lot of younger Japanese are abandoning their culture with regards to MA? Any interest, Foreign or not is appreciated I would imagine?

[Shin Buke]

I certainly think that's part of it. From what I've heard, many of the Japanese have little or no idea of what the koryu bujutsu are. Koryu sensei are certainly happy that someone is taking interest in the koryu.

I would be careful against falling into the line of thinking that they are begrudgingly accepting foreign students in order for their art to survive. I'm not saying that's what was on your mind, but it's a logical next step for someone to take. I do honestly think that they are genuinely appreciative of the foreign interest in the koryu. I think their appreciation is deepend when they see how dedicated their foreign students are.

[hyaku]

If I could butt in......

Few people have time to do what they really want here. As it is they are expected to spend extremely long periods of time connected with work. If they are not at work its still some connection with it.

I have student who is a bit of a problem. His mother a personal friend is a teacher at nurses college. Typical case of spending so much time looking after other people kids and having no time for their own. The actual balance here between work, home, leisure is strange to say the least, falling in that order.

Apart from that they are well brainwashed into pretending to be Western. There never has been much interest here in MA for years. around 20 years ago it was less than 2%.

The Japanese government and cultural office do little to actually promote Budo. If the government showed an interest maybe the people would to. Its more or less a crime to actually take time off to promote it

Kendo and Judo is a means to an end. A good student that is perhaps not too good at other things can find a career in it by becoming a Phys Ed teacher or police/prison service.

As to practicing with Soke....

Generaly our Soke will go to teach the beginners and we get on with it up the other end. If you are a beginner regardless of race. you get Soke. Its a very long if not a lifelong proposition to practice. My main concern would be "Dont waste his time".

The international scene here seems to fall into two groups. Teachers who want to knock up some international score card and get their name in a mag. You can add to that a tremendous amount of I want to be important people too.

Then there are those that genuinely feel for foreigners interest in Budo as fellow as human beings.

Last Seminar we did Soke mentioned that he felt that Musashi's spirit was in the dojo looking over us and showing through in the students. Taylor Sensei Canada Shibucho said that was because Soke has brought Musashi with him!

Hopefully Musashi travels with us to France in a few weeks time if he can get a visa.

Europa no minnasan. Yoroshiku

[seskoad]

I really want to start now but hey...we only live once. As Indonesian and average pass mark in Uni, I don't think I can find a job in Japan. So I got another plan... do the Palm oil business back in my country, make money if I can. And hopefully by the time I have enough money, I won't be too busy and old to learn.

I am 26 this month and have not finished uni until this november. I need to learn how to earn money. I hope next 4-5 years from now I can start and not too late for learn.

[renfield_kuroda]

How many Europeans know anything about traditional Western fighting arts? How many US citizens even have a basic grasp of US History?
I don't think it's fair to blame Japanese youth for abandoning their culture. First of all, culture is changing; McDonalds and soccer are now as much a part of Japan as kenjutsu was 400 years ago.
Then again, as mentioned before, the Japanese gov't doesn't actually do that much to promote koryu/budo. This has been policy ever since Meiji, when the gov't decided old=bad, new/Western=good. So it's no surprise that every school has a soccer and baseball team, but some don't even have judo or kendo.

Regards,

r e n

[Maro]

Not apportioning blame, just observing.

We have an office in Kobe and have members of the Japanese Affiliate here on year long sabaticals.

[Maro]

Edit:

I am knowledgeable in Western MA - I shoot English Longbow and have some experience with English Staff.

[spliffmaniac]

Originally posted by hyaku
Generaly our Soke will go to teach the beginners and we get on with it up the other end. If you are a beginner regardless of race. you get Soke. Its a very long if not a lifelong proposition to practice. My main concern would be "Dont waste his time".

I think this says it all. If you seriously approach and make time for a Japanese 'do' then the teacher returns the compliment regardless of your race.

Sure, you will encounter the most gob-smaking ignorance from time to time - my personal favorite was being asked if I had evolved as much as a Japanese person given my body hair - but IMO never from a teacher you have show commitement to.