Iai styles

[Tiger Ed]

Just woundered how many styles you study, I do two a form of Iai-jitsu and SGata, was going to go to learn MJER too when I become proficient enough in these. ( Gonna stop Iai-jitsu when I reach black as its not really our style, we just learn it for a change but I do want to get proficient.)

How many do you know, or train in as I think cross training is important for knowledge. Anyone agree

[Charles Mahan]

MJER eats up 10 to 12 hours in the average week, and 4 or 5 times a year an entire weekend. I don't have time for anything else. I've always admired people who can do more than one art well.

[K. Brown]

I am currently studying Seitei Jo and Iai, as well as Muso Shinden ryu Iaido, and a form of koryu bujutsu.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Tiger Ed
...was going to go to learn MJER too when I become proficient enough in these.
That begs the question, of course, of how proficient is "proficient enough"?

Some would maintain that a lifetime isn't enough to learn just one art to perfection, so why study more than one.

I have studied more than one, but not at the same time. It was a matter of what was available in my then current time and place.

While it is fairly common to study Seitei Iai concurrent with Kendo or a koryu Iai, I think it would be unwise to study more than one koryu concurrently until one was quite advanced in the first -- and had his sensei's blessing; a not unimportant point, I might add.

[chrismoses]

I only really study one sword style. I do also study Aikido and a sort of aiki/ju-jutsu/do. At my Aikido dojo we do some 'weapons' work, mainly Saotome's kumitachi and Shingu/Tom Reed style bojutsu. While I teach some of the kumitachi, I really wouldn't consider myself a student of it. I use the mechanical principles of Shinto Ryu to basically do the pattern of the kumitachi. I hope I don't seem arrogant in saying that realistically this is all that most people can really hope for when splitting styles. Either one style will be your base, (if I was to do Seitei for example, it would probably look like someone from shinto ryu 'doing' the seitei) or 'your' style will be a combination of all of the styles you practice. Some rare individuals are able to keep it all separate. Most cannot, and the stylistic clarity suffers for it. When I teach Saotome's kumitachi for example, I try to make it clear that many of the specifics of my movements would probably not be approved of by Saotome Sensei. I know for a fact that Patty Saotome doesn't like it, she's yelled at me more than once for the way I do the kumitachi. I'm ok with that though, because I'm indebted to Shinto Ryu for my understanding of the sword, so that's where my loyalties lie.


One could say that if you found styles that were similar enough this would be easier. I actually find this harder. It's easier for me to go back and forth between kata that are completely differnet (like some of the TSYR kumitachi vs. Shinto-ryu) where you don't even use a sword of the same dimensions then go back and forth between some of the Shinto Ryu kata and some of the MJER kata that are most likely related. One you must make gross compensation, one micro, but both require one to change. Your swordwork should move towards the subconscious and this is very hard when going back and forth.

That said, some people can do it. More power to 'em.

[Bill Gallant]

When you get down to the nuts and bolts of it though....They're all the same!!

[chrismoses]

Originally posted by Bill Gallant
When you get down to the nuts and bolts of it though....They're all the same!!

I'll just have to disagree. A sword style that uses a grip that's only three fingers apart, is going to have VERY different 'nuts-n-bolts' to one using a grip that's a forearm's length apart. Some styles use leverage and deflection, others speed and reach. Some are quite similar, others are very, very differnent.

[Charles Mahan]

I'd have to agree. It's really at the nuts and bolts level that the real differences are to be found.

[CEB]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
That begs the question, of course, of how proficient is "proficient enough"?

...
I suppose when you get proficient enough that you can survive all the sword fights that you are going to find yourself involved in then you will have become proficient enough.

[ulvulv]

Originally posted by CEB
I suppose when you get proficient enough that you can survive all the sword fights that you are going to find yourself involved in then you will have become proficient enough.

So when you are proficient enough to survive all the swordfights you are going to find yourself involved in, you can go on to another style of iai? What for? Why not respond to brians post within the context it was given, instead of as a isolated statement?

My teacher adressed this action of "swapping styles" at a large seminar this summer. Why change styles, when you change to a style that has no more to offer than your original style? he said there was one situation where a change of styles was reccommended, that was if there was no available teaching in your "original" style in your area. Then the change was possible, with a written permission. This is no universal standard, but I like the air of commitment and formality in this. Practising sword arts is not joining a dart or football team, it should be a serious and lasting commitment with a reciprocal quality, where your teacher generously offers his time, knowledge(and patience), and you do your best to live up to his/hers expectations. Commitment and perseverance is rewarded with access to the system. Iai-land hopping will probably give you just a shallow experience of what a ryu has to offer, you cant expect a teacher to fully trust you and be overly enthusiastic of your presence in the dojo, when he/she knows that its your third/fourth "dojo-swap."

[CEB]

Originally posted by ulvulv
So when you are proficient enough to survive all the swordfights you are going to find yourself involved in, ....
...
Then you are simply proficent enough.....

that's all.

FWIW I have been with under the guidance of the same teacher for going on 3 decades.


Old Fart.

[Tony Peters]

There was a time that I filled my plate with multiple arts...I did Aikido 3-4 days a week, 2 days of Iaido (Eishin Ryu) and a day of SMR Jodo...the end result of this was that my Aikido sucked, I hurt someone, and I had too many bad habits in Iai and Jo. I dropped Aikido and noticed an immediate improvement in the other two arts... still that was difficult as they were very different at the core and eventually the Eishin Ryu was dropped. Now I'm in Japan and have resisted the urge to make the same mistakes instead I found a nice neighborhood dojo and and returned to Eishin ryu...and still the bad habits florish however for somereason I am better able to se them...stick to one art and don't hop unless you have no choice

[Charles Mahan]

If you don't mind me asking, what flavor of Eishin Ryu are you studying in Japan and with whom?

[hyaku]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
That begs the question, of course, of how proficient is "proficient enough"?

Nakayama Hakudo had done temple practices with draws that amounted to 10,000 times over 24 hours. Others were recorded at thirty to forty thousand.

Musashi says in the water scroll a thousand days of training to develop. Ten thousand to polish.

Based on that we need a fair amount of practice to be proficient. A lot may never reach proficiency.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by hyaku
Based on that we need a fair amount of practice to be proficient. A lot may never reach proficiency.
My sentiments exactly.

I agree with what I think is the general consensus here; stick to one JSA unless circumstances beyond your control dictate otherwise.

Or, as the saying goes, jack-of-all-trades = master-of-none.

[seskoad]

Originally posted by Tony Peters
...stick to one art and don't hop unless you have no choice

But not for all people. if not mistaken, the soke of mugai ryu also practice karate. Obata sensei can learn aikido and kenjutsu (well, maybe not the same time) and also mastered them. I think as long as the arts are different between each other then it is oke. You can't mix sword art with other sword art, karate "Y" with karate "X", etc.

[primeape]

Originally posted by hyaku
Nakayama Hakudo had done temple practices with draws that amounted to 10,000 times over 24 hours. Others were recorded at thirty to forty thousand.

Musashi says in the water scroll a thousand days of training to develop. Ten thousand to polish.

Based on that we need a fair amount of practice to be proficient. A lot may never reach proficiency.

Thanks for the quote, Hyaku-san, that spared me some digging. For perspective, it may be helpful to point out that 24 hours equals
86 400 seconds, meaning Hakudo-sensei had about 8 seconds for each draw and return, going on for 24 hours straight.......

A finnish proverb, actually part of an old song, states that men used to be made of iron, when ships were made out of wood. Seems to me the same could be stated about Hakudo-sensei, even if he did not use a bokuto but a steel sword :D

just my two sen worth

Primeape,
Helsinki
Vesa Varhee
some, but not enough, MSR iai &
diverse other interests in Japan and japanese culture

[Tony Peters]

Originally posted by Charles Mahan
If you don't mind me asking, what flavor of Eishin Ryu are you studying in Japan and with whom?

Not real certain exactly what flavor, there are significant differences from the MJER that I started with (well that I remember anyway)...I can likely answer better in a few more weeks...the other american/military students will be returning...I'm training at the Kamakura City Dojo, a beautiful place

As for mixing arts my experience was related to ma-ai and the diffences between the arts I was studying....it came down to the fact that I couldn't keep the differences in distancing seperate...

[Ric Flinn]

Originally posted by Tiger Ed
( Gonna stop Iai-jitsu when I reach black as its not really our style, we just learn it for a change but I do want to get proficient.)


If you're just going to quit, why are you training in it at all? When you reach "black?" I'll assume you mean a "black belt" rank, which means you're just out to collect a rank in this style. If I was your instructor and I knew this, I assure you, you'd never reach "black."

Either that or at the start of the next class, I'd throw you a black belt and tell you to get the hell out.

[nicojo]

Primeape: A finnish proverb, actually part of an old song, states that men used to be made of iron, when ships were made out of wood. Cool proverb. Drinking song? Come over to America and hoist a mug with us. YAR! when men were men and women were women/ men of iron and women of um...Ships of wood and yar yar yar or something like that.

[Tiger Ed]

If you're just going to quit, why are you training in it at all? When you reach "black?" I'll assume you mean a "black belt" rank, which means you're just out to collect a rank in this style. If I was your instructor and I knew this, I assure you, you'd never reach "black."

Either that or at the start of the next class, I'd throw you a black belt and tell you to get the hell out.

i is not that but simply that at that leel I have the baics of the system, and due to the difficulty of studying and grading in the art, due to travel I will have to stop but would like to have the basics in the art so I will be able to practice and perform the art myself, instead of only knowing a few bits from it. It is a matter of time and the style my school trains in not a matter of the 'fashionable' level of belt colour at all but simply that I enoy the style and wish to learn the basics so I can pratice them myself when I wish. If I could attain higher rank I would but between University, Work, Iai, Hung Gar and having a social life with my lady I cannot attend the classes for much longer but would feel I have quit if I did not learn all the basics of the style and Ranchi agrees with me as he can see where I coming from, he also wishes me to return when I have more time upon my hands and space to further his style.

[jest]

Originally posted by primeape
A finnish proverb, actually part of an old song, states that men used to be made of iron, when ships were made out of wood. Seems to me the same could be stated about Hakudo-sensei, even if he did not use a bokuto but a steel sword :D

It's funny, we say that here too: "toen de schepen nog van hout waren, en de mannen van staal", when the ships were still made of wood and the men of steel.
An old friend of my father, from his days at navigation school, told me once (if I recall correctly) that it was a quote from an Ottoman emperor.
I'm more inclined to think it's from an old Finnish song actually. Perhaps a case of proverbial parallel evolution?

In any case, I also say "when rabbits still had license plates" and "when women carried their breasts on their backs" about those good old days ;).

[Tony Peters]

Originally posted by Ric Flinn
If you're just going to quit, why are you training in it at all? When you reach "black?" I'll assume you mean a "black belt" rank, which means you're just out to collect a rank in this style. If I was your instructor and I knew this, I assure you, you'd never reach "black."

Either that or at the start of the next class, I'd throw you a black belt and tell you to get the hell out.

This is part of the reason I haven't chased ranking in any art in the last 5-6 years, after my Shodan in Aikido I have trained for the love of training, and nothing else...and my OBI is blue with white trim...it's the only one I can find right now:D :D

[Etch]

Originally posted by Tony Peters
There was a time that I filled my plate with multiple arts...I did Aikido 3-4 days a week, 2 days of Iaido (Eishin Ryu) and a day of SMR Jodo...the end result of this was that my Aikido sucked, I hurt someone, and I had too many bad habits in Iai and Jo. I dropped Aikido and noticed an immediate improvement in the other two arts... still that was difficult as they were very different at the core and eventually the Eishin Ryu was dropped. Now I'm in Japan and have resisted the urge to make the same mistakes instead I found a nice neighborhood dojo and and returned to Eishin ryu...and still the bad habits florish however for somereason I am better able to se them...stick to one art and don't hop unless you have no choice

Hi Tony,

I'm sorry to hear that you hurt someone during Aikido practice. I have been injured by others before, and I have unintentionally injured a partner once, and it's not a good feeling. However, I'm not sure that it is necessary to stick to one style of Budo only out of a fear of never progressing. There are many budoka who are sensei in multiple arts, and a couple who are shihan in both a JSA (most especially iaido) and Aikido. You can find some of them here:

http://www.aiki.co.yu/sensei_e.htm#A

However, it has been said many times before, by people who have much more experience than me, that it is very difficult to begin two different arts at the same time and make significant headway in either in a reasonable time period. The general consensus seems to be that it is preferable to have dan ranking in one art before taking up another. Although it is also worth noting that there have been plenty of sensei who think that the principles of swordsmanship are essential to good aikido.

http://www.aikiweb.com/interviews/pranin0800.html

Personally, even though I've always been interested in the sword arts, I'm still considering whether or not I've progressed enough in Aikido to not have my progress hindered in either art by beginning the study of a JSA. I suppose my compelling desire for beginning sooner rather than later is that it can't be known with any certainty whether or not it is time to begin, but it can be known with certainty that it is too late when you have found you waited too long and never began.

Best Regards,
Bernard "Etch" Echiverri