Kendo-no-kata with mogito

[A. Bakken]

Is it common to use mogito for the kendo-no-kata? Are the kata altered in any way compared to the bokuto version?

[hyaku]

Here in our city they use them to demonstrate at th beggining of big Kendo Taikai.

I have a few old ones lying about that look like broken saw blades that were used by an old teacher. Now they produce a special kata iaito that holds up to wear a bit more.

The main problem is with the Kendo Roku/Nanadan that use them.They have never done a days swordwork in their lives and have to practice like crazy to get the feel of a different shaped weapon to cut and parry with.

[ulvulv]

Not with standard iaito

http://www.japan-budo.de/index.php?url=http://www.japan-budo.de/produkte/iaito/standard/kendo_kata_yo.html

i do not think the use of the kendokatayo is that widespread in kendocircles around the world. Kendokata in itself gets to little attention anyways, and most kendopeople would rather save their bucks for a 1.0 bu boguset with same-covered do and titanium mengane than buying such an alloy toy. :p

[Brian Owens]

It's not exactly Kendo-no-Kata, but in the video Budo: Art of Killing there is a sequence where several kenshi do their kata with shinken.

First they cut some bamboo to demonstrate that they are, in fact, using live blades, and then they go at each other.

That's a sequence I hope they got in "one take."
Gives a whole new meaning to the director yelling "Cut! That's a wrap!" ;)

[gendzwil]

We use iaito for public demonstrations. We don't alter the kata at all. They take a little getting used to because they're so narrow compared to bokken, so for example the suriagi-kote in #6 is a little trickier. The biggest problem with them is if you screw up and take a more direct contact than you should, they can bend and then be impossible to sheath. Slightly embarassing. Oh, there was that one time when we were in tight quarters that my partner moved into waki-gamae and stuck the kensen into the wall behind him. There was a slight delay as he tugged it free. We still laugh about that one.

[Krusse]

I've only seen them used in public demonstration, too.
But the importance of kata differs widely. Here in germany, about every high-ranked (6-8th dan) japanese sensei i've seen encourages us to practice kata, and we have mandatory 1hour kata training for everyone after their first half year.

In a few years, if I find a partner who's willing to invest the $$ in iaito or shinken, too, I might consider going for that rather than a 1bu bogu :)

[Krusse]

damn edit time-limit :P

I just wanted to clarify that this emphasis on kata is in our dojo, not in the entire german kendo federation.
I guess most people don't see much glory in practicing kata at all and prefer training for competition, so they'd never spend money for good equipment and stay at a 10$ bokken.

[Chidokan]

Think I heard somewhere that you are supposed to use swords after godan.... anyways, I quite like using them as I also do iaido. It gives a certain 'carefulness' from students when you first show this to someone who is not used to swords. This (added to the fact that I give out the intent of a cut) lifts the kata levels quite well....;)

[MikeWilliams]

Oops, sorry - I thought this thread was about kendo-no-kata with mojitos.

I'll leave you to it *hic*

[ulvulv]

You kendo absolutely no kata with mojitos.

[Maro]

I've never seen a Iaito seriosly damaged - do they bend or snap?

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Maro
I've never seen a Iaito seriosly damaged - do they bend or snap?

Most have aluminum blades, some aluminum/beryllium alloy; not as hard as steel.

I've seen many that are chipped along the edge from being misused, and have seen one that snapped when someone tried to actually cut with it after watching a "ninja" movie.

I haven't seen one that was bent, but I'm sure it's possible; aluminum is fairly ductile.

The kendo kata yo are supposed to be stronger than regular iaito, but I've never actually examined one closely.

If I were to start doing kata with other than bokken, I would probably spend the extra money to get a steel blade. Swordstore.com have told me they would gladly blunt one of their "Steel 'Iaito' That Cut" if I wanted, and I'm sure other suppliers are out there that could provide similar blades on request.

[Maro]

Yeah- I've seen a few chips

Interested morbidly I suppose!

[Kaoru]

Originally posted by A. Bakken
Is it common to use mogito for the kendo-no-kata? Are the kata altered in any way compared to the bokuto version?

What? :confused: Can someone explain to me this, please? Is a mogito a sword, and if so, why would anything have to be altered? What's the difference? I read the entire thread, but I really am a little confused.

Thanks minna-san!

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Kaoru
What? :confused: Can someone explain to me this, please? Is a mogito a sword...

Mogito is a sword without an edge; the opposite of shinken. (Not to be confused with a mojito, which is a (Mexican?) cocktail of some kind. I don't drink, so I'm not an expert.;) )

Iaito are one kind of mogito, kendo-kata-yo are another. The latter are built more sturdily than the former, to withstand some contact.

Originally posted by Kaoru
...why would anything have to be altered?
I'm not a Kendoka, so I don't know much about the Kendogata, but I suspect some might want to use a little more distance or slower timing or something if they were using thin metal blades versus thick wood blades, at least in the beginning.

[Maro]

After too many mojito, it's easy to mistake your mogito with your shinken:D

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Maro
After too many mojito, it's easy to mistake your mogito with your shinken:D
But only once. :laugh:

[Daniel Lee]

Originally posted by Brian Owens
Mogito is a sword without an edge; the opposite of shinken. Iaito are one kind of mogito, kendo-kata-yo are another.

It might be better to say mogito/mozoto are "replica" swords. Swords without an edge are called habikito, but aren't always mogito/mozoto. To confuse matters further, the name iaito is used by some nihonto dealers these days to refer to any sword that can be used for iai, although there seems to be an inclination for the term to refer to shinken, rather than replica, with many dealers.

Talk about confusing! :confused:

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Daniel Lee
...To confuse matters further, the name iaito is used by some nihonto dealers these days to refer to any sword that can be used for iai, although there seems to be an inclination for the term to refer to shinken, rather than replica, with many dealers.

That would be confusing. I have only seen dealers like Tozando and Nosyuiado use the term "iaito" for blades of non-ferrous metals and with a dull edge, and they refer to sharp steel swords of new manufacture aimed at iaido practitioners as "shinsakuto."

(The exception is the "Steel Iaito That Cut" from Swordstore.)

[Daniel Lee]

Originally posted by Daniel Lee
The name iaito is used by some nihonto dealers these days to refer to any sword that can be used for iai, although there seems to be an inclination for the term to refer to shinken, rather than replica, with many dealers.


I stand corrected. The above quote should read "although there seems to be an inclination for the term to refer to replica, rather than shinken, with many dealers."

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Brian Owens
(Not to be confused with a mojito, which is a (Mexican?) cocktail of some kind. I don't drink, so I'm not an expert.;) )
Never one to let my intellectual curiosity go unsated, I've done some research.

The Mojito is a Cuban, not Mexican, drink, and was inspired by the Kentucky Mint Julep; but using, of course, rum instead of bourbon.

From Cuba it spread to the rest of the Carribean and to the Florida Keys, and then on to the rest of the known world. :beer:

As for mogito, as Daniel Lee pointed out, having a dull edge doesn't always a mogito make; mogito also have non-ferrous blades.

I didn't like the term "replica," because I have a copy of a very old tachi that has a sharp, forged steel blade complete with hamon that I think of as an historical replica, but I guess I could call it a "reproduction" or "re-creation."

Also, when I said iaito/mogito have a dull edge, that is a relative term. I have seen iaito sharp enough to break the skin. They keep you on your toes and don't let you get lazy or complacent in your practice. Still, they weren't sharp enough to shave paper into strips nor to cut bamboo, so I would still say they have a dull edge.

I hope that I haven't confused you, Kaoru-san. I was trying to be helpful, but sometimes I'm the only one that seems to know what I'm saying. ;)

[Kaoru]

Originally posted by Brian Owens
Never one to let my intellectual curiosity go unsated, I've done some research.

The Mojito is a Cuban, not Mexican, drink, and was inspired by the Kentucky Mint Julep; but using, of course, rum instead of bourbon.

From Cuba it spread to the rest of the Carribean and to the Florida Keys, and then on to the rest of the known world. :beer:

As for mogito, as Daniel Lee pointed out, having a dull edge doesn't always a mogito make; mogito also have non-ferrous blades.

I didn't like the term "replica," because I have a copy of a very old tachi that has a sharp, forged steel blade complete with hamon that I think of as an historical replica, but I guess I could call it a "reproduction" or "re-creation."

Also, when I said iaito/mogito have a dull edge, that is a relative term. I have seen iaito sharp enough to break the skin. They keep you on your toes and don't let you get lazy or complacent in your practice. Still, they weren't sharp enough to shave paper into strips nor to cut bamboo, so I would still say they have a dull edge.

I hope that I haven't confused you, Kaoru-san. I was trying to be helpful, but sometimes I'm the only one that seems to know what I'm saying. ;)

Hi Brian-san!

Thank you very much. And, thank you very much too, Daniel-san!

Now I am confused. :D But, I sorta get it. But, still am a bit confused! Maybe if I read this thread 6 more times, I'll figure it all out, what you both just said. Anyway, that's ok. I will eventually get unconfused. ;) Thank you for trying to explain it all to me. You both were very helpful. :)

Well, I DID learn about some new drink and it's history even though I don't drink! Yet another bit of useless trivia to store away for future use! :D

:)