Pranin drops a bomb.

[Walker]

S.Pranin has published an open letter concerning a Daito ryu organization and their web site. Check it out www.aikidojournal.com (http://www.aikidojournal.com)
check open letter link.

-DougWalker
Bastard Son of Ireland
Last living member of The Sons of Rest
“Why stand when you can sit, why sit when you can lie down.”
Preserving the secret teachings of the true way of leisure as passed down from our ancient Irish ancestors.

[Anthony Chui]

"I can't think of any Japanese headquarters school running a website that doesn't have a version in Japanese. It just makes no sense! How am I to understand this strange omission?"

go to http://www.aikikai.org/
to find "To Japanese Pages (“ú–{Œê)
Still Under Construction"
(and have been for a while now.)

http://www.daito-ryu.org/
"For the moment the site is in English only, but we are hoping to expand it to include the same historical and biographical material in the original Japanese as well. "



[This message has been edited by Anthony Chui (edited 06-13-2000).]

[Nathan Scott]

The internet is not as big in alot of countries yet, including Japan. So it is not that uncommon to find that there is an English language page and not a Japanese version since (likely) a native Japanese who is knowledgable in publishing HTML would have to create it.

That's not to say the page does not warrant some investigation, but I wouldn't use this point as the core for any argument, IMHO.

Regards,


------------------
Nathan Scott
Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo (http://www.shinkendo.com)
Tsuki Kage dojo (http://www.tsuki-kage.com)
Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum (http://www.swordforum.com/jsa)

[Mark Jakabcsin]

"-DougWalker
Bastard Son of Ireland
Last living member of The Sons of Rest
“Why stand when you can sit, why sit when you can lie down.”
Preserving the secret teachings of the true way of leisure as passed down from our ancient Irish ancestors."

Doug,
I laughed my ass off at this one. While my wife is not Irish I am sure she must be in some sort of sister organization. Although with her you must be careful not to wake her or the redhead in her comes out full tilt. Hope to see you in Dallas again so I can learn more about your ancient art. Being an Irish art I assume that it involves Guiness.

mark

[JosephBlow]

As an outsider looking in on Daitoryu (I did train for a few months), this looks like the postmortem bickering among students that happens throughout the martial arts. I've heard Kondo trashed by students of another student of Tokimune -- whether it's a junta, a family business, a religious group or a ryuha, the jockeying and in-fighting start when the figurehead kicks it.

Pranin has obviously thrown in with Kondo, and that's a very safe bet. Within the Daitoryu community I get the impression that no one can dispute Kondo's legitimacy as an instructor (though I have heard other factions disagree about his being a successor -- indeed maybe there isn't meant to be one). Pranin's Aiki News has helped to cement Kondo's legitimacy by making embutaikai videos with other system heads' expressions of support (including the Takumakai).

This is not to say that Aiki News' activities are unjustified or wrong -- it only says that Pranin has clearly indicated his position on the successorship issue people obviously want to continue debating. Rather than official position, the more important thing for me about a teacher is what can the person do and how well can I learn from that person.

Rich B

[Walker]

Mark,
I’m glad you liked The Sons of Rest. It is the creation of my great uncle Paul “Irish” Walker who was a newspaper man in Gettysburg PA. The Sons of Rest was a running gag that went on for years. He printed up membership cards entitling members to bench seats at parades, unlimited time observing construction sites, and the use of handicapped parking regardless of physical condition etc. He would produce materials for nonexistent events like the Knights of Columbus vs. KKK softball game and send them out. He’s been gone almost 15 years so I got a warm feeling thinking about the Sons. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

I agree with Toby. What’s the point of all this blood and thunder? They certainly seem to be talented and experienced individuals why isn’t that enough? Certainly several of S. Takada Sensei’s students coexisted just fine with different orgainizations. But, who knows what set them off. It seems to have happened during the late master’s illness.
As a “little” guy of no consequence I kinda ’spect mo’ o’ me betters.

------------------
-DougWalker

[Kendoguy9]

>>"I can't think of any Japanese headquarters school running a website that doesn't have a version in Japanese. It just makes no sense! How am I to understand this strange omission?"

go to http://www.aikikai.org/
to find "To Japanese Pages (“ú–{Œê)
Still Under Construction"
(and have been for a while now.)
http://www.daito-ryu.org/
"For the moment the site is in English only, but we are hoping to expand it to include the same historical and biographical material in the original Japanese as well. "

i can't say much for the Aikikai site, but i know there are other officially sanctioned Daito-ryu web sites, in Japanese. http://member.nifty.ne.jp/daito-ryu/
this site is run by a Mr. Shimomura, and from what i gather has Kondo sensei's approval. it seems it has a lot of good info. on it. if you look under "eimeiroku" section it has a list of some of the more famous students of Takeda Sokaku sensei, some even with pictures. there is even mention made of Charles Perry as well.

just because we can't see it doesn't mean its not there http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

Gambatte!!!

------------------
Chris Covington
Daito-ryu study group
Shinkendo
Kodokan judo

"As an outsider looking in on Daitoryu (I did train for a few months), this looks like the postmortem bickering among students that happens throughout the martial arts. I've heard Kondo trashed by students of another student of Tokimune -- whether it's a junta, a family business, a religious group or a ryuha, the jockeying and in-fighting start when the figurehead kicks it." - Rich B.

Rich,

What makes this so unusual and is the reason for Stan Pranin's ire is that Kondo Katsuyuki is the only person to receive a Menkyo Kaiden from Takeda Tokimune. He was also formally appointed as "Soke Dairi" to Tokimune long before his death. That pretty much seals the deal here without any question.

That these goobers in Hokkaido went to such ridiculous lengths to try and redefine what a Menkyo Kaiden is, is obvious. They don't like the deal. Well, tough beans guys! Grow up! Now you look like childish fools. Fancy pontification, blatant distortions and creative new interpretations of time honored traditional teaching documents won't change the facts.

Why they didn't just start their own faction is beyond me. Trying to hijack the hombu tradition is really ......... dumb!

Toby Threadgill

[Nathan Scott]

Hi,

I could be mistaken, but didn't T. Takeda Sensei experience some kind of mental degenerative type disease for some time before his death? This is very possibly why there is room for confusion regarding who was officialy supposed to continue the art.

It appears from documentation that Kondo Sensei was clearly chosen to substitute in his place, perhaps until a Takeda was fit to resume the Sokeship.

But there are at least one or two takeda's that claim to be continuing the Daito ryu blood line and now these guys.

Can anyone confirm Takeda Sensei's illness and why there might be room for "interpretation" as to who should continue the line?

Interestingly, I believe Nakamura Taisaburo Sensei may be suffering from a mentally degenerative disease as well, and I understand there is already confusion over who is supposed to be appointed Nidai Soke of his style (guess I should confirm this rumor with Mr. Power). What a really sad thing to have to go through for all involved.

Regards,

[John Lindsey]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Walker:
What’s the point of all this blood and thunder? They certainly seem to be talented and experienced individuals why isn’t that enough? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think the problem is not with ability, but rather nobility...

[Kolschey]

I do find it sad that after the death of a founder or elder, various arts tend to go through a sort of " King Lear " phase. It makes things incredibly complicated for everyone who is less concerned with the nuances of organisational politics.

------------------
Krzysztof M. Mathews
" For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
-Rudyard Kipling

[ghp]

Hi Nathan --

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Interestingly, I believe Nakamura Taisaburo Sensei may be suffering from a mentally degenerative disease as well, and I understand there is already confusion over who is supposed to be appointed Nidai Soke of his style (guess I should confirm this rumor with Mr. Power). What a really sad thing to have to go through for all involved.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although sensei is not as coherent as he once was, he'd definitely not senile; and there's not really any confusion at all now about his successor. Each of us who received "Densho" (about 50 people) are "in the running" to be nidai soke -- however, I'll tell you right now that I'll not be selected http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif (they're just being polite to me).

His daughter is now responsible for copyrights, use of image, etc. -- so until sensei officially names someone, she's probably going to be the defacto soke-dairi for the time being.

I just hope the official nidai-soke is named-and-retained prior to Nakamura sensei passing over "Sanzu no Kawa" [River Styx]. Lord knows we don't need any factions being created.

Regards,
Guy

------------------
Guy H. Power
http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan

[JosephBlow]

Hi Nathan, that's one of the things I heard suggested -- that Tokimune was taken advantage of when he wasn't competent. I have absolutely no idea about its veracity -- given the goals of the Hokkaido disputants it's not a particularly creative argument.

Maybe part of the reason for the intensity of Pranin's response is because the issue isn't completely resolved (or clear). I believe there was litigation about this but I don't recall who the parties were or who won. I don't care enough about Daitoryu to find out.

Of course, this could be resolved the way a similar dispute in another ryuha was resolved -- the more legitimate guy went over to the fraud's house to pound him.

Part of the problem with classical martial arts is that there is not enough fighting -- this isn't unique to Daitoryu. Without duels, people spend way too much energy on political BS and don't get real skills. What's the point with all of this combat training if it primarily develops your ability to stab others in the back? It doesn't take any training to do that...

It isn't my intention to start a silly flame war. I think this is a legitimate problem. I don't know if Karl Friday wants to be associated with this but his book "Legacies of the Sword" addresses the issue beautifully.

Rich B

[Kendoguy9]

John Lindsey wrote,

&gt;&gt;I think the problem is not with ability, but rather nobility...

i am in no way a Daito-ryu master or even a good or skilled student, but having seen video of the late Takeda Tokimune, Kondo Katsuyuki, and this Kato fellow... well, this Kato guy doesn't move much like Takeda sensei did at all. better or worse, i don't know but nothing like Takeda or Kondo sensei's. it sort of looked like clumsy muscle powered jujutsu.

Nathan Scott wrote,
&gt;&gt;I could be mistaken, but didn't T. Takeda Sensei experience some kind of mental degenerative type disease for some time before his death? This is very possibly why there is room for confusion regarding who was officialy supposed to continue the art.

i don't believe that Takeda sensei became ill until 1991. Kondo sensei was awarded soke dairi in 1988. this information is from "Conversations with Daito-ryu Masters". the info is in different parts of the book, so it is sort of hard to put the dates together. i would guess that things were set up long before any mental illnesses might have set in.


gambatte!!!


------------------
Chris Covington
Daito-ryu study group
Shinkendo
Kodokan judo

[MarkF]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I could be mistaken, but didn't T. Takeda Sensei experience some kind of mental degenerative type disease for some time before his death? This is very possibly why there is room for confusion regarding who was officialy supposed to continue the art.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most here know I know diddly about daito ryu, except what read. I have a fondness for the written word and more than a passing fancy for the "aiki" arts.

It seems this penchant for explaining things away with unverifiable explanations, in this case, daito ryu, goes back a couple of generations. I will base this on my reading of the series of interviews Pranin did with T. Takeda mostly concerning his father, Sokaku, with an honorable mention to Ueshiba M. It appears Sokaku was bitten by the same snake which may have bitten the son. It seems Tokimune had similar explanations for his father's rantings when Sokaku was in his eighties. The usual reason was "Please forgive my father. He is in his eighties" which would imply some kind of dememtia and does not seem so unlikely. Of course, in these interviews (BTW: you can find them on http://daito-ryu.org ) it is explained that, I believe, from a cousin, that Sokaku was a "wallpasser,"intimating he would walk through walls. It also seems that Sokaku, who was, by his son's admissions nearly deaf by then, but could hear things most humans with normal hearing could not. Apparently, he could tell the sane from the insane only by being in the same house with them, not having met them, and being on the floor above. Wow! I will not say that these interviews, much like those with Ueshiba late in life, shouldn't be taken with a grain of salt, but these are just a few of the things which are "proven" to be true because, well, "he said so." Ah, well, no one said MA wasn't any fun.

That said, I have also been to the daitoryu.com site and it seems, other than the "hombu," is run out of Italy, as everything, seminars, teachers, etc, every happening within their walls happens there. Why? I am not so sure.

If Tokimune did suffer from dementia of some sort, and he was ill less than ten years ago before succumbing in 1993, that this could easily be put to rest. The inner demons of Sokaku, however, is a big question mark, one that, I'm afraid, will never be verified. The true reasons for all of this, however, is based in business, and this part should not be so difficult to understand.



------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

Hi all,

If I may be so bold as to address several different threads here with one post, please pardon me for perhaps taking a momentary tangent or two.

Mark F. wrote: "It seems Tokimune had similar explanations for his father's rantings when Sokaku was in his eighties. The usual reason was "Please forgive my father. He is in his eighties" which would imply some kind of dememtia and does not seem so unlikely."

Here is where a valid argument for studying koryu in Japan can be made. Not that I'm saying it can't be learned outside of it's cultural context with the right teacher, but Diane Skoss has a valid point in her controversial article. Try to follow as I attempt to explain what I see happening here:

This thread was about Stanley Pranin (rightfully IMO) challenging the claims of a certain group of Tokimune's students who've formed their own organisation, and acted quite disrespectfully, or shamefully as some have put it. Stanley respectfully raised the raised the right questions for these folks, and has publically called them on the carpet.

But now there has been added a new, I think less respectful take on the situation (regardless of whether it is valid or not). And that is regarding the state of Tokimune sensei's health and the possible effects it may have had on his mental faculties towards the end of his life, particularly with regard to the issue of sucession in Daito-ryu.

I think that the question of legitimate sucession of Tokimune's mainline is clearly answered with regard to the dates that Kondo sensei received the designation of "soke dairi", and the fact that he possesses the menkyo kaiden from Tokimune sensei. So while the Seishinkan in question, may quibble over the legitimacy of Kondo sensei, and people everywhere can speculate about Tokimune's mental health, it accomplishes nothing, IMO. Nor does this sort of speculation prove anything. Rather it is, in my opinion only denigrating to Tokimune sensei's memory and therefore is not very respectful. Now what does this have to do with Mark's comment, and studying koryu in Japan?

While we actually know very little about Tokimune sensei's health towards the end of his life, we’ve read tidbits published here and there and therefore it may SEEM reasonable to speculate about it, but I don’t think it serves any positive purpose. I certainly think it’s stretching it too far to include Tokimune's father, Sokaku into this speculation simply based on Tokimune's statements about his father's behaviour. Why? Because here is where I think living and training in Japan, and understanding Japanese people and cultures will provide a different perspective, and interpretation of Tokimune's comments quoted above.

The Japanese are always self-depreciating and apologetic for their behavior and the behavior of their "group", whether it be their family or associates. But Sokaku was known (even when he was younger) for his frank and straightforward, if not blunt mannerisms. Nor did he become a martial art's genius and master without developing exceptional perception skills. Tokimune was raised primarily by his mother, and was no doubt, a more polite and proper Japanese (even Sokaku felt Tokimune was perhaps too nice a guy). Naturally, Tokimune would feel somewhat embarrassed by his father's loud or brash behavior and would be overly apologetic on his behalf. I would argue that from a Japanese perspective, Tokimune's comments about his father, demonstrate his good manners (ettiquette) much more than they actually say or imply anything about Sokaku's mental health. Given the Japanese cultural context, it’s much safer to say that Tokimune was more concerned about not offending anyone than really telling it like it is. Living and training in the culture of Japan can help give us much valuable insight into interpreting both the foreign manners and words of the Japanese, in this case especially koryu masters.

For example, if I go to my friend's house in Kodaira, and she spends all day making her family's best traditional meal for me, her specialty. She will say, "It was nothing". Instead of proudly saying, "It's my number one recipe", she'll say "This is my juhachiban (#18) recipe."

If I go next door and meet the neighbors, he'll introduce me not to his beautiful wife, but to his homely wife, his clumsy mother and dimwitted kids. This is not because his wife is ugly, his mother is clumsy and his kids are dumb, but because he want's me to feel much better about my own family.

Now if you remember the story in it’s Japanese context: Sokaku accused Tokimune of associating with a lady who was mentally ill. This obviously drew attention to not only the lady, but the lady’s poor husband. Sokaku recognized the lady for what she was and saw right through her husband’s “secret”. The poor fellow was so embarrased about his wife’s mental health, that he wanted no one else to know that she wasn’t normal. Socially, the couple would be ostracized if her condition ever became suspected, they would never fit in. So what does Tokimune do to salvage this poor man’s face? He jumps in and say’s in effect, "Please excuse my aging, senile father, he’s really the crazy one around here."

In Japan, everyone has to fit in. You don't want to stand out, or rock the boat by being different; either abnormal or exceptional. Sokaku was sharp, he WAS exceptional, and he tended to be rather quick to the point. He was an uncompromising old time samurai in a modern world, he didn’t beat around the bush, and he stood out like a sore thumb. I'm sure Tokimune was constantly apologizing and making escuses for his father's behavior, but in the cultural context and ettiquette of Japan, these were not likely statements of Tokimune’s actual sentiments, but rather of his good manners and humility. It is pure and unfounded speculation to call into question Sokaku's mental health by taking these comments out of their context. First of all, it accomplishes and proves nothing, and furthermore it's disrespectful, and unpolite to denigrate the memory of someone who's no longer living. Especially someone of Sokaku's great stature and genius as a martial artist. And finally, that is how false rumours are started and misunderstandings are propagated.

If we rationalize Tokimune's comments about his father's behavior being due to senility or worse, then we'll naturally start to question also the claims that Tokimune made about his father's martial and perceptional abilities as well. Anything that sounds rather phenomenal we’d take with a pinch of salt and say, "Well, you know, Tokimune sensei was getting old and he was just bragging about his father's abilities, and exaggerating a bit, blah, blah, blah..." But while a westerner would naturally boast in pride of their father’s abilities and even exaggerate them, a properly cultured Japanese would understate their father’s abilities, and play them down. At any rate, the speculative Western approach only serves to diminish Sokaku's and Tokimune's memories, by removing them from their context.

Likewise any attempt to learn the koryu outside of understanding their cultural context will also lead to the gradual misunderstanding and diminishing (watering down) of the transmission of the teachings of that tradition. That doesn’t mean that effective martial training can’t take place outside of Japan, but it does mean that certain aspects (and perhaps vital ones) could be lost, marginalized or misunderstood outside of their proper context. I might also add that the same can happen in modern day Japan too. With all the rapid changes taking place in Japan over the last 100+ years, there’s plenty of room for misunderstanding context there too. It only underscores the importance of having a knowledgable, capable and qualified instructor. It just so happens that most of the headmasters of classical traditions are still located in Japan. If you want koryu, don’t speculate about it, immerse yourself in the context and train!

Kudos to Stanley for getting right to the po

[JosephBlow]

Hi Brently, thanks for your note.

Please do not interpret this as my being an advocate of this latest group claiming to be the successor. I do not care who the successor is because I don't do Daitoryu. While I wonder whether it's worth the time to bother you with a couple of points, here they are.

Folks disputing Kondo's claims might not have an insurmountable hurdle when they challenge the soke dairi.

The way I've heard this spun is that the Soke Dairi was given for some specific purpose -- like a narrow power of attorney. The argument goes that soke dairi is not a formal title in Daitoryu (unless Tokimune made it one) and as a result it does not automatically bump Kondo above the other kyoju dairi as the man to lead the system.

The menkyo kaiden, on the other hand, has carried official weight in the ryuha for a long time. That Kondo has one is not the issue in this case. The issue Kondo's detractors make is whether Kondo got the menkyo kaiden under shady circumstances by pulling it out of a senile teacher.

Kondo says no, and so does Pranin and so do a large number of Kondo's contemporaries both in Daitoryu and in other arts. I have no reason to disbelieve Kondo.

On the other hand, some detractors say he did. Both sides have financial and political interests vested in the answer and that's why the dispute is going on. "Disrespectful" inquiry as a consumer of Tokimune Sensei's condition is completely appropriate, whether one's a Japanese or a Westerner. If the allegation is true, this same thing goes on all the time in the West when a cunning beneficiary of a will gets the soon-to-be dead guy to beef up the beneficiary's take before he struggles for that final gasp.

Which is where my complaint comes in. Someone in the dispute (or at least that someone's students) is inflating his credentials. If folks were on the mat enough, there wouldn't be a need to worry. When they're collecting dues, however, that's usually when the problems arise (and it's been this way for hundreds of years, incidentally).

If this were to go to litigation, the arguments would probably be phrased in terms of lost economic opportunity because of the other's fraud. I suppose defamation is a possibility, but again the argument would probably have to be phrased in terms of destroyed economic potential because of the reputational damage.

Again, please understand that I have no reason to disbelieve Kondo Sensei's claims. If I were practicing Daitoryu, I would train with Kondo Sensei because he is the teacher closest to me. If I lived in Osaka, I would go somewhere else.

Nevertheless, if I were appointed Grand Pooh Bah of the Mooselodge-ryu (this only a generic example, not an insult on Daitoryu) and someone else was trying to steal the system, then I would probably get pissed too.

I posted because someone asked about why Pranin-san wrote what he did at the time he did it and I reported some of the rumors I'd heard to explain. It's only an explanation of the arguments, it isn't advocacy because I don't know the answer and I don't have any serious interest in who is right.

Best Regards,

Rich B

[This message has been edited by JosephBlow (edited 06-16-2000).]

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

I agree with most of Mr. Keen's post, but do not see the shame in discussing the possibility of an illness contributing to confusion around succession of an art. I also see nothing wrong with speculating, as this "voices thoughts" and hopefully leads to the research of facts based on the conclusions/possibilities produced from the speculation and discussion.

I wasn't trying to imply anything in my previous post, and there is nothing to read between the lines. When someone is unfortunate enough to be struck with a mentally degenerative disease, they often forget events and things they have said before, as well as people.

It sounds like Kondo Sensei's right to lead the family line is ligitimate (documented) and the dates as noted appear to be before the aledged illness anyway. But I have heard of headmasters of other styles who have unknowingly promised Sokeship to one person verbally and then told another person later something else. It's these verbal comments and the possibility of "second thoughts" that can lead to confusion by some, and outright fraud by others who may claim to have been promised something verbally by someone who is known to have a memory problem or has already passed.

If I remember correctly, there was also some last minute changes/confusion as to whether Kisshomaru Ueshiba was to inherit Aikido or not (which he did) as Ueshiba Sensei got closer to the end of his life. These kinds of things happen, and while it is sad to see in a reputable teacher, it is all part of the life cycle and I don't see why it should be kept hush hush - especially when it is public knowledge.

The other thing is that Tokimune Takeda Sensei passed away rather recently, so there are plenty of students and instructors with first hand experience that could (if they chose) speak about what things were like during that time. It is not unrealistic that we might gain a reasonable idea of the events by discussing the subject with some of these people, rather than acting like it never happened.

Typically a ryu-ha is a family line of transmission, so the Soke tend to be specific about either passing the art to a blood relative or if necessary to an "adopted" family member. This *could* be the reason why T.Takeda S. gave Kondo Sensei "Soke dairi" ("substitute for the headmaster" - authority to act in an official capacity on behalf of the headmaster) as opposed to Soke. Was Kondo Sensei supposed to groom a Takeda for the Soke when they were old enough or qualified technically to do so?

BTW, Menkyo Kaiden is a license of transmission, which is why it is in the "official Daito ryu curriculum", whereas titles like Soke dairi are administrative titles, and may or may not be included in documentation as such.

No offense intended towards anyone, and I'm not supporting outside claims to the family line of Daito ryu, just interested in discussing the circumstances of the pass of leadership a bit and why there might be *any* room for argument over who is rightfully in leadership.

Regards,


------------------
Nathan Scott
Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo (http://www.shinkendo.com)
Tsuki Kage dojo (http://www.tsuki-kage.com)
Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum (http://www.swordforum.com/jsa)

[This message has been edited by Nathan Scott (edited 06-16-2000).]

[MarkF]

Brently,
I did say I based it on that series of interviews by Stan Pranin, and I did not take anything out of context, at least, no more than you have. I simply brought up a point, that if there were any questions of Tokimune's health problems, it should be easy to prove, if necessary (personally, I have found it a constant that the great teachers of anything cannot be judged by what children say, just as some of Sokaku's feats of "magic" cannot be verified with any accuracy. It is the same in the interviews with M. Ueshiba and K. Ueshiba. I also made it clear it came from said interviews. It seemed another justification for something was being made on an assumption which should be easily verified.

If anything, the Japanese are known to care for their aging parents, something Americans could learn from. But since questions were being asked, I thought something from the horse's mouth would be appropriate. Call it a coincidence or exaggeration, it did come from those interviews, and the inference is easily understandable. Possibly I should have copied all five of those interviews and have let everyone make there own assumptions, however, a question of someone's health who died only sevn years ago, was, again, brought up. A lot of facts about father and son, in this case, have been called fact when it came from Tokimune's mouth, and many of these statements have indeed come directly from these interviews. During the last "great debate" on daito ryu having the one and only true aiki of a few months ago, I found many of the "facts" published came straight from the son's words as gospel. However, you have brought up a point of how one should read something, but no new, or old, information was forthcoming. People talk about the dead all the time without being accused of lacking "resect for the dead." How T. Takeda explained his father's behavior was not the point, but rather how far some will go to believe obvious exaggerations of what had happened. It was only a discussion of the ancient tea ceremony which brought about the outburst of S. Takeda in the first place. It was not meant with any disrespect, only a seeming coincidence of both father and son suffering some form of dementia. This is hardly news. Living in Japan had nothing to do with it, but if people are going to point out these exaggerations as the truth, then a discussion about it is certainly no shame.

Sincerely,

------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

[MarkF]

BTW: I have also found the website in question to be "questionable" to say the least.

------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Nathan Scott]

For those following this topic, you might want to swing over to the Aikido Journal BBS and follow some of the recent developments and new posts by Mr. Pranin regarding the history:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000013.html
http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000018.html

I for one can see where there is room for confusion now, and also that it is a sticky situation.

Although the issue of Daito ryu leadership may not be resolved in the next couple of weeks, we may find ourselves with more facts or at least first hand information than we did before, and that will have achieved something.

ando,

Guy-san, thanks for the info. I hope the transition to the nidai Soke is smooth when the time comes!

Regards,