Snobs?

[TommyK]

Greetings,

I was having a discussion with some new students (less than 3 years) to the martial arts.

In it I explained the term 'Koryu', and after a thorough explanation, I was asked the following question:

"Oh, I know those people they are the guys who look 'down' on the 'Do' arts. Do they think they are elitists by studying real, but old, combat arts?"

Nevertheless, I was surprised that somehow these new students had heard this version of the Koryu art and its students.

Any thoughts?

Regards,
TommyK

------------------
Tommy K. Militello

[Dokanyama]

I think all of us want to believe in what we are doing.Many of us, myself included, started in what ever form we did, just because it was the closest or the only choice there was. Even without experience, or knowledge of what else there is out there, many of us suffered from the attitude that what we are doing is the best martial art one could possable be do.

This attitude is commonly found in both koryu and and gendai budo, both in the States and Japan.

A lot of people want to do Koryu, or Gracie Jujutsu, or whatever just because it's popular today. Think of the Ninja craze and all the people who got involved with that in the not so distant past.

I think it's natural to have this attitude at first, especially with people new to budo or people who are young, though certainly not everyone has this attitude. The mark of maturity in budo is when you begin to take confidence in what you do, and let other people do what they want to do without making value judgements based on style or what have you.There is always room for critical discussion conducted in a "professional" way.


Telling lies about your linage, rank, Ryu... these are exceptions, and if Japanese budo is to be maintained then this shouldn't be tolerated from anyone. Mistakes are natural and should be forgiven. Attitudes like those described in Tommyk's post are to be expected and we should do our best to guide the less experienced with tollerance and whatever wisdom we have.

Those who have been in Budo a while, and yet haven't developed the maturity to not feel threatend by other budo and budoka should perhaps be taken with a very large grain of salt.

Thomas James
Niiza, Japan

[socho]

I want to hear more about the supermodels. Any of them do koryu (or gendai)? Seriously, though, the other side of the coin from koryu elitism is gendai sour grapes. Enjoy what you study, whatever it is. There is value to be found in (almost) all of it.

------------------
Dave Drawdy

[Margaret Lo]

I think there is nothing wrong with well placed elitism.

[Joseph Svinth]

If all your practices are to be pre-1868, then all the right-wing fascism needs to go, as does most of the Zen, as these are 20th century accretions. Meanwhile more interest needs to be given to revolvers (used by samurai during various late Tokugawa assassinations)and such. (Handguns are pre-1868, even in Japan.)

Normally, though, koryu is simply a nice name for what in English would normally be called creative anachronism. Nothing wrong with that -- creative anachronism is a nineteenth century concept associated with the Romantics -- but the idea is more English than Japanese.



------------------
Joe
http://ejmas.com

[Margaret Lo]

I think that practitioners of koryu arts often have good reason to look down on practitioners of modern arts. I think elitism promotes excellence.

-M-

[ericDZR]

i like well placed supermodels!!

[Jeff Cook]

Elitism of this nature, Margaret, only promotes excellence within the minds of the snobbish elite.

An elitist who looks down on others is a legend in his/her own mind.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Margaret Lo]

Jeff - just take a look at your local karate McDojo. There is not much there for me to be proud of. I feel that one should not look down on another's technique just because one trains in another style.

However, if I see poor technique and poor understanding of karate, I cannot respect these practitioners.

I think there is less Koryu to go around, and while politics and poor technique also exist in the koryu, it is less pervasive than in the more modern arts. Overall, the modern arts seem to have more problems.

-M-

[Jack B]

That is mainly because there is more of them.

The best budo people I know are humble.

[Jeff Cook]

I look around, and most of the McDojo's around here are supposedly koryu.

Margaret, my feeling is that you are over-generalizing.

BTW, Shotokan is not considered a koryu; in fact, many practitioners of the truly ancient Japanese arts do not consider any of the karate styles to be koryu. Also, the Okinawans (the innovators of karate) were quite aghast at what they felt Funakoshi had done by "modernizing" and "japanifying" karate.

They lamented what they perceived to be the decline and bastardization of their art by one of their fellow Okinawans whom they considered to have "sold-out" karate.

Personally, I feel the Okinawans were being too traditionally stiff and resistant to evolution. I think Funakoshi was brilliant, adaptive, and imaginative.

But I do find it interesting to hear you making the same generalizations about "modern" systems when you are a practitioner of a modern system.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[TommyK]

Wow!!! What did I start?

I like the logic stream Ms. Lo used in stating her position on elitism, but I personally lean more toward Mr. Cook's position on the subject.

By the by, I have found that the more serious and talented individuals in the arts have little to say about this kind of subject, they just do.

One of the first things I really admired about studing my art was that anyone can 'talk the talk', but on the mat no one lies! Intellectual discussions like this are fine, but the bottom line is can one 'walk the talk'.

I personally feel that anything one can learn something positive from is worth learning, and if it works in the street, all the better. I'm sure there are moves meant to be used against someone in armour, but that can be adapted for use in todays worls.

I thank all of you for your replies, and I ask you...Can not even the McDojo's be of some use?

Regards,
TommyK




------------------
Tommy K. Militello

[Kolschey]

One fellow had an interesting take on the role of "Mc-Dojos". His view was that they served as a sort of coarse filter that would tend to attract those with more immature motivations and leave the rest of the more serious dojos free to practice their arts in an adult atmosphere. Those who attend the McDojos and feel that something is lacking will tend to eventually look to more established arts, if they do their homework. Some people are not prepared for the responsibilities of a traditional art, so the market would seem to have provided an abundance of alternatives. The only negative results that seem to come of this are either the aggression that comes from a pseudo martial path without sufficient philosophical grounding, or the belief that one's skills will be sufficient to serve as a substitute for good manners and common sense. When I see a demonstration where people are kicking guns out of other people's hands, I cannot help but find myself dwelling in a state of Social Darwinist reflection. Ah well..

------------------
Krzysztof M. Mathews
" For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
-Rudyard Kipling

[Tetsutaka]

Handgun defenses as they pertain to Social Darwinism??? WOW I like this forum...

I coudn't agree more. So, that begs the question:

Are McDojos the "koryu minor leagues"?

[socho]

I'd lilke to get back to the elitism thing. The implication seems to be that koryu are better just because they are koryu. Huge overgeneralization. Is the value of koryu that they are old, or 'authentic', or battle proven? Or is it that they preserve cultural roots of certain martial traditions?
I recently attended (and participated in) a martial arts demo (kobudo embu) at a Shinto shrine in Yokohama, Japan. Twelve major schools did demos, mostly of koryu arts. Some of them were simply hilarious. One style began their forms on tiptoe, pointer finger extended out to the side and down. Another demonstrated swinging huge wooden paddle-things, to the accompaniment of very loud breathing. Certain of the sword forms of some of these schools are so far removed from actual useful techniques that they are now indistinguishable from kabuki dancing. Are these schools/forms inherently worthy of respect because they are koryu? There are some very strange things that go under the name of koryu.
Pride in your style is fine, even healthy. But elitism is by nature exclusionary, sometimes blindly. I agree that there are McDojos out there that demean and diminish the value of martial arts, but to disrespect the students, who may not know any better (yet) but are practicing with good spirit and intent, is an injustice.

Ok, enough soapbox, fire away.



------------------
Dave Drawdy

[hyaku]

Sorry, double posting

[This message has been edited by hyaku (edited 06-03-2000).]

[hyaku]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hyaku:

"Oh, I know those people they are the guys who look 'down' on the 'Do' arts. Do they think they are elitists by studying real, but old, combat arts?"
Any thoughts?

Regards,
TommyK
..................
I don't think it applies here in Japan. Saying "I do both" is something I have to write in forums. Gendai Budo is also a term I had never heard of until I joined.

There are differences between older and newer styles and sadly too many. To the extent that very soon some forms will bear no resemblance whatsoever to their original standards. Already in Kendo we see a strike instead of a cut. not what constitutes a good cut but what we need to do to get a point. Yet we call it the way of the sword?

Without a doubt if you want to find something new look at the old.

I would not say "elite" but a pride in being able to study and carry on an old tradition. If anything the peacock syndrome seemed to be far less evident. People seem to be far more interested in practicing an art rather than "look what colour belt I have!"

I would also leave out the word "combat". Reading many threads there seems to be a very fine line if almost non between combat/self defence and Chinese and Japanese Arts.

American Indians dance on their toes and point a lot. Look what modern (at that time) western martial ways did for them.

........................

Hyakutake http://www2.saganet.ne.jp/sword <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[pboylan]

I think the image of koryu practicioners as being elitist comes mainly from the fact that for non-japanese, about the only way to learn koryu is to go to Japan. The few who have made the quest and progressed far enough to to be able to teach their art, AND have returned to the west can't be bothered to talk about it. If you don't want to practice, they aren't interested om talking about it, and they're not terribly interested in debating with people who aren't willing to make the sacrifices they have (I have some theories about this as well). This can easily give people the idea that they are elitist, when they're really just far more interested in training than in talking.

Peter Boylan

[john mark]

Another spin on Mcdojo from the presepecitve of a now retired Kyokushin fighter. Kyokushin fighters are elite karate fighters.

I asked Saiko Shihan Oyama (9th dan Kyokushinkia/Kancho Oyama Karate) why he was lowering the intensity of the general classes, while maintaining the intensity of fighting class and private training. He stated that in order for his dojo to prosper and survive, he had to cater to a large number of students, many of whom were not interested in full contact fighting . Without these other students, he could not afford to train his top fighters.

On the koryu side, over the last 20 years I have spoken with many koryu practitioners. My experience has been that they do not look down on Mcdojo style of martial arts, but are rather very proud of the quality of their training.

John

[Kolschey]

I guess it's time for me to throw my hat in.
I train in a Koryu art- Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu under Mark Jones Sensei of Napa, CA. I began training two years ago here in Madison, WI.
I would certainly hate to think that my training makes me snobbish. Rather, I find that the training has the effect of making most of it's practicioners more humble. Part of the reason for this is that the tolerances for error do tend to be lesser than in many of the other arts that I have practiced. When you are practicing Iai-jutsu, a lapse of concentration will result in a visit to the emergency room. Many of the long time students of KSR that I have met have stories and scars from their own blades. Kobudo forms have their own tempering influence. All of the cuts have very specific targets and applications that would result in crippling or lethal injury in a live blade encounter. Even with the wooden weapons, the consequences of an ill controlled strike are quite serious, given that the targets are the same as would be attacked in "real" combat. To train with a serious senior partner will reveal to you a world of vulnerablity. Another critical element is the role of Reishiki, the ettiquette of the school. This involves being very much aware of one's proper handling and care of weapons and how one properly relates to others who are similarly armed. This is something that I have found that martial arts practicioners are not always concious of. The reason why I train in KSR is severalfold. Firstly, I find that it has a particular sort of focused intensity coupled with specific technique. I have also trained in Kendo, and enjoy that art greatly, but find that the mindset does differ. KSR has more of a pragmatic feel to it, as the techniques and footwork are not geared towards a sportive context. Consequently, I find that the practice of KSR helps greatly in my practice of Aikido. It emphasizes precise and grounded footwork, which is a real asset when one is trying to throw a larger partner.(Previously, I had difficulties with hopping and dancing my way through irimi-nage) I also find that the focus from training in the Kobudo partner forms greatly improves my zanshin for armed and unarmed practice. Perhaps one of the greatest benefits of my study, however, is the opportunity to connect to a sense of history. As I see my martial arts practice as a form of ancestor worship, this gives me an insight into some of the realities that my predecessors must have faced in combat of ages past. I certainly don't believe that my practice of a Koryu art makes me any better than other martial artists. My continued practice of Aikido gives me the experience of working with people who have achieved an extraordinary level of skill and character which inspires me in my own endeavors. As we are all working together towards self realisation, the path is a matter of personal preference. The path and it's exploration is it's own best reward.

------------------
Krzysztof M. Mathews
" For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
-Rudyard Kipling

[Margaret Lo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Cook:
I look around, and most of the McDojo's around here are supposedly koryu.

Margaret, my feeling is that you are over-generalizing.

BTW, Shotokan is not considered a koryu; in fact, many practitioners of the truly ancient Japanese arts do not consider any of the karate styles to be koryu. Also, the Okinawans (the innovators of karate) were quite aghast at what they felt Funakoshi had done by "modernizing" and "japanifying" karate.

They lamented what they perceived to be the decline and bastardization of their art by one of their fellow Okinawans whom they considered to have "sold-out" karate.

Personally, I feel the Okinawans were being too traditionally stiff and resistant to evolution. I think Funakoshi was brilliant, adaptive, and imaginative.

But I do find it interesting to hear you making the same generalizations about "modern" systems when you are a practitioner of a modern system.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeff - I am well aware that Shotokan Karate and Karate in general are not Koryu arts. Shotokan karate is less than 100 years old and created in the 20th century out of Okinawan styles.

It is precisely because I am a practitioner of a modern system that I decry its state. I do not believe I am over generalizing because there is such an overabundance of bad technique and poor understanding even within organizations of my acquaintance, which are recognized to be good karate organizations.

Yet in comparison to the general run of commercial clubs, the organizations I have trained with are far and away superior.

My feeling is that the Koryu practitioners are in general fewer in number and have not (yet) experienced the extensive commercialization that karate has suffered. Therefore, there may be a proportionally higher number of good practitioners in the Koryu than in karate.

So in my last post, I stated that Koryu practitioners have reason to look down on some practitioners of modern arts - but whether they actually do so is open to speculation. The Koryu artists of my acquaintance are good people who are too busy with their own work to be so petty.

Really, I define elitism to be an awareness of excellence and a willingness to state what is good vs what is poor technique. I do not see it to be a license to personally snub other martial artists. My only point in favor of elitism among Koryu practitioners is this: if it protects the Koryu arts from the commercialism that happened to karate, then good for them.

Excuse me while I run to class, that sequined gi is hell to put on http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif


-M-




[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-05-2000).]

[Jeff Cook]

Thanks, Margaret. I do want to publicly state something which I think you already know: I respect you greatly, and I know you are not a snob! http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

Elitism by definition implies superiority and favoritism towards the superior group. I agree with you that there are definitely superior groups of martial artists ("superior" in this case could be defined any number of ways, but we will save that fodder for another topic!).

But to foster a feeling of elitism is to foster a trait that we all strive to diminish: that all-important attitude of mind called humility. A truly humble person will feel only pity towards the misguided; they will not feel superior.

I can't help but think that we are slapping the "elite" label on a group that really does not desire the label.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[This message has been edited by Jeff Cook (edited 06-05-2000).]

[Margaret Lo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Cook:

Elitism by definition implies superiority and favoritism towards the superior group...to foster a feeling of elitism is to foster a trait that we all strive to diminish: that all-important attitude of mind called humility.

I can't help but think that we are slapping the "elite" label on a group that really does not desire the label.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[This message has been edited by Jeff Cook (edited 06-05-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I can agree with you whole heartedly. I guess the real problem is semantics. Setting high standards should not by itself stick anyone with the label of being "elitist" with all the arrogance that it connotes.

Let's turn this question around a bit - assuming that a koryu artist of your acquaintance is something of a snob, would you still go to learn something from him or her?

BTW - I am a snob.... a food snob though I do sink to eat the occasional McBurger. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif

-M-

[Tetsutaka]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Cook:
snipElitism by definition implies superiority and favoritism towards the superior group. I agree with you that there are definitely superior groups of martial artists ("superior" in this case could be defined any number of ways, but we will save that fodder for another topic!).

But to foster a feeling of elitism is to foster a trait that we all strive to diminish: that all-important attitude of mind called humility. A truly humble person will feel only pity towards the misguided; they will not feel superior. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeff,

Great post. I couldn't agree with you more. That is why I stated in another thread that there is a difference between an elite organization, and the arrogance of any membership. I think there is also a problem with the term "elitism".

There is definitely a pejorative connotation in "elitism" that I think in some cases is well-deserved. To state that "koryu arts are an elite form of martial arts" is one thing. [I would dare say it is a dimple statement of fact.] To say that their constituency are by and large "elitist" is another. The connotation is completely different. Go look it up in the dictionary (http://www.m-w.com) and see exactly what I mean.

BTW, the same applies to any organization, be it koryu or gendai -- karate, judo, aikido, jujutsu, et al - ad infinitum - ad nauseum...

"Elitism" is proffered by "elitists". Take your pick as to who is who and what is what...



------------------
Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[BrianV]

Margaret,
Your question about whether I would go to learn under an elitist snob, Koryu or not, is an interesting one.
I believe in the pursuit of excellence, physical, mental and spiritual. I have never achieved it in any of the three. No one I have met so far has achieved it.
For myself, a technique is only a technique, known by myself or not. It is the fostering spirit of the person that interests me.
If someone is so caught up with themelves or their traditions, or their lineage that they look down upon others without endeavoring to educate themselves fully in regards to the other style or persons strengths, then this person is not allowing themselves the opportunity to grow and develop.
This is not someone who, in all probability, I would have great success developing characer or spirituality with.
I will wait and learn the same technique or concepts with someone who is more open and humble.
It is enough of a blight on the arts in general that we have elitists who, in pursuit of their own perfection, disregard or, even worse, attempt to discredit others of alternative beliefs or practices.
I have always worked under the direction of a simple line, "every peson is my better, that I may learn from them". This tenet has served me well in the past and has helped me to progress.
I have a question for you, if some of the older Masters were still around, (Kano, Ueshiba, Funakoshi, etc...) would they turn their backs on the less traditional arts, or would they be learning combat handgun techniques along with Kali and Pentjak Silat?

Respectfully submitted,


[This message has been edited by BrianV (edited 06-06-2000).]

[Margaret Lo]

Brian - I feel that without a doubt, any of the old guys, Mr. Kano, Mr. Funakoshi would never have left their teacher's work behind even if they parted from their teachers.

If however, their teachers studied silat etc... then they would have trained and taught silat. They are Japanese after all.

-M-

[Joseph Svinth]

When you want to learn to break heads, you don't go to college professors, you go to head-breakers. When you want to learn history and tradition, you don't go to a dance studio, you go to a college. And when you want to talk about character-development, you don't go to head-breakers, you go to a seminary or a philosophy class.

Where you go wrong is when you go to professors to learn to break heads, or head-breakers to learn situational ethics.

As for arrogance, well, if you can walk the talk, then you're stating fact, not brag. But if you can't, then no matter how impressive the toilet paper on your walls, you're still a self-inflated balloon.

As for the older masters you mention, my guess is that Kano would have been organizing seminars for the Kenshusei while the other two gentlemen would have been ignoring outside developments. Why? Well, that's what they did when they were alive, so I can't imagine they'd do things much differently if reincarnated.

[Kit LeBlanc]

Joe,

I like that. But what if you want to break heads, learn history, and develop your character?

I think the best combine these attributes.

Kit

[Joseph Svinth]

Kit --

The answer to that one is simple: Train with three different people.

This process is cheaper, faster, more efficient, and most germane to this discussion, more Japanese. (Think Meiji -- the Army learned from the French and Prussians, the Navy learned from the British, and the railroaders learned from J.J. Hill of the Great Northern.)

------------------
Joe
http://ejmas.com

[MarkF]

Kit,
To do it appropriately, you would have to reverse the order in your post. One may be better at breaking heads if he developed his character, learned his history (or herstory), and then broke the appropriote heads. Hell, there are some world leaders who did just that.

------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Kit LeBlanc]

Mark,

Mark, to me, what you just described is the essence of Budo.

Kit

[Tetsutaka]

Wow, erudite and macho all at the same time...

I think I'm in love.

Mark, please don't take that personally, it's the concept I'm talking about... http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-07-2000).]

[MarkF]

Houston,
I didn't take anything here seriously. If you meant the "joke" I was making, believe me it was only a feeble attempt at humor. Now that I read it, it not only is about budo, but about conquering as well. C'est le guerre. Pardon my french, really. This is a phrase in which I really have never taken note to spell correctly http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif



------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

[TommyK]

Thanks to all who responded to my question!

I'm sorry if the topic upset some, but I am happy that the question got Mr. Lowry to enter the fray. I enjoy his writtings and I hope he shares more with us on E-Budo.

Regards,
TommyK

------------------
Tommy K. Militello

[Doug Daulton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph Svinth:
When you want to learn to break heads, you don't go to college professors, you go to head-breakers. When you want to learn history and tradition, you don't go to a dance studio, you go to a college. And when you want to talk about character-development, you don't go to head-breakers, you go to a seminary or a philosophy class.

Where you go wrong is when you go to professors to learn to break heads, or head-breakers to learn situational ethics.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent point Mr. Svinth.

It is the rare teacher who can legitimately provide instruction in two of these three key areas of study (head-breaking/combat, history/tradition or character development). And, the legitimate teacher of all three is the proverbial needle-in-the-haystack.

The myth of "one teacher for life" is sown and grown by martial arts cinema. It makes for high drama (or at least creates a compelling reason for the fight scenes) when the student is "orphaned" by the death of his teacher. Now rudderless, the student lashes out in "righteous fury". If the now-dead teacher was a master of all three areas and an effective teacher to boot, would his student, now without benefit of his guidance, go on a vengeful killing spree?

There is an old saying ... "a parent's job is to make themselves obsolete ... so the child can stand on it's own." This doesn't mean that the child will ultimately lose love or respect for their parents. Indeed, the mature child will see that his parents are not god-like ... rather they are full of human weakness and frailty.

However, now mature and independent, the child affectionately and respectfully seeks his parents counsel on those issues in which he knows them to "expert" ... despite their weaknesses in other areas. Over time, the mature child also comes to further love and respect thier parents for thier dedication to the child's instruction and the sacrifices they made on his/her behalf.

I think this applies to teachers as well. I've found that the best teachers are the one's who know what they can teach and what they can't. Where they are weak, they selflessly direct their students to better resources.

Even were someone fortunate enough to find a genuine and skilled teacher of two or three of the key areas outlined above, there comes a point where all students must make the learning their own. At the risk of sounding esoteric, they must come to know, from their own experience, the real "truths" of the teaching. Else, the student simply parrots the teacher and never develops any real substance.

To bring the topic full circle .... in koryu bujutsu, gendai budo or life in general, I think most people experience the distasteful "elitism" described here when the long-time parrot strikes out on his/her own and suddenly realizes that they never really "got it". Rather than admitting their ignorance, seeking new teachers and redoubling their efforts to genuinely learn ... these parrots hide behind a shield of elitism.

It is in these circumstances that we see martial arts deteriorate into the "mystical world of bulls**t" as one former teacher liked to call it.

Doug Daulton
Reformed Parrot (I hope)




[This message has been edited by Doug Daulton (edited 06-13-2000).]