Soke...Juko-kai

[kagebushi]

Don, where are you??? http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif I think this one is for you.

Ruediger,

willkommen zu e-budo. Es gab hier schon viele Disskusionen ueber diese Organisation, besser gesagt "Kriege". In meiner persoenlichen Meinung, die Organisation ist ein Witz, und der Titel ist gekauft. Das ganze Blablabla und der Gebrauch von japanischen (oft inkorrekten) Titeln ist laecherlich. I frage mich wie jemand so weit sinken kann, das er sich einen Titel kaufen muss (es waere einfacher und billiger eine eigene Organisation zu gruenden und sich selber zu befoerdern, http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif wer so was schon braucht um seien Ego zu befriedigen). Der Hintergrund dieses amerikanischen Gruenders ist sehr zweifelhaft (er wurde schon mehrmals fuer seine Luegen blossgestellt), das er seiner Organisation einen Japanischen Namen gibt, macht es nicht mehr authentisch. Sei nicht ueberascht, aber auch einer der Moderatoren von hier, ist auch ein Mitglied dieser Kauf-Deinen-Soke-Titel Klubs, und hat sich seinen Soke Titel erworben... Sich darueber aufzuregen ist reine Zeitverschwendung, denen is egal was du denkst. Die Opfer sind ahnungslose Schueler, die einen echten qualifizierten und authentischen Lehrer suchen. Diese Schueler werden enweder entaeuscht aufgeben, oder wachsen und lernen, realisieren und sich dann einen besseren Lehrer suchen...





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Mark Brecht

[Ruediger]

Hi all,

someone out there, who can give me infos about the Juko-kai and the "Way of buying a Soke" http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif. Is this a serious Organization (the Juko-kai)?? I ask, because there is an Organization here in Germany with a 10. DAN Soke in Tamashii Ryu (never heard his before). It sounds ...mhhh... funny for me. Maybe you want to take a look at the Website here in Germany (the Site is also in english, but leads later to german Sites)
http://www.soke.de

Thank's in advance

Regards

Ruediger Meier



[This message has been edited by Ruediger (edited 06-04-2000).]

[Jeff Cook]

Mark,

Mr. Meier had the courtesy to post in English. Excuse my lack of education; I am respectfully requesting that you post in English as well so we can all benefit from your comments.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Since being banned from another forum, I have been hesitant to post any further messages about Juko Kai or its founder, Rod Sachranoski, on e-Budo. It was so difficult for me during the server crash, I just couldn't imagine being banned from posting here, too. Suffice it to say, however, that anything or anybody associated with this organization or its supporters should be considered questionable. I will add that I have received notification from the Maine Department of Education indicating that Rod's University of Oriental Philosophy is operating without any authorization and apparently in violation of that state's law. I also understand that the Maine Attorney General is now looking into some of Juko Kai's more questionable operations. I suspect it won't be long before Rod moves his organization to another state.

By the way, my German is very limited, mostly to ordering beer and finding bathrooms. I would be interested in a translation of your previous message. Please post it or send me an English summary via e-mail.

Sincerely,

Don "Banned from Budoseek" Cunningham

[This message has been edited by budokai (edited 06-04-2000).]

[Richard Elias]

Popie,
Thanx for the heads-up on the clipart thing. And yes, the piece in the upper right corner is one of Don's.I'm a student of Don Angier's, and I think he might be interested. When Mr. Sachranoski first began this little venture, he asked Don to join his "Soke Board" to give it validity. Don declined. I'll be forwarding this info to him. Interesting though, you can't actually click on that piece. He also has the page copyrighted. If nothing else, Don should find this amusing. There is also a piece done by a long time friend of Don's, Walter Von Kreiner. It's the one in the upper left corner.
Thanx again,

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Richard Elias
Shidare Yanagi Ryu

[This message has been edited by Richard Elias (edited 06-04-2000).]

[Ruediger]

Thank you all for the replies.
My first impression, after reading the Website of the german 'Soke', has been confirmed through your comments.
I think, that the Juko-kai should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Regards

Ruediger Meier

P.S.
Mark, your german is damn good, much,much better then my english http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

It won't fall. It will just fade into another jurisdiction. Look at how many times Juko Kai has changed states in just the past few years.

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Don Cunningham

[kagebushi]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Cook:
Mark,

Mr. Meier had the courtesy to post in English. Excuse my lack of education; I am respectfully requesting that you post in English as well so we can all benefit from your comments.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dear Jeff,

i wrote the post in German to answer the question, while trying not to commit arson (BTW, http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif i was not aware that the first amend. is limited to American English, neither do John`s rules prohibit other languages...). Anyway here is a rough translation:
In my personal opinion, the organisation is a Title-Mill. The (often incorrect) use of Japanese, for an American company does not make it authentic... Might as well found your own system and promote yourself (please, do not take this personal Jeff, i didn`t have you in mind when i wrote this, it was a general thought, I respect you as a moderater and a professional Soldier/Security Consultant, you marketing strageties and or whatever your reason are, are your business and only yours, afterall it is a free market economy). I also made Ruediger aware, that is kind of thing is not uncommen, as i am aware of at least one e-budo moderator here, who received his "Sokeship" through the mentioned organisation. I did not write this to attack, rather to answers to his suspicions, and to make a point (the only thing i consider really worthy to translate into English): There is no point of getting upset, about Title-Mills, as these people do not care anyway. The victims are the unkowning students, who seek qualifed and authentic teachers (but fall for the titles and ranks). Some of these students will be disappointed and give up, others will learn, grow and realize... and go on to a new teacher. That is part of the quest (nobody that it is easy...).




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Mark Brecht

[John Lindsey]

Oh oh, here we go again. My perspective on this whole matter is that until we have some official facts here, I think we should let subject die off for now. We have spent almost a year on this subject.

For instance, if it turns out that the Juko-kai is secretly training ninja terrorists, lets here about it. Likewise, if the Emperor of Japan names Rod a National Living Treasure of Japan, then lets here that too. My point is that the good, the bad, and the ugly are all "postable" here, but base it on hard facts, not the grapevine.

Remember, e-budo begins and ends with reiho...



[This message has been edited by John Lindsey (edited 06-06-2000).]

[Mike B]

Hiya,

You want facts? I have in my possession a copy of a Juko Kai rank certificate. It was given to me by an aquaintence who was trying to convince us that he was really a 4th Dan in Karate, and that he was recognized as such in Japan. (BTW, this fella's name is really on the original certificate but he can't tie his own shoes much less do karate.) At the time I didn't think much of it but after reading a post by someone here on E-budo concerning the rather comical use of kanji on these certificates I decided to have a Japanese friend of mine check it out.

Wholly Molley!

It's no rumour. The kanji for Seidokan Karate do is essentially spelled "whorehouse or more specifically "Sex Way House Karate". It's right there in black & white for everyone see! Who is Sachrnoski kidding? Not me!

Roflol

I don't remember who posted this gem of information on e-budo but whoever you are, thanks for the enlightenment. We all got a good laugh out of it here at the dojo.

I've got the goods on Rod Sachrnoski right here in my hands. His signature, big as Paul Bunyon right there promoting people in Whorehouse Karate. Now thats a fact!

Gotta luv it! http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

Mike Beall
Shito ryu Karate
Kodakan Judo

John, You,ve got to admit that this sort of error on a formal certificate reputedly "registered in Japan" casts serious doubt's on Sachrnoski's's claims. How could a legit Japanese Budo Association allow such an error unless.........

[This message has been edited by Mike B (edited 06-06-2000).]

[Jeff Cook]

Mark, you are right, there is no rule against posting in another language other than English - that's why I RESPECTFULLY REQUESTED, NOT demanded, that you post in English.

And as you mentioned this: "Might as well found your own system and promote yourself (please, do not take this personal Jeff, i didn`t have you in mind when i wrote this, it was a general thought, I respect you as a moderater and a professional Soldier/Security Consultant, you marketing strageties and or whatever your reason are, are your business and only yours, afterall it is a free market economy)." In spite of your words indicating generality, you insinuate that the shoe fits.

I founded my own system by going out and teaching what I learned from various "established" classical and koryu arts; I DID NOT PROMOTE myself in any art or organization, and I have never sought promotion (I hold three black belt ranks in other classical arts from long toil through the ranks, and I was awarded organizational rank by some of the most respected martial artists in this country based upon my systematic teaching of what I know). I have been recognized out of respect for what I do and what I have accomplished. I could CARE LESS about rank, and I could care less about affiliations and petty political squabbles.

I have a school open to the public; my "strategies," my history, in fact everything regarding my martial arts training, are not just my business, but anybody who inquires or makes leading statements concerning my public dealings makes it their business, and this is the way it should be.

This is the way all public organizations should be run - if anyone running an organization has something to hide, or has the need to deceive or embellish, they need to go find another line of work.

Disclaimer: my comments above are not directed towards the Juko-Kai nor any other organization. These are my own opinions which are reflected in my "marketing strategy."

Anyway, Mark, I hope you can understand why I felt the need to make a detailed, pointed reply. This is a sore subject for many people, but it is a valuable discussion nonetheless. We all just need to keep it in the realm of "valuable" and not allow it to become another flame.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[John Lindsey]

Also, I seem to recall that there is the Juko-kai message board at their site. That is probably a good place to visit as well...

Hi Kent,

Just for you, I have had contact from both the Maine Department of Education and the Maine Attorney General's office. There is nothing "alleged" about the University of Oriental Philosophy's wrongdoings. It is definitely operating illegally in that state. As I understand it, they are currently considering the appropriate legal action necessary to shut it down. They are also looking into several other of Juko Kai's questionable practices for potential consumer fraud. If the people you talked with don't know anything about it, then send me an e-mail and I'll give you the names of those actually investigating Rod's business practices. I can also supply phone numbers. If you're really in law enforcement, then you should know that the legal system moves very slowly. Unfortunately, many of those who defraud others often take advantage of this syndrome.

Finally, I was "booted" from Budoseek for making what some considered an inappropriate pun about Mr. Tolson. It had nothing to do with my exposure of such questionable groups like Juko Kai. I was invited back, but I prefer to remain in the banned status. I would rather be upfront about my thoughts than concerned with what certain people think of me.

If anyone needs to get the facts straight, you should. If you're really in law enforcement, it scares me to think of those in your jurisdiction when you so easily jump to the wrong conclusions so often. It's a frightening thought that someone empowered to enforce the law is so easily prejudiced. I am especially concerned when a person with such responsibility is involved with questionable groups like Juko Kai or individuals who are are so blantant about their fraudulent practices.

By the way, Kent, I am insulted by your comments, too. I haven't attacked you or cast any doubts on your credability. So why do you continue to attack mine?

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Don Cunningham

[This message has been edited by budokai (edited 06-06-2000).]

[kagebushi]

I should have kept my trap shut, or rather kept my fingers of the keyboard. I admit it might would have been better, to just privatly email Ruediger, rather than responding to such a HOT subject publicly. I thought i would avoid all this trouble by using another language, but that was a mistake. Too late now, and after people asked for the content of my post, i felt bad and tried to be fair and translate it.
Jeff, seriously i did not have you in mind when i typed the original post. I apologize if you feel offended. I am straight and honest to let you know, that i simply see no point why people would create "japanese" styles. That does not mean that i do not consider you a highly qualified martial artist, i am actually pretty sure that you have more real life and street experience of "shinkengata", than most japanese masters. I am sure your students stick with you because of your leadership and teaching skills, not because of the exotic sounding art name. (BTW great stuff for another heated debate, you were refering to some of your background arts as "classical", i think you were referring to Gendai Budo arts... http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif let`s do that one another time...).
To Kent, i did not address you directly, out of respect, there was no hidden agenda. I enjoyed during the last couple of months many of your posts, and i think the e-budo community is fortunate to have you here. As far as the Juko-kai goes, there was no shin kicking, a new member asked a fair and valid question (which i think is one of the purposes of having this board). I stated my personal opinion and nothing else. Anybody who knows japanese MA and a bit of Japanese, will start wondering when they take a look at the Juko website. I encountered some strange "japanese" titles... but lets not go into that stuff. The remark about picking on my lienage, http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif i am confident and cocky enough to ingnore that. But seriously, why is everybody offended so easily. I do not dislike anybody here, otherwise i would not spend my time here. I respect you guys actually very much (i do not think it is a contradication, that i do not really care or think highly about some of the politics or organizations).



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Mark Brecht

[kagebushi]

Don, come on. Your last post is getting a bit personal. I think we can disucss and debate our opinions here, but we should keep a certain respect towards each other. I think Kent showed you respect, mentioning that he is glad that ebudo is more tolerant. I know his post sounded angry, but i also understand that he feels attacked. Let`s not exchange low blows, please. It won`t get us anywhere, also it will upset John and force him to take action. Debate Don, please do not assault...

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Mark Brecht

[Jeff Cook]

Mark,

I am not offended, but I am very adamant about making certain that people know where I stand - I don't want to risk others misunderstanding something that is very important to me. And I also do not want to give the false impression of fraud, deceit, and lies when it comes to representing what I do.

(I do respect you and our opinions.)

As far as my use of the term "classical," I may have to concede that one to you. Perhaps gendai is a more accurate term; I draw a distinction between classical and ancient (as in koryu) - classical being the more "modern" derivations of ancient arts, such as different styles of Okinawan karate, aikido, judo, and shinto yoshin jujitsu (actually, that one may be classified as koryu). Gendai I have always seen as being more modern, as in the comparison of timelines between Shorin, Shotokan, and Wado, Wado being the most "modern" (even though it is very deeply connected to the koryu art of shinto yoshin). In this respect I would consider Shorin to be "classical," and Shotokan and Wado being "gendai."

My use of a japanese term for what I do is not an indication that I have created a japanese "style." I purposely picked a very generic term to label what I do - I did not create nor reinvent anything, but because I applied a structure to my training regimen, it necessitated a label for conveinence. And I chose a japanese term because the majority of my training has been in japanese/okinawan arts. Nothing more, nothing less.

(Notice how I try to redirect the topic away from more damaging conversation? Hope it works! http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif)

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[kagebushi]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Cook:
My use of a japanese term for what I do is not an indication that I have created a japanese "style." I purposely picked a very generic term to label what I do - I did not create nor reinvent anything, but because I applied a structure to my training regimen, it necessitated a label for conveinence. And I chose a japanese term because the majority of my training has been in japanese/okinawan arts. Nothing more, nothing less.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeff,

i thank you for this post. I have a couple of business decisions to make regarding this issue. You just gave new food for thought.
BTW, http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif how about we jump into your forum, and continue with the Tactical Decision Exercises... We should ask Neil for something new, hey wait a minute you are the moderator, how about you putting up one ( http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif instead of straying in other forums...)

http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif See you in CQC,


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Mark Brecht

[This message has been edited by kagebushi (edited 06-07-2000).]

[Ruediger]

Uuuuppsss,

just a little question about the Juko-kai and in return a few answers to think about. I am sorry that my question leads to this discussion. If i annoyed someone just let me say i'm sorry about this.

Regards

Ruediger Meier

[Kit LeBlanc]

Looks like E-Budo is OFFICIALLY back!

Kit

[ghp]

Rudeger [u. Mark]

Gruess di'!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>besser gesagt "Kriege"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"...better called [referred to as] "war.""

Freili', dass is sehr richtig (lachen). Oder, sag' man "Stimmt dass!" ?? I'hab alles vergessen. It's been over 20 years since I was in Germany.

Anyway... froeli', hertzli' willkommen.

Berg heil,
Guy Power



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Guy H. Power
http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan