Other menkyo lines in shinden ryu?

[Sanppa75]

Hello everybody!

Just have been wondering for a while that is there any other menkyo kaiden lines in muso shinden ryu than that nakayama hakudo - matsuo kenpu - takada gakudo line which I mentioned in some earlier topic?

Does MJER seitokai have any other "menkyo kaiden" (kongen no maki) holders than soke?

[YagyuJubei]

I think there can't be any other shinden lines from Nakayama Hakudo, because he is the one who found the ryu from shimomura-ha.

Danzaki Tomoaki is a menkyo kaiden.

[Sanppa75]

Sorry... my bad english...;)

of course I ment that do there exist any other menkyo kaiden lines from Nakayama Hakudo than "our" matsuo kenpu - takada Gakudo lineage...

My mistake.

Did Danzaki Tomoaki give menkyo kaiden to any of his students?

Cheers.

[YagyuJubei]

I think he gave some.

This is a website of one of his students. They train in classical ranking system.

http://www5c.biglobe.ne.jp/%7Ekeibukan/

[Sanppa75]

but think that page is for japanese....don´t speak or read... but I might find someone to translate it..=)

In "our" branch we have also classical ranking system beside nihon iaido kyokai`s kyu/dan system(we have kyu system only in here in Finland, Sweden and Estonia, in Japan there is only dan grades). In Takada sensei´s dojo (yushingijuku Takada dojo) there are so called ryugi dan grades for some selected students(littlebit difficult to explain in foreign language..=) and also old mokuroku system. I think that some Finnish teachers have mokuroku from Takada sensei...but don´t know much about that, so I can´t comment it more....

[Brian Dunham]

My Sensei, the late Paul Sylvain, had a Menkyo in MSR, as well as a Dan ranking. He recieved the menkyo from Mitsuzuka Takeshi Sensei, who would have recieved his from Danzaki Sensei.

[Charles Mahan]

Does MJER seitokai have any other "menkyo kaiden" (kongen no maki) holders than soke?

Not to my knowledge although it's not impossible that I am wrong. Ikeda-soke holds a Kongen no Maki and it is considered one of the three badges of the office. I would assume he will award one to his chosen successor.

There are a number of 10th dans however.

[Chidokan]

There is a thread here showing menkyo kaiden awards for MJER coming down from Oe sensei,
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28924&highlight=mjer+history
Richie has also posted one for the Harusuke ha lineage either here or at kendoworld. I'd upload it but I'm useless at this sort of thing...
Having menkyo kaiden does not qualify you for 'sokeship' fortunately, as there would be a helluva lot of them in MJER now! Fortunately we stick to just one soke! :)
Muso shinden ryu has no soke, (it was not passed on), so I suppose that makes all the waza 'fixed' with no alterations allowed. It is possible to attend an MJER class and follow what is happening, in fact the similarities rather than the differences I find quite interesting, it is obvious how MSR was developed, and the changes highlight the views of the founder in an interesting way.

[Charles Mahan]

Tim, I know Kongen no Maki were awarded in other lines, but the question was Seitokai specific.

[Sanppa75]

Yep,

I ment kongen no maki under seitokai.

But if I remember rightly, kongen no maki or menkyo kaiden gives a holder to licence "walk freely". So in classically it ment that teacher has given all of the knowledge of ryu for student, so he could continue to teach his current ryu or even make his own one. And that was completely ok, if the continuation of original ryu was taken care.

So does it make "non soke" lines any lesser than some with soke?

If I remember rightly, Iwata Norikazu sensei said that it´s not only important to follow 1 ryuha (for long enough), but 1 teacher and try to continue his legacy !!! well as possible. So if one is menkyo kaiden (or example kongen no maki like I believe sensei Iwata Norikazu is) and qualified and good teacher, so maybe it´s really don´t matter that is one really a soke or does he just have followed some other ha of the same ryu.

Even in seitokai where everyone follows 1 soke, is possible to see some different looking technique depending from teacher...I havent seen too many my self (some videos etc.)but I have heard from those who have. So maybe every teacher have some own small or bigger variations to waza... with or without soke.

"Ha" or different line can have very capable headmaster without any official name of sokeship or something....

waiting answers...=)

[Charles Mahan]

So does it make "non soke" lines any lesser than some with soke?
No. Not lesser, just different, and seperate.

You are correct. I've had the oppurtunity to witness MJER as performed under several different lineages/regions within the Seitokai and observed some remarkable differences. Most are rather subtle and almost all the differences are grounded in subtly different bunkai. The basic principles are almost exactly the same, but how they are applied may differ a little from one lineage or region to the next.

You are correct though. The "single correct way" to do things is sensei's way. The other "single correct way" to do things is "soke's way" if different from sensei. Then there are a few other correct ways, and a bunch of just plain wrong ways. When asked questions along the lines of do you cut here or a little higher, the best correct answer is always "What's my opponent doing?"

[Chidokan]

I have the privilege of having Iwata sensei as my teacher, and you are correct in what he says regarding trying to follow your own teacher as closely as you can. It would be rude not to in my opinion, he helps me as much as he can, and it would be downright rude to just throw it all away after he stops teaching. I intend to follow his methods as closely as I can, and hopefully my students will do the same for me in order to continue his teaching. One bonus of having him as my teacher is that he studied under several of Oe senseis senior students, again menkyo holders, and has done his best over the years to always use the important lessons from each of the teachers to get as close to Oe senseis methods as possible. This means I can ask any question at all and always get an answer. He also says a lot of people look at other ryu at around godan in Japan, hoping to learn something new. He actually pushes this, as it basically forces you to realise that everything you need to know is in your own school... Last year he gave me a nice kanji scroll - "listen to your teachers advice, follow your teachers advice".

This is fine for me, but does not necessarily mean that other people who are not as lucky will get as good teaching unless they study directly under a highly ranked instructor. To take Charles point, the variations he sees are partly down to purely physical variations and can also be down to lack of skill level and/or personal misinterpretation. This again is not to say people are wrong, merely that on the level they have hit that is what they currently understand to be correct. No-one does it wrong deliberately! If you watch the same people in, say, five years time, they will have changed again, and most would laugh at their own video and say how bad they were at the time!

I would be surprised if there were no other menkyo around in Seitokai though, its quite a large club in Japan and has been around a long time, so there should be people 'waiting in the wings' as it were. It usually takes around 20+ years to get one in Japan, so surely there are a few people with them??? The problem is they are not supposed to say they have them, so if they have been quiet about it, its hardly surprising Charles doesnt know... :) I would guess your 10th dans have one though...

As for soke vs. non soke, if you have a good teacher like me, you are lucky. Outside of Seitokai I have also seen the Harusuke ha, Takeshima sensei at Kochi, (who does an extremely dynamic version but is not affilliated to anyone) and a lot of teachers in the Kyoto area. Most were excellent in their own way, and some were just pretty good (damn sight better than me though!) There are no current European menkyo holders as far as I know, although we may have some in (many) years to come, so you will just have to go for the best teacher you can get! :)

[Charles Mahan]

It usually takes around 20+ years to get one in Japan, so surely there are a few people with them??? The problem is they are not supposed to say they have them, so if they have been quiet about it, its hardly surprising Charles doesnt know... :) I would guess your 10th dans have one though...


In an organization where Nanadan Kyoshi's are the guys who sweep the floors before the taikai and are otherwise out of the loop and 10th dans have to go in groups at an embukai, I'm amazingly far down the food chain. It's really none of my business what goes on on the heights, and I really should never have commented at all.

[Chidokan]

they are sometimes an 'open secret' though, so you may find out.. :) Personally I think its nice to know that there is a strong group of people ready to take over in future, it shows the club is healthy and has a lot of good commitment from its students.