Correct Way To Wear Hakama?

[Jack Chen]

So far, I've been to 3 dojos of different arts (note the lack of names here), and they wear their hakamas differently. One wore gi first, then wear the hakama. But then the way they tie the hakama is still different from others.

Are there different ways to wear a hakama? Is there a standard correct method to wear it?

[Jock Armstrong]

Which arts wear it differently??- I'm only aware of one way to wear a hakama. Tell us how they put it on.

[Jack Chen]

One art which puts on gi first, passes the hakama strings through the belt.

Whereas another art, wears nothing under the hakama, therefore won't be able to do that.

[Jack Chen]

Oh and then I saw one which leaves the knot outside, while others tuck the knot in.

[yoj]

Correctly the hakama should be worn over a top and trousers, the belt that is worn is a much softer thinner obi than the standard 'grading' one:

obi (http://iaido.tozando.com/misc/ob50.html)

Traditionally this is worn with the knot at the back, but i cheat as we roll a lot and i wear it at the front, I should probably change that ;-)

The hakam is then worn over that, the ties go around the rest of it not through the belt, the method of 'finishing' varies, some people use a bow, some tidy the ties away, it's clothes after all and people wear it a bit differently.

If you are in a style which wears a graded belt with hak, then it goes over the top of all of that.

Yes, thats a lot of things tied around your waist ;-)

[Tony Peters]

three different ways to to wear a Hakama...not a big deal Aikido MJER iaido and SMR Jodo...in none of them did I wear my Hakama the same way nor for that matter do I wear my my hak the same way here in Japan. Different arts have different stylisitic ways of dressing. dress the way the rest of the folks do in the Dojo...that's just polite.

[Jock Armstrong]

Tell me the differences- I'm intrigued..........

[Rob Alvelais]

One art which puts on gi first, passes the hakama strings through the belt.


A lot of aikidoists do that, and they wear a karate/judo obi instead of a kaku obi.


Rob

[Jack Chen]

I'm interested to know the original traditional way?

[yoj]

From the humor section on aikiweb:

Putting the hakama on.
- Step into hakama; pull it up to waist level.
- Drop hakama, turn around and put it on right way 'round.
- pull it up to waist level again.
- drop hakama again; step into it again; this time insuring both legs don't go into the same hole.
- pull it up to waist level again.
- take the front ties in hand and wrap them around and behind your body.
- pull up hakama to waist level again.
-grab ties again.
-pull hakama up again. Hold it in place with elbow.
- Grab ties again. hold them with teeth.
- pull up hakama again. Try to hold it in place by crossing legs in bizarre 'gotta pee' position while trying to grab both front ties with one hand and guide them to teeth.
- leave ties alone; staple front of hakama to belt. Gingerly take up ties trying not to disturb hakama.
- apply first aid to small holes in stomach.
- tuck top of hakama behind belt; grab ties and shove them bodily between belt and gi.
- wrap ties about a dozen times around body; tie in square knot.
- retie in square knot.
- think about joining Boy Scouts to learn how to tie knots.
- tie in big ol' fashioned granny knot.
- untie ties in a hurry; take deep breath before passing out. Wait until face goes from blue to pink - or whatever colour it normally is. Retie a little less tight than before.
- pull up back of hakama, grab ties, pass them between belt and gi.
- tie back ties in front. There should be about 10 meters of tie left over.
- Fold left tie in half, then half again, then half again, then half again, then half again, then half again, then half again until it forms a sort of pad 10 centimeters long and about twice that thick.
- place folded tie horizontally against stomach.
- take unfolded tie and wrap it around the mass of ties and knots and pads over its entire length until it forms a monstrous bow at your stomach.
- adjust cardboard bit so it fits snugly against your stomach.
- look again at carboard bit, then at the hakamas of instructors watching and laughing their heads off.
- cry.
- undo hakama, get out and start over.

[gendzwil]

Correctly the hakama should be worn over a top and trousers, the belt that is worn is a much softer thinner obi than the standard 'grading' one:
Correctly the hakama should be worn over a top and nothing at all, or maybe fundoshi. I've never understood this aikido thing of wearing zubon underneath. And especially as we're having this discussion in the Sword Arts forum...

Anyways, kendo folks just wear keikogi and hakama. Iaido folks wear an obi too, which is necessary to support the saya. Among those I've seen personally, the hakama is tied the same way, except kendoka just finish with a square knot and tuck the ends in the sides, and iaidoka often will finish with a fancier square bow thingy. I know there's other ways to tie the hakama but I haven't seen them in person.

[Charles Mahan]

I'm interested to know the original traditional way?
There isn't one. And the trousers the Aikido guys wear under their hakama aren't worn by many outside the Aikido world.

[jest]

Putting one isn't too hard, it's the folding when you're done with practice that's hell.
I've actually given up; the floor in the changing rooms of our dojo is rather dirty anyway so usually I quickly roll my cotton hakama up and then hang it neatly when I get home, clothespegging the folds.

[John Lovato]

One of the more traditional ways of wearing the hakama is:

Start with a kimono or uwagi and then tie on your obi. Once the obi is tied the knot is slid around to the back, it does not need to be centered it can be slightly to the side so it doesn't hurt as much when you roll. Also there are other obi knots that are flater.

Next grab the front panel of the hakama and bring it to your waist so the top is about 1/2 inch below the top of the obi. This is so you can easily inset your swords in the obi without the hakama getting in the way. The straps are then crossed around the body twice and then tied in the back just below the obi knot.

Next reach back and grab the back of the hakama and place the backboard just above the obi and bring the straps around to the front. The left strap is slid in the front under the straps from the front panel. The right strap goes over all the straps and up through all. Then the knot is tied.

I hope this is not too confusing. This is different from the Aikido method which uses a judo style obi and ties the back panel on first. I hope this helps, and as others have said different styles may have slight variations.

John Lovato
www.yoshidahabujutsu.com

[yoj]

Actually you guys are right, i dont wear zubon either, I think its an affectation taken on by wearing judo gi with side slits which match the hakama slots, hence a gap showing, and needing to cover it, whereas i wear a kendo keikogi.

[John Seavitt]

I've never understood this aikido thing of wearing zubon underneath.

Heh - nothing like it on a hot day! It's not universally the case, but it is very common. Many aikido uwagi are cut in a manner (split on the side instead of the rear) that would be a bit revealing where the hakama opens. I'm not really sure why that's a problem, but there you go. There's also the widespread practice of starting people out without hakama until some rank is attained (which varies a lot by style), so perhaps it's just a familiarity thing. I've always chalked this up to art-specific adaptations - I remember being surprised to see some kendoka decline to wear obi when I started up with that.

Regardless, as to the original question, there are a variety of styles of hakama; martial types today tend to wear a limited subset (as in, just one). They are pants at the end of the day, and while some styles were worn over other clothing (like kimono), mostly they were worn over underwear. At least in the winter. :)

Budoka today would generally appear (excepting the occasional offerings over in baffling budo) in some kind of uwagi, closed with an obi and with a hakama pulled up over. The hakama himo are tied in the front with some knot or other, depending on the style and fashion. I'm sure there's detailed instructions floating around on the web ...


John

[pgsmith]

There are many different ways of wearing the hakama depending upon the art. Differing opinions lead to very different ways of doing things. For instance, in most iaido and kenjutsu ryu with which I have had contact, the aikido tradition of wearing pants under the hakama is considered pretty darn funny. Most in the sword world wear shorts or nothing under it. I have been in traditional dojo where the obi knot is tied in front and left there. Where the back side (koshita portion) of the hakama is tied first and the front is done last. Where the front of the hakama is actually folded over and tucked inside the obi before tying. The keikogi is always put on first with the hakama over it. If you've seen people do it the other way, they have no connection with Japan and shouldn't be wearing Japanese clothes.
I'm interested to know the original traditional way?
That is an impossibility. Hakama have been worn for centuries. That is exactly the same as asking what is the original traditional way to wear pants (which is what hakama are). It depends alot upon whose original traditional way you're talking about. The pants of a mid 1800's cowboy in Texas will be way different than the pants of a King's governor in mid 1700's Delaware.

Had to take a call halfway through writing this, and saw that many others had already talked about it in the intervening time period. Oh well, consider it reinforcement. :)

[chrismoses]

Here's a good site with how to tie obi and hakama. Enjoy!

http://kimonoo.net/kituke51-5.html

[gendzwil]

Well in the only aikido dojo I've trained at, hakama were only worn by yudansha and I got the distinct impression that it was like putting on your badge of rank. Certainly they were treated with a reverence you don't see in a kendo dojo - we fold them up all neat and everything, but we don't hold much reverence for 'em, they're just pants.

In addition to the side-vented uwagi, I'm pretty sure there's an issue with modesty in an art where you're rolling around, especially for the women. But really I think they'd be way more comfy in a rear-vented uwagi, no zubon and maybe some lycra shorts. Ditch wearing that judo-style obi, for sure, way too bulky.

[chrismoses]

Don't forget Neil, that the hakama is also supposed to hide your feet, so it's best when doing Aikido to buy a hakama that's at least 2 sizes too long for you! This also serves to clean the floors as you train and keep the local Physical Therapist employed. :D

I'm not doing much "Aikido" per se these days, but when I do, I generally wear black nike running shorts under my judogi and hakama. That way I can peel off the hakama without being indecent, but am not running around in three pairs of pants. The keikogi zubon under hakama thing doesn't bother me too much *unless* I can see them peeking out from under the hakama, then I throw a gasket and freak out. If your dojo does much zagi waza and has a canvas suface, the zubon thing makes a lot more sense, as a sweaty hakama will stick to the canvas and you will have no skin on your knees in no time. The zubon + hakama will keep the dermis mostly intact.

Sorry for all the Aikido talk. Neil started it. ;)

PS, agreed on the judo obi, I prefer a kaku obi with a flat knot in the back even for grappling.

[John Seavitt]

hakama were ....

I started in Yoshinkan, where one wouldn't end up in hakama until sandan; later in life I trained with Seidokan, where one pulled on hakama around nikkyu/ikkyu. It does make correcting beginners' footwork a lot easier. Still, you're right about the 'reverence' thing; maybe it just comes from the association with higher ranks. Nowadays, I mostly just get the thing in a bag neatly enough to go home and hang on a skirt hanger.

I think they'd be way more comfy in a rear-vented uwagi, no zubon and maybe some lycra shorts. Ditch wearing that judo-style obi, for sure, way too bulky.

Bike shorts, no question. I know some men and women who did indeed ditch the zubon for just that solution. I think Paul mentioned a hakama variation - the front pleat tucked into the judo-style obi that seemed popular with aikido circles.

John

[Tim Mailloux]

This is different from the Aikido method which uses a judo style obi and ties the back panel on first.
John Lovato
www.yoshidahabujutsu.com

I have trained in aikido for 10 years now, I have never seen any aikidoka tie the back panel of the hakama first. I study aikido and MSR iaido. For the most part the hakama is tied the same way in both arts. However in aikido some people do slip the hakama himo though there judo obi. This is done to prevent the hakama from loosening and falling off. When done correctly you can barley tell it was tied that way, looks the same as the way I tie it for iai. Remeber, in aikido we are getting thrown around and need to take a few extra precautions to prevent our hakama's from falling off. Also, in aikido we wear pants under the hakama for modesty sake. When taking ukemi (being thrown) you can land in some awkward positions and hakamas just have a mind of there own sometimes. In any given class there could be many embarrassing moments if we didn't have pants under our hakama.


In iai it is our choice if we want to wear pants under the hakama. We all do becuase we are just used to doing it that way from aikido.


Sorry for the thread drift

[chrismoses]

Tim, nearly EVERYONE doing Aikido in Seattle ties the back first and then the front. I don't know why and it always drove me nuts. Just looked like you didn't know how to wear your gear.

/rant

[Rob Alvelais]

I have trained in aikido for 10 years now, I have never seen any aikidoka tie the back panel of the hakama first.

See it all the time in the West Coast. Very common here for Aikidoka to tie the rear himo first, then tie the front. Yes, and many put the himo through the judo/jujitsu/karate obi. Fromer business partner is from New York (Bond St. Dojo) and that's how he tied his hakama.


As for under the Hakama, after Tateno sensei told us to "Drop em" (Actually, he said, "How can you even think of practicing Iai when you can't even dress properly. Drop em!" and he proceeded to teach us how to wear the hakama and obi) I started wearing gym shorts under the Hakama, as our classes are coed. ;)


Rob

[Tim Mailloux]

Tim, nearly EVERYONE doing Aikido in Seattle ties the back first and then the front. I don't know why and it always drove me nuts. Just looked like you didn't know how to wear your gear.

/rant

Damn! one more thing I am not doing right. The list is getting very long!

Chris,
I saw one of your earlier posts, and agree that when doing lots of swariwaza technique, pants under the hakama make a huge difference in comfort. A couple of years ago I forgot my gi pants, and wore bike shorts under my hakama instead. My dumb luck (or sensei teaching me a lesson) the entire class was done on our knees (swariwaza). By the end of class my knees were so raw they were starting to bleed.


Back to the original thread. The undisputed, universal historically correct, one and only way to tie your hakama (and what to wear under it) is the way your sensei tells you too. End of story!

[John Lovato]

Tim,
We wear the hakama as i described and are thrown around all class with no 'wardrobe malfunctions'. As far as wearing pants under pants, well thats pretty modest. I hope you don't wear your levi's that way. :)

[pgsmith]

Tim, nearly EVERYONE doing Aikido in Seattle ties the back first and then the front. I don't know why and it always drove me nuts. Just looked like you didn't know how to wear your gear.
But if done correctly, you can't tell one from the other after it's tied.
As for under the Hakama, after Tateno sensei told us to "Drop em" (Actually, he said, "How can you even think of practicing Iai when you can't even dress properly. Drop em!" and he proceeded to teach us how to wear the hakama and obi) I started wearing gym shorts under the Hakama, as our classes are coed.
Japanese have a much different view on modesty than most westerners. Reminds me of when I was in Japan in 1996. Found a small iaido dojo in Kawasaki and they let me join their practice for a few days while I was there. The dojo was a single room, and the classes were coed. Everyone arrived and started getting changed. Same thing after class. Just go to the side and start dropping clothes. I tried not to look! :)

[chrismoses]

Damn! one more thing I am not doing right. The list is getting very long!



Whoah there, didn't say you were doing it wrong, just that everybody up here does it that way. I could never bring myself to do it, I just don't like the way the koshita looks all covered up with himo all over it. I'd much rather have the nice clean look of tying the front on first, but then I don't like Bujin's 'Aiki' koshita either. Personally I'd rather wear kaku obi and a more formal hakama/gi arrangement, judogi without hakama, or a t-shirt + shorts/gi pants (for grappling not sword). Depends on how formal the restaurant is anyway. :p

[gendzwil]

Just go to the side and start dropping clothes. I tried not to look! :)
Here's where the long keikogi we kendoka use comes in handy. Take off your shirt, put on your keikogi. It now hides all the naughty bits. Take off your pants under the keikogi, put the hakama on. Reverse to get dressed, voila! Some people aren't comfortable with even that, though.

[Brett Charvat]

"I have trained in aikido for 10 years now, I have never seen any aikidoka tie the back panel of the hakama first."

--Just to muddy the waters even further, for the last three years I've been training in Japan at two separate dojo (both Aikikai), and everyone that I've trained with here straps on the back first, followed by the front himo wrapping around the koshita. Not pretty, I'll grant you that, but the general consensus is that it's a bit more stable during lots of shikko. Whether or not it's true I have no idea.

[Jock Armstrong]

I think the "back of the hakama first" school comes very much from aikido/jujutsu and is a fairly recent innovation designed to keep the hakama from unravelling when rolling around. Since aikidoka don't wear an obi [kaku obi] there is a tendency for the himo to ride up and turn to poo. wearing a karate/judo obi doesn't really give the same support. I was told by a kendoka that the reason the tie their himo then wrap them back was for comfort while wearing bogu. None of the older systems or koryu seem to have idiosyncracies like that. It would seem [this is just a theory mind] that the oldest way to wear hakama [of whatever type -some older styles of hakama didn't have a koshita- you still see them sometimes, one of our students at Aoyama wore that type] was to tie the front first, himo passing over the obi knot around the front where they are crossed and back around to the rear where they are tied off below the obi . The front is raised either slightly below the top of the obi/himo above the obi/level with the top depending on style or personal choice and wrapped around above the obi and tied off level with the frist crossover [at the front] and tied in a neat bow. this meant that all the himo are contained inside the hakama at the back. When Japanese people wear hakama formally at social events, that's how they do it so I'd be inclined to accept that as the "traditional" way and the others as adjustments to the rigours of budo training in the fairly recent past.

As usual, it isn't a matter of right way or wrong way, just what is relevant to the circumstances and dojo.

[yoj]

Like this you mean? (http://www.scnf.org/poh.html)

Does seem pretty odd, i put mine on 'normally' and it stays in place pretty much as it should during throws and shikko, maybe I'm not doing enough ;-)

[Jock Armstrong]

I did some naginata do in Japan and all of the students and instructors wore then front first [himo inside the back ]. Beats me.

[Rob Alvelais]

Like this you mean? (http://www.scnf.org/poh.html)



I don't do Naginata, but I was shown to tie the front himo first, then set the "koshi-ita" and finally tie the rear himo.

Rob

[gendzwil]

I was told by a kendoka that the reason the tie their himo then wrap them back was for comfort while wearing bogu.
The only other way I've seen is the way some iaido people do it, which is to tie the flower-looking knot. But that knot is fairly bulky, so when you put on the tare it makes a lump. Then that lump rubs against the doh and prematurely wears the tare.

[kenkyusha]

We also wear hakama front himo first over kakuobi and it holds-up to some fairly vigorous stuff, while keeping weapons secured... none of us have hera, but floppy koshita is usually just a sign of folks too new to training to have the tension right...

Be well,
Jigme

[Tony Peters]

Someone asked about the various ways I have tied my hak...

1) Aikido= Obi(judo style) knot in front, Koshita under Obi in back, Himo tucked out of the way (I honestly can't remember what we used to do with them) with gi pants underneath

2) Iaido= Obi (formal male type) knot in rear, Koshita on top, Fancy cross knot in front...I usually wear sweats in the winter or drawstring shorts in the summer under the Hakama

3) Jodo= Iaido Obi knot in rear, all himo tied under front of Hakama is what I remember. I always wore surf trunks underneath but then I was living in Hawaii.

4) Here in Japan for Iaido I try dress as formal as possible though I usually look like a poor kendo cousin next to the folks at the Dojo, most of whom come in their everyday clothes...nice thing about Japan I don't "have" to change afterwards to go home, even in my poor "kendo looking" clothes I don't look that out of place on the train...well the clothes don't, my being a gaijin does but that's everywhere I go :rolleyes:

[urbalte]

From the humor section on aikiweb:

Putting the hakama on.
- Step into hakama; pull it up to waist level.
- Drop hakama, turn around and put it on right way 'round.
- pull it up to waist level again.
- drop hakama again; step into it again; this time insuring both legs don't go into the same hole.
- pull it up to waist level again.
- take the front ties in hand and wrap them around and behind your body.
- pull up hakama to waist level again.
-grab ties again.
-pull hakama up again. Hold it in place with elbow.
- Grab ties again. hold them with teeth.
- pull up hakama again. Try to hold it in place by crossing legs in bizarre 'gotta pee' position while trying to grab both front ties with one hand and guide them to teeth.
- leave ties alone; staple front of hakama to belt. Gingerly take up ties trying not to disturb hakama.
- apply first aid to small holes in stomach.
- tuck top of hakama behind belt; grab ties and shove them bodily between belt and gi.
- wrap ties about a dozen times around body; tie in square knot.
- retie in square knot.
- think about joining Boy Scouts to learn how to tie knots.
- tie in big ol' fashioned granny knot.
- untie ties in a hurry; take deep breath before passing out. Wait until face goes from blue to pink - or whatever colour it normally is. Retie a little less tight than before.
- pull up back of hakama, grab ties, pass them between belt and gi.
- tie back ties in front. There should be about 10 meters of tie left over.
- Fold left tie in half, then half again, then half again, then half again, then half again, then half again, then half again until it forms a sort of pad 10 centimeters long and about twice that thick.
- place folded tie horizontally against stomach.
- take unfolded tie and wrap it around the mass of ties and knots and pads over its entire length until it forms a monstrous bow at your stomach.
- adjust cardboard bit so it fits snugly against your stomach.
- look again at carboard bit, then at the hakamas of instructors watching and laughing their heads off.
- cry.
- undo hakama, get out and start over.

LMAO that's the best description of the every budoka's first try. Love the staple idea, with the following first aid.

[Mr. Matt]

With the knot thing, I used to wear the formal bow because it put me in a more formal mindframe when training aikido (yeah, I'm one uh them guys). But one day I read a post here (though I can't find it now), either by Meik Skoss or Dave Lowery, that said basically that the bow was for formal occassions, but knotting them and tucking the ends was for fighting or training. That's a nasty paraphrase, but the basic idea.
I said, "hmm, that's a good idea" and only wear the bow for special occasions now. Guess what? It works. Go figure, somebody knew something that I didn't. Increadible.

[kongoshin]

I always use a (short) judo pant under my hakama. Not that I'm all that modest ;-) but it is practical in more than one way.

First of all, I guess most of us use to fold our hakama on the mat. Doing this in my underwear is not something I would do anyway - but especially not with a japanese sensei watching...

Second, as my sensei told me: the judo gi (under hakama) is worn without anything underneath in Japan - as it is in fact underwear. It is also easier to wash a pair of judo pant than the hakama.

For the hakama, I've been tying it in two ways:

Katori Shinto Ryu:
Used with a iai obi with knot on the back - front tied first.

Aikido:
With the back tied first and the front around a regular budo obi. This to prevent the back plate being bent and ruined during ukemi.

But, as with many things in life: Find your own way :-)

Enjoy your practice!

[gendzwil]

First of all, I guess most of us use to fold our hakama on the mat. Doing this in my underwear is not something I would do anyway - but especially not with a japanese sensei watching...
Take your hakama off, change into your street clothes, fold your hakama. What's so hard about that?

[chrismoses]

Aikido:
With the back tied first and the front around a regular budo obi. This to prevent the back plate being bent and ruined during ukemi.


That's why I wear Tozando's hakama, the koshita is made of rubber, land on it funny and it folds, then snaps back into shape as soon as you stand up. Highly recommended.

Neil, that would be seen as odd in a lot of Aikido dojos, there's a lot of non-traditional 'tradition' built up around the hakama in Aikido...

[gendzwil]

What, you're not allowed to leave the mats with your hakama on? I know aikidoka have a whole thing built up around the hakama that I don't have, coming from a kendo background. Typically we just hang the thing over a locker door or bench while showering and then fold it on whatever flat surface is clean. It's not like we're judoka cramming our dogi into a gym bag or anything though.

[wmuromoto]

If you are looking for the "traditional" way, you might refer to a school of etiquette, such as the Ogasawara-ryu, which holds that the formal way to wear a hakama (such as in formal clothing, not just for dojo practise) is with the front tied on first, then the koshi-ita riding on the front's straps and the obi, therefore the back being slightly higher than the front edge. The back straps thus go downwards a bit to meet at the front, all the straps are cinched together and tied into a knot. The loose ends are then folded into a kind of cross, called the otoko-musubi.

In traditional dress, the hakama bottom shouldn't be so long as to hide one's feet because they'll drag across the floor and you'll trip over it (unless, of course, you're Magistrate Toyama No Kinsan from that TV series wearing those super-long hakama whose legs drag after you for about four feet). Not too sure where the stories about hiding one's feet came from, but a too long hakama would seem h*** to work in doing jujutsu, kendo or iai, don'cha think? You'd be forever tripping over the hems. Even in tea ceremony, a too-long hakama is just a pain.

Anyway, as others have stated, there are different ways that have been developed by various budo to wear hakama according to the exigencies of their practises. The otoko-musubi would indeed rub against a tare so most kendoka don't do that. But it's visible in doing iai, so the dojo I trained at had people all doing otoko-musubi. If a kendo guy didn't do otoko-musubi while doing iai, that was okay too. Whatevers. As long as you didn't tie the straps on top of your head and run around singing "la-la-la I'm a little teapot short and stout..."

I asked Otake sensei of the TSKR once about it, since their ryuha just tie a knot in front and let the ends hang loose, and he said (I'm not quoting him literally since this was so long ago, so it's not verbatim but a VERY loose rendition): Well, if you're putting on your pants and somebody attacks you, you ain't got time to do anything fancy. Just put 'em on and go out and fight.

On the other hand, my jujutsu teacher said, well, we're supposed to wear hakama in training most of the time since it's more formal, but it's a pain in the butt to wear so just wearing practise uwagi and zubon is fine...except that we always tried to wear hakama when doing koryu iaibatto, to learn how to move with sword, saya and hakama, and he then mentioned that the otoko-musubi had some references to kuji-in, and if I studied some of the esoteric stuff about the Shinkage-ryu and Kongo Noh drama, I'd figure it out. I still haven't figured it out.

Here in Hawaii, aikido people put on the hakama with the koshi-ita back first. Their obi straps are different lengths, I noticed, from the hakama I wear for iai. Someone gave me an aikido hakama as a present once and I can't use it because I tie mine on differently and their obi straps are just off to me.

In essence, it's not a matter of one size fits all. Different budo do it differently and wear their hakama differently for different purposes. In the end, though, it's whether or not you can wear it and walk around in it without falling over, tripping over, or getting your hamburger juice over it that counts.

Wayne Muromoto

[chrismoses]

What, you're not allowed to leave the mats with your hakama on? I know aikidoka have a whole thing built up around the hakama that I don't have, coming from a kendo background. Typically we just hang the thing over a locker door or bench while showering and then fold it on whatever flat surface is clean. It's not like we're judoka cramming our dogi into a gym bag or anything though.

It's not that you can't leave the mat, but most Aikido dojos I've been to, as soon as class is over everyone takes off their hakama together and sits around folding them and talking. You would clearly be doing something *different* if you were to take it off without immediately folding it up all pretty like. The Aiki stuff I'm doing now is a lot less, uh, formal. Summer we just wear shorts/gi pants and t-shirts, in the fall/winter some people wear judogi and no hakama, sometimes people wear keikogi tops-kaku obi-hakama (generally no gi pants if you're wearing hakama). Depends what we're doing that night and how much stuff we brought to the dojo with us, the only solid rule on clothing is that olive oil, no matter how traditional for some cultures, is not a uniform... :D

[A. Bakken]

My impression is that aikido people feel kind of naked without "gi pants" beneath the hakama. I'd say it's a case of cultural conditioning - once you've been taught to do something a certain way in a group setting, doing it differently inderectly implies that you're distancing yourself from the group. I went to a couple of judo training sessions some while ago. With my iai background I found it extremely hard not to find faults with their reiho.

Speaking of long legs... My new hakama hangs a couple of inches lower than my previous one, and I have nearly ripped it open several times from tripping over it. Always one to see the positive aspect of things (ulvulv can vouch for that), there's no denying that this has forced me to become more aware of what my feet are doing when I rise from seiza or tatehiza, and to do hakama-sabaki with "rigour & determination". :)

I might also add that in my dojo, the hakama-folding ritual actually symbolizes the quintessential budo values of non-conformism, lack of order and plain laziness. Not to mention the primordeal desire to make it home in time for tonight's "Lost" episode. :D

[gendzwil]

I went to a couple of judo training sessions some while ago. With my iai background I found it extremely hard not to find faults with their reiho.
I train regularily at a judo club, and just grit my teeth. Bad part is, the instructor knows the reiho more or less, he gives the correct instruction from time to time but doesn't reinforce in class. In kendo, try sloppy reiho in front of a senior instructor and you waste time because he's going to stop you and make you do it right. I think the judo guys just don't hang around enough Japanese people to get all the details right.

[Mr. Matt]

One of the things I've seen in the aikido world is that many dojo clean the mats by hand after class. It's kinda a pain in the butt to do that wearing hakama (I've tried) unless you don't mind drying the mat with your hem. So, they'll all take their hakama off, fold them, lay them to the side of the mat, then wash the mat, then get out of the rest of their gi in the dressing room.
Don't know if that started it (kinda doubt it) but it is a practical reason.

(if you're curious about what I mean about washing the floors by hand, watch Spritied away... all the girls running across the floors with scrub brushes)

[Brian Owens]

One of the things I've seen in the aikido world is that many dojo clean the mats by hand after class...(if you're curious about what I mean about washing the floors by hand, watch Spritied away... all the girls running across the floors with scrub brushes)
Amusing (to me, anyway) anecdote about cleaning floors: at the old Silver Lake Dojo in Everett, Washington we didn't have tatami. We had wall-to-wall carpet laid down (unattached) over thick, dense foam padding. So after class we'd line up at one end of the dojo and one by one run a vacumn cleaner up over the carpet. After one up and down pass we'd hand the vacumn over to the next person like some kind of Maid Brigade relay race.

I always found it funny.

Once or twice a month I'd go in when the dojo was unoccupied, roll up the carpet, and take a broom to the pads; then roll them up and sweep the concrete sub-floor. It's amazing how much dirt passes through the carpet and gets caught underneath.