how do you feel after seeing Dan gradings?

[Rogier]

Well... last night I went to Dan exams as one of my students had his 1st dan exam. He and his partner needed a third man for the 2 against 1 fight, as I was going anyway it was an easy choice that I was the third man.

I frequently attend Dan exams just to see if things are changing and what the current standards are.

The problem is that everytime I come back feeling quite angry and disgusted. The skills of people passing the exams is horrible to say the least. Last night especially.

There were six exams (including my own student) now without tooting my own horn, I must really say that there was only one decent exam. Him and his partner started training for the exam about a year ago and have really worked hard on it.

I found very distressing to see that two 3rd dan exams (who passed) were showing techniques which were improbable, poorly executed... let's just say impossible. When on a 3rd dan exams your partner jumps along with throws to make the throw possible...

:mad: :mad:

If two people with their 1st kyu show a better exam than the two people with 2nd Dan... should the 2nd dan people pass???

I've decided not to go to gradings anymore unless I have an exam myself or my students have an exam.... :(

Do any of you see these things happening in your organization?

[Amphinon]

Not really. On occasion, we have one come up, but for the most part, the testers are really talented. I believe most of it is martial arts maturity.

[Moenstah]

Up until now, I've never attended a jujutsu dan examination. But what I've seen of some of the 1st kyu exams, well... your story doesn't come as a big surprise.

For example: I once saw this guy passing his exam, whilst doing ALL his techniques only righthanded or to the right side. It was so obvious that I started looking/waiting for the time when he'd do something on his left side. But no, not even a single atemi-technique!

As far as for the examination committees: I learned that an expercienced judoka (1st dan) whom I know, got a 6 for his nage waza. Needless to say that he was irate.

There's another point, which pissed me off. You can pass partially, and the whole exam only lasts for a mere 30 minutes. If you tell it to a couple of goju ryu karateka, they will wet their pants laughing.

[MikeWilliams]

Originally posted by Rogier
Do any of you see these things happening in your organization?

Yes.

This is yet another reason why I like BJJ. No gradings, you are promoted only when you can demonstrably outperform your peers. It makes the ranks much more honest.

[Bushi Jon]

We have to remember that not all people will be able to perform at the same level as everyone else. I was once told that you grade each and every person and not just there tech. A twenty year old student is likely to be more limber compared to a 50 year old does that mean the 50 should not advance? I have always graded the person effort eqaully with there knowledge

[Moenstah]

I thought that dan gradings were being examined by committee, instead of individual sensei, in order to assure a certain mesure of quality and standard.

I agree that not everyone has the same skill or physique, but that's something completely different from having people passing their exams while their technical skill is crap. :mad:

[Garbach]

Originally posted by Moenstah
Up until now, I've never attended a jujutsu dan examination. But what I've seen of some of the 1st kyu exams, well... your story doesn't come as a big surprise.

....

There's another point, which pissed me off. You can pass partially, and the whole exam only lasts for a mere 30 minutes. If you tell it to a couple of goju ryu karateka, they will wet their pants laughing.

Hello Moenstah,

Most organisations have different criteria for their exams. But hey, you been on both sides. JBN (national Dutch judo federation) and IOGKF have a, well..... different, attitude towards exams. (30 minutes vs 4 hours) Part of the 'problem' is that many examinators have the tendency to over-quantify the criteria. While on the same time not wanting to apply those criteria, by making excuses for the student. This only hurts the budo, the organisation AND the student. Be honest and get it over with.

I haven't taken an exam for the JBN in over ... well.... a lot of years (you know why ;-)). But I do have the habbit of showing up. Basically, just out off interest, but also because every time I visit exams I learn something. Sometimes I'm impressed, sometimes I can't hold back my tears (tears of laughter or sadness).

Your comment on passing an exams partially in this case is a good point. Take an exam and you either pass or you fail. No in betweens! Partially passing an exam is also a symptom of what I said above. Not being able to tell a student, his/her efforts simply aren't enough.

Did enjoy your stay in Belgium? Hope to see you back in our dojo, soon! We've got a 'little present' for you.

[Shitoryu Dude]

I've seen many people wearing a black belt that were totally unqualified for it. Irritating, but what can you do?

:beer:

[CEB]

Maybe abolish the Dan-i rank system.

If your respective organizations are the bad maybe folks should resign from the politics.

There are only two real ranks.
1) Teacher
2) Student

[Bambi]

Its funny, I was cleaning out old boxes this weekend and found pics of my dan grade, I sucked lol. Usual politics, instructor wanted another black belt and gave me zero notice of a grading involving 20 rounds of sparring, nice one. I could have gone out and sucked even more than i did and still made the grade.

We should form a support group for victims and the dan/i grading system. :D

But seriously Rogier, why care about the gradings? And if your association are the bunch of political whoremongers your post suggests why not dump 'em?? I tend to believe that most large MA organisations are evil personified and try to have zero to do with em.

[Moenstah]

Well, though organisations suck, they also have a lot of resources or power at their disposal. So you cannot always avoid them. :-(

And they do offer at least the idea of a certain protection against 'unrecognised = unqualified' instructors.

[Garbach]

Originally posted by Moenstah
Well, though organisations suck, they also have a lot of resources or power at their disposal. So you cannot always avoid them. :-(


What makes them strong also makes them weak. Large organisations (no matter what their goal) are full of conflict, politics and power struggles. Unfortunately, for the most part dan-gradings are a just another level of politics. The vision of one, or a group of, sensei with regards to what a dan should be, is reflected trough the policy of the organisation. And therefore is subject to discussion, esspecially in an organisation which is led ´democratically´. Democracy and budo do not go together!

In the end, a dan-grade is only worth the time and effort an individual has invested in it, and keeps investing!

Originally posted by Moenstah
And they do offer at least the idea of a certain protection against 'unrecognised = unqualified' instructors. [/B]

Yet there are a lot of bogus teachers outthere starting their own ´legitimate´ organisations to appear thrustworthy. So even in that respect one has to be carefull.

Sidenote: I have heard an honest en legitimate teacher proclaim the most absurd BS .... off course without realizing it.
So even legitimacy isn´t an insurrance against mistakes.

[Bambi]

Originally posted by Moenstah
Well, though organisations suck, they also have a lot of resources or power at their disposal. So you cannot always avoid them. :-(

And they do offer at least the idea of a certain protection against 'unrecognised = unqualified' instructors.

I'd say large organisations are one of the major causes of crappy unqualified instructors. As for "recognised" , I run a mile when I hear that word. Its usually a precusor to "soke" or "former world champiiooon" :D

[CEB]

In the old days in China if someone wanted to teach boxing they would go to a town and build a leitai (raised platform). They would announce that they were available to teach boxing. All comers were welcome to knock the prospective teacher off the platform. If nobody could knock the would be teacher off the leitai he would teach. If somebody knocked their !!! on the ground then, no one wanted to learn from him. When teacher got old and established he had students that could fight for him. The measure of a teacher's legitimacy was his ability or the the ability of his students. This was a true measure of legitimacy.

How many budoka really want to go back to a true means of measuring legitimacy?

The obi will only cover, at most, about 2 inches of your !!!.

Happy Halloween.

[Shitoryu Dude]

Sounds like a legitimate method of determining competency.

:beer:

[CEB]

Before lineage, legitimacy was competency. Is Budo now just an anachronism? Maybe is Budo a self help method of personal development? Maybe competency is moot? Maybe no body should ever fail a grading. That could harm somebody's self esteem.

[Shitoryu Dude]

I'm sure that business considerations are more to blame than anything else. Want to keep around that well-paying but not so good woman in her 50's that has been training for the last 7 years? Better make sure she gets her black belt. Ditto with the kids who have parents that shell out the bucks.

If your livelyhood depends on maintaining a minimum quota of students, compromises can start to creep in. Of course, the less competent the teacher, the worse it gets.

:beer:

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by CEB
In the old days in China if someone wanted to teach boxing they would go to a town and build a leitai (raised platform). They would announce that they were available to teach boxing. All comers were welcome to knock the prospective teacher off the platform....

Happy Halloween.

In the old days in China, if someone came into town doing that, the towns people would call the magistrate who would then send in the constables to grab your boxer and clap him in jail, after a good beating for disorderly conduct. :D

But seriously, aren't you guys just holding too high a standard for dan ranks which they were not designed to do? These are just academic degrees, and not proof that a graduate is now a superhero. In any school in any profession, you would have lots of soso students and a few standouts. Most still graduate, and once they get their fancy degrees they start over... at the BOTTOM of their profession until practical skills are polished ... chefs come to mind.

In MA, nobody ever gets a chance to go beyond a lab/academic setting except those going into full time cage fighting or hunting at ToraBora!! But still, so long as people meet the basic requirements they deserve their dan rank, and its ok so long as they also don't think they've become superheros.

Its not fair for you strong young guys to compare yourself to that slow woman in her 50s, because..... you have nowhere near her good judgment as the following story illustrates:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/26/nyregion/26cigarette.html

Kali student stabs a bouncer choking his friend. Ends up killing the bouncer and on trial for murder.

M

[Bambi]

Originally posted by Margaret Lo


But seriously, aren't you guys just holding too high a standard for dan ranks which they were not designed to do? These are just academic degrees, and not proof that a graduate is now a superhero. In any school in any profession, you would have lots of soso students and a few standouts. Most still graduate, and once they get their fancy degrees they start over... at the BOTTOM of their profession until practical skills are polished ... chefs come to mind.

In MA, nobody ever gets a chance to go beyond a lab/academic setting except those going into full time cage fighting or hunting at ToraBora!! But still, so long as people meet the basic requirements they deserve their dan rank, and its ok so long as they also don't think they've become superheros.

Its not fair for you strong young guys to compare yourself to that slow woman in her 50s, because.
M



Hey im not young!! i'm 31 tomorrow :(


Point is, if someone can't carry out their lab practicals without blowing stuff up will they get their degree?? Nope. Won't have a tutor going "hey he doesnt actually know anything about lab work but he's been here for years and really helps me out so he deserves to graduate and go on to be a menace to all who share a lab with him, cos right now we need more lab technicians out there in our organsation"

A black belt SHOULD be an ability to perform to a certain level of competence. If thats in an art that claims to teach people how to "fight" then yes, you should be able to "fight". To turn the question around how fair is it for said woman to claim shes at the same level of abilty as those bright young things? Which is why the whole dan/kyu thing is meaningless to me, Its not a meaningful indicator of teaching or coaching ability OR of the ability to perform

[CEB]

You are young. You are very young.

[CEB]

Just what is the minimum level of competency for Shodan? ,Nidan?, ….GoDan?

[Bambi]

Thats the question innit?? just what is it a test of? the Ability to teach? Ability to perform to the level of other people at that rank? Or even to perform against other people of that level?? :up:

I dunno, which is why I avoid tactical pant retention technology in Martial Arts like the plague

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by CEB
Just what is the minimum level of competency for Shodan? ,Nidan?, ….GoDan?

Well each style usually sets its own standards for dan ranks. For JKA Shotokan, you're tested purely on your command of physical technique. Test will be in certain basics, sparring and forms necessary for each grade. Examiners consider conformity with the ideal in terms of form, flow from one technique to another, then strength and speed are also evaluated. Testing concentrates on physical skill up to 5th dan, thereafter it becomes more "political". Teaching skill is tested by written examination and by your students' success.

Within our style, they'll set a fairly low standard for 1st dan but "run the weeder" at 2nd dan. I've seen one 2nd dan exam where 24 people tested and 2 passed.

Sometimes people will fail to live up to the ideal but still pass. One brown belt with a congenital problem w/ one hip was passed because he trained w/ a lot of pain and effort and otherwise understood technique quite well. He got his black but he won't test for 2nd dan.

M

[Shitoryu Dude]

I get upset when I see a "black belt" that is unable to perform their art with any skill level beyond that of a very good beginner. They may have the steps down (sort of), but can't put any sort of power, grace, or effectiveness into it.

I don't think I'm being a snob over the matter, I don't think they have learned 3/4 of the physical part of it. I am more than willing to make allowances for physical hardships (lord knows I have a few of them myself), but I do give it my all for what I can do.

:beer:

[Ric Flinn]

I think the problem with a lot of arts is, people are not expected to fail a grading. If they're grading at all, everyone expects to them to pass. I've talked to people from other styles, and they've confirmed this; failures in a grading mean something went very, very wrong. I know I've seen some pretty crappy technique pass a grading.

I'm pretty happy with the iaido gradings I've been to. First it takes a panel of a certain number of godan (minimum) judges, and the gradings are fairly rare. And they'll fail you at the drop of a hat. I've seen many, many failed iai gradings.

[Gene Williams]

I won't test a student until I think they can pass, but I have failed some...even for dan ranks. I always ask other senior dan to sit on the board. A test should be comprehensive and hard. Lots of sweat, some bruises, even blood at times. But, hey, it is a martial art. Kata (at dan level) should be really, really crisp and look like it is a part of the person doing it. I like to see several really proficient applications from each kata. My tests usually run three to four hours for dan ranks, sometimes longer. Some of it is just an endurance test, but that is part of it, too. If you are out of shape, you can't fight.

[Gimbo]

I guess it helps if the club doesn;t make any money. Everyone except shihan does karate in their spare time, if someone isn't good enouph they just sit there at whatever belt level until they leave.
They will fail you if your not good enouph. I'm pretty good and I got a bad grade. There are gradings for older folks though and physical and mental limitations are considered for normal gradings. I have not seen anyone pass who I think didn't deserve it yet.

[Gene Williams]

Originally posted by Gimbo
I guess it helps if the club doesn;t make any money. Everyone except shihan does karate in their spare time, if someone isn't good enouph they just sit there at whatever belt level until they leave.
They will fail you if your not good enouph. I'm pretty good and I got a bad grade. There are gradings for older folks though and physical and mental limitations are considered for normal gradings. I have not seen anyone pass who I think didn't deserve it yet.

Hey John. Where do you train? Gene

[Gimbo]

This is in ontario, canada.

[Gene Williams]

There used to be some good Itosu Kai in New Castle, Pa. I trained with those guys when I used to visit my in-laws there. They moved, so I haven't been in a few years. Bill Stoner was the Sensei. Good man.

[Howard Thiery]

In the styles I have trained in over my brief forty years (Aikido; Shotokan: not in that order) students did not test until they were deemed ready by their instructor. This meant there was zero doubt in the instructors mind that the student had mastered the material (knowledge, skills, maturity) I.e.-mastery had been demonstrated many, many times in practice. Therefore if the instructor did his job the student passed what was always a very rigorous exam that served as an exam as well as a right of passage the student could be proud of and others could aspire toward. In the small number of instances where the student failed something had gone seriously wrong either with the instructors judgement or the students performance that day. In my experience it was more often the first.

just my two cents,

cheers,
H