View Full Version : Daito-ryu Keizu
11-10-2000, 05:32 PM
I was stumbling around the Abashiri Dojo (ex-Daitokan/Seishinkai) groups web page at http://www.daito-ryu.com, and noticed some updates to the pages.
They have taken a more firm and opinionated stance than before, and even used what I wrote about the meaning of Menkyo Kaiden on the Aikido Journal BBS a while ago (slight re-wording, and not my analogy originally to begin with for the record). In fact, here it is:
But anyway, I'll post more about that later.
In the meantime, I was hoping to get some opinions about the "family" line they list on their page:
-Emperor Fujiwara Seiwa(859-876, Minamoto dynasty).
-Shinno Sadazumi (874-916). (6th son of emperor Seiwa (Minamoto dynasty).
-Minamoto no [Tsunemoto] Tasunamoto (894-961).
-Minamoto no Mitsunaka (912-997).
-Minamoto no Yorinobu (968-1084).
-Minamoto no Yoriyoshi (995-1082).
-Minamoto no Yoshiie/ Yoshimitsu (1056-1127). Creator of Daito-ryu.
-Minamoto no Yoshikiyo (...-1163). Founder of Takeda Clan.
-Takeda Nobuyoshi (1138-1186).
-Takeda Nobumitsu (1162-1248).
-Takeda Shingen (1521-1573).
-Takeda Katsuyori (1534 -1582).
-two centuries without recordings
-Takeda Soemon (1758-1853).
-Takeda Sokichi (1819-1906).
-Takeda Sokaku (1860-1945).
-Takeda Tokimune (1915-1992).
-Takeda Masanobu, 37th Soke. (who they claim is Soke now)
* Mr. Pranin's book notes six generations skipped in his lineage chart starting at this point
** Mr. Pranin's book note four generations skipped here
*** Mr. Pranin's book notes another four generation skip here
+ Mr. Pranin's book diverges at this point to Kunitsugu, Chikara and Nobutsugu and returns to Soemon Takeda after noting a 4 generation skip.
-names in parenthesis are not listed in Pranin's book at all.
<font size=2>I've bolded a few sections that are of particular interest. They list Emperor Seiwa back in 859 as the first blood line of the tradition.
They proport that Daito ryu wasn't founded until Minamoto Yoshimitsu (6th generation decendent of Emperor Seiwa) (1056-1127) based of the earlier cryptic art "tegoi". Minamoto Yoshimitsu is of course credited with studying anatomy and living at "Daito mansion", etc.
Also is included is the famous Takeda Shingen (of which the formerly secret technique of Ippon dori is credited).
Then there are two full centuries where no headmaster was recorded (or perhaps records were lost).
And end with the controversial Takeda Masanobu as current "Soke".
I'm wondering what others who have looked into the transmission line of Daito ryu think of this formula from the Abashiri group as compared to Pranin's version or other lists? Any opinions?
One thing catches my eye: The Abashiri group says that the art (and all of Koryu!) can only be transmitted through blood successorship. Was Takeda Soemon of the same blood as the Takeda Shingen line? There was at least two centuries of records that do not make this clear. Takeda Tokimune S. said he had viewed the family documents held at Ise Jingu, but they are not available to the public eyes and he was not clear about the contents (in his interview).
The Abashiri group lists Takeda Masanobu as the "37th Soke", which is
funny because I only see 30 names listed. Is it reasonable to count empty spaces?
I only count 22 names in Mr. Pranin's version (excluding Kondo S.).
05-08-2001, 06:51 PM
Following is the Daito ryu lineage as listed in Mr. Pranin's book "Daito ryu Aikijujutsu"; Aiki News. I understand this chart may have originally been passed on by Takeda Tokimune sensei:
-Minamoto no Tsunemoto
-[Minamoto no] Mitsunaka
-[Minamoto no] Yorinobu
-[Minamoto no] Yoriyoshi/ Yoshimitsu
-(six generations skipped)
-(four generations skipped)
-[Takeda] Shingen [the famous general. NS]
-(four generations skipped)
-Kondo Katsuyuki [current "caretaker". NS]
<font size=2>This chart has also been scanned and published on the daito-ryu.org web page (Kondo Sensei's page):
Also, on pg. 22 of the Daito ryu book, there is a footnote that references the chart shown here:
It should be noted that the lineage recorded in Sokaku's scrolls does not include the name Chikanori Hoshina [Saigo Tanamo. NS], although it does appear in lineages published during Tokimune Takeda's headmastership. Only Takeda family members up through Soemon Takeda [Sokaku's grandfather.NS] are mentioned. Interestingly enough, the name of Sokaku's father, Sokichi, is also omitted. Sokaku's lineage chart is listed in a post below.
<font size=2>The chart shown above and published in the Daito ryu book includes Sokichi, but excludes Chikanori Hoshina (Saigo Tanamo).
I suppose that means that, at least publicly, Sokaku S. did not want to credit Saigo or his father for his Daito ryu transmission, implying that he was trained by his grandfather (which is unlikely). Or, in the event that Sokaku S. was in fact trained by Saigo, he might have simply wished to leave the transmission line as it would be recorded historically in the Takeda family rather than introduce a generation of "outside blood".
Tokimune S. version of the lineage does credit Saigo Tanamo as being the person to train Sokaku S. It's quite interesting that Tokimune S. thought to alter the lineage "credits" - what did he know that he didn't say?
05-09-2001, 09:49 AM
I’m sorry, but the “blood” transmission is just so much Bull do (or jutsu if you prefer) in my opinion.
The other thing is the lack of support for the lineage before Sokaku.
One idea (not sure, but may have come from Angier sensei) is that what became Daito ryu was a school of strategy and court manners that became, in Sokaku’s hands, a martial art. I would assume that it is really hard to trace with the name change and once again the SAD show no sign of discretion in their claims.
Claiming that stewardship of a ryu-ha can only come through blood lines is clearly not true. Through out the history of Japanese Sword arts we see examples of a current headmaster appointing or stipulating who his successor would be. Sometimes it has been a blood relation, but often has been a senior student who has innovated the art.
This is clearly a contentious issue within Japanese culture that causes consternation even today (eg. in Aikido, Tohei leaving Aikikai over dissagreements with Kisshomaru). Given the often political nature of Japanese discourse the notion that blood lines alone would dictate control of a business or "clan" organization should be discarded.
01-17-2003, 06:46 PM
Agreed. I've been noticing a pattern in which arts that follow family transmission seem to have alternating strong and weak headmasters. The strong headmaster is overly strict with their son to the point in which the son doesn't want to be involved. But after the son has their own child, the strict headmaster has gotten older and softer, and puts all their hopes in the grandchild, being careful not to blow it again. One example of this is Kuroda Tetsuzan, who says his father wasn't interested in training, but that he learned from his grandfather, who was well known.
Blood transmission is clearly not in the best interest of the art, but if you consider that it in many cases they are "family" owned/developed arts, I guess they can do what they want with them - for better or for worse. It does explain all the split-offs though. Japanese have always been concerned with their lineage and leaving a legacy, so it is not surprising to see the emphasis on family transmission in many arts.
Anyway, I came across a couple of other interesting things recently.
There is was a Tomiki Aikido book published in 1978 that is pretty interesting, titled "Tomiki Aikido - Randori & Koryu no Kata", by Dr. Lee Ah Loi. The kata represent an older approach to aikido, which is gratifying to see. Some of it is similar to what we do in the Aiki Buken. Anyway, on page 3 there is a "brief history" that says:
Daito ryu Aiki Ju-jitsu was passed down by one of Lord Aizu's samurai to the Takeda family and Professor Morihei Uyeshiba learnt this from the seventh generation of this family, Mr. S. Takeda.
The samurai of Aizu surely refers to Saigo. I don't know where Dr. Loi gets her information, but it is interesting that she sites only 7 generations in Daito ryu.
Also, I came across a Japanese reference by a Daito ryu line that listed Takeda Sokaku as the 15th generation of the art. Interestingly, the line reached all the way back to Emperor Seiwa, but allowed for huge gaps in succession.
Furthermore, the post card issued (possibly) by Takeda Munekiyo to Sagawa Sensei stating that he was to become the "36th Soke" implies that Sokaku was either the 34th or 35th, depending on whether or not Munekiyo was counting his younger brother Tokimune as the current headmaster or not (by the phrasing of the text, it looks as though they considered Sokaku to be the last headmaster). The ex-Daitokan group(s) also name Sokaku as the 35th headmaster, so it could be that these two references borrow the same lineage claims.
04-29-2003, 07:41 PM
Following is a third lineage chart that is shown on Kondo Katsuyuki's new DVD "Daito ryu Aikijujutsu".
This chart was apparently written by/for "Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Somucho, Takeda Sokaku Minamoto Masayoshi" (Sokaku's full name and title, including hanko stamps), and is quite different from the other lineages posted here.
It does not include Takeda Shingen, for example. It is said that Ippon Dori (similar to kogusoku in Ono-ha Itto ryu) was a secret technique of Takeda Shingen, and that it was passed down through the family line into Daito ryu, but it would seem that Sokaku did not feel Shingen had an important involvement with the continuation of the DR methods, even if this is true.
Interestingly, Stan Pranin and Kondo Katsuyuki S. included Takeda Shingen in the lineage chart in "Daito ryu Aikijujutsu - Converstations with Daito ryu Masters", as well as on Kondo Sensei's web site (linked above).
There are a total of 15 names included in this lineage. The numbers preceding them indicate the succession place these names are listed in according to Kondo/Pranin's version for reference (and yes, empty generation gaps are apparently counted):
1) - Emperor Seiwa
2) - Prince Sadazumi
3) - Minamoto no Tsunemoto
4) - Minamoto no Mitsunaka [aka: Michinaka]
5) - Minamoto no Yorinobu
6) - Minamoto no Yoriyoshi
7) - Minamoto no Yoshimitsu [aka: Shinra Saburo]
8) - Minamoto no Yoshikiyo [aka: Gyobu Saburo]
10) - Takeda Nobuyoshi [aka: Taro; Henmi Kaja]
11) - Takeda Nobumitsu
19) - Takeda Nobumitsu [different kanji]
25) - Takeda Nobushige
26) - Takeda Kunitsugu
33) - Takeda Soemon [Sokaku's grandfather]
35) - Takeda Sokaku Minamoto Masayoshi
By the way, the lineage chart has claimed by the Abashiri dojo (Nihon Daito ryu Aikibudo Daitokai) at daito-ryu.com (linked in the first post) has changed since I first posted it above! Who knows?
12-19-2005, 08:59 PM
On page 93 of Kimura Tatsuo Sensei's new book "Discovering Aiki - My 20 Years with Yukiyoshi Sagawa Sensei", there is a photograph of the last part of a Hiden Mokuroku scroll, awarded to Kimura Sensei by Sagawa Sensei, showing the last part of the keizu. Interestingly, it does not follow the transmission line as passed down in scrolls issued by Takeda Sokaku:
The names read from right to left:
- Takeda Nobuyoshi
- Takeda Nobumitsu [I]
- Takeda Nobumitsu [II]
- Takeda Nobushige
- Takeda Kunitsugu
- Takeda Takumi no Kami (Aka: Takeda Soemon)
- Hoshina Chikanori (Aka: Saigo Tanamo)
- Takeda Sokaku Minamoto Masayoshi
Hoshina is listed as a disciple (monjin) of Takeda Soemon. I highlighted his name in red on the above scan.
Takeda Sokaku is listed as the Daito-ryu Chuko-no-So (revivor) and grandson of Takeda Takumi no Kami (Takeda Soemon).
Sagawa Sensei signs the scroll using the title "Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu SoHonbu-cho".
Sokaku's documents claim to pass the art from his grandfather directly to him, while this document from Sagawa Sensei shows Sokaku's grandfather having taught Saigo, and then Saigo primarily passing the art on to Sokaku. Interesting stuff.
12-20-2005, 03:28 AM
Dear Mr. Scott,
As you may have read in another post, we're preparing a book which will contain a great deal of material, most of which previously unreleased and written by Takeda Tokimune Soke himself. Among the documents, there is also a lineage chart written by him, I'll see if I can attain permission to post it here before the publishing of the book.
Some parts of www.daito-ryu.com are indeed not 100% accurate, but we'll modify and correct the differences as soon as the translation arrives. The translator has all the papers since 2 of december, and told us not to expect she finishes her work until February, but maybe the lineage she will give me earlier, since it's among the first documents.
Regards and happy holydays,
12-21-2005, 01:52 PM
Sounds great. I'll be interested to see the lineage and forthcoming book.
Happy holidays back at ya,
02-02-2006, 09:43 AM
Dear Nathan Scott and dear Posters,
As I promised earlier, I will now post the genealogic tree Takeda Tokimune Soke himself wrote and that I just received from the translator.
As I mentioned also in some other post, we are preparing a comprehensive book about Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu that will contain a great deal of never before published material written directly by the last Soke that we acquired from his senior students and leaders of our association and from many of the Daito-ryu newsletters Takeda Sensei published in Japan, that we all possess. Among this material there is the complete story of Daito-ryu since its origins, and various articles about principle and technique.
There is also the following genealogic tree, about which, though, I have to make a clarification. It is plainly WRONG to use the Takeda line genealogic tree as a line ALSO for Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, because, while most of the people in the line were also the inheritor of the art, not all of them were, and some who inherited the art at certain points and were outside the Takeda family but inside the Aizu clan are omitted. This line, which I understand is substantially the same as the one presented in many books, is described in written form by Takeda Tokimune himself in our documents as the TAKEDA FAMILY genealogic tree and NOT the Daito-ryu inheritor tree. This is confirmed also in Takeda Sensei's history of the Daito-ryu, since he plainly states that Takeda Souemon taught Daito-ryu both to Tanomo Saigo and his son Sokichi, and Takeda Sokaku learned some basics from his father, but received the final training in Daitoryu and Oshikiuchi (which in his vision is a set of techniques and etiquette used by the bodyguards inside the palace) from Tanomo Saigo, who is NOT at all present in the family tree presented. This is the same as for Hoshina Masayuki that for Takeda Sensei (as you will read in our book) was the one to reorganize the previous art in Oshikiuchi and trasmit it, and that is also not present in the genealogic tree.
Having said this, which I sincerely hope you will find as rational as logic as I find (mostly even because it is plainly written by the Soke himself), you will of course understand how foolish it is for certain people not members of the Takeda families, of adding their names after Takeda Tokimune's name. It is my understanding that there is NO Daito-ryu proper genealogic tree, but only a Takeda family's tree, which is different, and which led also us to see it is actually wrong to write, as we did, to count the people in the presented tree as "soke"s of the School.
The Takeda family line as presented by Takeda Tokimune Soke:
Minamoto Tsunemoto (or Keiki)
six names unknown
four names unknown
four names unknown
I believe a Daito-ryu proper line can be to a certain extent reconstructed based on this family line and the degree of relatives of the Hoshina and Saigo families Takeda Tokimune Senseis describes in a deep way (sometimes too deep!) in the written history of the school. You will find both this reconstructed Daito-ryu proper lineage and all the written story of Daito-ryu by Takeda sensei (with added detail and explaining) in our book when it will be finished. I really hope we can publish it by summer, even in english.
Best regards to you all,
02-02-2006, 02:04 PM
Giacomo Merello, thanks for the info.
Will this book be available in the US? What will the title be so that we can all keep an eye out for it?
02-02-2006, 03:26 PM
Yes, it will be available worldwide, as soon as we agree with our editor we'll begin searching for a distributor (maybe an online reseller).
We haven't chosen a title yet, but it will be very simple, like "Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu" or "Introduction to Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu". It won't be an instructional book like "A to Z" or other "real Daitoryu secrets" papers, even though it will show some techniques taken from all over the curriculum; the historical, technical (in a sense of principles, and differences from Aikido, for instance) part will be the point, a book about Daito-ryu and not to teach Daito-ryu, or to sell to do-it-yourself people.
02-02-2006, 08:22 PM
Sounds good. I'll have to pick up a copy.
02-02-2006, 09:22 PM
Interesting geneology. I agree with you about some of what you are saying about transmission of the art that is not reflected in the lineage. I would note a couple of things though:
1) The lineage you show here is still different from the one that Takeda Sokaku used. I'm curious - why was there a different version on your internet page previously if it is supposed to be Tokimune's version of the lineage?
2) As far as the lineage being a Takeda family lineage only, this may be partially true, but the fact is the lineage is included in all of the levels of Daito-ryu densho. There is nothing on the Daito-ryu densho that indicates that the keizu that follows is a Takeda family lineage only, and it is common practice to include the name of the recipient on the lineage after the current headmaster.
02-03-2006, 04:14 AM
I agree with you about that. But nevertheless neither Hoshina Masanori nor Tanomo Saigo are included (because they're not family) while Takeda Tokimune in his history of Daitoryu (included in our book) credits the first with reorganizing and teaching the art and the second to have given the secrets and a sort of transmission scroll.
The lineage presented on the website was reconstructed by various sources, while the one presented here is the one directly written by the Soke (we have the japanese pages), so it is my belief we should deem this one the correct one, not the one on our website, that we will also correct as soon as possible. We received most of these documents (writings of Takeda Tokimune about history, technique, differences between modern and ancient arts, philosophical aspects etc. etc.) when we last went to Abashiri, while some others we have always had in the complete collection of all the newsletters the Soke published about Daito, but it's only recently we managed to gather the funds to translate and the right person to give the translation job too. It's a long and painful job, because she (a professional japanese translator living in Italy) doesn't practice any martial arts, so sometimes is in doubt about certain terms or names, but it's the only way. We wouldn't trust anyone else with the translation of this precious and mostly unique and unpublished material, as you may well understand.
Take also note that some differences in lineage trees can be traced to the fact that Japanese names, since written in Kanji, can be read in various ways, sometimes very different. Saigo Tanomo can be read Saigo Yorihaha, or Ueshiba Morihei, Morihira. So I guess some differences are only in the translation and not in the original.
We will include the original written in kanji by the soke in the book.
I hope anyway you appreciated me posting here as promised the lineage as soon as we had it translated.
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