examples of koryu snobs?

[Dave Lowry]

A member writes of a recent conversation with a new student who suggests the koryu bugei are the province of elitists who “look down” on others and who are snobs in regards to their arts.
A lengthy gallery of philippics results from the post, decrying modern budo, defending elitism, appealing to the virtues of humility, and so on. And on. All of the replies, to my puzzlement, seem to accept prima facie the “fact” that koryu are indeed elitist and encourage snobbery or that at least its representatives display such attitudes.

Am I the only reader who wonders why the original contributor to this topic didn’t respond to the newcomer’s statement by asking for some examples of this alleged elitism?

Given that there are probably fewer than a hundred or so exponents of legitimate koryu in the United States, how on earth did a newcomer have intercourse with any of them to have formed such a firsthand view of snobbery? Given that a large percentage of those exponents, for various reasons, are involved in more than one koryu (as well as in the modern budo which they are accused of disdaining), how could they reasonably insist any one ryu is “the best” or that a koryu is “better” than some modern form?

Which ryu and which individuals representing them demonstrate elitism and exactly how do they do it? In more than 30 years of experience with koryu, in meeting a few headmasters of them in Japan and many of their senior members, I have not really encountered this presumed elitism. I’m curious that a “new student” would have such a radically different perception, more so that so many contributors on the topic here would as well. It would be informative for some of them to relate the details, providing some examples of legitimate practitioners of legitimate ryu who affected these attitudes.

[Jeff Cook]

Dave,

I personally have not met anyone that fits that description. My responses were directed towards posts that were in support of elitism, and were not assumptive concerning the allegedly pervasive koryu elitism.

I have met many elitist martial artists, but as you say, there aren't very many legitimate koryu practitioners in the U.S (myself included).

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Kit LeBlanc]

In my opinion maybe "exclusive" is the better word.

Koryu are taught to smaller groups, so individual instruction is better dispensed. Many koryu teachers have few students. Those few students are tested in terms of character for some time before being taught "the good stuff."

Not to say that some modern budo dojo do not have the same sort of things, but since there are far fewer koryu teachers and practitioners, practice would be more exclusive than elitist.

Since I think most koryu teachers prefer to keep it exclusive, some may see this as elitism when it is really just the teachers preferred way to teach.

Kit LeBlanc

[socho]

Hello,
If this is Dave Lowry, author, welcome to the forum. I just received one of your books as a present, looking forward to browsing through it.
In any case, I don't think you will get much response in asking for specific examples of elitist behavior or attitude. Let's accept that it exists, and then argue whether it is justifiable or not. I think that is where some of the previous posts (mine included) were going.
Justifiable? No. Given that this is the koryu forum, I don't wish to alienate anyone or talk bad about any art in particular. I am talking about the attitude of the practioner. Pride is ok, elitism, to me, equates to close-mindedness. Not a good way to progress in any art.



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Dave Drawdy

[Jeff Cook]

I don't believe anyone participating in these discussions is truly an elitist. The koryu instructors I know are certainly not elitists nor exclusivists.

The elitists I have met have been a sad lot; without exception they have had their heads jammed into the sand, and shield their lack of self-esteem behind their rigid interpretations. This is really a shame, as they are good martial artists, and the only thing that keeps them from achieving greatness is themselves.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

It's been my experience that the most elite and snobbish martial arts instructors are those who claim koryu origins but have little or no real koryu experience. Possibly, the so-called new student may have encountered one of these who claimed to be of the koryu school but in fact was not. It seems to me that their attitude of elitism is more of a cover for their questionable credentials. Those who have actually studied koryu generally seem pretty open about it.

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Don Cunningham

[TommyK]

Greetings to all,

I am honored to reply to a post from Mr. Lowry. I have been a fan of your writings for years.

First off, please understand I am the originator of the thread concerning suppossed elitism of Koyru practitioners. It came about in an after-class discussion with several new students in our school of Korean Karate and Self-Defense.

As we do not practice Koyru arts , I answered their questions on the general topic of Koyru arts. One of their number, made this comment and I did inquire where they received this impression.

The answer was 'around'. On further inquiry this meant various sites on the internet and talking with friends of friends who practice various martial arts in general.

I did not mean to create the impression that I was making this statement, rather I was just curious as to what the E-Budo community, at-large, thought of this statement.

I have the greatest respect for all those who practice any martial art that teaches something useful, especially Koyru arts. In the past I have asked Wayne Muromoto, of 'Furyu' fame, if he could recommend any Koyru systems in and around NYC. As, I would like to sample what these arts are about. Wayne did not know of any Koryu systems in NYC, but now I am happy that this thread allows me to ask you, and any other E-Budo member where a Koyru system exists in the NYC area.

As I close, let me reiterate that I have the greatest respect for Mr. Lowry and the Koryu arts, and wish to share that respect by having someone of your stature reply to all of us on this specific thread.

Thank you,

TommyK

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Tommy K. Militello

[Joseph Svinth]

It has been my experience that mastering the skill of putting a sword away without cutting one's fingers does not always translate into equal skill at dealing with family or coworkers. Thus it is not impossible that some koryu practitioners are arrogant twits.

It also has been my experience that when one seeks quantifiable stories of rudeness and arrogance, one asks face-to-face, in letters, or in e-mail, rather than on a public forum. So perhaps that is why people have not named names.

But I could be wrong; perhaps koryu masters are truly so much different from the rest of us.

Meanwhile, as long as we are discussing quantification, I am curious to know the source of the datum there are only "a hundred or so exponents of legitimate koryu in the United States." Is there some published roster? If so, where does one obtain a copy?

Personally, though, I'd guess that the number of legitimate practitioners is measured in hundreds rather than tens. Donn Draeger, for example, claimed sixteen students in 1976. Assuming normal class sizes and turnover, that implies dozens of students in that lineage alone. If this is true, then why downplay the actual numbers? Elitism is certainly one explanation that comes to mind.




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Joe
http://ejmas.com

[Tetsutaka]

Does the phrase "fewer than a hundred or so exponents of legitimate koryu in the United States" not also denote a level of elitism? I think so. I also think it is well deserved and right on the money.

People are confusing "elitist" with "arrogant". The difference is slim, but it is indeed there. The definition I found was:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, ladies and gentlemen, but there is nothing wrong with calling koryu elite ,per se. In fact, koryu [in terms of Japanese MA] is indeed the elite, by definition. Please take a moment to consider this, if you have not already.

The difficulty lies in the "bagage" that comes along with the definition - a pejorative connotation, if you will.

I have personally seen monumental arrogance on the part of certain budoka that do possess koryu scrolls. Part of the arrogance is the mistaken impression that the elite nature inherent in koryu traditions gives him the right to display such unabashed arrogance.

Elite and arrogant - two different things that often go hand-in-hand. That is not the fault of the entity itself [in this case - koryu arts] but in the trappings and wrappings brought on by the person that seeks one and only displays the other.



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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[John Lindsey]

Hi Dave,

Welcome finally to E-Budo http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif. It took a year to get you to post... http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif.

Over the years, I have come across a few snobby types, but they turned out not to be koryu, even though they claimed they were.

Some might say that the late Donn Draeger was very strong about his views, but he has been gone for awhile now, and I would not say that he was snobby.

Dave, I think you might agree that since the 1970's koryu has had an uphill battle in many ways with the established martial arts community. Maybe the early koryu folks outside of Japan was being defensive against those who were claiming their arts were of no use in the modern world. Some might have seen this as being snobby?

[Tetsutaka]

So do we agree all that it is no the art per se that creates the arrogance, but the people that are attracted to it that bring it along? So we are talking about the people, not the arts themselves? Needless to say, there is a difference.

In my experience, the vast majority of truly unapologeticly arrogant individuals has consistently come not from koryu arts, but from judo. It seems to me that every opportunity I have taken to talk to one of them [teacher or student], they seem to get in a groove of spouting off like they are the last true samurai of the world. This kind of experience just puts me off.

Then, when I tell them I practice jujutsu, I get this look like "how revoltingly unrefined" from them. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif Now mind you, this has been experience with less than a dozen people over 15 years. But a recent encounter with a local dojo has raised my hackles a bit.

There's a judo/karate dojo here that calls itself American Samurai (http://www.americansamurai.com), that starts with <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>American Samurai is a traditional martial arts training center.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Then when you click past their splash page to the dojo page, you see: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We have all the information you need, including downloadable forms, for our upcoming State Qualifier Tournament and Referee Course (May 19-20th, 2000).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ugh! Referees? Tournaments? ARG!

Then you look down the page and see that they teach "Shotokan karate and Kodokan judo". Oh, that explains it. I think.

[b][image from site removed t oprotect the innocent...]


Perhaps it's just me, but I equate "traditional" with at the very least very hard work for not much reward other than a job well done. On a more "cultural" level, I expect traditional to mean "how they do it in Japan", when the word pertains to Japanese martial arts.

Is this traditional? Like I said - Ugh.

Perhaps if my personal experiences would have not induced me to a heightened sensitivity, I might not hold this opinion. In an effort to be fair, I have dedicated myself to meeting as many martial artists in this area as I can, in hopes of some day reporting a change of personal opinion in this regard.

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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-05-2000).]

[Margaret Lo]

Mr. Haynes:
surely it was not necessary to post the picture from the club you castigate, especially since children are depicted.

-M-



[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-05-2000).]

[Tetsutaka]

You're right, Ms. Lo,

People can see it for themselves. I'll remove the directlink to the image, but the site link will remain for those interested.

..and please, call me Houston. "Mr Haynes" is my dad. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-05-2000).]

[Margaret Lo]

Will do Houston.

[Dave Lowry]

Mr. Svinth: My estimate of US koryu practitioners may have been too low. Fine. Quadruple it. Quintuple it. The number would still be so miniscule as to render the possibility our newcomer friend could have drawn his conclusion about koryu based upon firsthand interaction with these individuals most unlikely. (Wouldn’t depend too much on the supposition that Draeger’s “16 students” implies a burgeoning koryu population here, incidentally. A)not all of those students were Americans. B)one of them, one of my teachers, since 1976 has had exactly 2 students, not exactly an exponential explosion of Malthusian proportions.)

My possibly lowball figure of koryu adepts no more suggests elitism than would the simple observation that, say, not many Americans are devoted to the collection of erotic Hummel figurines. Exactly like the koryu, these x-rated cherubs would be exiguous, eccentric, and appealing and available to a limited audience. Mr. LeBlanc has made this point well above, explaining a crucial distinction between elitism and exclusivity.

Mr. Lindsey: I don’t see any evidence that what little koryu is practised in the US has been involved in any battles, especially not battles for recognition. Non-commercial and limited by nature in the way they are taught, the ones I know of go to some lengths to maintain a low profile and protect their privacy. That this site receives regular inquiries about finding these groups would indicate recognition is not among the priorities of koryu dojo in this country.

Koryu do struggle with a problem of perception, which is precisely my point. Frauds have co-opted the image of koryu. They have slapped on a coat of machismo, “Oriental mysticism,” and Clavell-like samurai romanticism. Furnishings are provided with extensive terminology mimicked from the real thing, preposterous mannerisms and etiquette, and lineages ranging from the untraceable to the absurd. These seedy properties are then advertised through an appeal to snobbery and elitism, to those prospective tenants most susceptible to the come-on: wanna-be “Anjin-san,” martially-inclined Japanophiles, and those pathetic souls who fantasize participation in the rare and unusual, whether it be Tibetan Buddhism or koryu, will somehow confer on them a mantle of the special and unique.

I can readily believe ersatz koryu incorporate elitism. It’s probably an important part of their allure. But that is a very different proposition from the one that seems to be accepted by many e-budo members without any support of evidence; that snobbery is inherent in koryu mentalities or is a common trait of its practitioners.

(As for my not posting previously, Mr. Lindsey; like the kid everyone considered mute until he finally complained about the eggs at breakfast one morning, up until now everything’s been just fine.)

[Tetsutaka]

Good points all, Mr Lowry.

BTW, I think that was Beethoven who supposed to have been mute until he was four or so... anohter urban legend?

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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[DJM]

Hi..
I'd like to say a couple things - firstly a big welcome to Dave, of who's work I am a very great admirer (more so considering Moving Toward Stillness inspired me to return to Aikido), even if it did take some burnt eggs to prompt him to make an appearance. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif
Secondly, and I'll apologise if I sound like I'm preaching, but I think that many of the problems that have been raised above are a result of predjudice (in the sense of pre-judging) and stereotyping.
Not, I hasten to add, necessarily conscious choices. Indeed, they are a weakness that I suspect we all succumb to, to greater or lesser degrees.
After all, what are the issues raised in the above discussion? That the koryu arts foster elitism, or arrogance? That there are so few exponents that we cannot make an accurate judgement?
I'd like to suggest that both of the above points are equally worthless http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif, that we should only ever judge people - should we feel the compulsion to do even that - as individuals. Granted that individuals may often share common traits when in the same vicinity (i.e. in the same dojo, or studying the same style) but I feel it's a mistake - even if a common one (and one which I commit myself, all too regularly) - to attempt any form of generalisation on people.
If I may make the analogy, it's very much like walking through a forest, assuming all the trees are the same. It makes the trip a lot less interesting...
*dismounts soapbox*
http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif
Peace,
David

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Poetry of Birds,
A Thousand Voice Melody,
Dancing on the Waves
-- David Marshall

[Jeff Cook]

Dave, thanks for sharing your perspective.

Again, the few practitioners of authentic koryu I have met have been neither elitist (implying superiority) nor exclusive (implying disdain towards any other approach or concept).

As you succinctly stated, it seems that the only folks who fit that bill are the insecure ones that try to claim a ridiculous/unbelievable lineage to an obscure koryu past.

I have studied ancient, classical, modern, and combative (modern military) arts, and I can say without exception that most of these troubled individuals fell into one of two categories: classical arts and modern military combative arts.

The funny thing is, the new western student, for the most part, could really care less about the history/lineage of an art (when starting out). They come to a class with specific needs/desires in mind, and they want to know if those needs can be met. I still cannot understand why anyone would feel the need to inflate their history and/or their art's history.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Rennis]

For what the opinions of a newbie to koryu are worth, from my point of view , I can see a couple of sources for the "Koryu Snob". One is the mainstream martial arts media, where a number of people have suddenly become "experts" in koryu (the frauds Mr Lowry and others have refered to) and are spreading their misconceptions around to the general martial arts public, who probably don't care one way or the other. The general reader probably has just seen certain viewpoints expressed a number of times and are reacting to them through how they view martial arts (and I suspect the average reader sees no reason to move to Japan just to train in some weird art when some guy is claiming to teach it down the street). As Mr. Lowry points out, few people have had first hand contact, but everyone seems to be writing about it (at least they were a few years ago, I haven't even seen an issue of Black Belt, etc in two years), thus it is no surprise that views on koryu have become all twisted.

I think the other source is the students who want to study some form of koryu and can't. These people have probably been influenced by the works of some of the various wannabe koryu "masters". Also alot of these people may be the same people who dojo hop to whatever various art is popular at the time. Since they usually can just hit the newest "dojo" and train right away, they probably don't like reading things like Diane Skoss' "If You Want Koryu, Come to Japan" article. How can you readily write off the opinion of someone who is readily qualified to know.... "Ahh Karate and Aikido works here, so there's no reason Koryu won't. They are just snobs cause they were lucky and trained in Japan for a long time.". I know when I personally first read that article, I was torn between the fact that I knew she was right and the fact that it was still something I didn't really want to hear, as at the time I had no means of getting over here. In my case it was a good motivator to get off my butt and get over here, but other people may just ignore what they don't want to hear and dismiss it with "snobbery" type comments.

Personally, I'm not sure if there is really a way to really stop the "snob" comments. Again, using my very minimal personal experience, before I came here, I had read all the right koryu related stuff, I had studied Japanese history, culture and some langauge. I'd even visited Japan briefly. I thought I had a good idea what I was in for, but it ended up being very different. Not wrong, just different. Its like the difference between living in Japan and just seeing a 30 minute tv program on Japanese culture. Sure the information is right, but how you understand it is completely different when you are in the middle of it, rather than the comfort of your living room. Now I readily agree that the best way to learn koryu is to come over here, and, no surprise, I've been called a snob for it. Oh well, off to the dojo....

Rennis Buchner

[This message has been edited by Rennis (edited 06-06-2000).]

[hyaku]

I would just like to say that the information available in Engish about Koryu is just the tip of the iceberg.

Nothing would please me more than to see more Westerners coming to Japan to learn Japanese and study these arts. Japanese people are so obsessed with America (they don't know any other country exists outside Japan) that few people are interested in promulgating it.

I can assure readers and contributors to e-budo that sadly the roots of the arts are gradually dissapearing as the older teachers pass on. In future all we will be left with is a sportlike art unless more people take more of an interest.

Also even within Koryu there exists this unfortunate human frailty of too many people wanting to be a chief instead of an indian, which produces spits within groups and ryu.

I say don't complain about snobbery. Get over here. practice and help!
.................................

Hyakutake

[MarkF]

I think I shall back my elitist, judoka backside outta here!

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[hyaku]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hyaku:
[B]I would just like to say that the information available in Engish about Koryu is just the tip of the iceberg.

Nothing would please me more than to see more Westerners coming to Japan to learn Japanese and study these arts. Japanese people are so obsessed with America (they don't know any other country exists outside Japan) that few people are interested in promulgating it.

I can assure readers and contributors to e-budo that sadly the roots of the arts are gradually dissapearing as the older teachers pass on. In future all we will be left with is a sportlike art unless more people take more of an interest.

Also even within Koryu there exists this unfortunate human frailty of too many people wanting to be a chief instead of an indian, which produces spits within groups and ryu.

I say don't complain about snobbery. Get over here. practice and help!
.................................

Hyakutake http://www2.saganet.ne.jp/sword

Tosa Eishin updated June 1st. Start of 35 pages of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Ipponme-Seiza Nobu

[Rennis]

Hyaku said
"I can assure readers and contributors to e-budo that sadly the roots of the arts are gradually dissapearing as the older teachers pass on. In future all we will be left with is a sportlike art unless more people take more of an interest."

Now I don't know jack about koryu compared to people like Hyaku (I don't really know jack about koryu at all really), but even I have come face to face with this myself when Peter Boylan and I stumbled across an Iai ryuha (or maybe remains of a ryuha would be more correct) in Shiga last year. All that was left were the techniques and only 2 people knew them. It wasn't small because of snobbery (heck they were more than happy to show us the techniques and tell us what they knew), it was small because no one has any interest or bothered to ask about it. Even the branch of Hoki ryu I am in only has about 5 people currently involved and I've only even met 2 of them. If elite involves having very few members, then alot of koryu are elite by default simply due to lack of interest. One of my favorite quotes in this area involves a discussion between my jo sensei and one of my sempai (who has been doing iai for years and seems pretty knowledgable about Budo). Sensei, "OK, next year I think its time we start working on some of the koryu Jo stuff". Sempai, with look of shock and panic on his face, "You mean there's koryu too?!?!".


"I say don't complain about snobbery. Get over here. practice and help!"

Amen

Rennis Buchner

[MarkF]

I was going to stay out of this completely, and indeed, I did say so on my rather short previous post, but this discussion concerns something, not dying, but which is dead. It Doesn't exist except in the minds fo those who can "prove" his/her "koryu art" exists. My experience with the so-called classics is limited, but I was involved long enough to know a snob when I see one. They even post here, and then denigrate their own students for "giving away the secret" of the art, the "ura." They make unconscionable demands on these students, but partake in the very thing they see as objectionable. Most here who were around during this subject matter in the Aikijj threads know of which I speak. When the "jig is up," they suddenly agree with your assessments and then disappear....only to return everytime someone rides the soapbox again. But I am not going to give examples because others, including Mr. PJ Popie have made this patently clear. On a sidenote, another who fits, at least in the elitest snobbery department is Mr. Houston Haynes. In one short phrase, he paints a picture of all judoka as snobs. I thought this thread was to be based on koryu or tradional arts. Oh, I forgot, judo is a combative "sport" and could not possibly be taken seriously here. Well, excuuuuse me. More than thirty-seven years at doing something is not to be taken seriously because it is not koryu. Traditional? Whatever. What is the difference? And according to Houston, judoka are snobs. Every last one of us, and that is based on conversation with judoka only known to Mr. Haynes, and with proof of it from a website. Well, we all know that a website is all the proof you need of something to make it true. My fault. I thought this thread was supposed to be a discussion, not attacks on a group based on the meanderings of one who "knows."

The fact is that koryu is dead and has been for a long time. Even people who are honest enough to admit it are not allowed this priviledge of taking a rest on all the rhetoric, but instead, is pushed into a position of "playing along" so one's students are happy, and may give the ultimate salute to newer arts which are essentially older ryu, but without the the seething hatred for the public disemmination of "something for everyone." Sure, I will go so far to say that even in what I do, the snobs outnumber the true "artist" three to one, four to one. Dave Lowry gives even that concerning the numbers of koryu students, something which said students utilize as advertising what they do by advertising that we don't advertise and thus do not want any students. Right. So I would think, if one is to believe this, that koryu "masters" self-publish through vanity press and give away their words, but only to the consumer of koryu arts. It seems I recall an AJJ master who has published a book, not for the income, but so that the "secrets" be known to a wider audience, but the ura and hiden mokuroku known to only the "better quality" of students. I've also got a bridge for sale.

So what is the truth? Traditional/classcal bugei (Mr. Lowry's word) have been dying out since they first appeared, and continue to do so, but with the names changed to protect the innocent. The lineage thing is such a monumental lie that every one should give it a chuckle every time he/she steps onto a mat. Just recently I came upon a website which made the claim that the 'te arts, namely karate (Okinawan), was developed in 1500 and then proceeded to name names. Well, the term judo first appeared in the eighteenth century, and this is not in dispute, so why shouldn't judo be lumped in with everything else NOT "modern?" Most koryu trace lineage back at least that far, with "proof" in writing because somebody's son said as much. Well, if that is the measuring stick, then we must also believe that the entire Takeda clan which, on some websites, is "traced" back 1000 years, and that the Takedas could walk through walls. Yep. Says so right here in the scrolls.

Now for the apology for what I have just written. I have no ill will toward anyone who claims anytning, just those whose noses are above the acrid odor of his own stink. This seems to be a constant. I apologize to all those (and there are many) who simply go on and practice the Japanese fighting arts (combative sports as well) with the only intention being to learn, study, teach, or write about it. I have met writers who are so honest that it surely is hurting sales of their work. There are teachers who do not care what others, like myself think, and will ignore this rant, and those of others. I mean no harm to anyone, I am just like the minority of players in this game who seek the truth. No doubt that I will be proven wrong, as Thomas Jefferson said when he made his assessment of his slaves. It seems today, it is not all that different in the JMA. I say give your facts, say from where they come, and then give your opinion on why they are or are not true. We go to school, read and study history books, which is nothing more than cultivated opinion, and we are told to accept it as gospel. It seems History 101 has not changed much.



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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[MarkF]

A post script to Houston Haynes. Please do not take the above post seriously. I was only responding to the course of this thread, and the acute generalizations which appear seemingly purposeful, but are not. I didn't take your post concerning the one so-called judo website seriously. It was only an excuse to write an opinion, and said opinion was not about you personally.

Best Regards,

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Doug Daulton]

Let me suggest that the koryu are "elusive" rather than "elitist" or "exclusive". I think this terms suits both the koryu schools and perhaps their teachers/exponents.

Are the Koryu dying? Well, one might think so. Much like European fencing or Viking axework, there is not much call for these skills in the modern era, and therefore not much interest in learning them.

As a result, the arts themselves are somewhat elusive because instruction of any kind, much less quality instruction, is so very difficult to find. Once found, legitimate koryu teachers/exponents are generally very particular about who they bring into the fold.

In my experience (primarily with Shinto Muso-ryu Jo), koryu exponents view their study and practice as stewardship of a great cultural asset which happens to be a martial art. As a result they take their practice and the choice of potential students/training partners/successors very seriously. This doesn't mean they are snooty or demeaning.

Again in my experience, seasoned koryu practitioners are very approachable and accessible to folks who respect their arts and take them seriously. Do they have strong opinions about people who, without benefit of genuine experience, prattle on about koryu ... when perhaps these people should just keep their mouths closed? Sure, wouldn't you if people were belittling something you treasured?

To put it another way ... what if, instead of martial artists, we were discussing the rare folks who carry on traditions like the indigo-dyeing of Japan, the dulcimer music of Appalachia or the batik painting of India? If one were to seek these folks out and ask to learn their craft, they would almost certainly be met with the reserved caution we often see in koryu exponents and mistake for elitism. The only difference is, I doubt we'd consider them elitist.

Instead, we probably consider them artisans, committed to perfecting their craft and finding the right people to whom they might pass on the cultural asset with which they were entrusted.

------------------
Doug Daulton

[This message has been edited by Doug Daulton (edited 06-12-2000).]

[Chuck Clark]

Doug,

Good post. I have been trying to think of a way to put the difference between snobbery and elitism and just plain being "picky" about who we share with. You hit it right on the head of the ol nail.

Looking forward to JOhio! See you soon.



------------------
Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
http://www.jiyushinkai.org

[Aaron L. Seay]

From Merriam-Webster

ELITE

1 a: the choice part : CREAM
b the best of a class
c the socially superior part of society
d a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence

SNOB

3 a : one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior
b : one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste


Well, if the elite are superior, and the snobs have an offensive air of superiority, then it would certainly be hard to separate the two. I have to agree with Mark F. on this one...those who remember all of the discussions on the old AJJ threads will recall that certain Koryu practicioners who regularly posted definately considered themselves to be elite (and were considered by the rest of us to be snobs) if for no other reason than they considered all the other arts to be inferior to theirs. A lot of people here ended up being offended by their attitudes!

The question is, just because they consider themselves to be elite, does that necessarily make it so? The answer to that is, it does if they can manage to convince a large segment of the population that it's true. There are many established and well respected writers (Dave Lowry, Diane Skoss, etc) who study Koryu, and actively promote the idea that what they do is special somehow, or superior to that which is not Koryu. "You can't study Koryu unless you come to Japan". That's like saying you can't study Shakespeare unless you go to England. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Others have previously posted that much of Koryu has degenerated into Kubuki-like movements with much of the practical aspects lost; something being studied for historical reasons if for nothing else. We've also all heard the stories of the ukes flopping like fish at the touch of a magical finger. Either of these extremes may serve to classify them as a subculture whose true nature is not fully understood by those not in that subculture. But does that make them Superior (hence, elite)? I don't think so. I know they consider themselves to be "closer to the source" and "less diluted" than the more contemporary, popular, or Gendai arts. And maybe they are. But to me, a measure of superiority would be directly linked to a measure of the combat-effectiveness it is promoting, in whatever arena that may be (boxing in the ring, jujutsu on the street, judo in the Olympics). To that end, I don't believe that any one art or even one category of arts can be singled out as being "superior" to all others; just different within their scope.

------------------
Aaron L. Seay

[This message has been edited by Aaron L. Seay (edited 06-13-2000).]

[Earl Hartman]

This is absurd. If we accept that:

A) koryu are Japanese martial systems established prior to the beginning of the Meiji restoration (the most common working definition, it seems),

and

B) These systems have recognized and identifiable lineages and methods of transmission that can be documented,

then true practitioners of these arts can be easily identified. All true koryu practitoners I know never hesitate to give their credentials to anyone who might RESPECTFULLY ask for them.

People are constantly making the mistake that koryu=ass kicking ability and that the more ass one can kick the more koryu one is. Mr. Seay's post is just the latest example of this ignorance. One has nothing to do with the other. Koryu may or may not have any practical martial application to the present day. Indeed, in their physical manifestations and the weapons they use, koryu are obviously archaic. If one wants to learn how to kill someone on the street, learn assasination or night warfare techniques, or beat up someone in a bar, one would be better served joining an elite commando unit or hanging out with bikers, not learning how to use a sword.
However, if one wants to do one's best to try to understand, as well as is possible nowadays, the culture and mindset of the bushi by practicing the arts they created, in the way the inheritors of the tradition have determined that they must be practiced, one must practice koryu, regardless of what practical value it might or might not appear to have at first glance.

I simply do not understand why people like Mr. Seay, who seems to have no understanding of Japan or koryu at all, are constantly belittling something of which they obviously have no first-hand knowledge. Before one laughs up their sleeves at what appear at first glance to be ridiculous postures and movements it is incumbent on one to research why these things are done as opposed to saying "That looks really stupid. They obviously don't know what they're doing." How in the Sam Hill do you know? Have you talked to anyone in the ryu about why they do things that way?

As far as going to Japan is concerned, one does not have to go to Japan to learn how to kick ass, obviously. You can learn that by hanging out at a local bar. To learn koryu however, one must either go to Japan or train with someone who has. And one has to have a little respect for what one ostensibly wants to practice.

Earl Hartman

[Nathan Scott]

It is strange to hear people who have not trained koryu in Japan state that they don't think it is necessary! What is this opinion based off of? What you've read, heard and assumed from your own experiences?

I don't study koryu formally, so I'm not any help in this regard. But I would tend to give those that have been there and make these claims the benefit of the doubt, personally. Many non-Japanese Koryu Budoka I've talked to have been very sincere in expressing their experiences to me.

FWIW, I've also picked up what felt like snobbish overtones (which could be mistaken for strong opinions) from some things I've read over the years regarding koryu, but I've never heard any of them critisize (inaccurately) modern arts and I've *never* picked it up from Japanese koryu Budoka - only non-Japanese.

Anyway, I've been through this kind of thing with people that argue that they don't feel that tameshigiri is necessary for swordsmanship when they themselves have little to no experience in it. How can they *know* what there is to gain from the experience?

My point is, I'd like to hear from someone who has lived in Japan for a few years studying koryu who feels that it was not necessary to learn and understand the tradition. So far, everyone who has stated this has not been through this themselves, and I suspect that there is a reason why nobody with this kind of experience is popping on the list supporting an opposing view to training koryu in Japan.

There is nothing wrong with not having an opinion, for those of us that don't have direct experience in something.

Regards,

------------------
Nathan Scott
Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo (http://www.shinkendo.com)
Tsuki Kage dojo (http://www.tsuki-kage.com)
Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum (http://www.swordforum.com/jsa)

Nathan, Earl, guys, gals

I really hate to get into this one because it 's so easy to misunderstand peoples positions here. I am convinced that all of you actually agree on most points but it is in the fine interpretation of details that you don't see eye to eye. However,

Nathan, you stated:

"I'd like to hear from someone who has lived in Japan for a few years studying koryu who feels that it was not necessary to learn and understand the tradition. So far, everyone who has stated this has not been through this themselves, and I suspect that there is a reason why nobody with this kind of experience is popping on the list supporting an opposing view to training koryu in Japan."

How about this from Takamura Yukiyoshi's interview in Aikido Journal #117

"Another common misconception is that one must go to Japan to get “real” Japanese martial arts training! I find this a very strange idea. What does the dirt under the floor have to do with the quality of training in a martial arts dojo these days? Some individuals who spend time training in Japan reinforce this idea with fanciful magazine articles and story books on mysterious secrets to be found there. Others make interesting claims that only by immersing oneself in the culture that bore the art originally can one truly understand its essence or spirit. These individuals are welcome to their opinions, but I must disagree with them. I was born in Japan, raised in the pre-World War II culture of Japan, in a family linked for generations to many martial arts. I have since lived many years in Europe, America and back in Japan. I believe some of these Japanophiles are honest and well-meaning martial arts practitioners drawn to the romantic image they have of Japan and its martial traditions. But others I think are Nippon snobs. They believe by making the admittedly great sacrifice of moving to Japan and surviving the difficulties associated with training there, that they are superior students who have received superior training compared to their friends who stay and train in budo or bujutsu outside Japan. If their training is superior, it is the sensei who is superior, not the dirt under the dojo floor. Many superior sensei exist outside Japan today and many inferior sensei exist inside Japan as well.

Training in Japan does not make up for a bad teacher. Train with a superior teacher abroad. Why go to Japan to train with an inferior teacher? Also, to imagine that the post-World War II modern Japan of today bears any significant cultural resemblence to that of feudal era Japan requires one to ignore some most obvious facts. This is especially true if you are training in a traditional bujutsu or koryu. Using the rationale of cultural relevance just makes no sense to me. I have seen incredible changes in the culture of Japan in my lifetime. Feudal Japan of old died long ago. The culture of the classical martial traditions was tied so directly to the feudal era that the end of this era also brought the end of the culture that bore the classical arts. That is just a fact of history. " - Yukiyoshi Takamura

I interpreted that as one of the points Mr Seay was trying to make:

And Earl stated:

"People are constantly making the mistake that koryu=ass kicking ability and that the more ass one can kick the more koryu one is. Mr. Seay's post is just the latest example of this ignorance. One has nothing to do with the other. Koryu may or may not have any practical martial application to the present day. Indeed, in their physical manifestations and the weapons they use, koryu are obviously archaic. If one wants to learn how to kill someone on the street, learn assasination or night warfare techniques, or beat up someone in a bar, one would be better served joining an elite commando unit or hanging out with bikers, not learning how to use a sword.
However, if one wants to do one's best to try to understand, as well as is possible nowadays, the culture and mindset of the bushi by practicing the arts they created, in the way the inheritors of the tradition have determined that they must be practiced, one must practice koryu, regardless of what practical value it might or might not appear to have at first glance."

Earl, My problem with this statement is that you are putting words into Mr Seay's mouth. He did not say that koryu had to be practical in modern application. How about interpreting his words as meaning "still practical in ancient application?"

Read his words again:

"Others have previously posted that much of Koryu has degenerated into Kubuki-like movements with much of the practical aspects lost; something being studied for historical reasons if for nothing else."

This refers to something actually being lost, not just being archaic. Thats different. Support for this position comes again from the interview with Takamura Sensei in his interview with Stan Pranin in Aikido Journal.

Takamura Sensei stated:

"Many classical martial traditions in Japan are now just pretty dancing. It is so sad."

and:

They cling only to antiquated forms and, in this process, often neglect the concepts which form a particular tradition’s core. Some people wish to preserve the arts exactly as they were in olden times. This is commendable, but usually folly. With very fews exceptions, no existing classical school reflects even a fraction of the art’s technical heritage as practiced in times past."

Remember that these words are from a well respected Japanese sensei who began study of several koryu in Japan before WW2.

Earl, You also stated:

"I simply do not understand why people like Mr. Seay, who seems to have no understanding of Japan or koryu at all, are constantly belittling something of which they obviously have no first-hand knowledge."


BTW. Aaron Seay is a longtime student of Takamura Sensei and therfore does know something of which he speaks, although I dont believe he has ever proclaimed himself an expert.

Toby Threadgill / U.S. Kaicho
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai

[Aaron L. Seay]

Margaret:

I have to apologize for my poor writing skills...it's true that the people I mentioned by name (Lowry, Skoss) do write of their experiences and beliefs that Koryu is special; but I have NOT detected any attitude of snobbery or anything like that from any of them; on the contrary, I have nothing but respect for their works and their writings. I was only trying to make the point that what they do serves to further the idea of Koryu being an elite class of M.A. I think this all started with the question of, where do people get this idea? And I think this is one of the answers.

Now, the people I was referring to who WERE acting snobby are the ones we all had the big discussions with on the old AJJ BB, and I won't mention their names, but it was a lot of "If it ain't our aiki, it ain't real aiki" kind of stuff. That's what served to hack a lot of people off.

Also, I liked your counter to the "Shakespear" argument. Interesting point.

One last thing: Earl wrote

"People are constantly making the mistake that koryu=ass kicking ability and that the more ass one can kick the more koryu one is. Mr. Seay's post is just the latest example of this ignorance. One has nothing to do with the other. "

I don't see where I made that mistake. What I said was:

"a measure of superiority would be directly linked to a measure of the combat-effectiveness it is promoting, in whatever arena that may be (boxing in the ring, jujutsu on the street, judo in the Olympics)"

So, for Koryu the arena would be an Ancient Japanese Battlefield, right? I wouldn't ask that a Koryu be "kick-ass" in a street fight, because that's not what it's promoting, is it? Try not to be offended, earl, I'm not "putting down" koryu; I just don't think that it's any more special than any other martial art form (McDojo's notwithstanding, of course)



------------------
Aaron L. Seay

[Margaret Lo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron L. Seay:

There are many established and well respected writers (Dave Lowry, Diane Skoss, etc) who study Koryu, and actively promote the idea that what they do is special somehow, or superior to that which is not Koryu.

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I strongly disagree with your statement. These koryu practitioners whom you mention do indeed promote the idea that the Koryu arts are special.

But it is illogical for anyone to conclude that they would therefore denigrate the modern arts to indulge in some superficial sense of superiority and self-satisfaction.

This is grossly UNFAIR, and highly inaccurate.

In fact, if you have read Mr. Lowry's articles about karate in Black Belt magazine, you might notice that he treats a very modern art with care and good thinking. Nothing in the works of these writers suggests to me that they run around putting anyone else down. They have instead demonstrated a great deal of restraint and circumspection in responding, or rather refraining from responding, to the attacks occurring right here on this board.

Also, it is impossible for any discussion to go forward without an agreed standard as to what Koryu is and what it is not. That discussion cannot take place if everyone has already concluded that they will not listen to certain people they consider "snobs", yet who are also agreed to be highly knowledgable. Who then has their minds closed to new imput?

Finally, I think it is not the superiority complex of the koryu practitioners that is at issue but the inferiority complex of certain other practitioners.

-Margaret Lo-

[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-14-2000).]

[Margaret Lo]

Moreover:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron L. Seay:
"You can't study Koryu unless you come to Japan". That's like saying you can't study Shakespeare unless you go to England. Sorry, I don't buy it.....


[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Shakespeare analogy is interesting. One can say that one need not go to England to study Shakespeare, but most can agree that one does need to learn English.

If I may presume, I think koryu practitioners might take the position that the language of their art is now taught only by certain teachers in Japan and a tiny minority of their students outside of Japan.

So those who have not learned that "language" are not practicing a koryu art, though the things that these other practitioners do may have intrinsic value. Contrast Arthur Miller with the bard.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I don't believe that any one art or even one category of arts can be singled out as being "superior" to all others; just different within their scope.
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that is already the position of certain koryu practitioners I respect.

Please recall that an art that is "different" may also be described as "special" and people should not attach connotations that its practitioners are snobs.

-M-

[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-14-2000).]

[Margaret Lo]

Aaron - thank you for your clarification. I do agree that hearty arguments are welcome or else why post?

-M-

[Diane Skoss]

Hey Toby (and all you other lads and lassies),

Just one comment on your teacher's position. I agree with parts of it--for one thing, I certainly wouldn't consider training in Japan with a "lesser" sort of teacher. However, for many, if not most, koryu, the truly superior (i.e. skilled and knowledgeable, and able to transmit) teachers are in Japan.

Okay, so it is two comments. Your teacher is Japanese. There are things that he knows, lives, and breathes that are different from what you and I know/have been brought up to--not better, just different, and more importantly, Takamura Sensei's upbringing is more relevant to the study of koryu. Japanese culture has indeed changed significantly from the days of the bushi, but the culture that exists today still has many features in it that are tied to the feudal era, and it is much more similar to the culture that spawned the koryu than the Western one I grew up in! The koryu are Japanese social entities--you simply can't do them, in my opinion, without having a clue as to how Japanese society works. And I truly believe that the way to do that is to spend some time in it (I mean would you read a book to learn a martial art? No, you go to the dojo and train).

I, like Nathan, would love to hear from anyone who has spent several years training in Japan in a koryu--who is NOT Japanese, nay, let's be more precise, a Westerner--and does not believe that training in Japan is a necessity at some stage.

Also, for the record, I do believe that the koryu are excellent methods of training. For me, they are the bees knees. But I also train in several modern arts, which I adore, and ride dressage (okay, so that's a bit of an exaggeration--I'm learning to ride with the aim of eventually learning dressage). No one of these arts are superior--you get what you put into them, as long as you've sought and found the right teacher--wherever he or she may be.



------------------
Diane Skoss
Koryu.com (http://Koryu.com)

[Earl Hartman]

I apologize if I flew off the handle, but the attitude that I thought I detected behind Mr. Seay's comments touched a raw nerve, as his comments seemed to be directed at some people I know personally.

I first started studying kendo more than 30 years ago. Since then, I spent 11 years living in Japan studying various arts, some gendai (kendo and kyudo) and some koryu (Nagao Ryu Taijutsu and MJER Iai Heiho). Over the years, I have gravitated more towards koryu and have recently (within the last 5 years) taken up SMR jo and even more recently (within the last year) started studying Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Hyoho. I have also recently begun training in tradtitional kyudo of the Heki To Ryu. I claim no great skill in any of the arts I practice. I just give this as background information.

However, I can state without reservation and based on personal experience that the level of the MA that I experienced in Japan is far higher than what I have experienced here in the US, especially in kendo and kyudo. I can also say, and in this I agree with Diane wholeheartedly, that an understanding of Japanese culture has been vital to my understanding of martial arts. If that makes me the kind on Japanophile snob that Takemura sensei describes, then I must aopolgize in advance.

Of course, what Takemura Sensei says about superior vs. inferior teachers, the changes in Japanese culture, etc., is certainly true. Only a fool would say that a teacher must be Japanese to be any good and that there is no good bugei outside of Japan, and there are plenty of degenerate koryu to be found in Japan, I am sure. Even I have seen incredible changes in Japan over the years which undoubtedly pale in comparison with what Takemura Sensei has seen. (And if you think that I think Japan has changed, you should hear what my wife has to say about it every time she goes back home to visit: "#@!!& kids these days, the whole country is going to hell in a handbasket...").

It is of course entirely possible that one may be lucky enough to find a highly qualified teacher of traditional Japanese bugei outside of Japan. I wish nothing but success to those who have been lucky enough to do so. Also, not all of the charlatans and frauds in this country are Americans. There are plenty of Japanese frauds here too.
However, the law of averages would dictate that the majority of skilled traditional teachers are still to be found in Japan, the country where these arts originated.

For instance, the highest ranked kyudo practitoner in this country is a Renshi 6th dan. He is a highly skilled practitoner and a personal friend of mine, and he probably knows more about traditional kyudo than anyone in the US. I have nothing but respect for him and all he has done to help introduce traditional kyudo to the West. However, in Japan, he is only a Renshi 6th dan, and I mean no disprespect by this at all. Without putting too fine a point on it, Japan is lousy with Renshi 6th dans, as rare as they may be here. For a central Renshi test in Japan, more than 300 candidates regularly show up for a single test. We are lucky if there is even 1/3 of that number of people training in kyudo, at any level, in the entire continental US.

The same thing is true in kendo. I trained with the riot squad cops in Japan for a year and a half (when I was a lot younger and a lot stupider). I was so far out of my league it was beyond pathetic. The level of skill, the pool of bodies available, the level of teaching, and the fanatic dedication to training that I experienced was beyond anything I had imagined. Unless a US squad were filled with Japanese ringers, there is no way any team of homegrown US kendokas could beat them. This is proven time and time again in the international competitions. The only question is who is going to come in second.

At the same time, it is true that there are a few superior teachers outside of Japan, regardless of nationality. The question is, who are they and where are they found? Frankly, since this is koryu, and there is no organization in the US that corresponds to the various umbrella organizations for koryu in Japan, there is no way of knowing, except by personal experience and word of mouth, who these teachers might be. Also, e-budo itself makes clear that there are widely differeing opinions on what, precisely, a "qualified koryu school/teacher" might be.

Regarding "Kabuki Koryu", again, I must ask, how does one know what this might be? The japanese are no different from anyone else; they love to sit down over a few beers and say: "Oh yeah, Nani-nani Sensei of Nantoka Ryu really sucks. I knew his father, and he was strong, but the ryu isn't worth a plugged nickel nowadays. Now, Nantoka Nani Nani Ryu, on the other hand..." If you've never seen or studied the ryu in question, and you respect and admire your sensei (which you must if you have any sense at all) you're going to nod and say "Hmm, I guess we don't have to waste our time with that nonsense, do we?" We all do this. That's where snobbery starts.

Sorry for the rambling incoherence. There's bound to be a point in there somewhere.

Earl

[Margaret Lo]

Earl, I understand your points to be:

1) do not disparage people you have never met; and

2) when learning an art native to another country it helps to understand that country by going there.


-M-

Hi Diane,

Thanks for joining in and offering your keen observations. I think we are basically on the same page here albeit I may need a little wiggle room http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif.

There is a misunderstanding to do with a quote attributed to you that I think needs clarification. The quote was:

"You can't study Koryu unless you come to Japan".

This can be interpreted several ways. I think most people that find a problem with this statement take it to mean "You can study koryu ONLY while in Japan." as opposed to "During your study of koryu at sometime you must train in Japan"

This is a big difference!

I know for a fact that Takamura Sensei disagreed with my first interpretation of your quote because he stated as much quite plainly on several occasions. He acknowledged that some training in Japan would be beneficial in helping a student grasp certain cultural aspect's which would maintain the "Japaneseness" of what they were doing. Maintaining certain Japanese cultural aspects in koryu study were very important to him because they are after all "Nihon Koryu". But he seems to have drawn a line at a different place than many others in reference to this debate. He felt that to say it was mandatory for someone to actually live in Japan for an extended period so they could grasp the 'essence" of koryu, was simply putting too much focus on changed and changing cultural details unassociated with actual mastery of the art. In his perception the "cultural features" left over from the feudal era that you mentioned, had changed so much in his lifetime that he felt their relevence must have been marginalized and changing before even he was a student.

The argument could be made that by training in Japan one is attempting to prevent further maginalization. I tried this argument on him once and Takamura Sensei didn't buy it at all. His position was that the koryu culture was irrepairably marginalized at the end of the feulad era, period, end of story. He felt that westerners like myself tended to romanticize koryu and see it as a snapshot in history that accurately reflected the past thru great lengths of time. He used to laugh with me over this considering it amazing that I was capable of such simplemindedness. (I thanked him for the compliment.)

I will quote him again although here he specifically talks about the technical aspects of koryu changing over time.

He stated:

"Remember that the ryu as they existed in the Warring States era were constantly changing and adjusting to the realities they faced on the battlefield. Only when this period ended did the innovation slow. Many of the classical schools as practised today are, at their best, reflections of the way that tradition operated in one short period of its existence. They are not an accurate reflection of its technical existence over its whole history. "

Maybe this gives some of you a better understanding of where he stood on this and why. His overriding passion was seeing the martial traditions of his ancestors survive. His bottom line was that they were truly "martial arts" and that the secrets they held would not survive if only in archaic forms. This does not mean he felt the forms were useless but that the secrets in them must be applied at some point in a more practical manner to remain truly alive and relevent.

When I asked Takamura Sensei for permission to open a dojo, permission was granted but with many qualifiers. The dojo could not be in a commercial location but had to be located close to my residence. It must include a kamidana and tatami. It had to be traditional in appearance and demonstrate the restrained elegence associated with a place of experiencing shugyo. (Takamura Sensei was often an unpredictable stickler about certain aspects of the ryu, as was his perogative.) He perhaps drew the line of what constituted koryu for him differently than some but personally I see the wisdom of his choice, even if it differs from those admired friends whose qualifications include long koryu training time in Japan. I respect you guys and your sacrafice in keeping koryu alive , even if we disagree on certain shades within the circle of opinions.

Toby Threadgill
Soryushin Dojo / Dallas

[This message has been edited by Toby Threadgill (edited 06-14-2000).]

[Earl Hartman]

Margaret:

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Trust you to sift out the main points.

Toby's letter brings up what I think the main point of debate in all of this, which is:

"Is the essence of the bugei (whether koryu or gendai) somehow tied up with the Japaneseness of the bugei, or can it be seprated from its cultural trappings?"

A related question would be "Can the essence of the bugei be separated from its physical expression in a particular ryu?"

These are fascinating and fundamental questions, and could (and probably will be) discussed incessantly. How one feels about them is going to determine where on the spectrum one falls when it comes to the necessity, or lack thereof, of living in Japan or knowing anything about the country and its culture, and on the degree of "historical accuracy" that is required for something to be "authentic".

Takamura Sensei obviously has his own view of these questions and has obviously given it a lot of thought. The bugei have obviously changed greatly, of course. Nothing stays as it once was. Each ryu within the tradition, in the person of its headmaster, will have its own take on this. Each bugeisha will make his or her own determination over what he or she considers important, based on the reasons that he/she has for studying them to begin with. These motivations will also change over time. Questioning the "validity" of a person's motivations is worse than pointless, it is divisive. However, discussing the validity of the historical provenenace of a particular ryu is a legitimate avenue of historical inquiry.

Earl

[Diane Skoss]

Thanks, Toby, for clarifying something that indeed many people have misunderstood about my position, re: koryu and training in Japan. I never wrote: "You can't study koryu unless you come to Japan" (at least I'm fairly sure I didn't http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif). In fact, what I have written (I'm not going to go quote it, but it's in that article "You want koryu? Come to Japan"), is that if you want to train in a koryu outside of Japan you should choose to train with a teacher who has spent significant time in Japan (such a person, could of course, be Japanese).

I also believe it is absolutely necessary for anyone responsible for transmission of a koryu (and that means the entire curriculum; i.e. menkyo kaiden level or equivalent) to have spent time in Japan. I don't think that everyone who trains in koryu (or any Japanese budo for that matter) needs to go to Japan, though I sincerely believe that it helps (see Margaret's cogent statement just above). I do think that anyone being considered for the highest level of license (and there are only a handful of ryuha in which there is someone outside of Japan who can even do this considering) should spend time in Japan. I also believe that if your single-minded most cherished priority is to train in a koryu, then going to Japan is by far your best bet.

Now perhaps this is where the snobbish reputation comes from. It isn't a foregone conclusion that everyone who starts out on the path will end up with a license of complete transmission (hell, it isn't a foregone conclusion that everyone who wants to train in a koryu will even find a qualified instructor--there aren't that many of them around, in Japan or out). In fact, only a very very small percentage of trainees achieve the highest level. In some schools there is only one per generation. In other schools, there may be as many as a dozen at a time in a single line (it gets complicated trying to explain all the permutations--the koryu don't take easily to generalization). In many ryuha there are a fair number of the lowest level licensees running around; fewer of the next level up, and so on. The highest levels are indeed elusive (thanks, Doug, for that useful perspective!); only an elite few ever achieve it (I'm not one of them!). But that doesn't mean we can't strive for it, and if such a level of understanding of a koryu art is your goal, I still most strongly recommend living in Japan.

A quick question (I know I should know this but...), how many years did Takamura Sensei live in the West? Sometimes my experience has been that the Japanese (and I'm not saying this is the case with him, mind you) aren't fully aware of just how different our culture is from theirs, until they themselves have spent significant time here. They simply don't know how much we don't know about basics of Japanese etiquette and social/cultural behavior. Is it possible that he didn't have experience with the depths of our general cluelessness (re: how to exist in Japan) here in the West--I mean you aren't a very good example for him, being a quick study, thoughtful, observant (I'm being serious here, folks--Toby and I have met), meticulous with the cultural details...?

Again, the reason I think you must study in Japan is because the koryu today are a Japanese social group--they are more than a collection of teachings more or less based on battlefield techniques of the feudal-era bushi. To exist as a member of a koryu today, you've got to know what being a member of a ryu means, how to behave properly in various (Japanese) situations; it's all much more than technique, or even basic etiquette. Sure, the details have changed over time, but the current form of the koryu, in my opinion, must be maintained in this social structure--it is what has been transmitted--or it is not koryu (see Dave Lowry's introduction to Sword & Spirit for a far more elegant explanation of this point). I don't believe you can get the hang of this structure (let alone attempt to replicate it outside of Japan), without experience in it. I guess I am a snob, after all http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif



------------------
Diane Skoss
Koryu.com (http://Koryu.com)

[Nathan Scott]

Toby-san,

Although I had intended to refer to non-Japanese who have gone to Japan to study, your article clip offers some worthwhile points to consider. I had forgotten about that part of Takamura Sensei's article, which by the way I (like everyone else) really liked and largely agreed with/related to.

However, I am in agreement with Earl-san's position that we are talking about something more than the physical location of the dojo (dirt under our feet).

Personally, I think that advanced/senior instructors of traditional/classical arts should generally spend at least a little time in Japan specifically to understand the Japanese mind and cultural elements that are so much different (in many cases opposite) to the western mind and way of thinking. That doesn't mean that a western instructor has to copy the eastern ways of thinking and teaching necessarily, but without deeply understanding these subtleties there are invariably little matters of interpretation or "educated guesses" that are lost as a result. Yes Japanese are different now than they were then in alot of ways, but there is alot of general and specific things (intangible, but important) that seem to be the same that are relevant.

On the other hand, I think it's *possible* to learn these things outside of Japan, assuming that you have a seasoned instructor who understands these things and can accurately transmit/interpret relevant information to their students, but as has been pointed out, these instructors (right now) are *really* far and few between.

As an example in support of the non-Japan viewpoint, I've had the rather unique experience to study for some time under Obata Toshishiro Sensei, who was born in Japan but has lived in LA for the last 20 years. He is not only a native Japanese, but has a mindset and personallity straight out of feudal times (he rarely even wears western clothes!) Obata Soke began serious Budo training at 18 years old, and has pursued studying and teaching professionally for close to 35 years now.

Shinkendo is a new art, of which he founded after he moved to America, so our Honbu dojo happens to be here in Los Angeles, not in Japan. Since he is a full time teacher, I've been able to interact with him at least 4-7 days a week since I first joined, and spent many a weekend staying (living) at their house during the writing of his most current book.

So although we're not talking about koryu in this case, here is a unique situation in which Japan came to us, in a big way, for me in the form of an almost uchi-deshi experience.

Takamura Yukiyoshi Sensei moved to America, and so did Yoshida Soke (Yanagi ryu/Don Angier) bringing their traditions with them.

These are all rare cases, so in most respects it will be necessary to at least make trips to Japan to train under the headmaster's of most koryu.

Also, on one last point regarding this, I've heard proponents of Koryu describe the traditions as "living entities", that need to be carefully and properly cultivated. I believe that it is possible to create that kind of dynamic in a dojo outside of Japan, but you'd need to know what it felt like first to be a part of that before knowing where to focus your energies.

FWIW,


------------------
Nathan Scott
Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo (http://www.shinkendo.com)
Tsuki Kage dojo (http://www.tsuki-kage.com)
Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum (http://www.swordforum.com/jsa)

Howdy, (just to add some Texan flavor)

This discussion has really clarified some things. What great opinions and observations.
I hope some of the readers lurking about out there have a better handle on the elite vs snob controversary. I think elite is winning the day although I'm sure some ego induced snobbishness will always exist in a few koryu practitioners. Heck I've met the most intolerable snobs in gendai martial arts so this phenomonon is certainly not limited to koryu circles.

I've got a funny story that Margaret made me think of in her last post while making the observation that the average Japanese of today knows nothing of koryu culture.

In Japan once, a friends associate named Nobiyuki who lived in Mito asked me the question of why I practiced Japanese budo. He was especially perplexed as to why I had any interest in something so archaic as Japanese swords. I was speechless. I was so caught off guard by the question that I just stood there staring at him. I finally responded with some vapid rambling about discipline, honor, preserving something worth saving, yuk yuk yuk. Well, this painful retort resulted in a most un-Japanese response. He said "I think thats very odd, Don't you?" How was I suppose to respond to that? He elaborated that he just could not fathom why certain foreigners would put their whole lives on hold, quitting good jobs, living in near poverty to train in so archaic a pursuit as budo. He adroitly posed this next question. "Mr Threadgill, if I quit my job and moved to Texas without knowing any english so I could learn to be a cowboy and rope little dogies wouldn't you find it a bit strange?

Little Dogies? I laughed my ass off and responded that I probably would. Nobiyuki just smiled in victory.

Later that evening he proudly displayed his collection of favorite videotaped movies. All John Wayne movies including "The sands of Iwo Jima and "The Fighting Seabee"s. The evening was a bizarre experience I will never forget.


Toby Threadgill

[Margaret Lo]

You know folks. It is not necessary to defend the necessity of going to Japan. It is necessary to convince me why that trip is unnecessary.

At Princeton University, or any university able to grant doctorates, every non-native scholar who studies Japanese art history or Chinese art history spends significant amounts of time in those countries. Many times, the objects they study are in London or New York and written work is available to them overseas. Theoretically they can just stay home, and they mostly do just that.

But every single western born and raised scholar spends at least a year in Japan or China - even though the art work they study is often 300 to 1000 years old, and the societies which produced these works are long dead and buried.

Why do they do that? I think because even the modern culture of Japan or China, despite the changes that have occurred in recent years, still bear a great deal closer resemblance to those older cultures than the ancient/honorable culture of NEW JERSEY, USA.

So I do not see the need to support the position that a trip to Japan is necessary. It is quite obvious that the trip is very important. It is important to note, however, that the trip does not necessarily help one's understanding of koryu because that is dependant on the ability of the student who is visiting.

As to Takamura Sensei's point of view:

"The argument could be made that by training in Japan one is attempting to prevent further maginalization. I tried this argument on
him once and Takamura Sensei didn't buy it at all. His position was that the koryu culture was irrepairably marginalized at the end of the feulad era, period, end of story. He felt that westerners like myself tended to romanticize koryu and see it as a snapshot in history that accurately reflected the past thru great lengths of time."

I think the essence of his argument seems to be that westerners go to Japan to satisfy their own romantic notions rather than doing hard technical work at home. I can agree with his assessment except that it is less based on the idea that going to Japan will not help you understand koryu, than on the idea that for some westerners, going to Japan won't help because they still won't understand Japanese culture, and that this is especially the case since few Japanese understand koryu culture.

Therefore, Mr. Takamura's argument does not persuade me that going to Japan is not helpful, only that it is no magic pill.

-M-

[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-15-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-15-2000).]

[Earl Hartman]

Mr Popie:

Your post is an excellent example of a lot of the things we have been trying to discuss. I do not know anything about you, in what arts you have trained, how long you have been training, or anything else.

However, your apparent shock at the fact that the champion of a kendo tournament did not whoop, holler, pound his chest like King Kong, taunt the man he had defeated, and otherwise make a disgusting spectacle of himself after winning a match (which is clearly what you expected) and the fact that you mistook his calmness, reserve, and dignity for shame, speaks volumes. I know that you will excoriate me for being one of thse horrible koryu snobs, but this one statement alone makes it painfully obvious that you do not know anything about budo (and this is the crux of the matter) AS IT IS PRACTICED IN JAPAN.

In the US, we expect the victor in any contest to exult in his victory, claim exclusive credit for it, and take it as manifest proof of his obvious superiority to the poor schmuck that he just humiliated. This is how we believe that Real Men are supposed to act, and all of the professional athletes in this country practice their in-your-face victory dance almost as much as they work on their sporting skills.

In Japan, anyone who acts that way is despised as an arrogant buffoon, and will promptly have the stuffing beaten out of him. There is always someone stronger, and any fool who thinks he is good enough to look down his nose at his training mates is heading for a fall. Indeed, much of budo training in Japan is geared toward beating that kind of arrogance out of people, not cultivating it. This is one of the most fundamental differences between Japan and the US, and explaining why this is important is beyond the scope of this bulletin board.

Also, a person who has spent significant time in Japan learning a traditional art has every right to expect any potential student of his/hers to defer to that experience and not come swaggering in expecting to be treated as an equal. In Japan, the person with experience is automatically the senpai, the senior. His/her experience must be respected. If a senior takes an arrogant tone, he is failing in his role as someone who must show the proper way to his juniors. However, the junior must act as befits a junior, and this means, most importantly, recognizing the plain fact of his own ignorance and accepting that the other person knows more than he does and is, consequently, worthy of certain degree of respect and deference.

It is precisely this acceptance of this heirarchy of skill and experience, and one's own place within it (which changes as one gains skill and experience of one's own) that is one of the most important traits a student of budo must have, and it is precisely this one thing that most Americans simply cannot bring themselves to do. We are trained to believe that we are all equal and that no one's experience is more valuable than another's, and that "lowering" yourself to anyone, no matter who he or she may be, is to humiliate yourself and lose face. Well, too bad. Budo doesn't work that way. In Japan, this arrogance, which we Americans mistake for pride, is the mark of a person whio has no business wasting other people's valuable practice time. Fortunately, life in the dojo for these people is usually made so miserable that they usually leave, undoubtedly cursing the damn koryu snobs as they walk out, never to return.

Earl

[Earl Hartman]

Mr. Popie:

I find your last post completely incoherent, and I have no idea what it is that you are trying to say.

The only thing that makes any sense is your statement that you know nothing about budo. If this is really true, and you are not being facetious or coy, then I must say that you take the chutzpah prize of all times.

This is a bulletin board for discussions about budo by people who practice and care about budo. If you do not practice budo and if you don't know anything about it, as you yourself admit, what in the Sam Hill are you doing here?

A snob is a person who presumes to discuss something about which he knows nothing, as you have apparently done. I do not know what your profession is, but let us assume for a moment that you are a physicist. I know nothing about physics and I freely admit it. If I were to attend a lecture you gave, would you not think it more than a little odd if I started accusing you of being a snob because you dared to reveal your knowledge and presumed to thereby put yourself above me? A person with any sense would defer to your obvious knowledge and, if he cared anything about physics, attempt to learn something from you.

If your preceding post was not a joke, and you really don't know anything about budo, then you should either start training or post to some other bulletin board where your comments would add to, rather than detract from, the conversation.


That Execrable Koryu Snob (Damn His Impudent Eyes),
Earl

[Brently Keen]

As I think I'm one of the guilty "koryu snobs" for my previous posts on the oft mentioned "pre-crash AJJ forum", I've tried to refrain from jumping into this discussion until now.

But I just have to say that the last several posts by Earl here were brilliantly well stated. As are Diane's, I find myself agreeing with them just about completely.

If I can add my own two cents: I don't think the term "elite" connotates snobbery in my mind at all. And while I think "elusive" accurately describes the koryu arts, I don't think it describes koryu practitioners as well as "elite" does. If that makes me a snob in anyone's mind, so be it.

Brently Keen

[ghp]

Mr. Popie,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I see the point of your argument. Now I shall ask if you feel those who return from Japan (1 week to 10 Years having contact with a Koryu) have a right to be elite/snobby. Also if it is reasonable for those who have never had the chance to go to Japan to interpret these people as elite or snobs?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Elite, possibly (depends on length of study); no.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Those who go endure like it has been stated and from that they have a new sense of pride for their accomplishments and knowledge. When the get back to their country of origin they have a conversation of someone ignorant of Japan and Koryu and whose knowledge base comes from scholars and others who have been to Japan-all clearly not first hand knowledge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Secondary sources are important in research, but do not bear the same import as do primary sources. Second-hand knowledge can be almost as important as a primary source, provided it eminates (accurately) from one who has experienced the situation first-hand. However, you must be cognizant that you will unconsciously filter the information imparted to you. It's no one's fault, really; just a matter of "seeing the elephant" or going on "Hadj." Just as the person with direct experience filters information through one set of cultural lenses -- you,the secondary recipient, further filter that same information through an additional set of cultural lenses (sunglasses sometimes). Therefore, you may not be seeing what he saw. Granted, you now possess new information previously absent -- and it is much better than not having any information at all; however, concepts, techniques, explanations, etc., are clearer when you -- yourself -- have direct, first-hand experience.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>... What might the perspective of each other as a result their intercourse be on Koryu? Would the knowledge one (went to Japan and learned Koryu to some degree) look down upon the ignorant one? If so, is this not an example of Koryu snobbery? Well, that is, if you consider the person who went to Japan more then a drop in the bucket of experience. That is 10 years in Japan studying a Koryu is a drop in the bucket right? Scholars spend lifetimes with just small parts of a culture. What more of a task is it for the Japanese martial artist?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This same argument is foisted time and again upon those with university and advanced degrees. Whether we like to admit it or not, people with academic qualifications *are* elite -- and, some *are* snobs; however, "elite" is not ipso facto "snob." Using the example of higher education, one can experience "reverse snobbery" every day -- "Johnny has a BA, MA, or PhD; therefore, he must think he's better than we. So we'll just laugh at the egghead and tell him that education is no substitute for "real" experience!" Or, "One does not need a university education to make it." Does this not happen in martial arts too?
"You don't have to go to Japan to study koryu;" "koryu don't teach practical street combat;" "koryu are ineffective;" etc. Never mind the fact that the person who spends time in Japan learns more about the cultural trappings of koryu -- or even gendai budo. It is still a worthy education. Do we "look down on the ignorant one?" -- NO! Personally speaking, I enjoy teaching what I have learned. I don't look down on anybody. However, I do feel sorry for those who think they have nothing to learn. That does not make me a snob, does it? If someone does not want to learn from my small experience that is fine -- there are others who feel they can learn something.

The "Budo Seikai" [martial arts world] is a different world. Just as university expands one's perspective, so does training in Japan expand one's understanding of budo-culture. It may not give you all the skills to "be a mechanic," but it does provide the ability to understand the theory of mechanics on a deeper level -- often in a shorter amount of time than it would take "on the job."

University is no longer the "elitist" privlidge it once was -- not since the GI Bill opened college for the average American in the late 1940s. However, the "average Joe" who attends does become an "elite." Whether he then becomes a snob is a totally different issue.

Perception (or mis perception) probably is also a factor. The martial artist who cannot go to Japan sees these "Japanophiles" discussing issues on a different level. They tend to gravitate towards each other. They use unfamiliar Japanese which is not the typical dojo-language. They speak of esoteric places with familiarity. They correct his pronunciation. It is not so much that the Japanophiles are "snobs" -- it is just that he will perceive them as "elitists, ergo snobs" because their level of education is significantly higher than his. Some who did not attend university feel uncomfortable in the presence university graduates. The grads tend to speak at a different --educated -- level which is unfamiliar and (perhaps) frightening to him.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Well, Earl I do find you a snob...more now after your post to me saying I know nothing of Budo. Your right I don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The message I am picking up here is: Snobs (i.e., those who studied in Japan) do not want to "waste" time with those who have not journeyed to Japan. This is patently incorrect. Everybody I know -- including Earl -- who has spent time in Japan sees themselves as a curator of the art they studied. They, in turn, are eager to pass along their knowledge to anyone who desires to learn. This is the epitome of responsibility -- dissemination of correct knowledge. Why is that perceived as being "snobbish?"

Regards,
Guy

------------------
Guy H. Power
http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan

[This message has been edited by ghp (edited 06-16-2000).]

[Undmark, Ulf]

I guess this "Go to Japan-thing" is something requiering a lot of reading between the lines...

Going to Japan in itself will not help very much in understanding Koryu. I bet the kids and youths growing up in todays Japan don't know a thing about the "Koryu-culture". What do they know of what WE call Japanese culture?

The thing is that it IS possible to study Koryu (to a certain degree) without going to Japan. Just as it IS possible to study Koryu without ever recieving a Menkyo. It is also possible to live and study Koryu in Japan without ever understanding anything.

On the otherhand, since the Koryu is very small...in Japan and especially outside Japan, one has to search to find. This is true even for those growing up in Japan, they too have to search to find qualified instruction, wich is not found on the corner.
Such instruction demands hard studying and there are much more than just pure technique.

I guess that it will become obvious to most students that if one wants to get a deeper understanding, the price will be higher and the places to find the deeper understanding (of the surrounding culture and such) will be rare.

Rainforrests are getting rare too, and I feel I need to visit one before they are all gone...

Regards,
Ulf

[Margaret Lo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Popie:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Margaret Lo:

Therefore, Mr. Takamura's argument does not persuade me that going to Japan is not helpful, only that it is no magic pill.

I see the point of your argument. Now I shall ask if you feel those who return from Japan (1 week to 10 Years having contact with a Koryu) have a right to be elite/snobby. Also if it is reasonable for those who have never had the chance to go to Japan to interpret these people as elite or snobs?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one who has ever posted on this thread has ever felt that training in Japan gives anyone any rights to be snobby. There is no justification for any one to perceive those who have trained in Japan to be snobs.

I for one have never been to Japan and I train in a modern art. I have not the slightest sense that any of the koryu practitioners are condescending to me.

Popie - You are trolling that much is obvious.

-M-

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Popie - as a matter of courtesy, please take a second to note the proper name spelling of our list-ka when posting - two
in particular of which I listed below have many years in the arts and I noticed you habitually misspell them:

Lowery is Lowry, and Powers is Power.

http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif




------------------
Nathan Scott
Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo (http://www.shinkendo.com)
Tsuki Kage dojo (http://www.tsuki-kage.com)
Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum (http://www.swordforum.com/jsa)

[Earl Hartman]

I dislike getting into flame wars (this is my first one, as a matter of fact) but this is just too much. So now Margaret is a snob because she dares to have the effrontery, the sheer, unmitigated gall, to attend that effete bastion bastion of elitism, Princeton U? And poor Mr. Popie, feeling sorry for himself that he didn't have the money or the connections to make it, thereby implying that the only reason Margaret is there is because she's from some some rich high-society family? Did you ever stop to think that you might not have the brains to get into Princeton, Mr. Popie?

Margaret has never once presumed to lecture anyone about anything just because she attends a certain school; indeed she has never mentioned it once, as far as I know. For Mr. Popie to insinuate this just shows what a small-minded, envious little man he is. For shame.

So you don't take my opinion of you seriously. Fine. As you said, no skin off my nose. However, I think it is only reasonable for us to expect that you will, at least, take budo seriously when you presume to discuss it. Margaret's posts show her to be a serious and perceptive student of budo (and with a pretty good sense of humor and good taste in food, too, two things that are always important). Your posts, on the other hand, show you to be a smarmy, smirking poser who is only interested in stirring things up and sitting back and chuckilng at the trouble you cause. Since you don't know anything about budo, as you yourself freely admit, you should have the manners to show some respect to people who do, and who take it seriously, instead of impugning their integrity because you are jealous of them.

That Damned Koryu Snob,
Earl, Finding Himself Unable To Keep His Blasted Mouth Shut, Even When He Knows It Won't Solve Anything To Get Hot And Bothered

[MarkF]

I also train in a "modern" art, and most of my life, I have been told that I must go to the Kodokan to get the best, but you know what? The Kodokan has long cease to be it when it comes to judo.

I was invited to train at the kodokan at the age of sixteen in the middle sixties, but my family had not the money to pay my way. Should I go to learn and experience the culture even if the Kodokan has almost to be threatened (not literally) to answer email of snailmail just to get the list of fees for living and training there, as well as for two students who would like to go? It is attractive to be able to say "I studied at the Kodokan, but would one be better off in his studies? No, not for a second. Generally, ranks are paid for and one can be had by spending a few months there per every time one wants to go.

I have played judo in a foreign country, one in which the dojo there are mainly backed financially by the government. I found outstanding judoka in this country which was not Japan.

We dance around who we call names, but sometimes a snob is just a snob, no matter what one is learning or doing. Sometimes they are polite and sometimes the are very accusatory. So just where is he boundry? Modern combative art have taken a beating almost from inception, and most have persevered. I do think koryu will do the same, but as long as one holds up koryu to the stigma of not going to Japan, it will continue to be slammed, in a way. Japan is not scary because you can't speak the language, it is scary because of the way most Japanese are treated by their own ruling class. And that, I think, is a same, be it shado or judo, or any koryu.

------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Margaret Lo]

Dear Earl:
Didn't you say you were planning to wean yourself off E-Budo? http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

Thank you for your staunch defense. I am grateful to have met you and others such as yourself on this board. I have learned a great deal from your posts, not the least of which is a little more about Judaism. I'm most glad we understand each other about food. You have earned a standing invitation to a fabulous little Chinese restaurant near me (Ha! you're secret motive is revealed - clever man! http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif)

Popie - I do not attend Princeton, nor have I ever attended Princeton. I teach a shotokan karate class at Princeton University. I mentioned Princeton in a post about its requirements of its graduate students.

My point on that post was simply:

If traveling to Japan is required for students of Japanese art history at Princeton, surely a similar reasoning applies to the serious study of Japanese budo - especially when koryu is not readily available here.

Your reaction to my mention of Princeton simply illustrates my point. Some practitioners have the koryu equivalent of Princeton degrees. Some of these people are snobs, but most are not snobs, just serious curators/scholars.

To the insecure among us, those people with elite credentials are per se snobs despite the fact that they have done nothing to earn them that disparaging label.

-M-

[Earl Hartman]

Margaret:

I guess I went too far and blew my cover. Yes, all along I've been doing nothing but angling for a free Chinese meal with the Shotokan poster girl of my dreams.

Seriously, though, is the place kosher? If it is, I'm there.

Earl

[Margaret Lo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MarkF:
...The Kodokan has long cease to be it when it comes to judo.

I have played judo in a foreign country, one in which the dojo there are mainly backed financially by the government. I found outstanding judoka in this country which was not Japan.

We dance around who we call names, but sometimes a snob is just a snob, no matter what one is learning or doing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mark - a large part of the arguments in favor of going to Japan is that koryu is NOT easily available in the US. This is quite unlike the situation for Judo where great teachers abound outside of Japan.

Also, if a snob is a snob, well who is the snob? I do not want to start wars but it is unfair to just generally state that a bunch of people are snobs without pointing to specific instances and then defending your position.

Again - the situation for koryu students is very different than that for judo or karate. I learned karate from an Iranian who learned from a Frenchman. They were both as good as possible and taught as pure a form of shotokan as occurs in Tokyo. I agree that I need not go to Japan to have good karate.

I think the koryu people need to go to Japan.

-M-

[Margaret Lo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Earl Hartman:
Margaret:

I guess I went too far and blew my cover. Yes, all along I've been doing nothing but angling for a free Chinese meal with the Shotokan poster girl of my dreams.

Seriously, though, is the place kosher? If it is, I'm there.

Earl<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Earl - I prefer "chick" or "babe". Kosher! Well ... uh - don't ask, don't tell. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif

Did you hear the one about the Chinese restaurant and their "Hunan Lamb" dish? Well the "lamb" is "pork". Those rotten Chinese.

-M-

[Earl Hartman]

Margaret:

Oooops.....thought the "lamb" tasted a little funny.

Actually went to a kosher Chinese place in Brookline, Mass. I'm sure you would have been horrified, but for an imitation, it was as probably as good as could have been expected. That's the problem with people like me who started keeping kosher only later in life: we know what we're missing.

Of course, if you want to have REAL Chinese food, you've just got to go to China. All those poor slobs, thinking they're getting the real deal in New York and Los Angeles. What a bunch of clueless maroons! Everybody knows that the only real, authentic Chinese food left is made by a chef in the Xinxiang Autonomous Region, who learned all of his recipes from his father, who was the last true surviving master of the secret school of the Three Sages of the Lotus Root, who trace their lineage back to the First Chef, Sum Good Chow, who live during the Shang Dynasty. Nothing else quite measures up, don't you know, my dear? Once you've had the real thuing, nothing else will do.

Earl

PS Seriously, my old girlfriend had a KILLER recipe for prawns in the shell with scallions and rice wine. ABSOLUTELY KILLER!! Let me know if you want it. It's really easy, and can't be beat. (Can't eat it anymore! Sob!!)

PPS Babe, huh? I'll remember that.

[Margaret Lo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Earl Hartman:


Of course, if you want to have REAL Chinese food, you've just got to go to China. All those poor slobs, thinking they're getting the real deal in New York and Los Angeles. What a bunch of clueless maroons! Everybody knows that the only real, authentic Chinese food left is made by a chef in the Xinxiang Autonomous Region, who learned all of his recipes from his father, who was the last true surviving master of the secret school of the Three Sages of the Lotus Root, who trace their lineage back to the First Chef, Sum Good Chow, who live during the Shang Dynasty. Nothing else quite measures up, don't you know, my dear? Once you've had the real thuing, nothing else will do.

Earl

PS Seriously, my old girlfriend had a KILLER recipe for prawns in the shell with scallions and rice wine. ABSOLUTELY KILLER!! Let me know if you want it. It's really easy, and can't be beat. (Can't eat it anymore! Sob!!)

PPS Babe, huh? I'll remember that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Shang Dynasty produced famous bronzes used in ancestral rites. It is suspected that human sacrifice was part of some rites, and the bronzes contained some of those special ingredients.

So those recipes - to reach their true purpose may require the ultimate sacrifice. There were once 4 sages but then there were 3. hmmm

I'll take that recipe by e-mail please. Thank you.

-M-

[Jay Bell]

Is this what an anneurism feels like?

Jay

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Banpen Fugyo

[Nathan Scott]

Yes.


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Nathan Scott
Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo (http://www.shinkendo.com)
Tsuki Kage dojo (http://www.tsuki-kage.com)
Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum (http://www.swordforum.com/jsa)

[Earl Hartman]

Actually, I thought with an aneurism that you just kind of got dizzy and fell over, never knowing what hit you. This is more like trying to pass a kidney stone the size of a marble.

Earl, the Cause Of It All

[Joseph Svinth]

Actually, it would be easy enough to name names, and provide quantifiable examples. However, what would be the point?

* First, it is possible that the problem was nothing more than what Strother Martin in "Cool Hand Luke" called failyuh to communicate.

* Second, it would be rude, and at least in my working-class karate classes we were always encouraged to be polite rather than rude.

* Third, saying that Mr. So-and-So is technically gifted but one worthless human being would start flame wars and very likely end civil relationships with third parties. (Especially if it's true.)

* And finally, I seem to recall Don Cunningham being roundly rebuked for continuing to describe certain individuals by name. So if he can't call people that he thinks are yahoos by name, then why should you or I provide third-parties with gossip concerning people whose only fault is perhaps a touch of hubris?

In short, just because people do not name names does not mean there are not names that could be named.

Also, because some people have not responded to things said here does not mean that they agree with the charge, rebuttal, or countercharge. Instead, they may have simply decided to opt out, or shift to e-mail.

Courtesy is what is often lacking.

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Joe
http://ejmas.com

[MarkF]

Hi, Margaret,
I think you misinterpreted part of my post. I could have said "soemtimes, a cigar is just a cigar" and made my point. What I meant is that sometimes things are exactly what they appear to be.

The second part of my post was just a general comment (or at least I meant it that way) that one may go somewhere to study something very specific and never find it. My mention of the Kodokan was only meant that sometimes, the elusive thing is hard to pin down. Meik Skoss is a good example as someone who did.

I was brought up being taught that if one wants to learn something of another culture, or make disparaging remarks concerning a people and/or its government or society one had better go to said place before spouting off, ie, a communist country. I think though, chances are better if one goes to Japan that the person will learn about the general culture of a place than something specific, in this case koryu. One would have to be blind, deaf, and otherwise handicapped to not experience this culture. Problems arise when we go blindly to a country such as Japan, and have "great expectations" of learning "true" martial arts. This is in no way saying you can't do it, but since even the gereneral percentage of Japanese who study any MA is about one-percent, your chances are slim unless one knows where to search. There are many on this forum who have lived in Japan and have taken great advantage of this and the quest for budo/bugei. Those who have, I think, are obvious. Guy and Earl come to mind as people who have something wonderful to share. The others I won't discuss because the point has all ready been well made by others. No need to punch a hole in a sinking ship http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

My original purpose of going to a foreign country was to learn the language. MA was secondary at that time although I had great experiences doing judo with judoka I had only read about here. I also was lucky enough to be offered work there as a teacher of english as a second language which raised my learning curve to the max.

Living and experiencing any other culture is worth anything you might put into it. Also knowing the language opens doors one never thought possible. Five semesters of college foreign language study is fine if you like grammar, but in my experience one needs to get off one's behind and go there. I rather embarrassingly found this out the hard way.

So my comment meant nothing but what it said. It was not a definition or a description of anyone here as a snob. Joe mentioned it, I believe, by saying it was simply courtesy we are speaking of, and those who have beem mentioned here, in particular, are not, and never have been snobs (EG, earl and Guy). Actually, the general wa of these threads has been excellent in most cases.

BTW: Earl, sometimes it is necessary to flame out to make a point. Some seem not to understand this, especially on a BB (I have been trying to tone back what I post, but have found it nearly impossible to hold back, especially when named. Go get 'em!

Margaret,
In case there was ever any question, I find your posts to be humorous and mostly dead on. I do enjoy that about you, no matter what I think of lawyers http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif

Sincerely,

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[ghp]

Mark,

Thanks for the kind words about Earl, me, and the others. I think we all of us on this BB have mutual respect for each other. And I think we can all disagree (most strongly) at times -- while maintaining said respect; this makes e-budo enjoyable.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Five semesters of college foreign language study is fine if you like grammar, but in my experience one needs to get off one's behind and go there. I rather embarrassingly found this out the hard way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must champion the cause of obtaining a strong grammatical background. I've lived in Thailand and Germany and learned the languages informally. Sure, I could get around quite comfortably; but, if I had the strong grammatical background, I feel I would have learned quicker while in-country. I base this observation on my own formal study of Japanese which began with an intensive 3 month course consisting of 4 hours of classroom and 4 hours of homework daily -- then, 2 years of 2 classes per semester at Monterey Institute of International Studies. When I lived in Japan (well, okay -- it was a military installation, so I was really in the US at night http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif ) -- I found that I was able to "understand" the language better because of the grammar.

I've seen reverse cases -- Japanese who have a strong background in English grammar pick up "regular" spoken English much faster than those who haven't studied (or "learned" -- there *is* a difference).

Well, since I'm off topic:

Mr. Popie,

Your analogy to food is fine -- however, you probably mean that "Chop Suey" is an American dish. Chow Mein means "fried noodle" and is called "Cha Men" in Japan, and something similar in Korea. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif Sorry, couldn't resist.

So a chef technically be good without being "Authentic" (with a capital "A") -- however, if someone is going to open an Authentic Chinese resturant -- and survive critique -- it must be true Chinese cooking. And be aware that Chinese resturants prepare food differently for American tastes, just as Chinese resturants in Yokohama doctor the food for the Japanese taste.

Earl,

I just ate at a Chinese resturant tonight -- after reading your tet-a-tet with Margret. Yes, there are "kosher" Chinese resturants. This one is a 99 Ranch Market close to Hwy 237 and 880 -- they are Moslem Chinese! No pork -- plenty of lamb. Well, maybe *not* Kosher...but definitely you don't have to worry about pork. And they did have Kai-mushi [I calls em that -- sea-bugs -- cockroaches of the deep......shrimp]. Love em when they are shelled; but with the Mushi-yoroi [bug armor] they look like *bugs* to me and I can't eat them.

Regards,
Guy

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Guy H. Power
http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan

[This message has been edited by ghp (edited 06-17-2000).]

[Joseph Svinth]

Popie --

My remarks were not directed at you, but at the thread in general. (For awhile there it looked like some serious road rage on the ol' Information Superhighway, you know?)

And for what it's worth, I thought your posting about the Japanese guy with his John Wayne movies was at least as insightful as Earl's posting about the Orthodox and Reformed.

So calmness all around, okay? This ain't a fight, it's randori/jiyu kumite/sparring. There's a difference, folks, honest!

Now, world at large --

A parable. Maybe it's relevant, but more likely it's just me rambling away during the middle of the night. But who cares, it's a nice story anyway.

There was a Star Trek Voyager episode where Janeway was on some planet and there met these old folks who said sit awhile. She said no, she had lots to do and no time to do it in. And off she went. But while she had lots of adventures (we have to fill 50 minutes of air time somehow), she didn't find the answer she was looking for. Dispirited, she came back and sat with the old folks. Who, of course, had the answer she was looking for, and had had it all the time.

Anyway, to apply this parable to our thread, let's say you want to study old-style Japanese martial arts. To sit awhile with the old folks, your best bet is undoubtedly a trip to Japan. But of course you'll need to learn the culture and language fairly well while you're there, otherwise all you'll get is monkey see, monkey do.

On the other hand, if your true ambition is nothing more than hanging with some great old guys who have enormous amounts of knowledge, then there is no reason to go far from your house, no reason at all.

[John Lindsey]

Gotta close this one down due to it exceeding the 50 post limit! Sorry for letting this slip by, and feel free to start a new one.

For those new members here, we generally close down threads at 50 posts because they tend to get big and SLOW...