Mystery Sub Spotted in Japanese Waters

[Kimpatsu]

Wednesday November 10, 2004 4:46 AM
BY MARI YAMAGUCHI
Associated Press Writer
TOKYO (AP) - Japan put its navy on alert Wednesday after an unidentified submarine made a brief incursion into territorial waters near southern Okinawa, a top government official said.

The submarine left shortly after it was spotted. A P3C reconnaissance aircraft and destroyer were dispatched to monitor the vessel's movements, Chief Cabinet Secretary Hiroyuki Hosoda said.

Defense chief Yoshinori Ono ``issued a maritime alert order'' after the submarine was spotted near the Sakishima islands in southern Okinawa prefecture (state), Hosoda said.

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi called the incursion ``regrettable. It's certainly not a good thing that a submarine of unknown national origin enters our territorial waters.''

Japan's public broadcaster NHK said defense officials were investigating a possible link between the submarine and Chinese military vessels detected recently in Japan's southern waters.

Defense officials confirmed that two Chinese military vessels - a submarine rescue craft and a towing vessel - were spotted over the weekend 195 miles southeast of Tanegashima island, which is 620 miles from where the submarine was discovered.

Japan has been studying methods for increasing its maritime defenses after a shoot out with a suspected North Korean spy ship in December 2001.

In that incident, Japanese Coast Guard patrol boats fired on and sank the suspected spy ship off southwestern Japan. The Japanese patrol vessels returned fire only after the ship was ordered to stop but opened fire with a rocket and guns.

The Sakishima islands lie in waters between the northeastern tip of Taiwan and Okinawa's main island, 1,000 miles south of Tokyo.

[Saburo]

Maybe some North Koreans were going shopping?

[Bill Gallant]

Well it's certainly not Canadian....;)

[Saburo]

Maybe the some Chinese sailors were looking to do some snorkeling?

:)

[Joseph Svinth]

For more on PRC submarine capabilities, see http://www.usni.org/Proceedings/Articles03/progoldstein03.htm .

Of interest there, note the use of the Russian Shkval ("Squall") supercavitating torpedo, capable of speeds in excess of 200 knots (230 mph, 386 kph). http://www.periscope.ucg.com/mdb-smpl/weapons/minetorp/torpedo/w0004768.shtml , http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/shkval.htm . Canadian involvement in the Shkval is described at http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/main_armstrade.html . Apparently, an explosion of one of these torpedoes in the tube sank the Kursk a few years back.

Now, that said, if you're a conspiracy theorist, then it is possible that this was a Taiwanese submarine. The ROC Navy wants new submarines, and stories like this "prove" their need for them. See, for example, http://www.spacewar.com/2004/041019063415.4urfkwnf.html .

Some background. Back in 2001, President Bush promised to deliver 8 diesel boats to Taiwan. Unfortunately, his staff had done its usual sterling research, and so nobody bothered telling him that the US didn't have any diesel subs to sell. Attention then turned to Holland and Germany, which do build lots of diesel boats for export. However, it turns out that the Dutch and Germans won't sell diesel boats to Taiwan. Why? Well, the Dutch sold two subs to Taiwan back in the 1980s, and PRC slapped sanctions on them. The PRC buys more than Taiwan, so no more subs go thataway. See http://www.taiwandc.org/latimes-2001-02.htm .

And, as the Canadians are now here to tell ya, you don't want to buy used British diesel boats. (HMCS Ronson, Bic, and Zippo -- they light first time, every time. If you don't understand the analogy, see http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2004/11/03/699237-cp.html .)

So, anyway, it now looks as if the ROC has determined to buy US-built diesel boats. Because the US doesn't currently build diesel boats and won't be able to legally use Dutch or German licensed technology, US-built diesel subs will cost more than than comparable European boats. On the other hand, their construction will aid Mississippi shipyards and support the growing US Navy appreciation for the value of late model diesel boats in littoral operations.

The design will involve some interesting technical questions for the Navy, too, to include researching the new rebreathing technology that is capable of keeping a diesel boat submerged without snorkeling for at least 10 days. The Swedes and Germans are currently out front, but there is lots of Canadian interest there, too.

[Kimpatsu]

Joe, that was really great! Did you know this already, or do some extra research for the thread?

[Joseph Svinth]

A bit of both. I had a general knowledge of the politics and the PRC submarine capabilities, but to get the specifics, I had to go to Google.

BTW, those 200-knot torpedoes were totally new to me. I can see that they've been mentioned in public media for a couple years now, but I confess that I was entirely unaware of them.

[hyaku]

?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
A bit of both. I had a general knowledge of the politics and the PRC submarine capabilities, but to get the specifics, I had to go to Google.

BTW, those 200-knot torpedoes were totally new to me. I can see that they've been mentioned in public media for a couple years now, but I confess that I was entirely unaware of them.
Thank you anyway, for a very insightful post.
Hey, you know I'm within torpedo range of these bastards? (I live near the Yokohama Bay coastline.)

[Chuck.Gordon]

Originally posted by hyaku
?

That 'splains lots, Lucy.

Chuck

[Joseph Svinth]

Speaking of submarines, try http://www.domeisland.com/fletcherclass/ussobannon/first_person.html , in which Eugene Herr describes how potatoes were used to help sink a Japanese submarine in 1943.

BTW, if you like naval history, that whole website is great. And no, I didn't have to look that one up, it was already bookmarked as a favorite.

[Shimura]

See I always knew (being a Mainer and prolific potato consumer) the Maine potatoes are better than the Idaho variety. They even directly help in winning battles with subs!

I can just imagine what was going through one of those Japanese sailors heads as he was being brained by a New England spud.

[Joseph Svinth]

Google tells me that John R. Simplot is probably the fellow to thank for all those dehydrated spuds and onions in the US Navy during WWII. For more on him, see http://www.pbs.org/idahoportrait/about/simplot.html .

The Simplot company currently handles 3 billion pounds of spuds per year, and has 12,000 employees, with plants in Maine as well as the Northwest. http://biz.yahoo.com/ic/40/40256.html . Canada, though, has passed the USA in export sales since the late 1990s, and Simplot Manitoba has played a large role in that.

As for who's number one? That's easy. China, of course -- it produces nearly as many spuds as the USA and Canada combined.

[Exorcist_Fist]

Joe, I hope you don't mind, I just quoted you directly on another board, with attribution.

[FastEd]

Just to add, I believe the latest thing on the horizon are new German designed subs that will feature hydrogen fuel cell based electric propulsion.Fuel cell subs (http://www.platinum.matthey.com/media_room/1095328803.html)

[Joseph Svinth]

As noted in Ed's link, the Germans are leaders in this. HDW Kiel is the main company involved, and Northrup Grumman, which owns those sub-capable shipyards in Mississippi, is courting them. See, for example, http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/internet/inimr-ri.nsf/en/gr110193e.html and http://www.hansa-online.de/print.asp?artikelID=76 .

The Swedes have begun fielding equivalent submarines using a different propulsion system, known as the Sterling engine, and it's possible that San Diego will soon be homeport to one of them. See http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20041017/news_1m17swede.html .

[Brian Owens]

Japan: China Regrets Submarine Intrusion

November 16, 2004 03:56 AM EST


TOKYO - China expressed regret Tuesday over what it called an accidental incursion by one of its submarines into Japanese waters last week, Japan's foreign minister said, the first time Beijing has acknowledged the submarine was one of its own.

Chinese officials said the submarine mistakenly entered Japanese waters due to "technical reasons" near the southern island of Okinawa on Wednesday while on a regular training mission, Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura told reporters.

"An investigation by Chinese authorities has confirmed that it was a Chinese nuclear submarine," said Machimura. "China has said that it regrets the incident and will carry on its policy of partnership with Japan unchanged."

Japan's Kyodo News reported that Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Wu Dawei conveyed Beijing's regret to Japan's ambassador to China earlier Tuesday.

Tokyo lodged an official protest with Beijing on Friday after concluding that the submarine belonged to China. It said the direction the submarine took and the fact it was nuclear-powered indicated the craft was Chinese. Beijing previously had refused to comment.

The incursion prompted Japan's navy to go on a rare alert, and reconnaissance aircraft and naval destroyers were dispatched to shadow the craft.

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi has said he did not expect long-term damage to relations with China, but he had made clear he expected Beijing to respond to indications the sub was Chinese.

The incident fanned tempers in Tokyo, where some are worried about China's growing military and economic might.

Japanese media speculated that the incursion was the Chinese military's attempt to expose the Japanese navy's vulnerabilities and test its response. Tokyo's protest also threatened to worsen already eroded ties between two of Asia's largest economic and military powers.

Relations between Japan and China have cooled in recent months as the two sides have wrangled over underwater natural gas fields and several islands surrounded by rich fishing waters. The sub's incursion was close to those areas.

Despite being neighbors, Koizumi and Chinese President Hu Jintao have not met this year, and neither country's leaders have made reciprocal visits since October 2001 - a frostiness apparently caused by Koizumi's repeated visits to a Tokyo war shrine that China says glorifies Japan's brutal World War II aggression.

In an effort to boost relations, Chinese and Japanese officials have been working to arrange a meeting between the two leaders on the sidelines of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Chile later this week.