Bokuto as self-defense weapon.

[Charlie Kondek]

So, this has come up for me in conversation a couple of times in which non-sword-types say to me, "Yeah, but seeing as how you do kendo you could just pick up your bokken or a broom handle and lay the smack down, right?"

Meaning, they think my background in kendo and iaido would allow me to use the bokuto as a good self-defense weapon. I always reply that I actually don't think it is a good self-defense weapon against an unarmed assailant for a number of reasons, not the least of which are that the object could be taken from me and used on me, and that should I ever, God forbid, get into a scrap, I'll most likely fall on my hand-to-hand background instead.

I guess my main thought is that in an unarmed confrontation the maai closes very quickly, rendering the bokuto useless after the initial clash. And yet, of old wasn't this weapon seen as a good one for hand-to-hand skirmishes? What are your thoughts? What strategy would you employ using the bokuto in this fashion?

[tsurashi shondo]

Neat question.
How about employing it in a way like a hanbo?
Kukishin-ryu comes to mind ( as an ex.). Lots of short range techniques, as well as the flexibility to use the weapon's length to distance yourself from the attacker. Good leverage tool for locks and pins too.
Curved or not, it's still just a 3.5 foot stick.
thoughts?

[Bullbrand]

How about using it like a bokken?

Use it just like you would normally. If you get whacked with a bokken you will know about it (I can testify lol ). Why change what you know about it. Would you want to block that thing swung with intent? I sure as heck would not, at least not with my bare hands. Most cuts or attacks wont be easy to block with your bare hands, if at all, let alone getting out of the way or blocking and counter attacking. As for someone getting out of the way, that again would require skill. If someone can evade your attacks with a bokken, they will probably kick yer butt anyways.

[Lee Marsh]

Musashi killed his most famous opponent with a bokken carved from an oar.

[Gattsu]

...I agree with Bullbrand...by using your bokken as myou usually use it, or even as you use your shinai you can inflict quite a lot of damage (just imagine a tsuki thrust)...and even if you do not want to fight you can use it to maintain the distance between yourself and the attacker...

[Charlie Kondek]

None of you see the danger of an opponent rushing you, closing the maai and rendering the bokuto useless because you can't get the full swing? I also think the attacker could take a hit with the bokuto and keep coming, even a hit to the head. A good kote strike might take one hand out of the equation. But then he's still got another hand... and teeth...

[DCPan]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
I guess my main thought is that in an unarmed confrontation the maai closes very quickly, rendering the bokuto useless after the initial clash. And yet, of old wasn't this weapon seen as a good one for hand-to-hand skirmishes? What are your thoughts? What strategy would you employ using the bokuto in this fashion?

Well...there is no judge saying you are not striking with the mono-uchi when you are in that situation, so the after the initial clash thing hardly applies.

Remember to use jodan or hasso...if you use chudan, the guy CAN grab the tip and wrestle with you, which you probably don't want.

Tsuka-whip, half-sword techniques (i.e. soete-zuki or other hand on mune stuff), using it as a lever for holds and stuff...there's a ton of fun stuff you can do with it! ^_^ (i.e. wooden stick on pressure point)

[chrismoses]

I've done a fair ammount of tachi-dori and know for a fact that given my current level of skill in open-hand vs. armed fighting, there is no way I could disarm myself. Without getting into the whole kendo vs. kenjutsu thing, sine Shinto Ryu targets joints, eyes and the throat, using the bokken in a simmilar manner as I would a sword would do a LOT of dammage very quickly. If I got bum rushed, well there's no law against using the tsuka as a blunt object, this is in fact taught in some of our movements and I've seen even more examples of this type of thing in TSYR, where nearly all cuts (as I understand them) begin with a strike with the tsuka on the way in. If you were going to hit someone on the top of the head, back of the hand or even classic do-giri, I could see them pressing their advantage. If you smashed their eye socket and collapsed their trachea, they would be much less likely to continue their attack. If they did, the wood would provide leverage for chokes and joint locks. Yup, I like the bokken as a <b>theoretical</b> means of self defense. I don't carry one around with me, but feel that I could use one rather effectively should the opportunity present itself.

[Johnny Yuma]

Yeah, I imagine the efficacy is limited only by your imagination.

[CEB]

Waki no kamae?

Footwork. -
An attacker with a knife can close a distance of 21 feet (I think, maybe it was 27 ... it is a number that has been established in courts as a range for justifiable discharge of a weapon) before a police officer can draw, aim and fire his weapon. In order to create the necessary distance they are taught to move away from the bad guy in a circular manner. Not straight back, you will get closed. This is how you can create distance but it is not very Kendo like.

Using the thing like a stick. -
The applications I teach for Shiushi no Kun Sho ( a kata for this big 6 foot stick thingy) contains 2 techniques for what to do if bad guy grabs your weapon. Both are joint attacks. The one you use depends on how deep he grabs. These would apply to any bludgeoning device I suppose. If someone grabs a your weapon either party can utilize some serious leverage factors. I guess it depends on who is quicker on the stick.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
...I guess my main thought is that in an unarmed confrontation the maai closes very quickly, rendering the bokuto useless after the initial clash.

The initial clash could (should) be the end of it. Properly applied, a stike with a bokuto, or a broom stick, should leave an assailant a) wishing desperately to leave the scene, b) unable to continue an assault due to injuries, c) unconscious, or d) dead.

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
...And yet, of old wasn't this weapon seen as a good one for hand-to-hand skirmishes? What are your thoughts? What strategy would you employ using the bokuto in this fashion?

Musashi's oft mentioned battle with Ganryu is but one example. Many bushi of the day thought the bokken made a perfectly acceptable weapon, not just a training-only substitute for a shinken.

I'm not a kendoka, I'm a kenjutsuka, but from my limited exposure to kendo I would say that the shinai-style hits from chudan that are short, fast, and designed for scoring points may not be all that effective in a defensive encounter; but that falling back on your kendo-no-kata and iai training could serve you well. Just the appearance of a bokken wielding budoka -- with fire in his eyes and nostrils flaring, weapon raised high in jodangamae and no doubt about his intent and capability -- would give most muggers, robbers, etc. pause. And that pause is exactly the time to strike.

I wouldn't worry about it being taken from you and used against you. You have the training and the will to use it, while muggers are generally cowards looking for easy prey. A sword, bokken, cane, broomstick, etc. -- wielded with obvious purpose -- will shift the balance in your favor. Strike hard, stike fast, and strike continuously until there is no doubt that the fight is over.

As a final suggestion, I would get an old bokken that you don't care much about the appearance of, and practice striking hard targets with it; old tires are often used, but canvas bags full of sand, and other improvised targets could be used as well. You'll soon find what techniques work well for hitting, and which would require a blade capable of cutting.

HTH.

[gendzwil]

Start from hasso or jodan. Probably hasso if you're indoors. Be prepared for a lawsuit or jailtime. Especially if he's unarmed. "Guess he shoulda armed hisself" is not a particularily good defence when the judge is evaluating a trained swordsman, using the weapon he trains with, against an unarmed assailant, even if he is da bad guy.

[hyaku]

There are certain technical points that make my use of a bokuto in kenjutsu different. We never outstretch the arms to reach forward to an opponent. The opponents enters the area directley in front and the cut encompassing that area stops about a centimeter from the floor.

The attitude is more of a "Please come within my area" rather than reaching out. No tenouchi required the other guy will slow the striking speed down if it hits him.

[charlesl]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
None of you see the danger of an opponent rushing you, closing the maai and rendering the bokuto useless because you can't get the full swing? I also think the attacker could take a hit with the bokuto and keep coming, even a hit to the head. A good kote strike might take one hand out of the equation. But then he's still got another hand... and teeth...

You know, I can picture that scenario (ie, attacker closing and reducing the utility of the bokuto as a weapon), but always as the result of an error in application. If the distance starts out far enough, then I can only picture hesitation or lack of commitment as the problem.

I mean, in kendo, you don't stand there and take your one shot and if that doesn't work game over, right? Guy comes in, do, uh, something like harai where as you pop back the bokuto pops forward and whacks the guy in the head and then do it again and again, as long as he keeps coming.

I think if the distance is already too close, there's a loss of some application, but hey, you've still got this chunk a wood to pound the crap out of the guy with. I could see how that would come in handy. And it's pokey too!

In the context of the other guy taking the bokuto away and using it on you, I can't picture that so easily, and then he's in the same situation you were just in.

[Maro]

Use it like in Western "Half Swording" - don't rest you palm on the Mune, actually grip it and if they run in, use an underhanded stabbing action.

Safer than a normal bokken thrust as you have more support (Hands further apart and nearer the tip) to avoid the bokken deflecting. Properly applied, they won't be thinking about much afterwards :eek:


Useful if you have a cheaper, less dense bokken.

:D

[Joseph Svinth]

Why start by cutting down? Hold the stick low, by your side, in a non-threatening posture, and then swing up, diagonally across your body. The hip and hand movement is almost identical to the form you use when striking a tetherball. The target is his center. He can block if he likes, you don't care.

If you miss, then when you reach full extension, rotate the stick in your hand, and use the hips to rotate back. During this back slash, the target is his shoulder. If you're both right-handed, then you'll be thumping his left leg and his right arm, and after that, he shouldn't be moving nearly as well.

The form is 7, drawn from the bottom up.

From there, a logical followup is a straight thrust to the throat.

The hip rotation provides all the power, and the arm and the stick just go along for the ride.

If you don't have enough room, then grasp the blade portion and use the bokken like a baton -- butt stroke, thrust, parry, etc. Obviously, you can do the same with a real sword, too, simply by leaving it in the saya.

[JAnstey]

... from semi hasso sword resting on right shoulder,relaxed, step back with the left foot, diagonal cut to the side of the attackers knee, don't think hell get up quickly???

... or better still, run.

Cheers

Jason

[Bruce Mitchell]

While this is an interesting topic, if you're at home and comfortable with pointy-slicey things I would pass on the bokken and head to the kitchen where there are usually some nice sharp things, and then try my hand at sashimi. As for on the street (It could happen, you could be carrying your bokken home from class I guess) I say any advantage helps. You shouldn't bring a knife to a gunfight, nor should you bring your fist to a stick fight IMHO. The medical examiner can always match the blunt object to the skull indentation later, if the need arises.

;)

It does come to mind that an untrained person with a stick in his hand may be a tad more dangerous than a moderately trained one with same stick, since the layperson wouldn't be focused on technique but on caving in skulls (I guess that might be a bit like that mushin thing :p )

[sunny]

ok, so here is my related question...

while we are assuming one is being attacked, lets assume that you are indoors with a low ceiling. no chance to swing from hasso let alone jodan. would the iai practitioners out there revert to say - iai goshi or seiza, from which to get more use of their bokken?

personally i feel i would do whatever the situation demanded, but i was just wondering if people feel they could handle an attack from iai goshi or seiza with someone bearing down on them? certainly all our Iai curriculums are filled will apt responses.
I am an Iaido/jutsu practitiorer myself, so this is in no way an attempt derail those who practice those arts.

best regards
sunny prosser

[Charlie Kondek]

Lot of good food for thought here. Basically what's being said is you have to tighten the swing in closer to you and usea the weapon inside if it comes to that, but that you should be able to cripple from afar, too. There is one thing I would disagree with...

Originally posted by Brian Owens I wouldn't worry about it being taken from you and used against you. You have the training and the will to use it, while muggers are generally cowards looking for easy prey.

I think this is a mischaracterization of the type of person most likely to attack you in a small way, in that it does not factor in that a person willing to attack you is an energetic psycho and actually quite fearless in pursuing his agenda. Such a person might very well take a blow to get his hands on you and go from there, or at least won't be easily discouraged by a blow or even a few blows.

However, lots of good points in this thread. I certainly wouldn't want to carry around a bokuto looking for trouble, of course. I do keep one by the bed. My dog sleeps near it... :D

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
...There is one thing I would disagree with...

I think this is a mischaracterization of the type of person most likely to attack you in a small way, in that it does not factor in that a person willing to attack you is an energetic psycho and actually quite fearless in pursuing his agenda.

I can speak from my experience in law enforcement and executive protection, and tell you that this kind of person, while he or she gets much media attention, is in the minority when it comes to assaults.

Most are either drunks at bars, or muggers who target easy prey.

People who carry themselves well are less likely to be targets, and those who fight back when the worst does happen are less likely to be raped, kidnapped, robbed, whatever. (The exception is with gang violence.)

[Soulend]

I think a bokuto or similar object could make a dandy weapon of opportunity, though it wouldn't be my first choice for home or street due to it's size.

[X-san]

If I needed a weapon, I'd go for my bokuto over my knife any day. I have very little doubt I could inflict massive, fight-ending damage extremely quickly with it. Even better, the cops'll have a much harder time harassing you if you're carrying a stick than if you're carrying something sharp'n'pointy. No law against wood, after all.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by X-san
If I needed a weapon, I'd go for my bokuto over my knife any day....the cops'll have a much harder time harassing you if you're carrying a stick than if you're carrying something sharp'n'pointy. No law against wood, after all.

Not where I live, anyway. Wouldn't surprise me if there were laws against sticks in many places though.

Originally posted by Soulend
I think a bokuto or similar object could make a dandy weapon of opportunity, though it wouldn't be my first choice for home or street due to it's size.

I'm old enough that I can look as though a cane or walking stick is a reasonable accoutrement. Also, in addition to kenjutsu, Jojutsu is also in my repertoire, and my riot training years ago included some hanbo-type "waza" -- so I have a certain fondness for sticks.

Even though I am entitled to carry a concealed handgun (and usually do), there are times when a stick or cane would seem a reasonable thing to take along. In other words, I think they're dandy, too.

[jest]

Originally posted by Brian Owens
Not where I live, anyway. Wouldn't surprise me if there were laws against sticks in many places though.

I'm old enough that I can look as though a cane or walking stick is a reasonable accoutrement. Also, in addition to kenjutsu, Jojutsu is also in my repertoire, and my riot training years ago included some hanbo-type "waza" -- so I have a certain fondness for sticks.

It's against the law here in the Netherlands to carry a bokken/bokuto out in the open, as it resembles a weapon.
If I were attacked en route to/from the dojo or training, my straight, heavy, kissaki-less TSKSR bokken would probably still be my first choice of weapon when it's in a swordbag - even if my knife is closer at hand - but more as a simple cudgel. That said, I usually go by bike, it would be an unwieldy choice of weapon for use on a bicycle.

The good thing about a hefty straight bokken is that it resembles a walking stick far more than one with sori. Even more so with a jo, of course.

Even though I am entitled to carry a concealed handgun (and usually do), there are times when a stick or cane would seem a reasonable thing to take along. In other words, I think they're dandy, too.

And they make you look like a dandy, of course!

[MikeWilliams]

Originally posted by jest
That said, I usually go by bike, it would be an unwieldy choice of weapon for use on a bicycle.

You could use it as a lance! (Or a cavalry sabre.)

[kinopah]

a bokken is a shinken is a jo is a piece of firewood is an oar is a lead pipe is a baseball bat is a sharpie marker is a shakuhachi is a maglite is a rolled up copy of "house beautiful" is your balled up fist.

[tsurashi shondo]

Originally posted by kinopah
a bokken is a shinken is a jo is a piece of firewood is an oar is a lead pipe is a baseball bat is a sharpie marker is a shakuhachi is a maglite is a rolled up copy of "house beautiful" is your balled up fist.

Now you're talkin'.........hockey stick, cricket bat, bicycle pump, umbrella.......the training can be applied to all of these.

[kinopah]

oooh. you got some better ones than me there... bicycle pump... you could even use it like a kusarigama...

[CEB]

A bicycle frame pump is a common last ditch anti dog weapon. Dogs seem to have this thing about chasing cyclists. It is that instinctive chase reflex.

[Soulend]

That rolled-up copy of "House Beautiful" (provided it doesn't have glossy pages) will work wonders if tightly rolled, soaked overnight in water then dried. Maintains it's innocuous appearance, but gains the hardness of concrete. You can crush a skull with the Wall Street Journal.

[X-san]

Not where I live, anyway. Wouldn't surprise me if there were laws against sticks in many places though.

Not in upstate NY, AFAIK, and I've done quite a bit of looking into weapons laws around here. Wouldn't be particularly surprised if there were some in some more liberal cities and so on, but given how easy it is to turn a bokken into a "cane" and the inherent absurdity in making it illegal to carry bits of wood around, I can see them being practically unenforceable. I'd hope the cops have better things to do.

[David T Anderson]

Stick a drugstore crutch tip on a bokken, and presto!...it's a walking stick. You can even carry it aboard a commercial airplane...you might even get priority seating since you are 'handicapped'.

[Scotoe]

I'm not sure if this has been said, but what would you do if you had a bo and you were fighting an unarmed opponent?
Would you ditch the bo, and fight unarmed? Or would you use it to take care of the situation? Like was said before though, It all depends on the situation. His skill may be a lot better than yours or maybe your opponent is high or drunk in which case you better just run!:D

[kinopah]

Originally posted by Scotoe
I'm not sure if this has been said, but what would you do if you had a bo and you were fighting an unarmed opponent?
Would you ditch the bo, and fight unarmed? Or would you use it to take care of the situation? Like was said before though, It all depends on the situation. His skill may be a lot better than yours or maybe your opponent is high or drunk in which case you better just run!:D

that's an interesting hypothetical. i can't think of a situation in which i would have a bo and an unarmed assailant would actually want to fight... like you said, he might be drunk... but then what am i doing in a situation where i would have a bo and be around drunk people?

anyway, if someone wants to attack me (and it's the real deal) i'll use whatever's at my immediate disposal to win the exchange. hopefully that's an avoidable scenario, however...

this whole idea reminds me of the story of musashi's first duel, during which he ditched the staff he was carrying... granted if i remember correctly, he later took his opponent's weapon and killed him with it...

[Ken-Hawaii]

Sorry that I missed the first few days of this thread; it's much more interesting than the one I posted a few months ago about using a sword for self-defense.

The nice thing about a bokken is that your hands are very used to it (assuming you practice iai-do, kendo, kenjutsu, etc.). Yes, I can pick up anything from a stick to a bicycle pump, but in the pickle, you ideally want to be able to use your weapon without worrying if it's going to break (or have the pump handle come loose). :rolleyes:

Being a fencer, I have a tendency to use thrusting weapons if my iaito/bokken isn't in reach. That takes care of most of the indoor problems with swinging, at least for me. Like Brian, I spent a bit of time in law enforcement, & was taught how to use pretty much anything at hand as a weapon. But we should be using the conditioned reflexes we work so hard to develop in our martial arts whenever possible.

And I love David's idea about adding a crutch tip on my bokken! Excellent out-of-the-box thinking! :D :D

Ken