Randori Competition! [Archive]

Steve Williams

11-26-2000, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Johan Frendin
But one of the major problems Shorinji Kempo is dealing with today is the that the art almost only attract "older" people. If we look on Shorinji Kempo globaly(not Japan and, Indonesia) most people that practice is 20+ and looking for "the filosofical side of the art". This is not wrong but Kaiso told us that Shorinji Kempos major goal was to attract young people, try to educate them and maybe change their hearts.
We must be honest to each other and ask the question? How can we attract young kids, specially teenagers, to come to our dojos and start Shorinji Kempo insted of going to a tae kwon do or kickboxing class.

I feel that Shorinji Kempo attracts people of all ages, here in the UK we have childrens classes (mine has more than 25 students, ages 6 to 14), we have a large number of university clubs, and even "normal" branches have a good age mix of kenshi.

I know that Pontus runs a very very large university club there in Sweden (Stockholm Studenta Branch), [over 100 kenshi if I remember correctly?]

I think that anyone who takes the trouble and makes the effort to attend a Shorinji Kempo class will generally stay to train, but those who want a "sport" orientated class will not stay.
This is not a problem, Shorinji Kempo is not for all, it is mainly for those who are seriously seeking an effective method of self defence, to this end many of the "older" kenshi who you talk about have often trained in other styles (some competition based) and then come to Shorinji Kempo because they want something more than competition and points fighting, at my branch we have 2 Karate dan grades and 1 Judo dan grade who now train in Shorinji Kempo for these very reasons.

Johan Frendin

11-27-2000, 12:10 AM

What I meant with randori competition is not to make Shorinji Kempo to a sport that stresses the students to compete.
What I want is to attract new members that never would end up in a Shorinji Kempo dojo in the first place. Young kids that maybe has problems i school and heading towards a wrong direction in life. In Sweden these kids don´t come to a Shorinji Kempo class.

In Sweden almost every student is "socially correct" and is already living "half for your self and half for others".

Why don´t we also try to attract this special group of potential members and try to influence them to change their lifes with the filosofi of Shorinji Kempo?

If we want them to come to our dojos we must have a new strategi. This strategi can be takais with Embu division and also a randori division. I believe that this could strenghten Shorinji Kempo as a educational organisation in society.

Best regards
Johan Frendin
Göteborg Branch
Sweden

George Hyde

11-27-2000, 07:44 AM

Wear black hoods, carry swords, perform spectacular demonstrations of brick and board breaking, give everyone a yellow belt within 3 weeks of joining and have LOTS of competitions…

Sorry. I realise that the above is overtly flippant, but I mean no disrespect. However since we're looking for easy ways of doing things, this was an easy way to demonstrate my point.

People take up MA for all sorts of reasons and exhibit all sorts of expectations. People attach importance to different elements of MA practice based on those expectations. When they find that 'we' do not place the same importance they have a choice: 1- strive to understand why, 2- go off and find another dojo where the practitioners agree with their original expectations.

A very promising young man came to my dojo recently. He'd had all kinds of experience with various disciplines. He was very keen and full of questions. He attended three or four sessions over the course of two weeks showing no sign of disappointment in what he found. Then one day, I saw him in the changing room donning a yellow belt. "That's a bit brave" I thought, and decided to have a word with him in the dojo. However, he wasn't going to my class, he was attending the shotokan class. I haven't seen him since.

On what basis the shotokan teacher decided he deserved a yellow belt I'll probably never know. I am however certain that if I were to hand out grades indiscriminately, thereby pandering to such superficial expectations, I'd find it much easier to attract and keep students. However, I'm equally certain that I wouldn't find anyone on this forum that would agree that this was an acceptable means to and end.

Making Shorinji Kempo more 'sport-like' would undoubtedly improve the attendance and recruiting figures. In addition the general lack of 'outside recognition' from official bodies (a point recently raised by Arai Sensei discussing the 'olympic' question) currently enjoyed by karate and judo would improve immensely. This is largely because sport is easier to understand, participate in and commit to.

In the case of my student above, he was no doubt pleased with his yellow belt, the teacher was surely pleased with the extra financial income and I have every confidence that they'll be very happy together. However, Shorinji Kempo makes much greater demands of its students AND teachers. What would be the point in having twice as many students if you have to give up half the teachings to get them?

Later,

Johan Frendin

11-27-2000, 09:02 AM

First. In Japan and Indonesia the have randoricompetition.
Who started the competitions in the first place - What i have heard - Kaiso.

My question was what you all think about randoricompetition?

Second. My idea about randoricompetition is the possibility to attract a new group of possible members, it has nothing to do about simlify it´s teaching.
I have been teaching Shorinji Kempo in Gothenburg Sweden for 10 years now and almost everybody that come to the dojo is universitystudents. How much demanding is it to teach higly intelectual students in kongo zen who all think the filosofi is ok? Is it not better to try to also attract people that really need the good social atmosphere in the dojo, the filosofy and the support of fellow students?

Best Regards
Johan Frendin
Gothenburg Branch Sweden

Steve Williams

11-27-2000, 03:34 PM

You both make good points.

To George: I don't think Johan was considering diluting the way we teach, or what we teach, he was just offering an opinion on a different way to teach (perhaps the weekends stress made you a bit confrontational :laugh: )

To Johan: I thought I answered your original question in my original post.
Yes I do think (have been told) that Kaiso originally started randori competitions.
Second, I seriously think that the addition of randori competition will not increase the membership, possibly if there was national or international competition it might, but to do this it would have to be highly publicised with great emphasis on the randori aspect, does this not then lose the Shorinji Kempo emphasis on self defence, philosophy and good technique, and shift the emphasis onto competition fighting.

Most of the people who attend the randori competitions in Japan (to watch) are people who already have a connection to Shorinji Kempo, either kenshi or family/ friends of kenshi, so you will not be "hitting" a new audience anyway.

It seems that the best way of getting new kenshi (of any age) is by demonstrations (lets face it, randori [unless done really well] does not make a good demonstration), and by word of mouth (i.e. my mate trained and suggested I come along). Therefore randori competition is not a good tool for attracting more kenshi.

Please re-read my first post as to my views on randori in the branch (it is important to "do" randori regularly).

Keep well :D

George Hyde

11-28-2000, 04:20 AM

perhaps the weekends stress made you a bit confrontational :laugh: )

That wasn't my intention - apologies if taken as such.
However, this is one thing (among many) that I feel strongly about. Here's a contribution I made in the Aikido forum on a similar point; the nature of 'martial qualities' and testing whether or not practice leads to practical skill...

Gil refers to "the old -jutsu vs -do dialog" but it shouldn't be totally avoided. In the simplest terms, bujutsu is about self defence/protection and budo is about self realisation/development. Dedication to a 'do' form is apt to make us question its 'jutsu' qualities because doing so is part of that self realisation. By way of an answer, the competitive element is usually suggested as a means to 'test' the justu credibility of the art/student. In reality, the only thing that competition can truly test is the discipline's competitive application, which usually has little or no resemblance to the discipline itself.

It is also important to make the distinction between competition and sport. The opportunity for mutually beneficial practice of a "competitive" nature should be encouraged in the dojo, but only for its random, fluid, spontaneous qualities. This approach is entirely in keeping with the 'do' elements of the discipline. Sport on the other hand is an entirely different matter. The objective of
sport is to create champions, break records, etc.. by definition, the participants are looking for recognition of themselves from others. The objective of 'do' is self-recognition.

As for the ultimate question... "Is what I'm doing REALLY going to help me defend myself?"... that is entirely a matter for the individual. Both competition and competitive practice can only simulate, not replicate a real combative situation. The performance of an individual in a fight or competition speaks only of the individual, not the discipline. So the question should be... "Is who I am, REALLY going to help me defend myself?"

IMHO, exclusive dedication to the 'do' form will provide the individual with the ability to attain realisation of self and others. If your objective is to be supremely confident, efficient and decisive in any given combative situation, a total realisation of self is a prerequisite.

Final note: If the objective of the discipline is to produce competition winners, then competition will test its ability to do so. If the objective is to provide the student with the opportunity to become a better person, this can be put to the test every day, without the need for judges.

In my experience, teams, tournaments and trophies turn what is an essential element of martial training, and therefore an essential element of michi, into a sporting activity. The two are mutually exclusive.

In SK we go to considerable lengths to emphasise the true meaning of budo by relying on the correct interpretation of 'bu' and highlighting its mistaken interpretations. A great deal more can be learned from an equally critical view of 'do'. Even when organised with the very best of intentions, competition panders to the ego. This contradicts 'do'.

Any student, regardless of their original motivations and opinions, who gains skill in a martial discipline will at some point crave the opportunity to test and prove that skill. The most valuable lesson to be learned is to be found in relinquishing that desire.

Later,

Johan Frendin

11-28-2000, 05:28 AM

These randoricompetitons I talk about should not led big trophies, special club teams etc.
What I want is to encourage the students to alongside with the Embu divsion also try to participate in the randori division in a takai. It´s my opinion that they should not take part in the randoridivision only but also the Embu division. I believe that this could increase the atraction of new potential members that comes and look at the taikai.

Our taikais in Sweden has a very friendly atmosphere and a don´t think that a randoricompetiton can change this.

Johan Frendin
Göteborg Branch, Sweden

George Hyde

11-28-2000, 07:59 AM

Johan, I understand your motivation and I realise that you have very good intentions. However, as I said previously, there are lots of ways that we could change what we do in order to attract more new students, in the same manner as some karate and judo organisations, which we should not do for obvious reasons. However, even assuming that randori competitions would help, conducting them in the 'spirit' of Shorinji Kempo is not as easy as you assume.

Whilst there will inevitably be exceptions, when two people find themselves in a 'ring', in front of an audience, witnessed by their friends and their branch master, wearing full 'protective' gear, it becomes a win or lose situation. Their training partner becomes an opponent. In such situations, the wellbeing and development of the other person is not a consideration. Suddenly people begin to think that ken-protectors (designed to protect the fist against the do) are actually boxing gloves that allow for full contact to jodan. Head-protectors (primarily designed to limit contact damage when falling to the floor) suddenly become capable of sustaining full contact keri-waza.

Steve will bare witness to the extremely disappointing scenes that have arisen in BSKF randori competitions in the past. A total lack of consideration between competing individuals has lead to serious injuries and contention over judging decisions has lead to embarrassing scenes of argument and protest. For some people, despite their high grade (or perhaps even because of it) the egotistical need to win (assisted by group pressure), overrides every other aspect of Shorinji Kempo philosophy. Of course, this may just be a BSKF thing, but I doubt it.

Randori features in every session in my dojo. As the instructor it is my foremost responsibility to ensure that everyone conducts him/herself in a manner that encourages mutual respect, co-operation and learning, thereby ensuring mutual safety. This is most important when dealing with beginners who have to acquire the necessary understanding that underpins Shorinji Kempo teachings. The unavoidable trappings of randori competitions undermine these teachings. People coming to Shorinji Kempo as a direct result of seeing randori competition, are likely to be motivated by a desire to compete in a tournament setting. On discovering the manner in which they SHOULD conduct themselves in competition, they will be ultimately disappointed or instead, simply chose to ignore the guidance.

Budo is supposed to be the contest between the practitioner and him/herself. Randori competition externalises this contest and ultimately distracts the practitioner from the true purpose of budo. We haven't seen a randori competition in the UK for some years now, but I suspect that despite past experience, we will see it again.

It is sad but true to say, that the only thing that history teaches us is that we do not learn from history.

Later,

PS: If any of you are wondering - yes, I do realise that much of my opinion is in stark contrast to that of Mizuno Sensei and one day I'll have to 'discuss' it with him. Now THAT'S a contest!

alexandertilly

11-28-2000, 09:42 AM

Dear Shorinji Kempo colleagues,

- the argument that competition is contradictory to the goal of Shorinji Kempo would also hit our embucompetitions. We try to beat other couples by performing better embus. And still You do not want to ban these competitions.

- so it must be the safety-aspect that worries You? Good protective gear, good rules, good judging and good manners are things that could prevent this.

- Many kenshi with little or no experience from randori competitions or of using their skills in reality will get very tensed in a competition situation. Not to mention how they would react in reality. This tension and fear would be reduced with experience, and hence reduce the risk of injuries since it would allow better control of the techniques and their fear. So what you describe as an argument against competing, I prefer to see as an argument for competitions; the level and experience of Shorinji Kempo kenshis randori and of real situations is generally small, and this is shown by the way they react in competitions. It can be more dangerous to pretend to be able to defend oneself and to avoid confrontations with ones beliefs, than to try to gain some kind of realistic experience.

- if You practise something 2-3 times per week it is impossible to become any good at it, no matter what it happens to be You practise.

- the argument that competition is very different from reality is true. But the same could be said about hokei practise and any other form of practise. We must remember that any form of practise but real self defense is different from reality, and focus on how we can develop our ability in self defense by these forms of practise. The essential benefit with randori practise is that it allows us to develop approprate reaction patterns to UNKNOWN attacks, and this aspect is a lot like reality.

- the uncertainty of the attacks stresses us more than hokei, and this another important similarity to reality, believe me, I have worked as a bodyguard and as a bouncer for several years, and reality is very, very different from the dojo.

- randori competitions could attract young people who are not attracted by the philosophy of Kongo Zen. If we want to change society we contribute more to this by changing people on the wrong way, with no initial interest in personal dvelopment. These people are attracted by strength and power, so we use this to gain there respect. Then we can gradually make them understand what life is really about.

I look forward to hear Your response,

best regards,

Alex Tilly,

Shorinji Kempo Stockholm Södra,

Sweden

Gary Dolce

11-28-2000, 11:03 AM

I strongly agree with George's excellant summary of the arguments against randori competitions. Non-competitive randori is an essential part of regular practice. But competitive randori brings out the worst in people, both in terms of attitude and technique.

What's the difference? In competitive randori, your only goal is to beat the other person. In non-competitive randori, you can continue the focus on mutual improvement that is fundamental to our practice. To put it in more practical terms: In competitive practice, if I realize that my opponent makes a consistent mistake that makes him vulnerable, I take advantage of it and hope that he never fixes the problem. In non-competitive randori, I have nothing to gain by beating my partner repeatedly and everything to gain by helping him to correct the problem. As a result of helping him, he becomes a better practice partner and my own skills can improve.

I have seen only one SK randori competition and was appalled by what I saw - bad attitudes and bad technique. Good protective gear, good rules, and good judging were in place but they did't overcome the negatives.

I find the issue of bad technique during randori to be almost as much of a concern as bad attitude. Randori is the application of hokei, not some completely separate kind of practice. When we practice randori (non-competitively!) during class, I expect people to actually use the techniques that we regularly practice, not to start randomly striking at each other. In the randori competition I saw, out of dozens of attacks and counter-attacks, I saw only two cases where I saw the defender execute a recognizable basic defensive technique. Of course, this can be a problem in non-competitive practice too.

I don't see any major inconsistency with embu competition. Embu practice focuses completely on mutual improvement - to get good at embu, you and your partner have to work very hard together to improve as individuals and as a pair. This should foster a very different attitude than competitive randori. But I think as teachers, we still need to take care to emphasize that overly competitive attitudes can spoil any event, including an embukai. My personal preference would be to focus on embu as a demonstration of mutual skills rather than as a competitive event, but I don't think the competition creates major problems here.

As for some of the other arguments in favor of randori competitions, I think we can learn to deal with uncertainty of the attack in non-competitive randori just as well as we can in competitive randori - even better if we assume that in the non-competive situation, the partners feel free to help each other learn to recognize the attack sooner. It is true that competitive situations develop a different level of stress than non-competitive ones. But I still believe that the negatives that are associated with dealing with that kind of stress (i.e., the way it changes peoples attitudes) outweigh the positives.

I understand the argument that randori could be a way of attracting new people to SK - not for the reason that we should do everything we can to get as many members as possible, but that we do tend to self-select for people who are already receptive to our philosophy and not necessarily the people who need it the most. On the other hand, I have dealt with a number of overly competitive jerks over the years and seen how miserable thay can make practice for everyone who has to work with them. In the end, I would rather not change the attitude of practice just to accomodate them.

It is interesting that this whole issue has been a long-standing subject of tension and debate in the SK world. We aren't the first to have this discussion - I know teachers who were involved in this same debate many years ago in Japan concerning randori competitions between university clubs.

Steve Williams

11-28-2000, 12:06 PM

Hi Alex, good to see you here :wave:

Just a couple of points:
"- the argument that competition is contradictory to the goal of Shorinji Kempo would also hit our embucompetitions. We try to beat other couples by performing better embus. And still You do not want to ban these competitions."
The whole point of embu is to develop good technique and the mutual development of the embu partners, ok when we compete we try to win, but we are winning as a team by good technique, not by beating your opponent to a pulp.

"- so it must be the safety-aspect that worries You? Good protective gear, good rules, good judging and good manners are things that could prevent this."
Have to agree with your statement here, but George raises a good point dealing with this also.

"- Many kenshi with little or no experience from randori competitions or of using their skills in reality will get very tensed in a competition situation. Not to mention how they would react in reality. This tension and fear would be reduced with experience, and hence reduce the risk of injuries since it would allow better control of the techniques and their fear. So what you describe as an argument against competing, I prefer to see as an argument for competitions; the level and experience of Shorinji Kempo kenshis randori and of real situations is generally small, and this is shown by the way they react in competitions. It can be more dangerous to pretend to be able to defend oneself and to avoid confrontations with ones beliefs, than to try to gain some kind of realistic experience"
Totally agree, but it does not have to be competition that reduces/ eliminates that tension. Randori regularly in the branch will have a similar effect, as long as you are not always training with the same partner.

"- if You practise something 2-3 times per week it is impossible to become any good at it, no matter what it happens to be You practise."
Sorry have to totally disagree with this one, you will become better at anything you do so long as you practice, obviously the more you practice the quicker you will become good, as an example: many people go skiing (myself included), for only 1 or 2 weeks a year, after a few years (about 3 or 4 weeks worth) they will be extremely competant skiers, I would ski most black runs with only slight difficulty (dont like moguls :nono: )you should see my wife---no fear on any runs :smokin: (well she has a few "skiing years" on me...)

"- the argument that competition is very different from reality is true. But the same could be said about hokei practise and any other form of practise. We must remember that any form of practise but real self defense is different from reality, and focus on how we can develop our ability in self defense by these forms of practise. The essential benefit with randori practise is that it allows us to develop approprate reaction patterns to UNKNOWN attacks, and this aspect is a lot like reality"
Have to agree with this as well, but again this does not have to mean competition, the best practice is to insult people outside the pub on a Saturday night :redhot:

"believe me, I have worked as a bodyguard and as a bouncer for several years, and reality is very, very different from the dojo."
Always thought you were a bit of a nutter :laugh: Yes reallity is a whole new experience from the "sterilised" dojo atmosphere, but we train to try to make it as real as possible.

"- randori competitions could attract young people who are not attracted by the philosophy of Kongo Zen. If we want to change society we contribute more to this by changing people on the wrong way, with no initial interest in personal dvelopment. These people are attracted by strength and power, so we use this to gain there respect. Then we can gradually make them understand what life is really about."
Agree with this, and have seen it happen, but the difficulty would be making them watch a randori competition in the first place, without advertising it in such a way that it would seem that we are another "sport Karate" outfit.

Finally as George and Gary said: "I have seen ........SK randori competition and was appalled by what I saw - bad attitudes and bad technique. Good protective gear, good rules, and good judging were in place but they did't overcome the negatives."
I was not really appalled, (I took part in a few, and was as guilty as others of the "ego high"), but there were injuries (as George said) which were really un-needed, and could have been prevented by a little control.

Controlled agression is a very important part of Martial art training, it is when there is a total lack of control that people get hurt unnecessarily.

p.s. Alex, you still want that jacket, e-mail me your address....

alexandertilly

11-28-2000, 03:44 PM

Hello again,

- we practise competitive randori in our branch, and have branch competitions, and it has made us develop randori practise a lot. Contrary to the fear that it would result in egoistic concerns and unwillingness to aid eachother with feed-back, randori practise becomes more focused and fun. We have developed ways of learning how to use basic techniques during stress, about tactics, about which techniques really works, and to cope with stress. Most important we have improved the ability to rely on patterns of reactions and reflexes that are appropriate to fullspeed, unknown attacks. It reveals each and everybodys weak spots, and we discuss every match together and try to learn from it. We had many doubts before we started this experiment, but with experience from judo and boxing and other competitive martial arts, we have made it work together, and it improves our techniques in many ways. Maybe this ideal situation is more difficult to attain in a larger scale, I don´t think it would be impossible.

- If the competitions You watched looked bad, but the kenshis could use good techniques during pracise of randori, doesn´t this show that the fact that it was competition actually destroyed their techniques. Isn´t it plausible that this was due to lack of experience to cope with large amounts of stress? Or to much emphasis on wanting to win, or fear of losing? All this will occur in a real situation. That is why we need similar experiences.

- The goal of randori competition would not be to beat Your oppnonet to a pulp Steve, but to learn if You can use them in a more than usual realistic situation. We practise three rounds, kosha-shusha, shusha-kosha, and the third round free randori. Good techiques work, and bad don´t. Speed, timing and an empty relaxed mind that allow You to react intuitively work. This state of mind is best trained during randori, and most efficiently during competition. I have many friends who are top level martial artists with lots of competitive experience, they have the ability to react appropriately in a street fight. Arai sensei, Yamasaki sensei and Aosaka sensei were successful in randori competitions, and that gave them valuable experiences.

- That something hasn´t worked in the past is not a good argument that it will not work in the future. The rules can be adjusted, rules that punishes bad behaviour. We use rules that punishes all signs of misbehaving. Not doing gassho rei, turning ones back to the opponent after a strike, arguing with the judge, etc. It is just a matter of learning to control ones immediate impulses. In the beginning we had problems, now everybody behaves well and we have no injuries. A lot of the responsibility is also on the judges.

- OK, Steve You can become fairly good at something by practising 2-3 times a month, but not excellent.

- Insulting people outside the pub (or getting insulted..)cannot be included in practise, but competitive experience would improve Your chances on a Saturday night...

- My point wasn´t mainly that the audience of the competitions would join us, but that the fact that we would have competitions, as a goal in training, alongside embu and gradings, and the fact that we would have greater skills in randori then, could attract young people that we don´t attract today.

As little as You, I wan´t to see the possible bad effects of competitions in randori. But I think, contrary to some of You, that it is an obstacle possible to overcome.

Best regards,

Alex Tilly,
Shorinji Kempo Stockholm Södra
Sweden

P.S. Steve, nice little figures in your text, trying to draw attention from your arguments?
My adress is,

Alexander Tilly
Skolvägen 4
121 32 Enskededalen
Sweden

alexandertilly@hotmail.com

let me know what you your accountnumber so I can pay for the jacket, or let med know what you want from Sweden and I´ll send it ti you. D.S

Steve Williams

11-28-2000, 05:11 PM

Hey Alex, lots of good arguements :D

The figures are just to make things a little less heated...If they draw attention from the arguement then apologies.

Perhaps you could let us have some of the ideas you use in your branch, if it works for you then it will probably work for us. Contrary to what has been said previously, I would like to use randori more but have been "tarnished" by previous bad experiences.

When I was at Hombu in April they used a new scoring idea for randori (groups of 4 people, 2 fighting, 1 judge, 1 assistant judge who also scored, it was set up so that these roles kept changing so everybody "fought" everybody else in that group), this worked really well, and gave good feedback for those taking part.
I have used this idea ("borrowed" some scoresheets) and it works really well in my branch for practice, I dont think it will be effective on a larger scale, but if it is adapted it might...

Sorry for the "beating to a pulp" and "saturday night pub fight" comments, they were extreme (but they got your attention :up: )

You said "We had many doubts before we started this experiment, but with experience from judo and boxing and other competitive martial arts, we have made it work together, and it improves our techniques in many ways"
The doubts you had then may be similar to the doubts many of us have now?
But as I said, if it works for you, then it may work for us :smilejapa (sorry there is another of those figures)

p.s. will sort out the jacket, probably be after Christmas now due to the Christmas post.....
BTW my e-mail stevecw@freeuk.com

Gary Dolce

11-28-2000, 05:52 PM

Alex,

I think the key problem may be in your statement that the kind of attitude they have in their Branch may be harder to replicate on a larger scale. Within a Branch, everyone knows each other and everyone knows they have to get along after the fight is over. When different Branches get together for a randori competition, people are more likely to see the event as "us" against "them".

I am glad that randori competitions within your Branch work for you. Is that feeling universal? Can you say that there are no problems with excessive ego as a result?

I can't speak for the Arai, Yamasaki, or Aosaka Senseis since I have never discussed with them their views on randori. I have spoken to other instructors who I respect who are strongly against it.

I still see no real reason to practice randori competitively either within the Branch or outside of it. To me the negatives outweigh any positives that may come out of it. I am glad that you see the negatives as obstacles to be overcome. But I still fail to see why competition is a such a necessary part of your practice.

migjohns

11-28-2000, 07:34 PM

Great discussion you guys have going on here...

I personally agree with those who feel that "competitive" randori has no place in Shorinji Kempo. However, randori is an important part of our art, and finding a way to integrate it in a safe and beneficial way can really add to the quality of a taikai.

In a few taikai in Japan I've enjoyed participating in, and watching, what was called "participant/demonstration randori". Basically it was taikai participants (following their embu competetition) doing randori as is done in testing situations (in protectors/with designated offense & defense) with a shinpan overlooking matches of 2 to 3 minutes. The matches were of course stopped for warnings, accurate atemi and to cool down those who got too excited. Following the time limit, participants sat down, and no winner was announced. After the matches, the sensei/shimpan and kenshi gathered for a mini study session on the positive and negatives of our randori technique. The sensei also took the opportunity explain the purpose and scope of randori training within Shoringi Kempo. This was followed up by "children's randori" where kids tried to pop baloons taped to each others dos (which had everyone in the gymnasium smiling and laughing). It was a great way to end a taikai.

Overall, I really liked this format, and recommend it as a good way to include randori "in the true spirit of Shoringi Kempo" into a taikai.

Best Regards,
Mike Johnson
Inuyama Kita Shibu

[Edited by migjohns on 11-29-2000 at 12:57 AM]

Boris

11-29-2000, 08:32 AM

Hi guys,
I'm also enjoying this thread. I have to agree with the folks that are against Randori even though my undisciplined side is attracted to it. It was this part of me that accepted an invitation to a Karate tournament in Japan a while back. I'm interested in Martial Arts, studied Karate when I was younger, and thought it would be a good chance to compare to Shorinji Kempo that I love. I have to say that it was a very important event in my Budo education.

This tournament was your typical K1 style, to begin with. All was acceptable, baring punching to the head, or grapples. So, first of all, my impression was how inaccurate this was of a real self-defense situation. Imagine the weaknesses in your training here!

I also noticed that the "competitors" basically "hammered" on one another trying to score as many hits in the alloted time. No attention paid to Atemi. This was very unentertaining(no flames on this please!) and actually became downright ridiculous to watch! Some seemed to be drunk from exhaustion as they greedly tried to consume more points. You can see what I'm getting at here. A total lack of discipline in their art, over pursuit of victory. It even appeared as though they didn't see fellow human beings in front of them, just a punching bag that they practised on in the Dojo. Many of them were Dan levels in Karate, but were fighting about the same as one would with no training! Blocks were abandoned over strikes and head kicks that would receive jeers and applause from the crowd.

I became increasinly uncomfortable at how different what I was watching was from Shorini Kempo's teachings...As is inevitable, injuries came next. Seeing contestants with bloodied mouths, cracked ribs and sprained knees was the final most obvious indicator that what they were pursuing was clearly of no purpose or value. Seeing worried wives, men who would miss work, and children in the crowd being exposed to it all made me contemplate. It was promoting a selfish perception and total disregard for others that started on a very tame and friendly level, but quickly eclipsed everything else. They had no respect for what they were "playing" with.

A good example of this was how a higher level competitor had a good edge on the other my striking his knee continually. The other finally was hobbleing(?) around not being much of a threat. It would seem reasonable to just take the odd shot to the torso and gobble the points to victory. The total disregard for another was most apparent when the stronger competitor felt it necessary to land a kick to the other's temple thereby guaranteeing his victory.

The sum of all this was a firm confidence and reassurance in what Shorinji Kempo promotes.

I tend to think that Randori competitions would tempt the undisciplined into a more subversive style of the above...
notice I said undisciplined. Perhaps at higher ranks, after Shorinji Kempo's philosophies are digested and adopted, it could be plausible.

Shaunessey Joudrey
Gambatte to all in their pursuit!

George Hyde

11-29-2000, 10:09 AM

Hi All,

Several points have been raised and I'll try to address them comprehensively without going over too much old ground.

RANDORI COMPETITION = EMBU COMPETITION: Largely answered by Gary. To clarify, randori competition demonstrates the participants' ability in overwhelming and defeating an opponent. In stark contrast, embu competition demonstrates their ability to co-operate. Embu competition is useful in that it provides something towards which one can focus one's efforts. The strict judging sets exacting standards which participants are required to meet and the competitive comparison with other pairs demonstrates how well they are doing whilst providing incentive to excel. Having said this, that incentive in itself is problematic - the recent BSKF tai kai resulted in a judging dispute that tarnished the event.

PROTECTIVE GEAR + RULES + GOOD JUDGING = GOOD RANDORI COMPETITION: I've yet to see a randori competition without these basic requirements and still remain to be convinced. I gave injuries, arguments and protests as examples of bad practice, but even when a competition passes without any of these negative elements, the end result is that somebody loses and somebody wins. Despite the best efforts of instructors to ensure that the looser doesn't become despondent and the winner doesn't bask in the glory of victory, this will inevitably be the case. Whilst the former may be a good learning opportunity, the latter is in direct contradiction of 'do'.

RANDORI = REALISTIC SELF DEFENCE TRAINING: I fully agree with Alex' assertion that dealing with stress, such as that experienced in a randori competition, is a productive lesson. However, let's not kid ourselves; the stress in a randori competition is in no way similar, to that experienced in a real life self defence situation. 'Live' situations have no protective gear, judges or rules. They are utterly devoid of any predictability whereas randori competitions are by comparison, entirely predictable. If one 'gets into trouble' in a randori competition, help is only a "yame" away. The stress in a randori competition stems from a fear of losing face, not losing life or limb. Any suggestion that the two are in anyway similar is at best mistaken and at worst, frankly irresponsible.

As far as Japan is concerned, I'm pretty sure that randori competition is almost entirely (if not totally) a university thing. Having spoken to a number of Japanese university students, I suspect that Kaiso's U-turn on his original teaching was brought about by university bodies bringing pressure to bare on SK clubs to represent the universities in competition. Imagine the life expectancy of a university football team in the UK if they unilaterally decided that they were only interested in self-development by pursuing the 'art' of football and decided not to participate in competitions. Whatever the reason, it wasn't worth the lives that were lost.

As for the competitive histories of senior instructors, I remember Mizuno Sensei explaining (with some embarrassment), that his randori success was largely due to tactics. His first move was to deliver a severe gedan-geri to fushi, thereby causing extreme pain and rendering his opponent entirely incapable of performing any technique with efficiency thereafter - not what you might call, considerate. In addition, we recently discovered that mild mannered Arai Sensei was widely known as "The Devil". These are two men for whom I have the deepest respect and I am encouraged by the fact that they are able to see the fault in their previously celebrated reputations.

My overall concern is this: As previously explained, whatever benefits you may attach to it in terms of recruitment potential or self-defence 'realism', competition contradicts budo. When we feel the natural desire to put what we have learned to the test, that simply tells us that we have yet to learn anything. Learning to relinquish that desire is an essential step on the path of michi and a far more valuable lesson than anything experienced in randori competition. Attaching superficial benefits to randori competition simply sanctions our desire to stray from the path and indulge ourselves in self-satisfaction.

Later,

alexandertilly

11-29-2000, 03:27 PM

Hello,

- Obviously we have different ideas of randori competitions and different experiences of such events. Everybody agrees that we should not have "bad" randori competitions. But some of us think that all randori competitions will necessarily be "bad" in the sense so vividly described before. Some of us, like myself, Johan (and Steve?) think that the benefits of randori competitions would be important and that we could avoid the bad sides of it.

- With this said I want to argue against the proposal that competition contradicts budo. There are many different ways to approach competition. For some it might be to beat weaker persons, to indulge in self-satisfaction or for pride. But this has no place in budo. Others compete as a way of self-development, using their oppnonents as aid in a battle against their own weaknesses and fears, and as a way to develop their spirit. This approach to competition does have a place in budo, as it is our own weaknesses we actually fight, and the opponent is the finger pointing at them, just like we point at their weaknesses. In this way we develop together with our opponents, just like in embu. So this approach resemles the mutual dvelopment in embu. The deeper meaning of competition is therefore coherent with the path of michi and an important tool for finding it.

- There is a principle in Mahayana buddism called "upaya kaushalya", skillful means. This principle says that sometimes boddisatvas can lie, deceive and even kill, if it leads to a greater end. So Doshin realised that nobody listened to his philosophical ideas when he tried to spread them in postwar Japan, so he incorporated his teachings in martial arts training. Self defense training attracted many young people who eventually understood the true meaning of Shorinji Kempo. Today we need to find what attracts the young people, because Shorinji Kempo is a very, very small martial art in the Western World, and if we want to make a difference in society we need to grow. If randori competitions attracts people, and I think so, then it could be a skillful mean to our end. Wearing black hoods and carrying swords could also be means, but I think much less skillful. If we are unable to adjust to the changing world, we will continue yo be a small martial art of little importance to society. If we accept that the conditions in Europe in the 22nd century is very different from Japan 20 years ago, we will be better prepared to preserve the essence of Shorinji Kempo, and to find ways of developing our movement today.

Later,

Alex

P.S. Steve, thanks. And I will send ideas of practising randori, juho and goho, excersises and lots of other stuff. But I need to translate it, and perhaps shorten it....D.S

dax

11-30-2000, 02:01 AM

Interesting randori-like discussion going on here. I like randori competitions, and I do see parallels with embu competition. Even though we work together with a partner during embu competition, we still want to win the competition (and I think that means beating other opponents).

I participated in the Zen Koku Tai Kai at Nippon Budokan last month and the embu competition was amazing, especially at the 3rd dan and above level. The same pair (a man and woman from Kyoto I think) had won that division the last couple of years, and before that another pair won that division the previous four years. Everyone was very excited about the competition and the two pairs actually tied on points, so the judges had to choose the winner (it was the man and woman pair). It was very exciting, competition is exciting to watch and participate in.

Through randori and embu competition we improve our techniques and our focus. I understand that competition is not for everyone. However, for me, the competition teaches me how to focus better and manage excitement in a stressful situation - I am speaking of both randori and embu competition. I know it is not as realistic as a street-fight scenario, but the added stress is more realistic than randori practice in the dojo.

There was an awesome randori demonstration at the zen koku tai kai, and it drew the biggest applause and the most interest judging from the audience. There were points and a winner was declared. If Hombu were so against randori competition, why would they feature it at the tai kai, and why would they highlight it on the new video?

Didn't So Doshin start teaching philosophy, and later add self-defense techniques to attract students? If competition can attract more students, then I think that it is great for Shorinji.

Peace

Dax

Boris

11-30-2000, 07:59 AM

Hi again,
I feel that it is very important to perceive Embu as being different from Randori. Dax mentioned that we perhaps are still being competitive in Embu, and therefore still trying to win or beat other pairs.

The notion of "wanting to win" is itself an alluring temptation that inherently includes the notion or possibility of failure. It is this "chance" factor that makes it so exciting and very similar to gambling! However, it is completely out of our control and there is definitely no guarantee of success. Different competitors can shine at different moments for reasons completely external to themselves! Nobody is 100% sure they will win.

However, by applying ourselves 100% to a task as Kaiso suggested as being so important, we are not focusing on "wanting to win", nor are we comparing ourselves to others. Our perception changes. We are only focused on being our best in relation to ourselves. The opposite notion of "not applying ourselves" exists, but we have COMPLETE control over that! It becomes a very reliable formula for happiness because we are ONLY depending on ourselves with no comparisons to others. It is much more difficult to be disappointed with ourselves, as well. We gave it our best! It is this perception that I feel all must strive to attain with "do". We can "win" withought winning! Perception is key. Of course, it's a life long battle...er michi.;)

I had the opportunity to experience this important philosophy by, yes, being disqualified from a Tai Kai! The fact that I was 2kyu made it that more enlightening. I was very excited to be involved in my first Tai Kai, and in Japan no less. I trained hard, as hard as I could then! I entered the judging area with my partner, and left after we had completed it. There had been some commotion before the demonstration, but I felt it was due to my name or such. I was high and wanted to win! When I found out we were disqualified because my Sensei had accidentally place us together even though we were 2 ranks apart(not allowed), I was crushed. My true desires came out. I was angry and a host of other emotions because I didn't have the chance. This was something completely out of my control but I was being affected by it so much. I had lost the gamble! I realised my errors in my perception that day. Winning had very little to do with being satisfied with myself. And I was! I gave it my best!

One more thing, if I may! He had understood the judges discussion so was deflated from the start. I hadn't. Our perceptions were in stark contrast. I gave it 100% as I thought everything was ok. It is because of this that I still gave 100% and was satisfied with myself. Had I understood the commotion, I WOULD HAVE TRULY BEEN DEFEATED! This event really contrasted two directions/perceptions for me within myself. However, Do is an ongoing process...

Shaunessey Joudrey
P.S. Thanks for allowing me to share my lesson!
sorry to stray slightly!:)

[Edited by Boris on 11-30-2000 at 09:03 AM]

Johan Frendin

12-01-2000, 02:15 AM

It´s very nice to follow the debate about randoricompetiton.

There is one more practical aspect of randori that not been discussed. If we start randoricompetition our students will increase their practice againsed these competition. All other applicationtechniques, such as defense againsed armed opponents and several opponents will then decrease.

Shorinji Kempo is selfdefence and the question is; Is it possible that we will misslead our students to believe that competition and selfdefence is the same thing?

Johan Frendin
Göteborg Branch
Sweden

Steve Williams

12-01-2000, 05:38 AM

Just another thought on the competition aspect:

Talking with a couple of ex-Karate guys about competition fighting, their view was along these lines.

Competition fighters generally (not applicable to all competition fighters) are very good and extremely fast at 2 or 3 techniques or combinations, and they use them ALL of the time, and because they are so good/ so quick at those combinations they often win.

Is this what we want to create? Our idea of a "well rounded" MA practicioner will be lost...

I would still like to see a randori competition work, but the more people I discuss the ideas with, the more obsticles I see, mind you this does encourage me to keep looking :look: perhaps one day.... :idea:

Steve Williams

12-01-2000, 03:51 PM

This is a picture of an early randori competition, taken at Hombu 1950.
http://www.shorinji-kempo.org/articles/img/third_sk_embu_taikai_1950.jpg

(apologies to Anders, pic "borrowed" from your site)

Edited the url of the pic, since I have made some changes on our webpage.
/Anders

[Edited by Anders Pettersson on 12-29-2000 at 11:59 AM]

Daniel Latham

12-02-2000, 01:30 PM

Hello everyone,

After reading this string it seems to me that randori competition is probably a bad idea. It does promote poor behavior and recklessness. My sensei did not have good things to say about his university randori competitions.

Aosaka-sensei and Yamasaki-sensei may have been successful competitors in the past. Do they compete now? I would probably not do well in freestyle sparring with an 18-year old. Why have an event that only people of a certain age would find fulfilling?

On the other hand, there might be a place for embu competition. Embu is judged on how well a technique is executed on a partner rather than "tagging" an opponent with a random atemi. The only way to win is through excellence of technique rather than aggression.

This string began with the question "How to attract young people to Shorinji Kempo?" If I knew, I would tell you. I do know that making ourselves more like the sport karate schools is not the answer. They have that market tied up. However, one teen age girl joined my branch specifically because I put the word "non-competitive" in a flyer I posted.

Dan Latham
South Oregon Branch
USA

Steve Williams

12-02-2000, 03:48 PM

Hi Daniel, and welcome.

Originally posted by Daniel Latham
However, one teen age girl joined my branch specifically because I put the word "non-competitive" in a flyer I posted.

I have also had a similar experience to this, some of the students seek the "non-competitive" arts for many reasons.
In my experience this is usually the older kenshi, or those who have trained in other styles, some just like to work at their own pace, others see training as a "life experience" (which it should be) and so don't seek the competition element, though will not back away if it is offered, they just take it or leave it (I like to think I fall into this group :D )

Keep well :shadowmas

Boris

12-03-2000, 07:04 AM

Hi all,
Just wanted to make a few more comments on this thread.
First, why the focus on Randori for attracting students? When I saw Embu for my first time, I thought it was real! So the illusion can exist without any harmful side effects. Also consider that Embu looks SO much better than randori ever could. I'm not saying that Embu is flashy, on the contrary(and necessarily so), but that we train to achieve speed, atemi, and other various skills and they are displayed well through Embu.

Also, I can see how Randori could attract students if it was restricted to those at high ranks. This would assure that the Kenshi have progressed through the philosophy and have already tried to contemplate what it is they're learning. So, new students would observe it and be attracted to Shorinji Kempo, but by the time they reached the rank to attempt it, would realise that it has little value, or would have the necessary respect for it. Isn't this really what Shorinji Kempo is all about? When we are faced with someone with a gun, the techniques mean nothing anyhow! Kaiso has actually tricked us all into progressively becoming more engaged with it's teachings!
I also wonder if this explains why Hombu does have Randori in its Taikai's and on its video...simply to attract and mislead in a positive way.

Any thoughts on this compromise?

Shaunessey Joudrey

dbruere

12-05-2000, 05:44 AM

Originally posted by Steve Williams

"believe me, I have worked as a bodyguard and as a bouncer for several years, and reality is very, very different from the dojo."

Always thought you were a bit of a nutter :laugh: Yes reallity is a whole new experience from the "sterilised" dojo atmosphere, but we train to try to make it as real as possible.

I'm going to disagree strongly with this one.
If we wanted to make it real we'd wear street clothes and shoes. We'd include crowded scenery (chairs, tables, people etc), impromptu weapons, a possibly uneven or slippery floor, and the 'attacker' would not always attack (at least, straight away).

I'm currently in Paris and had the interesting experience of two guys working together (one as 'guard') crudely attempt to pick my pocket. That he only got his hand in an empty one saved him from losing most of his teeth, and his tall skinny friend from broken ribs.

It is nothing like dojo self defence practice.

Gassho
Dirk

migjohns

12-05-2000, 07:06 PM

I took this topic into my dojo to ask former university kenshi about their experiences with "randori taikai" here in Japan. All of them said that while there were "randori taikai", that they were non-competititive (no overall winners were announced). They mentioned that things sometimes got a bit wild (with university rivalries, excitable univesity aged kenshi in full protection etc...), but that for the most part, these taikai adhered to the same style of randori done in testing.

This thread began with Johan's question about the competetive randori which he HEARD takes place in Japan. If it does take place here, I would like to hear the specifics of where and when (and please don't mention the demonstration randori performed by high ranking -- usually Hombu -- Sensei at the zenkoku taikais, that is something completely different). Looking forward to your responses.

Best regards,
Mike Johnson
Inuyama Kita Shibu

Thomas Fontaine

12-09-2000, 11:08 AM

From 1992 to 1997, while living in Shizuoka prefecture, I had the opportunity to attend several ken-taikai. There was usually a short Randori competition which took place after all the embu were finished. It was very good natured and, while it drew tremendous interest, particularly from the younger kenshi, it seemed to be considered a 'fun' activity and not to be taken terribly seriously- certainly the embu portion of the taikai was the 'main event'. This is not to say that those participating were not focused! It was taken quite seriously by the randori participants themselves.

From what I recall, only one representative per dojo was permitted. At Tenryu gawa doin, where I trained, Atsumi sensei would simply pick someone. He made a point of choosing different kenshi each year, unless the previous year's entrant had won, in which case he was given the opportunity to defend his title!
Those participating - from our dojo at least - were always nidan and above, and between the ages of about 20 - 35.

There were no women participating in randori that I saw, and there were no weight classes or levels at all. It was a straight single loss elimination draw, which continued until only one kenshi remained.

Fist protectors, groin protectors, dos, and full head gear (with the clear visor and padding all round) was used. The referees kept things quite under control.

That's it - Just thought I'd share my experiences with the forum.

Robert Liljeblad

12-12-2000, 08:46 AM

This was a very interesting thread to read!

One subject that I don’t really understand is "Why shall we be a big martial art?" Is that to be able to change the world according to Kaiso’s beliefs. I understand (or believe I do) what kind of world he wanted to build. But is it not more important to focus on how to get there. To the world Kaiso believed in, I don’t think we will by having radori competitions.

If we have; I think that the new target group of people will be the same as all other martial arts are trying to attract. And we will be in a more competitive environment (in a marketing perspective). I also think that we might loose some of the members that we have today because of competitions.

I believe in what Philip Kotler one said "Nichers are richer". I think Shorinji Kempo has is own niche being unique in many areas were not having randori competitions are one. If this change we will be more main stream among the other martial arts. I think that the issue for Shorinji Kempo should be to focus more on communicating to the world outside of martial artists what we stand for as of today and in that way attract new members.

This is what I truly believe,

Robert Persson

Cailey Barker

12-13-2000, 06:24 AM

This has been a long discussion....hopefully I can shed some more light.
Randori competition is practised in Japan. I know at about 5 prefectures that do it. Ehime-ken and Fukuoka-ken to name two. The one in Ehime-ken had weight divisions, attacks only to chudan and open to any kenshi. My impression was that it was quite violent (although safe), contradictory to most practise of Shorinji, and....very good fun. Other countries do it or have done it, including the U.K. (I'm in the process of organising a randori competition for next year).

To be honest, I think this is the majority of people's views. Whether people think its necessary or not, they enjoy it in one form of another (competitive, light, free or fixed). Even if they don't enjoy it, it is an integral part of Shorinji Kempo. In my opinion, it is up to the branch masters to provide randori to their kenshi based on their preferences and requirements. Each dojo has their own emphasis of randori...and this is fine, but it should be practicised.

There are many to practice. here's some examples:
3 speeds (slow, medium & light, normal speed & power)
free (attack & defence both sides)
1 attacker, 1 defender
2 on 1
fixed e.g. kicks vs. punches; close/far distance etc.
technical...

The technical one is the one I use most. It bridges the gap between practising a technique and using it in a self defence situation (gi, jutsu, ryaku)
Stage 1 - practise, checking 5 elements of atemi
Stage 2 - full speed & power as grading/embu
Stage 3 - gentai randori (only the technique but at any time and from either side)
Stage 4 - jyu randori (free but with the technique mixed in...defender has to try and spot the oppotunity)
Stage 5 - self defence - from normal standing and attacker provides a street situation

The actual technique used can be one (e.g. uchi uke zuki) or a few similar ones (e.g. attack: gyaku zuki jodan; defence: uchi uke zuki (ura/omote); Soto uke zuki (ura/omote); Uwa uke geri (ura/omote)

This way of practise makes enjoyable randori and gives kenshi a chance to become proficient and confident of using their techniques in a variety of situations. It also helps to prevent the common "cock-fighting randori" (all attacks and no technique) that a lot of people do when they are under pressure. I have taught and practiced many styles of randori and find that each club has its own emphasis and preference.

In summary: Randori IS part of Shorinji Kempo. It is not the main emphasis but is necessary to improve proficiency in self-defence. Find a means to practise it which is both enjoyable and beneficial to the kenshi.
The end result is fun training and a technical improvement. If its not, then keep changing the emphasis until it is.

Hope this helps.

John McCulloch

12-13-2000, 02:28 PM

Gassho,

The original idea behind this thread was to evaluate whether an increased emphasis on competitive randori would make Shorinji Kempo more appealing to young people.

According to a Hombu report entitled "Randori as a means of practicing Hokei" released in the early 1980s (I think), Hombu's viewpoint is that the purpose of randori is to allow kenshi to experience the challenge of applying technique in an unpredictable environment. The assumption, however, is that kenshi know techniques to apply - otherwise what will result?

I have trained in Shorinji Kempo dojos with a variety of viewpoints regarding randori, from (at the extremes) no randori at all to a Kyokushinkai-like, full contact style of free randori. Given Hombu's viewpoint and having seen a variety of randori approaches, my feeling is that randori is a vital aspect of training but first it is necessary to create a sound technical base. Indeed, Cailey's comments re. learning Hokei, applying it in ura/omote form and trying to then use it in free randori is a good way to learn randori. At our Branch we attempt to teach randori in a stepwise manner by focussing on specific aspects and then trying to use them against free attacks.

As for randori competition, it is questionable whether it is really consistent with our philosophy. Unlike embu, there is an impression that someone "defeated" another in randori competition. If someone wishes to become a randori competition specialist he/she would inevitably measure themselves in terms of wins and losses. Is that what we are about? If a Branch were known as being strong in randori would there be pressure to over-emphasize competitive randori in general practice?

The experience at our Branch is that majority of beginners are drawn to Shorinji Kempo precisely because it is different to the more competitive arts. They are also drawn by the philosophical aspects and emphasis on cooperation. My belief is that we will continue to attract people to Shorinji Kempo and strengthen the art by actually DOING Shorinji Kempo and not trying to turn it into something else. After all, how many of us can honestly state that we have firmly mastered all kihon movements, all our curriculum hokei, Kongo Zen philosophy, zazen, embu, kata, randori (goho and juho), and seiho (all types). And if you've managed that, what things do you do to help your local community?

I'd like to echo the earlier comment that embu performed well is impressive. If we wish to attract people with something that truly is representative of our art, perhaps that would be a good place to start. Randori is a vital part of Shorinji Kempo, but an emphasis on competition is going too far in my opinion.

Kesshu,

migjohns

12-14-2000, 12:21 AM

Thank you Thomas and John for sharing your experiences with randori competition in Japan. What you describe in Ehime Caley, competetition with weight divisions, is something that I have never seen nor heard of in my time living and training in Hokkaido, Chiba and Aichi prefectures. The weight division thing strikes me as bizarre -- to me it seems contradictory to notion of goho techniques being effective regardless of size and weight (I know there are practical considerations, ie. trying to avoid injuries, but it still strikes me as odd). Thanks again for your interesting posts.

Best Regards,
Mike Johnson
Inuyama Kita Shibu

Cailey Barker

12-14-2000, 01:50 AM

I agree, Mike. Highly against Shorinji principles. However, most of the participants (including me) enjoyed it. The women too. It just depends on the prefecture...they all vary.

I also agree with John. However, although Randori competition should never be the main emphasis, doing it once in a while is good practise. Hokei style randori doesn't have the same pressure and tension as competition randori. Something close to this is experienced in a street style situation. Keeping Hei do Shin is part of the practise too...the randori competition just needs to be kept in control.
(I remember a very heated debate on this between Jee Sensei and Graham Nabbs - they vehemently disagreed on competition...I'll let you figure out which sides they were on).

MarkF

12-22-2000, 03:20 AM

If you do not mind, and since this is a discussion about two things which have made a big difference in my life, and that is randori and contest-randori, or shiai.

In the early days, it was truly a shi ni ai: shiai. one judge decided who had lost, won, the time limit of the match (after one was simply and totally defeated, or after both could no longer continue), and working in doing randori in the same full-resistence mode as in shiai.

Most look at what happened to judo in the Olympics, or in world championships, but the truth lies in the small judo clubs which pepper the landscape in every corner of the world.

Simply, it just isn't like what is seen in the Olympics, competitiors are arranged by grade, age, and approximate height, but never to weight. The only thing which has changed, leaving out the big tournament partial point scoring matches, is that there are time limits, but not because someone could be hurt, but because of the lenght of time it would take to get in everyone who entered.

Randori has other beneficial effects than practicing what is learned in a "real" invironment, so friendship, kibutzing, fighting, or playing against those who are of relatively the same experience, gives the winner a day to celebrate, the loser time to inprove before the next shiai, and otherwise go up against neighboring dojo.

Either way, randori does have benefits, whether to test one's skills, or to practice technique so as to learn SD.

So run with it. Instill differing rules so as to make randori relatively safe (if you listen to a bunch of old judoka talking about "war" injuries, it doesn't seem so safe), but when it does mean a student is bored, and keeping a student who is sure to move past this if given a chance, randori certainly has its place. I wouldn't still be training, and learning the ura of judo, such as ko shiki no kata, weapons, kime no kata, all which come after the fight is all gone from your body and mind. It just may be the thing to hold interest until one is ready to move on, not necessarily to teach, but to do some real training.

No one can have it both ways, but I can't think of a better way of smoothing over the impatient years with a small contest we usually call invitationals, as one dojo hosts all the others in the same area. If it is kids we are speaking of, ask the parents to also participate, in the planning of tournaments, the hours a dojo may want to consider for class time best for all considered, and to keep the doors open in whatever way it can be done.

Well, I'm off my rant now, and back to business, but just speaking from personal experience, it was a blast! I may get beat up if the challenge were to go on for more than thirty seconds, but it was grand while it lasted. It also made me more aware of what was available afterwards, as there is no such thing as a retired student.

Mark

Gary Dolce

12-22-2000, 07:52 AM

Mark,

Thanks for the outside perspective. In general, I think we all agree on the value of randori in regular practice - I think where the disagreement comes in is on the subject of whether or not we should extend that kind of practice to more competitive situations (i.e., tournaments with winners and losers).

I am curious if you perceive any negative effects to this kind of practice, such as excessive ego, overly-competitive attitudes, etc.? I am also curious about how tournament competition has affected the philosophy of judo. As I said in an earlier post, I have heard that the founder of judo originally intended it as a means of moral/philosophical instruction, but that the philosophical content has been lost as it became a competitive sport. Is this true from your perspective?

Daniel Latham

12-22-2000, 11:11 AM

Mark

I was a member of the US Judo Association for a little while. As I remember, the way to proceed in belt ranking was to defeat opponents in competition; so many points for opponent of equal rank, more points for opponent of higher rank. Am I correct?

USJA is the association that administers the US olympic judo program. Maybe other groups have different rules. Please keep me informed.

Dan Latham
South Oregon

MarkF

12-24-2000, 04:23 AM

.Well, first off, the USJA is a branch arm, along with the USJF (formerly the US black belt Federation), with the national umbrella organization, the USJI (US Judo Incorporated). The world organization is the International Judo Federation, and the one which deals directly with Olympic and other International judo events. Yes, competition wins and losses are sometimes used to grade judoka.

That said, there is nothing in any of the organizations' rule books, espcially with the IJF, which says one must be graded with shiai results speaking for you. If you go to the IJF site, http://www.ijf.org , it is spelled out that it is recommended but in no way must it be followed, that all rules of the IJF be in action in shiai, grading tests, if any (the traditional way differed widely, but in the sixties and seventies, it was not nearly so specific that a grading test be part of any promotion).

The USJF was the first national US branch of the IJF. The USJA came about when a man named Philip Porter (a man who today calls himself "O-sensei,") an organizer of the Armed Forces Judo Association went to court to break up the seeming hold that the USJF had on American judo. He won. There were many reasons for this, but, yes, you are correct that this was much more important in the early days of the USJA (formerly the Armed forces Judo Association) winning in shiai did get you points, and you would advance. The USJF was similar, but was far more tolerant of the traditional judoka who believed the sensei was aware of who should advance a grade, rather than a win/ loss percentage, but this happened frequently in all organizations. On the other hand, the average time to shodan was eight years, and it took me more than nine.:) :nin:

However, the only "tests" I was given was for sankyu (at the age of thirteen, sometime in 1964, before the USJA existed as such, and at shodan, where I was graded at that level, I chose to do formal kata instead of my won/loss records doing it for me. This could go on forever.:)

However, in the years since the IJF collaborated with the IOC, some things have changed, and not for the better, I'm afraid. Partial point scoring (but four quarter points do not equal a full point?), passivity penalties which give the opponent a partial point for the rule infraction, has eliminated near pefect nagewaza (waza-ari, or "a technique has happened!") or the perfect nage (One point. Match over!), or pinning, chokes, joint locks, submission are rarely found, and when one does try for a pin, it better contain some type of waza or you could face a shido (equal to koka, or eighth point) for stalling. Then it gets even better.:)

Basically, you are right. There are many negative aspects fo these constant changes in the rules. The fact that there are meetings to discuss rule changes amoung class A international shimban more than twice yearly, and clinics in which new hand/body movements, not to mention the change in vocabulary, must be taught to the officials, does give the appearance of damaged goods. While there were some good rule changes, such in allowing one opponent to wear a blue judogi (offical errors went down by up to forty percent), it has changed what was a way of learning into a must-win environment.

So to come back to what the meaning of contest judo was and is, one must go back to pre-1930s judo practice, as Prof. Jigoro Kano, became largely a figure head by then, while the Kodokan was becoming politicized. One learned judoka, who did go back around that time said "this is not MY judo."

One could go on and on concerning what is wrong with judo, and more importantly, what has happened to the great shi ni ai (now shiai) and what judo really was. The contest was simply a manner of learning, a way of showing respect. One could be a winner for a day, but back in the dojo, that rubs off quickly. The contest really wasn't more than organized randori, and randori was not an invention of Mr. Kano, nor was the term judo his. Judo was first used by an old school of kito ryu, called jikishin-ryu, and was first used in the late 18 century. Challenges and contests were not of judo. It was being practiced regularly by the various ryuha of jujutsu. Kano simply organinized it by placing waza in certain basic categories; those of randori, and those of kata. The oldest judo kata, ko shiki no kata, is pure kito ryu, and is said to be the "ura" of judo, or what others may describe as "secret." It was originally practiced in armor.

But the contest was simply an extension of something which all ready existed, but also was in its death throes. Jujutsu was dying, and preserving this would have to become a way of life, and to allow everyone who wanted to learn, to do so. There is challenge in everyone's life, and Kano sought a way to teach this with the shiai. Someone lost, someone won, but it always lead to "mutual welfare," the foundation of judo.

But I don't think anyone was ready for this to work as fast as it did. Taking the real danger out of randori and shiai meant anyone could do this, but it had to apply to everything in your life. The one great exaggeration people have made over time, that Kano wanted judo to be an Olympic sport. This is not so. He always maintained, and even on the trip on which he died, after a meeting of the IOC in Cairo, Mr. Kano did not bring up the subject of judo, the game. In fact, Kano said "Judo is not a game." It is far too dangerous to be taken as a simple game."

Politics are to blame for this. Even the Kodokan is anything but innocent. The book Kodokan Judo by Dr. Jigoro Kano was not written by him, it was not published until 1958, twenty years after Kano's death.

So, I will stop this rambling, by saying that in my dojo, the rules of grading and shiai, are as close to the "old guys" as possible, except for a time limit for matches. The longest match in judo history, was 55 minutes, and that was the first of the great challenge matches in the late 19 century, and ended in a draw (see http://www.furyu.com third edition, and is online). In New Mexico, there are still the small invitationals for child and adult, and parents are encouraged to participate in organization. Matches, have only two scores, waza-ari and ippon. Draws happen frequently, and just like the old days, one fought until he couldn't fight anymore, or lost. No breaks for water, rest, etc. I left LA so I could go back to this type of surrounding.

You are correct to question it. I only wish those involved would question the motivations of some.

Judo is a great sport and martial art. Many who start in MA, do begin with judo. I may have been lucky, but at the age of twelve, my teacher showed me things I later found to be atemi no kata, kyusho, newaza which no one, not the man I called sensei, had seen. As in life, patience is a virtue in judo. It is all there, and even those today who practice koryu, do some judo, eg, Meik Skoss, Kit Leblanc (submission grappling), etc. Show a little patience to judoka. Karate has taken even worse hits, but it survives, as will judo. I'm not too worried.;)

Mark

Steve Williams

09-11-2003, 03:31 PM

This topic was a real hot one near 3 years ago :eek:

And I had a lot of really good opinions back then......... (wonder what hapenned there ;) )

A new one for all you newbies.....

Random

09-13-2003, 05:16 PM

wasnt Randori more prominent in the earlier years then much heavier regulated after someone died ?
I am new to Shorinji Kempo but I was talking to sensi Lofton today about this subject after reading this.
He told me Kaiso sort of pulled the plug on alot of the Randori after a death during Randori.

Tripitaka of AA

09-14-2003, 11:22 AM

Yes Kurt, I believe that this is so. However, I think the death occurred long after Kaiso died (1980, if I recall). So it would have been the WSKO Technical Committee and Kancho who gave the order.

I don't know the details of the death, but I gather it was a "head-hits-floor" kind of thing. Possibly related to over-enthusiastic competitive spirit.

The Universities in Japan love to build up rivalries and compete with each other in every club pursuit or sports activity possible. That way University X gets to claim superiority over UniversityY, in say, Chess... or Rugby... or Baseball... or Shorinji Kempo. It was possible to imagine this level of raised testosterone could be perverting the purpose behind Randori, of mutual progress and betterment. So outright competition with winners and losers is now discouraged (although Randori within the Dojo is still an important element of training).

Some of the earlier posts talk about this, but I'm summarising in case it was a bit confused (people have been talking about this in several threads, and it doesn't always make sense :) ).

David Dunn

09-14-2003, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by John McCulloch
According to a Hombu report entitled "Randori as a means of practicing Hokei" released in the early 1980s (I think), Hombu's viewpoint is that the purpose of randori is to allow kenshi to experience the challenge of applying technique in an unpredictable environment.

Does anyone have this report? I'd be interested to read it.

John Ryan

09-12-2006, 06:15 AM

Hello all,

I was going to start a new thread on this topic, but as I suspected it's been done before, in this very interesting thread. However, since the last signficant input on this subject (in this thread, at least) was six years ago, I'm interested to know what people think now.

I began thinking about the subject again recently upon hearing that the upcoming BSKF Taikai may include a randori competition. My thoughts largely mirror the excellent contributions from George-Sensei earlier in the thread, and I'm not convinced his arguments were answered in the thread; nevertheless to spur even more discussion I had a few more thoughts.

Suppose you enter, you take part, and during the randori you strike someone in the face and break their nose. How do you feel? Is it simply their fault for entering, part of the expected risk? Should you have pulled it? If you'd pulled it, would you have got the point? Would you have pulled it if you thought you wouldn't get a point for doing so? Were you just striking while out of control? Maybe you think you did everything right that you should have done; nevertheless someone's going home with a bloody nose and it's your actions that caused it. Does this reconcile with your reasons for practice? Have you trained half for yourself and half for your injured opponent? Now suppose, as has happened before, that the person falls backwards, hits their head and dies. All you did was jodan zuki. Still feel your actions are inscrutable?

Rob Gassin

09-12-2006, 07:37 AM

Injuries can happen in any form of training in SK. i have had my nose broken in randori practice, my AC joint dislocated during pair form practice and a finger dislocated during warm up (from hitting the ground doing windmills!!).

I am not averse to randori competition in SK but on the other hand, randori is not what attracted me to SK and even in my hayday, I probably would not have entered such a competition. However, I can think of many who would have.

With regards to the 2 examples you give,the 2nd example is easy, it is a freak accident and could have happened anytime, anywhere. Yes, I would feel terrible about it but I would have felt the same iif it had happened practicing kaishin zuki or keri ten san or it I was leading warm-up and he had slipped and hit his head practicing gyaku geri.

With regards to the first example, my reaction would depend on my intent. It my intent was to break his nose then I might feel that I have achieved my goal. However, I would be very aware that my action was not in the spirit of SK and therefore carry some guilt. Conversely if it was an accident, I would feel some guilt but depending on circumstance, I might think that he could have dodged better. In fact getting a broken nose might make him alert of a weakness and help him improve. I guess, what does not kill us, makes us stronger.

I cannot see anything wrong with randori competition in SK if it is done in the right spirit and helps the competitors improve. One suggestion is that such acompetition should be run as a round robin and not an elimination. This would give every competitor the chance to have a fair go.

tony leith

09-12-2006, 01:09 PM

We have been here before, I think..

As I understand it, the proposed randori element at the forthcoming BSKF Taikai will NOT involve teams representing dojos, but will involve weight categories to avoid severe mismatches (wouldn't help me much, being a dwarf made of neutronium, and not being allowed to hit the vulnerable parts I can actually reach..) Participants in randori will also be obliged to present embu.

I think the former is a commendable effort at discouraging the kind of stuff I've seen before - it's not so much the cheering for your guy, it's the implication that you want to see the 'enemy' pulverised I find unacceptable. I doubt it'll work, but it'll be interesting to see in practice. I can only imagine insisting that randori competitors also do embu is aimed at preventing the emergence of a randori competition fixated minority.

I do occaisionally do randori practice in a tournament style in the dojo - it is a useful way of getting students to sharpen up in their delivery of atemi, both in attack and defence, with my function as referee being to make sure this stays under control. If (fairly big if in my view) randori competition is taken in the same light I don't see the harm.

Unfortunately I think the likelier consequence is that the more there is a culture of competition, the more more the ego comes into play. I for one am progressively becoming less interested in watching athletics for example because of the probability that the feats I am watching are chemically enhanced. Where there is competition, there will be cheating, because there will always be people who care more about winning than anything else. At the moment, cheating is simply not a concept which is relevant to Shorinji Kempo as an activity. If competition were to be the predominant motivation for even a minority of kenshi practising, I'd bet a large sum of money this wouldn't be true for long.

Tony leith

sean dixie

09-12-2006, 01:31 PM

At the moment, cheating is simply not a concept which is relevant to Shorinji Kempo as an activity. If competition were to be the predominant motivation for even a minority of kenshi practising, I'd bet a large sum of money this wouldn't be true for long.

Tony leith

Hey Tony, have faith man! :)

Ewok

09-12-2006, 11:44 PM

I recently got to do some nothing-barred goho randori at my shodan exam (non-competitive, but its still something). Face protector, do, kinteki-protector, and optional gloves, shinguards etc (didn't have them, don't like them). Some other people I noticed were using mouthguards.

Basically we geared up, having all the gear we were told that we were to use as much as we knew and to stop when told to stop. We only did this with our partner (normally someone from the same dojo) not rotate around.

One person is kosha (attacker), one person is shusha (defender). Hajime!

For me it was the first time using the "new" faceguard and kinteki so I avoided striking the head. My partner had no qualms and to say I had my butt kicked would be an understatement. Generally they stop the sparring when the first strike is made, but this makes for bad randori (and made me sad because I got a lovely sokutogeri in and had to follow it up with rentenkan). The idea is to keep the attacks flowing and for the defender to use shushukoju correctly - I think they waited for the 3rd strike and then called it.

Overall I thought it was pretty good and its apparent my application of kihon and waza needs some work :p

tony leith

09-13-2006, 02:09 PM

Sean

Hey Tony, have faith man!

Faith is irrelevant to judgement. What I am saying is that if competition were a prominent aspect of what we do, then inevitably some - I'm not saying all, or even more than a small minority - of the people attracted to our activity by the prospect of winning competitions would resort to whatever means might be necessary to do so.

The evidence is strongly in favour of this proposition in almost every sporting competition. A parent of a tennis pro in the making was prosecuted recently for inadvertanly killing one of his progeny's prospective competitors (seemingly he only meant to debilitate rather than actually kill).

Hell, the activity doesn't even have to be formally competitive, All it requires is that ego is on the line. I've spent a fair amount of time in weights rooms, and I've been offered steroids quite casually by people I know. If your goal is simply self improvement, using drugs is in some senses clearly irrational - surely your maximal development is determined by your natural genetic capacity.

I've got to be honest, I have never personally understood the point of competitive sports. I don't mind watching them, but I resented being made to participate in them to the extent of consistently getting 'D's for Physical Education at school ( probably not helped by describing rugby to a PE teacher's face as 'one of the most moronic activities known to man'). As soon as I was liberated from this idiocy, physical activity and training became a consistently important part of my life, and has remained so ever since.

I'm a libertarian, if competitive sports, or climbing mountains, or jumping off them for that matter, is your thing, then as long as I'm not going to be conscripted into it I don't much care. Unless the kind of culture which is pervasive in (especially professional) competitive sport might threaten to contaminate an activity I am involved in. Then I have to take an interest.

Tony leith

Ewok

09-13-2006, 03:20 PM

If it makes any difference, any randori in a "competitive" sense that I've seen in Japan was purely done - there was no tournament-like progression with winners knocking out losers and continuing, simply people rotating partners and doing randori until the shinpan (referee) said it was over. No scores were taken, no special recognition was given to anyone.

On the other hand, what about embu? Embu is scored, we name winners, that makes it competitive right?

John Ryan

09-14-2006, 06:17 AM

On the other hand, what about embu? Embu is scored, we name winners, that makes it competitive right?
Yes, embu is competitive. But who's competing against who?

In embu, the competition is internal. By developing, practising, refining and eventually performing an embu, you necessarily practise technical skills and philosophical skills. Not only do you improve your techniques, but you improve your partner's. You learn together as a pair. In randori the competition is destructive - the aim is to win, to conquer the other person. You do not aim to teach them or to help them. If you see a fault of theirs, you do not try to correct it but you try to exploit it. Quite how this relates to any Shorinji Kempo I've been taught is beyond me.

The person (pair) winning an embu competition may be just as happy as the person winning a randori competition; the difference is that the embu competition has done nothing but develop people, whereas the randori competition has probably done the opposite.

I've only really seen two different justifications in this thread for randori competitions: that they're fun to take part in and that they improve fighting techniques. I imagine that most of the people who find it fun only think that way if they win enough to satisfy their ego. I doubt there's many people who would enjoy getting battered. And surely the path of budo is about relinquishing these desires to win, to be superficially stronger than another person? As for the other point, I just don't buy it. To think that competition randori is somehow significantly closer to "a real fight" than ordinary randori is fairly delusional. There's still too many constants, too many safeguards. To think that proficiency in randori competition makes you a better streetfighter is to believe that the confines of competition randori extend to the street. For there to be any specific relevance to streetfighting, randori would have to have an arena with obstacles, own clothes, weather, potential multiple attackers, bystanders, fellow fighters, weapons... and that once you're losing, a kindly onlooking will step in and immediately stop things. In short, there's no comparison.

Alternatively, let's lok at it philosophically. What's the aim of a participant in a randori competition, while he/she is doing randori? To win. I'm struggling to think of any other answer. There may be wider aims such as "to see how good I really am; to see where I should set my confidence level", but these do not apply in the heat of the moment. And how can this aim (to win) be achieved within the realm of Shorinji Kempo? I don't know.

tony leith

09-14-2006, 07:27 AM

I think John makes some cogent points.

In particular the arguments he makes about 'realism' in fighting competitions is compelling. I suspect that the main reason for having rules, protective equipment, gloves etc. etc. in pro and semi pro combat sports is not so much out of concern for participants, but more of concern that the bout will be over too quickly for spectators to get their money's worth. For self defence purposes, the quicker a situation is over the better.

This is not to deny that the people who compete in thse sports have signficant advantages over those of us who don't, not least the amount of punishment they are conditioned to withstand and still function. However, no amount of abdominal conditioning will turn aside a knife blade, which is why I'd rather spent my time in class practicing hikimi than doing sit ups.

Quote from John
In randori the competition is destructive - the aim is to win, to conquer the other person. You do not aim to teach them or to help them. If you see a fault of theirs, you do not try to correct it but you try to exploit it. Quite how this relates to any Shorinji Kempo I've been taught is beyond me.

I assume that here John is referring to competition sparring. Randori practice per se need not be any more destructive nor 'zero sum' than any other aspect of Shorinji Kempo practice. Once when training at Hombu I got into randori with a Japanese kenshi. It was supposed to be a limited exercise, but didn't stay that way for long. We were throwing everything we had at each other, but there wasn't any ego involved. Both of us were able to acknowledge successful strikes without reservation, and I think were communicating with each other on a much more profound level than our limited ability in each other's languages might have allowed.

Tony leith

Tripitaka of AA

09-14-2006, 01:39 PM

Both of us were able to acknowledge successful strikes without reservation, and I think were communicating with each other on a much more profound level than our limited ability in each other's languages might have allowed.

Tony leith

I've experienced this in a randori session that was part of a taikai. The fact that we had the same language did nothing to warn me of the difference that training under a different Sensei could have on tactics, preferred techniques, sneakiness and skill that I encountered. Anyone who was around when I trained will probably not remember my pathetic attempts at randori, other than as examples of "how not to do it". I knew from the first time in a randori that it would be my weakest element. The opportunity to practice against strangers from other clubs doesn't present itself so often, and I really pushed myself to see it as a chance to learn something new.

Fun, and they improve fighting techniques... are those two benefits really so easy to dismiss?

I must have missed out on all those occasions where randori competition descended into something like a barenuckle fight in a lock-up behind a pub, that some of you seem to have seen. My memories (as a complete coward who dreaded randori, but pushed myself to like it as much as possible) of Shorinji Kempo randori - even when performed in a semi-competitive environment - are generally positive.

Rob Gassin

09-14-2006, 04:01 PM

Ewok

09-14-2006, 06:05 PM

In randori the competition is destructive - the aim is to win, to conquer the other person. You do not aim to teach them or to help them. If you see a fault of theirs, you do not try to correct it but you try to exploit it. Quite how this relates to any Shorinji Kempo I've been taught is beyond me.

Sounds like some very poor randori. Embu was not always planned out and practiced at length, back in the day it was random and done on-the-spot. When practicing randori you are using kumiteshutai - paired practice - to develop use of hokei. One person is to attack allowing the other person to properly apply shushukoju - defence then counter - and the better the attack, the better the experience is for the defender. Properly applying atemi by using kyojitsu means that if the defender properly creates their own kyo and the attacker uses it they are satisfying more key points of Shorinji Kempo. Proper use of maai (aim is to hit so maai needs to be perfect), developing happomoku (watching the entire body), randori can develop and fulfill just about any part of the key concepts in Shorinji.

I suspect the competition part is, like my teacher loves to say, simply bait. You don't get "good" at randori until you can properly chain attacks smoothly (key concept), that you can defend then counter properly (key concept), pick maai, exploit kyo or creat jitsu from nothing. If I could do this and apply it in randori, perhaps some time after 2020, I would probably "win".

Technically you shouldn't be able to "win" a randori competition. Its not a free for all, its attack or defend. The you either fail to defend properly (and "lose") or your opponent fails to defend properly (and "loses"). When I did randori I got punched in the face twice - perfect jodan choku duki, all this means to me is that my uwauke is shocking and I'm grateful that my partner gave it his all to help me understand that.

John Ryan

09-15-2006, 02:48 AM

I've been quoted thrice now on the same sentence and only Tony saw the context in which I wrote it. By randori in that context I meant competition randori, not cooperation randori.

I feel people are confusing hard cooperative randori with competition randori. There's nothing wrong with practising hard training, as long as it's in the spirit of randori (and therefore the spirit of Shorinji Kempo). My contention is when the context of randori is removed from mutually cooperative training and put in the realm of competition and winners and losers and delusions. I've practised hard randori with people; I've been hit, and I've learned from it because the person doing the "winning" has done so with the aim only of teaching me. If the same situation were transmuted to a competition, there would be no teaching (there may be learning, but that's another discussion). Put another way, if you're in a competition randori situation and your thoughts are about teaching, then why did you even enter the competition? In what way would it then be anything like a fight? Wouldn't you be better off teaching cooperative randori? If your mindset was of teaching, then it could be said that you were doing cooperative randori, and the facade of competition had evaporated. Why therefore have competitions?

At risk of slipping off topic, I endorse Tony's views on exuberant randori being a profound level of communication. When one's mindset is correct, when one's techniques can flow smoothly and gracefully, then randori is a stunning experience, entirely separated from the grime and ego of a fighting competition.

Rob Gassin

09-15-2006, 07:37 AM

One of the main objections of the anti randori competition lobby is rhe emphasis of winning.

The truth of the matter is that although everyone likes to win, for most people who enter a competition, it is not an achievable option. Most aim to challenge themselves and perform at their best. They might also feel pride in representing their club, association, state or country. Is there anything wrong with this?

Yes, there are the bad eggs who have enormous egos or who will cheat to attain their goal. Having a randori competition will not engender these traits in people but it may bring them to the surface. Is this a bad thing? No. It allows the rest of us to become aware of these kenshis' negative personality traits and gives us an opportunity to remind them of the teachings of the Seiku, Seigan and Shinjo.

With regards to an emphasis on winning, this in itself is not a bad thing. If I got attacked by someone with a knife and could not get out of the situation, an emphasis on winning would be vastly superior to an emphasis on a coorperative approach. And remember under duress, you will revert to what you are used to. If all you are used to is a coorperative approach, I pity you :p .

As I have noted in an earlier post, I myself have no interest in competing in a randori competition. Neither do I believe that such competitions should become more than a minor aspect of SK. However, I do not see any reason why such tournaments should be completely discouraged. But, in my opinion, only a token prize should be given to the winner (eg a SK sticker :rolleyes: ).