Japan's sins of the past

[Kimpatsu]

From today's Guardian: (www.guardian.co.uk)

The memories of Japanese biological attacks on China in the 1940s are still fresh. Many Chinese want an apology, writes Justin McCurry
Justin McCurry in Tokyo
Thursday October 28, 2004
More than 60 years on, Fang Shiwei recalls the day his family was torn apart with such clarity it could have happened yesterday.
The 77-year-old accountant was a 12-year-old schoolboy in October 1940 when people in his hometown in Zhejiang province, south-east China, began to fall ill.

They suffered painful deaths, their bodies weakened, then blackened, by a mysterious illness.

Panic swept through the area as groups of local sanitation officials frantically disposed of infected corpses and declared war on the local rat population.

The villagers soon realised, however, that this was not a freak outbreak but a deliberate attempt to wipe out civilian populations with what was then the world's biggest and most sophisticated biological weapons programme.

Its architect was the occupying Japanese army. On the morning of October 4, 1940, Japanese planes flew over the city of Quzhou and released parcels of rice and wheat, designed to explode in mid-air so that their third ingredient - plague infected fleas - would fall to earth intact.

"We were all extremely afraid," Mr Fang said in an interview this week with Guardian Unlimited. After hearing of the rising death toll in the neighbourhood, Mr Fang's family - his mother, father, elder brother and nanny - fled to another village 15km away.

By 1942, the plague and other killer diseases had spread to several locations along the Zhejiang-Jiangxi railway. The Japanese showered seven pathogens on the province in what is thought to have been retaliation for the "Doolittle" air raids on Tokyo by US bombers.

In addition to the plague, the area was infected with typhoid, typhus, dysentery, cholera, para-typhus and anthrax.

Biological warfare finally caught up with Mr Fang and his family. His symptoms began with a tiny blister. "It was yellow, not red like blisters usually are," he said. "Then it broke, releasing a yellow pus which spread and caused my leg to rot.

"By September we were all suffering from rotting leg disease," he said, hitching up his right trouser leg to reveal the scars. "We also had ulcers all over our bodies." They had been infected with anthrax.

Mr Fang recovered, and today shows no obvious signs of his ailment. He shed tears as he described the night that his mother, gravely ill with typhoid, begged him for some water. By the time he had lit a fire and boiled a cupful of water, she was dead. He had to borrow wood from an old man in the village to make her a coffin.

According to local documents, supported by studies conducted by Japanese researchers, between 1940 and 1948 more than 300,000 Chinese civilians in the region were infected with the plague and other diseases. An estimated 50,000 died in the Quzhou area alone.

The reign of terror was the work of the notorious Unit 731, a secret arm of the Japanese army based near Harbin, north-east China, which since 1935 had combined expertise and unspeakable cruelty to develop biological weapons to help pave the Japanese army's way into strategically important areas of south-east China.

Between 1939 and 1945, the unit is thought to have killed, maimed or poisoned more than a million mainly Chinese, Russian and Korean civilians by contaminating their water supply and showering towns and villages with pathogens such as the bubonic plague.

Known officially as the epidemic prevention and water supply bureau, Unit 731 employed hundreds of doctors and scientists to conduct experiments on prisoners of war and civilians.

Described by their captors as "logs," the victims were deliberately infected with disease and then dissected while still alive so that doctors could check the infections' progress.

Between 1936 and 1945, the unit killed an estimated 14,000 people, including several allied prisoners of war.

Yet its work was to remain secret for years. The unit's activities were referred to just once at the Tokyo war crimes trials. Rather than prosecute the unit's senior members, the US occupation authorities in Japan granted them immunity in exchange for access to years of extensive research into biological weapons.

The perpetrators returned to Japan to lead respectable lives, occupying top positions in the pharmaceutical industry and the health ministry. Dr Masaji Kitano, who succeeded the unit's notorious founder, Shiro Ishii, as its leader, went on to head what was once Japan's biggest pharmaceutical firm, Green Cross, which infected 1,800 Japanese haemophiliacs with HIV through unheated blood products in the 1980s.

The authorities in Japan have only just begun to acknowledge the unit's existence and the nature of its work, thanks to the testimony of former members such as Yoshio Shinozuka.

Shinozuka, who was recruited by the unit when he was 16, testified in 1997 that he had helped breed the fleas that were dropped on Quzhou. He was later responsible for scrubbing down the barely living, blackened bodies of plague victims before they were dissected, without anaesthetic. He testified on behalf of 180 Chinese survivors of the plague attacks and relatives of those who had died after they launched a suit against the Japanese government in 1995. They demanded that Tokyo admit it had used biological weapons, apologise and pay each of them 10m yen in compensation.

In its ruling in August 2002, the Tokyo district court acknowledged that Unit 731's activities had caused "immense" suffering and were "clearly inhumane." But the admission was a pyrrhic victory for the plaintiffs: the court turned down their other demands, saying that all compensation issues had been settled when Japan and China normalised diplomatic ties in 1972.

Today, representatives of the plaintiffs started giving evidence for the last time in their appeal at the Tokyo high court. A ruling is expected within months, but few expect it to go the plaintiffs' way.

Their leader, Wang Xuan, whose uncle died from disease spread by Unit 731, says the plaintiffs will take their case to the Japanese supreme court and, if necessary, the United Nations, if their appeal fails.

Mr Fang, who is not among the plaintiffs (he learned about the suit in a newspaper article in 1995), said that a favourable ruling would not only help heal the personal wounds inflicted 60 years ago, but would also go some way towards addressing the historical animosity that continues to blight Japan-China relations.

His argument, he says, is with Japan's government, not its people. "They destroyed my family, took away my elder brother and very nearly killed me," he said, recalling his capture, then release, by Japanese troops in the dying days of the second world war.

"This was all in the past - it's over. But they should show repentance and demonstrate an honest understanding of their history. Many of the other victims have died, that's why it is so important for me to tell my story."

Ms Wang, who lives in Japan, said: "We don't want this to drag on. It doesn't make us happy to have to keep pointing the finger at other people and telling them that they're wrong. All we want is to make peace and see justice done. But it is a painful process."
Fang Shiwei recalls his family's suffering after the Japanese tested biological weapons on the Chinese in the 1940s.

[Michael Bland]

Thanks for posting this, Tony.

I'll be happier when I see stories like this in Japanese textbooks instead of the crap about how Japan was helping to liberate Asia from the capitalist Westerners...blah blah blah.

[Kimpatsu]

Michael, thank you for the appreciation. It makes my minority status as a disliked member of this forum all worthwhile. There are Japanese who refuse to take responsibility for what happened, and then there are excessively pro-Japanese Westerners who deny such things ever happened, or who claim that they are a "footnote of history". As you obviously know, such rewriting is complete nonsense. Being truly pro-Japanese does not mean sweeping previous atrocities under the carpet; it means owning up to and taking responsibility for those atrocities.
I'll keep posting so long as people keep reading (I admit, I'm bolshey enough to be part of the "publish and be damned" brigade); I just hope there are enough people like yourself reading.
Best,

[Michael Bland]

thank you for the appreciation. It makes my minority status as a disliked member of this forum all worthwhile.

That sounds like sarcasm, but I know you would never be sarcastic, Tony. *smile*

Actually, I generally like your posts - except for those posts wherein you might errantly disagree with me. *wink*

Back on topic - more people need to be aware of the atrocities committed by the Japanese in WWII as they were grossly underplayed compared with their German counterparts. This becomes even more heinous since the Japanese government still teaches their own children that they were working for the benefit of Asia.

I have yet to meet another Asian person who agreed with that.

Even more so, I was continually appalled in Japan whenever I spoke to a Japanese person who would tell me they "hated Koreans" or "hated Chinese people" because of the "horrible things they did to us Japanese people in WWII". What?!?

It was just evidence over and over that the govt is lying to the populace in education and the majority of Japanese people just don't even know what happened in Asia under the invading Japanese Army.

[Finny]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for posting this. I've read a bit about Unit 731, but I'll certainly use this as a reminder to do some more reasearch.

Cheers,

Brendan

[P Goldsbury]

Originally posted by Finny
Hi Tony,

Thanks for posting this. I've read a bit about Unit 731, but I'll certainly use this as a reminder to do some more reasearch.

Cheers,

Brendan

There was a book published a few years ago by Wallace & Williams, after a BBC programme. Sheldon Garron's "Factories of Death" gives much the same message, but with more scholarly apparatus. If you can read Japanese, the three volumes by Morimura Seiji, with the general title "Akuma no Houshoku" ("Gluttony of the Devil"), published in 1983, were pioneering in many ways and did not make him very popular.

I never ceased to be amazed at what I have to teach my Japanese students about their own history. This is especially true in a place like Hiroshima, which has the added problem of a flourishing 'world peace' industry. This is supposed to make the historical amnesia more acceptable.

Finally, I found Erna Law's "Truth Lies and History" of great interest, for historical amnesia is not unique to Japan.

Best regards,

[Kimpatsu]

Hello, Peter. Good to have you on board in this discussion.
Another book on the subject I'd recommend is Unit 731: Testimony (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/4900737399/103-9851792-8390212?v=glance) by Hal Gold. Mr. Gold interviewed the handful of survivors from the experiments, and the families of victims, to compile a witness list of those who suffered at the hands of the Unit.

[P Goldsbury]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Hello, Peter. Good to have you on board in this discussion.
Another book on the subject I'd recommend is Unit 731: Testimony (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/4900737399/103-9851792-8390212?v=glance) by Hal Gold. Mr. Gold interviewed the handful of survivors from the experiments, and the families of victims, to compile a witness list of those who suffered at the hands of the Unit.

Hello Tony,

Yes, I have the book. I found it after I sent the last post. Also, "Factories of Death" was written by Sheldon Harris and not Sheldon Garon. Garon wrote another book, "Moulding Japanese Minds", which deals with social management in Japan—probably good background reading for the issues concerning Unit 731.

Best regards,

[Kimpatsu]

Cool, Peter. Thanks for the recommendations. My "must read" list keeps growing, and I have a huge backlog of about 20 books on my shelves that I haven't yet read. If only I could find more time to read, but with work, training, and everything else, I really need a 26-hour day. ;)
Hope all is well in Hiroshima.
Best regards,

[Joseph Svinth]

Peter --

If you're feeling frisky, remind the students that the atomic bombing seriously hindered Japan's ability to manufacture mustard and equivalent weapons of mass destruction. Hiroshima was, after all, one of the major production centers for Japanese chemical weapons during the China and Pacific Wars.

For some local references, try Wada S, Nishimoto Y, Miyanishi M, Katsuta S, Nishiki M. 1962. Review of Okuno-jima poison gas factory regarding occupational environment. Hiroshima Journal of Medical Sciences 11:75-80 -- seems the arsenic levels in the area are still toxic due to the wartime production processes. Cancer and respiratory risks are increased accordingly.

Online, try http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000189.html .

You might also look to the veterans' group reunions. From what I read, many members of Unit 731 are proud of their accomplishments, so doubtless their grandchildren should be, too.

[P Goldsbury]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
Peter --

If you're feeling frisky, remind the students that the atomic bombing seriously hindered Japan's ability to manufacture mustard and equivalent weapons of mass destruction. Hiroshima was, after all, one of the major production centers for Japanese chemical weapons during the China and Pacific Wars.

For some local references, try Wada S, Nishimoto Y, Miyanishi M, Katsuta S, Nishiki M. 1962. Review of Okuno-jima poison gas factory regarding occupational environment. Hiroshima Journal of Medical Sciences 11:75-80 -- seems the arsenic levels in the area are still toxic due to the wartime production processes. Cancer and respiratory risks are increased accordingly.

Online, try http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000189.html .

You might also look to the veterans' group reunions. From what I read, many members of Unit 731 are proud of their accomplishments, so doubtless their grandchildren should be, too.

Hello Joe,

Yes, the island of Okunojima disappeared from all Japanese maps for quite some time, but was rediscovered and is now being promoted as a tourist attraction. It is one of the islands in the Seto Inland Sea and is touted as a place for 'healthy living': running, camping, hiking—that sort of thing. The old poison gas factory is a museum, but I think some people would very much like to demolish it.

Best,

[P Goldsbury]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Cool, Peter. Thanks for the recommendations. My "must read" list keeps growing, and I have a huge backlog of about 20 books on my shelves that I haven't yet read. If only I could find more time to read, but with work, training, and everything else, I really need a 26-hour day. ;)
Hope all is well in Hiroshima.
Best regards,

Hello Tony,

I know the feeling about the booklist. I keep adding to mine because ordering from Amazon is so easy and I also have a research budget that I have to spend every year.

Hirodai recently started a course called 'Hiroshima-gaku' (which is interpreted to mean something like 'Peace Studies from the Unique Hiroshima Viewpoint'). I am sure you can imagine the contents, but my contribution sticks up like the proverbial nail. It is a lecture in Japanese on a raft of issues relating to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima.

The main focus is
(1) a straight comparison between the aims & effects of biological warfare and atomic warfare,
(2) an analysis of civilian participation in war, and
(3) a study of how history is systematically falsified—but how the truth in some form eventually emerges.

Students attending the course have to write down their reactions to the lectures under two headings: a summary of the contents and their 'kansou' = 'feelings'. I have summarized the results over the three years I have participated in the course.

1. Disbelief—I cannot believe that what I am hearing can possibly be true. Sensei is misinformed (of course, he is a foreigner, so he cannot really be expected to know about our nation's history). (5%)
2. Shock, but subordinated to a desire for 'closure': Yes, these things happened but we must look to the future, which is always golden if we feel it so.
(50%)
3. Anger: why is this person standing up in front of us and telling us such things. (Occasionally, students walk out of the class.)
(2%)
4. Weak acknowledgement: Yes, these things happened but we were powerless to prevent them.
(40%)
5. Strong acknowledgment: Yes, these things happened and we must find out the whole truth about them.
(3%—in most cases older students, who are coming back to university after raising their families)

Erna Law's book is very interesting in this respect, because she takes up three issues relating to WWII: (1) how Germans allowed their Jewish (but German!!) neighbours to be carted off to the death camps, (2) how the Vichy government in France cooperated with the Nazis in sending French Jews to the same destinations. In these two cases the truth is gradually—grudgingly—emerging, but investigation and redress has been carried out by the governments in question. The third case is different. In Japan the horror of the atomic bombings has been used to stifle any reasoned discussion of Japan's wartime atrocities—and the Japanese government has actively connived in preventing the truth from emerging.

Thus, many Japanese do not understand why the Yasukuni Shrine is such a powerful symbol—as powerful as Hiroshima's A-Bomb Dome, but for other reasons. Others understand quite clearly and happily acknowledge the validity of these other reasons.

Finally, Tony, here is a question. I have found in my 25 years here in Japan that the aikido establishment is way to the right of centre concerning issues relating to WWII. How about shorinji kempo in Japan?

Best wishes,

PAG

[Kimpatsu]

Hello, Peter.
The issue of national wrongdoings is a thorny one, because every nation likes to idealise its behaviour in wartime and forget the wrongdoing. If you visit France, you will find blue plaques commemorating the Resistance, but nothing in the museums about the Vichy collaboration. The idea is very much one of "sins of the fathers"; the idea that French blood and honour are eternally tainted were such an admission of guilt be allowed to permeate the national consciousness. Failing to deal with it somehow invalidates it as fact.
I get the impression that the majority of Japanese view the A-bopmbs as an ultimate evil perpetrated upon Japan, which can never be justified. The argument goes that no matter Japan and America were at war, no matter how many lives may have been saved in the long run, the atom bomb is a pure evil and so it is America that owes Japan an apology, whilst Japan has already made good for Pearl Harbour. There is a definite sense that Japan is forever owed something for having been bombed. This stems, in part, I suspect, from wounded national pride; the "land of the gods" suffered the atomic kiss, and the gods are still in pain. So it's up to America to roll over and do whatever we ask forevermore.
As to Shorinji Kempo, the art has its roots in a postwar attempt to reviive national pride, so although I've never canvassed my fellow Kenshis' opinions on the subject, I suspect that the older generation will feel that America was wrong, and the younger generation will be unclear as to what exactly happened in August 1945; they'll just regurgitate the crap they've been spoonfed in school, which takes the "Japan right, America wrong" line. This is only me spitballing, however, and I'll have to check it out and get back to you.
Regards,

[Joseph Svinth]

Peter --

Something to look at from that standpoint is the history of the 555th Parachute Battalion. An African-American outfit (the US military was still segregated in those days), it spent its war fighting the forest fires started by the Japanese balloon bombs. The balloon bombs, many built at the sumo stadium in Tokyo, were meant to carry bio weapons, and the Japanese hoped to learn if they were landing via press reports prior to loading up the anthrax. However, due to the US Army using the Triple Nickles as Smokey the Bears, there was never much coverage of unexplained forest fires. Hence, the Japanese never knew that the method worked. See http://www.triplenickle.com/

You also might introduce the kiddies to the August 1945 debacle in Manchuria and Korea. The Soviets invaded Manchuria about 8 hours before Fat Man hit Nagasaki. In the US, the bombing was the big news, but I would guess in the Japanese GHQ, the Soviet advance (up to 150 km per day, with tens of thousands of Japanese surrendering every day) was kinda unnerving. Here, a comparison to Desert Storm would be appropriate. In this scenario, the Japanese play the Iraqis, and overall, the Kwantung Army's performance was not nearly as impressive as Saddam's, in either war.

See http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1986/RMF.htm

[nicojo]

Kimpatsu, et al,

Just wanted to voice my appreciation for threads like this. Learning a lot through the good discussion from all responders. John Lindsey used to post just about anything interesting in current events of Japan when he was Mod in chief, and I've missed that. These threads are quite good--int'l politics and cultures is a pet interest of mine, and my recent trip to Japan entailed a few kooky things along these lines.

[P Goldsbury]

Originally posted by P Goldsbury


Hirodai recently started a course called 'Hiroshima-gaku' (which is interpreted to mean something like 'Peace Studies from the Unique Hiroshima Viewpoint'). I am sure you can imagine the contents, but my contribution sticks up like the proverbial nail. It is a lecture in Japanese on a raft of issues relating to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima.



A footnote to my last long post.

Connecting the issues of the atomic bombing to those of biological warfare and Unit 731—especially when it is done in their own language and in Hiroshima: a sacred place—makes my audience extremely uncomfortable. However, my Japanese colleagues are very enthusiastic about my contribution to this lecture series, which even made the Yomiuri Shimbun at one point. Their line is that 'these things need to be said', but note that this is also in some sense a way of avoiding responsibility for the problem. They accept the logic of what I say, but could never say it themselves in their own classes—as if the truth were too shameful to admit.

Best regards,

[Saburo]

Is that like how the hero in the chanbara movies is usually an outsider?

[Troll Basher]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Hello, Peter. Good to have you on board in this discussion.
Another book on the subject I'd recommend is Unit 731: Testimony (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/4900737399/103-9851792-8390212?v=glance) by Hal Gold. Mr. Gold interviewed the handful of survivors from the experiments, and the families of victims, to compile a witness list of those who suffered at the hands of the Unit.


I found that if I ever have a discussion with Japanese about "war crimes" comitted by Japanese during WWII most Japanese will deny any such thing.......then I mention UNit 731 and they can't really say much after that.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Troll Basher
I found that if I ever have a discussion with Japanese about "war crimes" comitted by Japanese during WWII most Japanese will deny any such thing.......then I mention UNit 731 and they can't really say much after that.
Hey, Robert, where have you been hiding?
What exactly DO these people say in response?

[Troll Basher]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Hey, Robert, where have you been hiding?
What exactly DO these people say in response?



I have been working on Zama and Yokosuka.

They usually say nothing or if they do it's something like "oh you know about that uh?".
I had this discussion with my father in law one time. He made some off the cuff comment about the "Great Japanese Imperial Army" .......so we had a long discussion about all the great things they did during the war and how they liberated the peoples of asia. BTW, he is a JodoShinShu Priest and during the war their order was rather right wing from what I have been told.

[Joseph Svinth]

The Cooks' book, "Japan at War: An Oral History," has interesting accounts, too. One relating to the school children who made the balloon bombs appears here: http://e.herr.home.att.net/girls1_.html :

"When the war ended, we felt that what we had done, all that effort, everything we had suffered, had been in vain. I was overwhelmed by a sense of emptiness. I didn't really want to think about the days we spent there. There wasn't anything good to remember. We only learned some forty years later that the balloon bombs we made had actually reached America. They started a few forest fires and inflicted some casualties, among them children. Five children and a woman killed on a picnic in Oregon in May, 1945 when a bomb dropped earlier exploded. When I heard that, I was stunned. I made those weapons. Until then, I had felt only that our youth had been stolen from us, and that I'd missed my chance to study. I thought we were victims of the war."

For more on this topic, see http://www.lib.msu.edu/unsworth/genhist/ww2/ww2st/fugo1.htm

***

BTW, here's a microfilm series that should be of interest to folks wanting to know more about the postwar rearmament of Japan -- http://www.lexisnexis.com/academic/2upa/Ias/OccupationJapanRearmament.asp . At $45,000 a set, I think you want to read it at the library.

[KhawMengLee]

Yeh, thank god for this post. I've done a lot of reading on Unit 731's activities and its amazining the response most japanese have to this subject...as in "oh yes, it was bad" and thats it.

[don]

Originally posted by KhawMengLee
Yeh, thank god for this post. I've done a lot of reading on Unit 731's activities and its amazining the response most japanese have to this subject...as in "oh yes, it was bad" and thats it.

One could get that impression, but I'm not sure it would be accurate; take into account their predisposition to avoid unpleasantness.

The world press harps on Japan's textbooks and how they softpedal Jpn depradations against Asia, but teachers, typically leaning to the left, fill in the gaps. A couple of my students (Jpn high school) were musing on how cruel was to atomic bombing of Japan; one of them looking down interjected, "But Japan did bad things, too." The others immediately shut up, trumped.

I don't know that the Jpn are lacking conscience about the wickedness of their government anymore than Americans are. Consider e.g., the pattern of support our government shows for numerous offensive regimes around the world including Iraq. Start pounding a drum and we fall into lockstep, too. There aren't any major demonstrations in the street calling for the prosecution of Henry Kissinger as a war criminal, either, relegating the glorious precedent we set in Nuremburg to victor's justice.

Hi ho, so it goes.

[nicojo]

Since this is a "sins of the past thread," I will just ask the question here instead of the history forum or making a new thread.

I want a little info on the whole Sakhalin/Kurile Island thing. I know a bit about the Russo-Japanese war and the aftermath of WWII in terms of how the islands went to one nation, then the other. Feel free to expand. Specifically, however, I wonder if it is still a diplomatic issue--that is, do the Japanese lay an active, not just historical, claim to these? Or Taiwan? Do the islands get brought up in contemporary political or informal (not just academic/historical) discussions?

Really, I just like abusing my access to the collective wisdom of the posters here. :)

[Michael Bland]

Glad to hear that at least 1 student in 1 class was aware that Japan had done some bad things. I certainly never saw that in the 2 years I taught at Junior High Schools in Japan.

I remember being given a lot of crap on HIroshima Day and when I asked about Pearl Harbor, none of the Japanese teachers or students even knew what it was. Min you, this was before the Ben Affleck movie came out.

One of the Japanese history teachers invited me into his class (I had no idea why) and I found out it was for the students to ask me about all the horrible things that the US govt had done to the Native Americans. My mother is native American and my step-father was born and raised on a reservation, so I did have some background there, though the teacher did not know it. Even so, I remember reading about the Trail of Tears and other atrocities against Native Americans in our textbooks.

When I mentioned that the Japanese had displaced or outbred the native Ainu, the teacher and the students had no clue about this.

I also remember reading about the My Lai trials of Vietnam in my history textbooks. Based on my own US education, I really believe that the US tends to recognize our wrongdoings FAR more than Japan does. And I think the issue here is that Japan really hasn't made any effort at all to change how they present the past to their children.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by don
The world press harps on Japan's textbooks and how they softpedal Jpn depradations against Asia, but teachers, typically leaning to the left, fill in the gaps. A couple of my students (Jpn high school) were musing on how cruel was to atomic bombing of Japan; one of them looking down interjected, "But Japan did bad things, too." The others immediately shut up, trumped.
That's called a tu quoque logical fallacy, Don. Regardless of what the Japanese did, in Singapore, Burma, etc., the merits of the A-bomb are a separate issue, to be discussed separately.
Originally posted by don
I don't know that the Jpn are lacking conscience about the wickedness of their government anymore than Americans are. Consider e.g., the pattern of support our government shows for numerous offensive regimes around the world including Iraq. Start pounding a drum and we fall into lockstep, too. There aren't any major demonstrations in the street calling for the prosecution of Henry Kissinger as a war criminal, either, relegating the glorious precedent we set in Nuremburg to victor's justice.
You're still arguing tu quoque. Kissenger is a separate issue from Jpaanese behaviour in WWII. The real issue under discussion here is the unwillingness of the Japanese to discuss the sordid elements of their past, and pretend that nothing ever really happened, as this would tarnish their fervent belief that Japan is he land of the gods, uniquely unique, and unutterably special. It's as if they can remake history by not thinking about it.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by nicojo
Since this is a "sins of the past thread," I will just ask the question here instead of the history forum or making a new thread.

I want a little info on the whole Sakhalin/Kurile Island thing. I know a bit about the Russo-Japanese war and the aftermath of WWII in terms of how the islands went to one nation, then the other. Feel free to expand. Specifically, however, I wonder if it is still a diplomatic issue--that is, do the Japanese lay an active, not just historical, claim to these? Or Taiwan? Do the islands get brought up in contemporary political or informal (not just academic/historical) discussions?

Really, I just like abusing my access to the collective wisdom of the posters here. :)
Hi, Nicojo.
The Japanese still lay claim to the Kuriles. The Russians declared war on Japan and annexed the islands two days before the Japanese surrender; they just took advantage of the inevitable. As they had a non-agression pact in force at the time, the loss of the islands is particularly galling. The Japanese government asks for the islands back all the time, but the Russians always tell them where to shove it. In the early days following the fall of the Soviet Union, it was bruited that the Russians might be willing to sell the islands back to Japan, in exchange for much-needed hard currency, but nothing ever matierlaised. After all, ceding land is a vexed question; although the islands are really Japanese, and the Russians need the money, any president who sells the islands is going to be universally unpopular among Russian voters, who will see such loss of territory as loss of face.
I hope that answers your question.

[Joseph Svinth]

For some background, try http://www.iir.ubc.ca/cancaps/andersen.html . Not mentioned here is that the Edo-era Japanese used to do a lot of smuggling through the Kuriles and Hokkaido, reportedly on a scale similar to what the Satsuma were doing through Okinawa. They still might, too, judging from the news reports of opium arrests in Hokkaido.

So, why do the Japanese still want the place? Seals, maybe. From http://www.aasianst.org/absts/1998abst/japan/j139.htm : "Early on, Tokugawa Ieyasu demonstrated an interest in the medicines available in Ezo. In 1604, for example, among the topics discussed between Ieyasu and Matsumae Yoshihiro was the availability of fur seals. Dried fur seal penis was considered a potent medicine, and was traded at the highest levels as official gifts. The shogunate even ordered that a medicinal lichen, as well as bear gallbladder, be sent to Edo. Medicinal gifts tied the distant Matsumae domain, as well as Ainu lands, to the political hub of Tokugawa Japan."

[P Goldsbury]

The world press harps on Japan's textbooks and how they softpedal Jpn depradations against Asia, but teachers, typically leaning to the left, fill in the gaps. A couple of my students (Jpn high school) were musing on how cruel was to atomic bombing of Japan; one of them looking down interjected, "But Japan did bad things, too." The others immediately shut up, trumped.

Hello Don,

I am acutely aware that many of my Japanese friends here do not subscribe to the official line so assiduously put out by Hiroshima City concerning the atomic bombing. I suspect, too, that the line put out by Nikkyousou (Japan Teachers Union) is also somewhat diffent, though opposed to that of the city government.

One of my volunteer tasks here is to serve as an Adviser (Hyougiin) to the City Peace Culture Foundation, which maintains the Peace Memorial Park & Museum and the A-Bomb Dome. This organization is constantly trying to raise the level of 'peace awareness' among the general population here. In this respect the city government is following a tradition established much earlier, which is discussed by Sheldon Garon in the book I mentioned in an earlier post. In this tradition the teaching of history is also a form of social management: in fact it is far more important as a means of social control than making sure that high school students know the truth about the past.

I think there is an issue here concerning the extent to which the values of a culture (the desired and the dessirable) are actually shared by the individuals in the culture. One could put the issue in another way by asking what someone like Geert Hofstede has to take for granted in his research on cultural values (e.g., in "Culture's Consequences" and "Cultures and Organizations"). I mention Hofstede because I use his material in my comparative culture class here.

Best regards,

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
So, why do the Japanese still want the place?
Joe, they still want the place because having it snatched by the Russians is loss of face. That it's a viable seal fur site is an added bonus, but even if it were a useless hunk of rock, they'd still want it back. Better the Japanese than the barbarian Russians, after all. And that doesn't even start to take into account the loss of face owing to the manner of loss; namely, two days before surrender, to a country that declared war opportunistically, by a country with which Japan had a non-aggression pact.

[Joseph Svinth]

I suppose it would is more hopeful to ask for the Kuriles back than to ask for, say, Manchuria, back.

Speaking of Manchuria, I suppose that the mass surrenders in Manchuria and Korea also don't get a lot of play in Japanese history classes?

The Japanese being outraged, though, that Joe Stalin would launch a sneak attack is kinda rich, inasmuch as the Japanese launched both the China and the Pacific wars using sneak attacks. Also, his ability to "sneak" a couple million soldiers and thousands of tanks, guns, aircraft, and warships into a contested frontier area speaks highly of Marshal Zhukov, and very poorly of Japanese military intelligence.

[Saburo]

Speaking of Manchuria, I suppose that the mass surrenders in Manchuria and Korea also don't get a lot of play in Japanese history classes?

Lot's of Japanese history classes don't get that far.

Most Japanese students probably don't care that much even if they do go over the material. It might catch their interest for a few classes at best.

The people who care are either foreigners, right-wingers, or otaku nerds.

[don]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
That's called a tu quoque logical fallacy, Don. Regardless of what the Japanese did, in Singapore, Burma, etc., the merits of the A-bomb are a separate issue, to be discussed separately.

You're right.

_________________

Peter,

thanks for the response.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by don
You're right.
Cheers, Don. Would you like to start a separate thread on the issue?

[don]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Cheers, Don. Would you like to start a separate thread on the issue?

Thanks for the offer, but no, I got it off my chest. It'll do for now.

Take care.