No kashiwade allowed?

[Charuzu]

Hello,
I am a member of a kenjutsu dojo in Auburn and in the dojo there is a kamidana. When ever I was there I did kashiwade (2x clap 2x bow clap) ether before or after class (as not to disrupt class or to offent others religious beleaf). Sensei asked me to write for homework what it was and why do it. In responce he said that:

-"It is a formal opening/closing of class"
-"It is called Reishiki" not kashiwade
-"[...]It is a formal act, and it is also a privilage reserved for the teacher or seinor-most student present. To do this without being requested to do so by the teacher would br extreamly rude and presumptious of any kyu rank student. It would also be constructed to be an actual insult to the teacher or the seinor students. Therefore, no one should be doing this as a personal ceremony, or as he or she enters or leavs the Dojo; only by the teacher or the student as designated by the teacher"

I thought that this was kind of odd. he also said in his responce "often done with wooden clappers", I have never heard of this?

Are I wrong about this?
Could someone please clear this up for me???

I also looked up Reishiki and it says that it just is etiquette.

Sources:
http://www.innerstairway.com/reishiki/reishikitopics.htm
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reishiki&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dreishiki%26num%3D20%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26oe%3DEUC-JP%26inlang%3Dja%26c2coff%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG
http://kenjutsukai.tripod.com/KOMnew/reishiki.htm

I have also decided to post this in the shinto part of the fourm as well

[hyaku]

Well you have lost me a bit there......

Most of the dojo that have a Shinto altar in Japan have it in memory of a departed sensei. When we bow to the shrine it's to the memory of that departed teacher. Of course anybody can pay homage if they are there individually. That's the whole idea. I could pop across the the shrine I can see from front door and do it now if I wanted to.

But of course we generally do it as a group at the beginning and end of practice. "Not separately". You really dont need to do a seperate bow when people are there or coming. A bow at the door is sufficient.

Sempai generally does this. But it brings up an interesting point. Because as a non Japanese some dojo's don't actually expect me to do this. They would consider it odd!

Also Budo is closely linked with Hachiman, Yasakuni and Japanese shrines. We do Hono Embu (shrine demonstrations) and pay homage there. Because of this some do choose to have an altar in the dojo.

But most have the national flag. We/They bow to the flag and sing that the Emperor should reign on for a thousand years (Kimi ga yo).

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Kimi_Ga_Yo

Some teachers have got in trouble for not doing this in schools.

Reishiki generally refers to methods of ettiquette. This again is not restricted to the dojo, It's just done there. It's polite to "be polite" and use etiquette all over Japan. In the dojo it makes the difference between gentlemanly conduct and barbarism.

We do eat and drink in the dojo. There are many organized budo community get togethers where the mother's of kids make food and drink that we sit down and eat there.

[sunny]

I think I may have a slight idea of what you are talking about Charuzu, but not enough to comment on it with any validity. I look forward to any more posts on the subject though...
Best regards,

[Charuzu]

I made a Typo. When doing kashiwade you Bow 2x clap 2x bow.

Sorry 'bout that.

[Charuzu]

I might try to have Barrish E-mail him but other than that... I have decided to let this rest.

RIP

[Brian Owens]

One possiblilty is that the teacher at the school has placed the kamidana without an understanding of what it is. He sees it as part of the trappings of his martial art, without a connection to Shinto.

Bowing to the kamidana may, indeed, be part of the reishiki of his dojo, but all such activity is not neccesarily part of the reishiki of kenjutsu.

However, it is his dojo. If he prefers that you not practice Shinto rituals in front of what is, after all, a Shinto accoutrement, that's up to his discretion. I think he'd be better off with a secular "shomen" rather than a religious "kamiza" in that case, though.

(I assume he is neither Japanese nor a Shinto adherent.)

Just my 2-cents' worth.

[Brian Owens]

BTW, here is a selection from the vocabulary section of a Web page on Shinto:
Kamidana: Household altar (literally, god-shelf) provided to enshrine a deity in the home of a Shinto believer. It is customary for amulets (taima) from Ise no Jingû, a local tutelary deity, or a nearby shrine to be enshrined on this altar and for worship and offerings of food to be giving each morning and evening.

http://www2.kokugakuin.ac.jp/ijcc/wp/bts/images/kamidana.jpg

Kashiwade: One of the formal manners of performing worship in Shinto. One raises the hands to chest level and claps. The way of clapping and the number of times vary.
The whole page can be found at: Basic Terms of Shinto (http://www2.kokugakuin.ac.jp/ijcc/wp/bts/index.html)


Also, from an anime enthusiast's site (http://armucheehigh.floydboe.net/Organizations/anime/religion.htm):
Anime characters can sometimes be witnessed performing the Shintô method of prayer, where they clap twice and bow their heads. This is a simplified version of the method used when worshipping at a shrine, where the worshipper will first wash their hands and mouth, give an offering to the shrine, then bow twice, clap twice, bow and pray. Clapping one's hands in worship is known as kashiwade.

HTH.

[Charuzu]

Brian, he isn't japanese or shinto as you guessed, bt I have decided to not confront him about him about this anymore and to just let it die. However, I have to thank all the people here for haveing a intelegent dissussion. The other fourm that I posted this at got way out of hand.

Thank you
Thank you