Koryu Snobs Revisited

[Dave Lowry]

To summarize the prosecutoral half of the nearly 80 messages my original post occasioned:
The principal evidence of koryu “snobbery” is A) not very many people have joined koryu; B) the majority of those who have, have done so during sojourns in Japan, and C) they are uniformly firm in their resolve that B was fundamental to A. This discomfits several readers (some of whom claim allegiance to organisations with no demonstrable ties to Japan or its history and who have, the more cynical among us might observe, an interest in establishing the notion that Japan and Japanese culture are scarcely more than incidental to learning koryu)

Apparently seeking to clarify this objection, a contributor poses (I’m paraphrasing) the analogy: Do I need to go to Mexico to learn to cook Mexican food? Though he may intend the question to be rhetorical, it is anything but. It is as well illustrative in a way I do not think he imagined.

To respond: You need, indeed, not go to Mexico to learn to cook Mexican food. Not if your concept of “learning” is the acquisition of some disparate techniques for assembling tacos or burritos, and if your concept of “Mexican food” is limited to a few dishes of some vague ethnic provenance.
Suppose, however, your notion of “learning” is a comprehensive understanding of Mexican cuisine? What if you want to know how the civilisation of Mexico has influenced its food, want to master the nuances of Mexico’s culinary arts? What if you want to roast borrego like they do in Jalisco, bake it as in Zacatecas, or steam it Puebla style and to appreciate the distinctions of each? What if you seek to understand why tortillas vary in size in various parts of Mexico and how this affects recipes and tastes? What if, in short, you want to understand Mexican cooking from the ground up?

You can certainly learn to make some kind of generic taco without ever venturing a single latitudinal degree into la tierra del agua dudosa. You can, by following directions in a cookbook or visiting the kitchen of your local Casa del Estomago Indispuesto. Doubtless you can learn some rudiments of clutching a sword, some discrete aspects of a koryu, never having hopped a wide-body JAL to Sumerami-kuni. But koryu—my colleagues will correct me here if I am mistaken—are disciplines of sufficient complexity that grasping them in any real way—in any meaningful way—demands a perspective exactly like that of the would-be Mexican cuisine gastronome. They cannot be acquired at any higher level without a concomitant exposure to their indigenous culture (Yes, I am vaguely aware that 21st century Japan is different from Sengoku-jidai Nippon. There are few conquistadors and fewer Aztecs running around in modern Mexico, either. Doesn’t matter. Their influences persist, the dynamics of their presence remains, the reverberations of their histories continues. Japan ain’t a damned bit different.)

There are no cookbooks reliably instructing in koryu, in any language. There are no koryu dabblers who can dispense a soupcon of a ryu’s curriculum in the cavalier fashion you might learn how to say, stuff a burrito from a Oaxaca expatriate. (Another point where the analogy breaks down: koryu is not transmitted in bits and pieces. They make no sense that way and have no viability.) The number of chefs capable of teaching koryu cuisines in this country could, no matter what anyone tells you, be counted on the fingers of both hands—with plenty of digits left over. And of those, not a single one would presume to completely instruct their students without expecting those students to spend time in Japan. Even those with full authority to teach have insisted that sooner or later, their students spend time in Japan absorbing aspects of its culture and knowledge specific to the ryu which are indispensable to their mastery and preservation. It is significant that those best in a position to know are unanimous in their opinions on this subject.

It is informative, finally, that a perusal of the opinions expressed by the “non-snob-don’t-need-to-go-to-Japan” contingent reveals a consistent perspective. None seem in any way concerned with what obligations they might eventually come to owe a ryu and in how those obligations might best be dispensed. On the contrary, the primary impulse is to what the ryu will do for me, what I may gain from it. This is entirely consistent with the spirit of modern, commercially oriented budo forms. Observing this or any other distinction, I know, is considered de facto evidence of snobbery. I risk the charge to raise this point: instead of posing the question with yourself at the front (Do I have to go to Japan to learn koryu?), turn it around. How will the techniques, traditions, the philosophy and lore of the ryu best be maintained through my contributions to it? If you truly believe those can be disseminated best in an environment, language, and culture all radically different from the originals, I cannot imagine how you might be persuaded otherwise.
I also don’t think I want to be invited over to your place for the all-you-can eat menudo feed.

[Matthew W. Luedke]

I wish to ask a simple question: does it matter if people think that the practitioners of koryu arts are elitist and snobbish?
I can understand how it would be a personal affront to be considered a snob, and to have an art which you've spent a good deal of your life learning to master called a bastion of snobbery. It probably frustrates koryu exponents, just as it angers lawyers when people denegrade them, and frustrates doctors when people accuse them of being distant and money grubbing. Unlike law and medicine, however, koryu is avowedly not a service sector profession, nor does the well being of koryu depend as heavily on public opinion about its exponents. Because of its postition in a very specialized niche of the martial arts community (a position apparently achieved by both twists of fate and the decision of its practitioners), the koryu will either continue to exist with small numbers of practitioners, or will die off, indipendent of public opinion. While the death of the koryu would be ultimately tragic, it would not be because the conventional wisdom considers them to be snobbish, but because there is no conventional wisdom on the koryu.
I would wager that some 99% of the world's population does not have the foggiest notion of the existance of koryu martial arts. And again, I would wager that the fraction of gendai practitioners that know of the existance of the koryu (both those who post on E-budo and the community at large) have, at most, had contact with the koryu through the books of Diane Skoss, Dave Lowry, and Donn Draeger, and perhaps, seen demonstrations at a festival or seminar. If anything, it is this minute fraction of the world's populace that knows that koryu are in existance, and it's this fraction that would form an opinion.
What of it if some of this tiny population thinks koryu exponents are snobs? Yes, it mars the reputation of the koryu. Yes, it is these few who might, one day, end up learning and passing on the koryu arts. But, as I said before, the koryu are niche arts; there will always be some people interested in learning and mastering them, and if not, then it's because so few people know about them at all, or wish to devote time to them. In fact, I'd be willing to bet a good amount of money on the fact that, if offered, most of the people who would call koryu exponents snobs would jump at the chance to learn the art (people generally love people they consider snobs when they're within their circle, but hate them when on the outside).
So, practically, I'm inclined to think that the big concern of being considered snobbish is personal. But, I also think that, in this case, the practitioners of koryu should let such an insult slide off of their backs. Why? I honestly don't think that the condemnation of snobbery, as issued by people have nothing to do with the koryu, is irrelevant. The koryu are, for the most part, more than two centuries old--some more than half a millenia old. I heard a story once where Harvard was issuing invitations to prestegious universities asking representitives to come to the the celebration of their tricentenial. Oxford sent a reply to the effect of, "We respectfully decline the invitation. We don't make a habit of celebrating odd fractions of the millenium." Is such a reply snobbish? Surely. Does it matter? No, because Oxford has the mantle of venerability and, quite frankly, has the right to be a bit prudish. In the same light, even if koryu practitioners were snobs, I would argue that, at least in part, they have as much right as Oxford does to be snobbish. A man or woman who practices these arts has gone out of his way to embrace and preserve a piece of the past, and likewise, the art they practice confers upon them the credibility of the centuries old institution. And, as Mr. Lowry suggested, he or she does so somewhat selflessly, asking what he or she can give to an ancient art. Yes, while some who practice gendai arts can say much the same thing about doing it selflessly, it is a rare phenomenon. And, because of this, I think that accusations of snobbery ought to be, not so much ignored, but certainly not taken to heart.
I take this chance to say, flat out, that I don't think the koryu practitioners are snobs. No more so than, say, aikidoka (and I am an aikidoka). In _Aikido and the Dynamic Spheare_, Adele Westbrook and Oscar Ratti frequently refer to other martial arts, both gendai and koryu, as "primitive," because they don't adopt aikido's pacificstic ethos and techniques designed to spare both attacker and defender. Is this snobbery? Perhaps, if one wishes to take it as such. Does that make aikidoka snobs? No. So, when a koryu practitioner says that one must go to Japan to truly understand the art and culture of the ryu, or claims a certain knowledge unattainable to the average individual, I would say that that is no more snobbery than the ethos of aikido, and the exponents of koryu are no more snobbish than aikidoka.
I've said too much, so I will conclude with this: koryu practitioners are no more snobs than any other martial artist. And, if they are called snobs, I don't think it should be taken to heart.

With respect to the koryu community from a novice member of the gendai community,


------------------
Matt L.
"Common sense is the most widely shared commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it."-René Descartes

[Gil Gillespie]

Well, Dave, you're fast becoming one of my favorite writers. Even with all your eloquence and that of Ms Skoss et al, I find the snobbery not in koryu but in the insistance that it must be experienced in Japan. And BTW the hands down worst Mexican food I ever had was in Mexico (uniformly heavy and uninspired). To lightheartedly paraphrase Diane: You wanna eat Mexican? Go to California or Mexico!

OK I admit CA & TX were Mexico until one of our imperialist muscle flexxings in 1846 and the Latino culture in both states is "koryu" & hundreds of years old. My koryu experience is MJER Iaijutsu and Shindo Muso Ryu Jyodo. Shimabukuro Sensei (MJERI) is closely in touch w 20th Grandmaster Miura Hanshi in Osaka so the roots are kept strong. My Aikido sensei earned his dan in jo in Fukuoka as a visiting Fullbright scholar in 1988. I don't consider my instruction in these arts watered down because it occurs here in the swamp.

I cherish what Dave said about a budoka's debt to his ryu. This was instilled in me in my gendai Aikido training over the last 12 years. I was able to visit and train in Japan in 1990 and 1999 but I never lived there and trained over a period of years. I know that would leave an indelible mark on my budo experience. Acknowledging that sojourn to be beyond me, I perceive that Japanese experience to be more a gift than a necessity. Budoka who can live and train in Japan I see as luckier, not better. If it happened to me I may feel just the opposite. But it has not.

What has happened to me is the good grace of wonderful instructors who love their art(s) and the Japanese culture from which they emanate. It is more valuable to me to draw my sword in front of Shimabukuro Sensei than it is to be in front of Katori Shrine, although I'd love that experience some day.

In 1990 I trained in Shizuoka with the Yoseikan folks and met Founder Minoru Mochizuki, then 84 years young. Sensei said that as much as it saddens him the future of Aikido and Japanese MA as he saw it was not in Japan but in France (where he brought Aikido in the early 50s) and in America, where he sees the passion and true respect for MA flourishing.

As gendai and gaijin as I may be I would not ever want to separate the Japanese culture from the arts I study. I have never trained in Japan in koryu for a long time. But the best chile rellenos I ever had were on my block in San Francisco.

[Earl Hartman]

(Reuters) Tokyo, Japan

SHOCKING NEWS: BUDO AND BURRITOS NOT RELATED!

Blind Taste Test Makes It Official: "Koryu Doesn't Taste Like Tamales At All", Judges Say

This news just in: scientists, historians, anthropologists, restaurateurs, and various other experts from a wide variety of academic and culinary disciplines, after subjecting the koryu (and, for control purposes, the gendai arts) to a rigorous and exhaustive battery of tests, including a cook-off, have discovered to their astonishment that they bear no resemblance whatsoever to either burritos, chop suey or any other food (even including Wonder Bread with Miracle Whip). Interestingly, especially in the case of the koryu, it appears that they are quite unique and defy facile definition, in spite of their superficial resemblance, in the eyes of some ignorant and uniformed (yet pompous and self-righteous) yahoos, to various ethnic foods.

Attempts on the part of various wanna-be koryu chefs to recreate the flavor of the koryu using only the finest local ingredients failed miserably in a blind tasting. Some of the chefs suspect that the panel of judges, consisting of internationally renowned experts in the field who have devoted their entire lives to the koryu, such as Otake Risuke Sensei, Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei, and Nishioka Tsuneo Sensei, was biased since they had a stake in the outcome (some of the disgrunteld ersatz koryu chefs darkly hinted that the judges had been bribed with the promise of a lifetime supply of Chateau Mouton-Rothschild '35, but this was not proven). The overall verdict: "Some of it tastes OK, I guess, but it ain't koryu".

A formal protest was filed after the blind tasting, with the chefs insisting that the judges be replaced with a truly objective panel consisting of Ronald McDonald, Joe Blow, his brother-in-law Joe Sixpack, John Q. Citizen and his wife Jane Doe, her cousin Mary Anybody, Beaver Cleaver, Rikki Lake, Dr. Laura Schlesinger, and Moesha (Rosanne, Geraldo and Oprah were suggested as alternates. Martha Stewart was instantly and unanimously rejected by all concerned). "Since they have never tasted koryu food before, and, indeed, have never even heard of it before today, we feel that they are far more qualified to judge our imitations on their merits. After all, someone who is completely ignorant of the subject under discussion is far more objective than any expert, since they have no prejudices. All of the experts are just snobs, anyway, walking around with their noses in the air huffing and puffing about "the real thing". What is "the real thing", anyway? If the ignorant schmucks off the street think it's the real thing, doesn't that make it so? Majority rules, right? After all, the guys who paint those velvet Elvises, card-playing dogs, crying clowns, and little waifs with eyes the size of canteloupes move more product than Leonardo-Whatever-His-Name-Is. What's the big deal about the Mona Lisa anyway? Koryu is no different. Nobody, ESPECIALLY the people who have been studying it for years, has any right to pigeonhole it according to their narrow-minded definitons, and anybody who tries to do so is just a big fat snob, so there! Art, shmart, we know what we like!"

The protest was rejected, igniting a bench clearing brawl, which, while fiercely contested, was mercifully short, since although the chefs vastly outnumbered the judges, they were armed only with frying pans, woks, steamers, a few knives and cleavers, uninfomed opinions, and half-baked ideas based on third-hand and fourth-rate information. They were no match for the katanas, nodachis, naginatas, nagamakis, lifelong study, first-hand knowlege, deep commitment and daily training of the judges, who dipatched the self-deluded horde with a deadly accurate flurry of well timed and well placed slashes and thrusts, with an occasional kata-te gyaku kesa giri thrown in for good measure (even though such a waza could be considered a little too gaudy for the occasion, which, considering the caliber of the oppoition, really only required the most basic technique).

The surviving chefs beat a hasty retreat, vowing to peddle their wares elsewhere where no one would know the difference. The "Koryu Radical Action Proletariat" (KRAP) was immdiately formed, and headquarters were established at the local Walmart, just down the aisle from the censored video section.

Earl

PS: Mr. Popie, I'm still waiting for you to explain why a person such as yourself feels qualified to expound at such length on budo, about which you have feeely admitted you know nothing. If you would be so kind, please inform us what martial arts you pracice, if any. Pending your answer, I will take your comments more seriously (or not).

[Earl Hartman]

To All and Sundry:

It occurred to me immediately after I posted my previous missive that although it was intended as a joke, some people may be offended by my use of the actual names of actual teachers. I intended to edit them out, but hit the "Submit" button before exercising proper judgement. It was (is) late at night, and caught up in the spirit of my little prank, I negelcted to exercise proper caution and respect. If anyone is offended, I apologize deeply and abjectly, and will submit myself to the correction of my senpai should they feel it is required.

This is no joke, by the way. If I am hoist, it is properly on my own petard. If anyone is offended, the moderator should feel more than free remove the post from the board, or at least remove the names of actual people from it.

Once again, deepest apologies and no offense meant.

Earl, Nursing His Self-Inflicted Wounds, and Hopefully the Wiser For It

[Matthew W. Luedke]

Mr. Popie,

Mr. Luedke? I can't even drink legally in the U.S., so at my age, I doubt I should be called Mr. Luedke http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif. Matt will do just fine. Further, if we're going to shed each other's blood (not to mention flame each other's posts http://216.10.1.92/ubb/tongue.gif) in heated debate, we should at least do so on a first name basis.

Beyond this, I would just like to point out that you and I do agree to an extent. In fact, you stated my main point more succintly that I ever could: "Why shouldn't those of Koryu... let it roll of their back?" But, I believe we reach this conclusion from different reasoning. I conclude this, frankly, because if Koryu practitioners spend their lives, or a good portion of them, mastering their martial art, then denegrating nattering of people who haven't should have very little meaning for them. I would say the same thing to aikidoka, judoka, karatedoka, etc. who also spend their lives mastering their art: "Ignore the snipes of people who don't know what they're talking about." This is why I'm always amused with long, drawn out threads where people vehemently fight for the "honor" of their style. If you're a capable martial artist, you've devoted your life to your style, and your style is functional, who cares if someone calls you a snob? (This is not to say that fraud and illegitimacy should not be discussed, eg. the thread in the Rev. Dr. High Priest Grand Champion Soke thread in Aikijujutsu). Now this isn't a 007, licence to act like a jerk--people should avoid acting like a snob, whenever possible. Moreover, if you've spent your life refining your skills, you should probably also spend some time learning how to coexist peacefully and unpretentiously with your fellow man. But, there's a fine line between snobbery, and justifiable pride in one's accomplishments and, more specifically, one's vocation. If an observer mixes up the two, or can't tell the difference, then that's a flaw on the part of the observer, and he should be politely ignored.

Oh, and all this talk of authentic Mexican food reminds me of a little hole-in-the-wall restaurant in Cozumel--El Foco... really good food.

Anyhow, must go off to the lab. Ugh!

------------------
Matt L.
"Common sense is the most widely shared commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it."-René Descartes

[Gil Gillespie]

Earl-

Classic post! Loved it. An all-timekeeper. No need to apologize. We don't have to agree. I'm sure you're aware there are very serious 30 yr plus budoka on this forum with "junior member" after their names and only 5 or 6 posts. One of them mentioned to me that as avidly as he reads E-budo he doesn't want to post because there's no need entering frays that have been around forever and that can't be solved.

Who's trying to solve anything? The true value of this forum is that it elicits posts like yours and the literature of Dave Lowry. The interaction is the whole thing, just like the DOING of it in training.

Another of these "jr members" (a dojo sensei sandan in koryu who just returned from training in Japan) sent me a beautiful lengthly e that I encouraged him to post. It would have been one of the pearls on this topic. But respecting his wishes it will remain in his folder. Too bad there.

Some of us do run on at great length. I would only ask that long posts be paragraphed a little more. Take a breath. Hit "enter" a couple times. Actually I have to force myself to read those walls of words. Sometimes I just skim or skip. Posts like that are as daunting as a 20 minute John Coltrane sax solo.

[Margaret Lo]

Heck - I'm hungry.

[Kit LeBlanc]

Hyaku brings up a good point in the "Reasons for Going to Japan" thread that I feel needs to be mentioned here. On the gendai/koryu snob thing.

Let's address the fact that virtually every koryu teacher mentioned here in these threads also diligently practices and sometimes teaches gendai martial arts (judo, kyudo, jukendo, karate-do, aikido, etc.) I would venture to say that most of their students do the same thing.

I would think that if they were really "koryu" snobs they would not deign to practice or teach a gendai budo. How do we account for that?

Kit

[Earl Hartman]

Mr. Popie:

I have no campaign or agenda at all. As a matter of fact, far from having a stroke, I am enjoying the joke. I simply want to know what your experience in martial arts happens to be. All martial artists I know never hesitate to state for the record their relevant experience in the martial arts. They do not brag about it, but they will give the information if asked. You have elected not to do so, for whatever reason. It is for this reason that I find it hard to take you seriously. The false humility and coyness that you display reagrding your martial arts credentials are the marks of a real snob. Why don't you just tell us what arts you practice and with whom you practice them? Who knows, we might find out we know people in common.

I still have yet to understand where you originally got the idea that people who practice koryu arts are "snobs". You couldn't have gotten it from me, since you obviously held this idea before these threads were started. If I am a snob simply because I object to having my firends called snobs in public, then I stand guilty as charged. No person who has any respect for his fellow martial artists would start a thread predicated upon the assupmtion that koryu practitioners are all snobs. Yet this is what you seem to have done, and it is to this that I object.

Earl

[Brently Keen]

Earl,

That news report was exceptionally well conceived. Bravo!

Now, I think this thread has gone on way too long now. Perhaps we could channel the creative writing genius of Lowry-san and others in a more worthwhile discussion?

Frankly, I think some folks have been taken too seriously with regard to their opinions about alleged snobbery and thus they've been allowed to dictate the nature of these discussions a bit too much for their own experience to warrant.

Brently Keen

[Tony Peters]

Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc

Hyaku brings up a good point in the "Reasons for Going to Japan" thread that I feel needs to be mentioned here. On the gendai/koryu snob thing.

Let's address the fact that virtually every koryu teacher mentioned here in these threads also diligently practices and sometimes teaches gendai martial arts (judo, kyudo, jukendo, karate-do, aikido, etc.) I would venture to say that most of their students do the same thing.

I would think that if they were really "koryu" snobs they would not deign to practice or teach a gendai budo. How do we account for that?

Kit

I disagree I know for a fact that one of My Sensei's no longer practice any Gendai arts (he is a student of one of the sensei's mentioned). I'm not sure if one could/would consider MJER Iai a Koryu...I do and my Iaido sensei ocasionally does seitei but not often (lately). Gendai have there place, I got my start (shodan) in Aikido before being seduced by the Koryu arts (three of them) It will be very hard to leave my sensei's in two years when I transfer howeveruntil that time I will not practice any Gendai arts...I just don't have the time nor do I need the distraction.

[MarkF]

Guy,
I wanted to reply before, but John closed the thread. I didn't mean that learning and studying a language in a classroom is not helpful, it just does not help one communicate or understand others in said language. I received very fine grammatical help in school, but it was not until I lived it did I realize the classroom is limited. It took a while, but now I can speak, understand, and even dream in another language. I finally realized one day that I was actually speaking in another than my first language. Thatis what I meant by "not getting help in a classroom" or something like that, anyway. I know you out a lot of time into it, and just so you don't think too harhsly, I did want to clear it up. Actually, learning a froeign language helped my English so much that I was the lab and English club teacher at the two schools at which I taught. See? I didn't even end the sentence with a preposition:D

[Joseph Svinth]

Webster's definition of snob: "1. One who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks association with those he regards as superiors. 2. One who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those he regards as inferior. 3. One who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste."

Now, I seem to recall several people writing that in koryu the student should copy the master's every move, doing exactly what he does, without question. Sounds like definition 1 to me. The general consensus is that Japan is an excellent place to imitate, fawningly admire, and vulgarly seek association with those one regards as superiors. Personally I suspect any bureaucracy could provide similar practice in sucking up, but no matter; definition 1 seems to fit some of these writers' understanding of koryu fairly well. (That of many gendai people, too, but in this thread we are simply talking koryu.)

Do definitions 2 and 3 fit as well? Well, let's try some more quantification. Over time Mr. Lowry has provided varying numbers of North American koryu practitioners. He started with a hundred, changed that to five hundred, and then settled on a number that could be counted on two hands with digits left over. It would have been simpler to say six to eight, but hey, math games are fun. Anyway, I'll assume the upper end of the range and guess that Mr. Lowry considers the following individuals to be legitimate.

1. Amdur, Ellis
2. Armstrong, Hunter
3. Chambers, Quintin
4. Clark, Chuck
5. Relnick, Phil
6. Skoss, Diane
7. Skoss, Meik

Now, that said, a couple quick inquiries revealed that the following individuals also teach what they claim are legitimate koryu arts with the permission of senior Japanese instructors or associations.

1. Angier, Don
2. Banks, Quinn
3. Bodiford, William
4. Cyr, Sebastien (Canadian)
5. Fabian, Stephen
6. Fink, Dennis
7. Friday, Karl
8. Fuller, Lorraine
9. Heisler, Richard
10. Huff, Gregory
11. Maneker, Ken (Canadian)
12. Muromoto, Wayne
13. Pietrelli, Richard
14. Polland, Rick
15. Ray, John
16. Suino, Nick
17. Tanaka, Miyako
18. Taper, Mark
19. Taylor, Kim (Canadian)
20. Yamauki, Sachiko

Now, my question is this -- by whose authority are these twenty people NOT qualified? If the answer is not easily quantifiable and mutually agreeable to all parties concerned, then definition 2 is starting to look good.

Finally, some of the rebuttals written in defense of koryu have struck me as being unnecessarily cruel. (Humor often is when directed at individuals.) As a result I'd score some points for definition 3.

With these thoughts in mind, I suggest that we can now state the following based on quantifiable data.

1. Some koryu instructors are human rather than gods, and dare I say it, sometimes act snobbish, just like the rest of us.

2. There are more than a handful of legitimate koryu instructors. Indeed, the number is larger than the number of good professional boxing trainers and is definitely growing faster. Therefore in another decade koryu should no longer be rare in the US, Europe, or Australia.

3. There are 6-8 legitimate koryu instructors that Mr. Lowry thinks are better than all the rest. An explanation of how the rest fall short might help them someday achieve elite status, too.

One last thought. This whole long messy thread began because a senior student was asked by a junior why koryu people seemed so snobby. Since it is unlikely that the junior personally knew any koryu teachers, it seems probable that he got his misperceptions by reading "Black Belt" or equivalent publications. If so, then columnists for such publications should be urged to write future articles more carefully.

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
Webster's definition of snob: "1. One who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks association with those he regards as superiors.

Now, I seem to recall several people writing that in koryu the student should copy the master's every move, doing exactly what he does, without question. Sounds like definition 1 to me.



No thread from anyone posting thus far given us any indication that anyone is fawning or vulgar. I think your definition of "snob" requires the inclusion of "fawning" or "vulgar".

Therefore, you are left with imitation alone: "Copying the master's every move, doing exactly what he does without question." Well that sounds to me like the traditional method of passing on an art in China, Korea and Japan. Sounds like how calligraphy, painting, flower arrangement and martial arts are taught throughout that area of the world.

Sounds to me that the conclusion that imitation is necessarily equal to flattery or fawning is culturally biased.

-Margaret Lo-

[Edited by Margaret Lo on 06-20-2000 at 08:58 AM]

[Ron Beaubien]

Here is another definition of "snob". This one was taken from the only dictionary I have on hand. Namely, the American Heritage Dictionary (Second College Edition):

"Snob (snob) n. 1. A person who is convinced of and flaunts his social superiority. 2. A person who despises his inferiors and whose condescension arises from social or intellectual pretension."

Might this definition be a little less vague?

I hope this helps,

Ron



[Edited by Ron Beaubien on 06-20-2000 at 10:11 AM]

[Chuck Clark]

Joe,

I don't understand how you came to put me in the first group you listed above. I know those folks and Phil Relnick is my teacher in Shinto Muso-ryu, but I do not teach any koryu art. Jiyushinkai Aikibudo is most definitely modern, although I have been told our practice has many koryu aspects.

We do practice Shinto Muso-ryu in my dojo, the Jiyushinkan, in Tempe, Arizona, but Phil Relnick Sensei is the teacher. Unfortunately, it's one of those long distance "love affairs" and we spend lots of money on airline tickets.

My attitude is this: We've been doing this practice for a long time (sure it changes some, but we do our best to keep the kata as close to what was taught by our teachers and their teachers), and if you want to practice with us, you're welcome. You should understand, though, that this practice will not change for you...you must fit to the practice.

This is a paraphrase of something my teacher has said.

There's lots of junk out there and there's lots of good stuff. Of course, I think what I do is some of the "good stuff" or I wouldn't be doing it! But then that probably fits everyone else too.

If I'm a SNOB... then at least let me assure you all that my intent is gentle and uplifting. One aspect of the definitions that I and my students definitely don't fit is..We do not imitate anyone without question! Great Faith Tempered With Great Doubt.

Regards,

[Dave Lowry]

Mr. Svinth is uncharacteristically careless in his suggestion I have waffled in my estimates. I began by placing the number of koryu “exponents” at less than one hundred. For the sake of answering his argument I noted theoretically that we could quadruple or quintuple my original estimate and my conclusion (that there are not enough koryu practitioners in the West for a newcomer to the budo to have drawn conclusions about them though personal contact) would be unaltered.
In a later message, I placed the number of individuals capable of “teaching” a koryu at less than ten. Practising is not the same as teaching, nor does the former imply the latter. Mr. Svinth knows this. He is as well an excellent researcher and scholar and so he knows better too, than to rely on arguments of pedantry such as quoting a dictionary in an effort to make a point.

[Richard A Tolson]

Well here I go again. I have been trying to hold my tongue since this whole debate began.
First, let me say I have no ax to grind against anyone, koryu or gendai.
I have exchanged e-mails or posts with Mr. Amdur, Mr. Lowry and both of the Skoss's. All have been very cordial and helpful whenever I have asked a question. Ms. Skoss has allowed me to put links from her site on my new website. I have most of Mr. Lowry's books and always recommend them to friends. Mr. Skoss provided me with some valuable info awhile back on the Yagyu-kai. Mr. Amdur has been very forthcoming in information whenever I have asked a question.
So are these specific people snobs? Not in my estimation.
However, have I occassionally read posts here or at Iaido-L that I felt came off abit harsh? Yes, I have. However, to categorize someone as a snob based on a correspondance made on what might have been a bad day is a bit extreme.
I know I have said things on certain forums that in hindsight were rude and hopefully out of character.
So give these people a break!
Hasn't this thread gone on long enough?
Why must all the negative threads always be the ones that go on the longest (like I'm helping here :))?

Richard
http://pub16.ezboard.com/bsamuraibujutsu

[MarkF]

Dave,
It is one thing to paraphrase someone for using another country's cooking style as a means to an end, but you have made the assumption that you know what is what south of the border. In fact, you have not only insulted an entire people, but you have assumed that no one here would question your very good, but very innacurate "dictonary" Spanish. You want to equate koryu with "mexican food?" That's fine with me, but don't make all these assumptions for us. I have not doubt you have knowledge of the poorest regions of Mexico, but you insult them by your quaint, but misfired attempt at humor, and at the same time, you come off even more an example of the topic of your own threads. You may or may not know of what you speak as for koryu, but please do not assume you know jack about Mexico and indeed, Spanish.

Your joke about the land of doubtful water is not only wrong, but you would have the people looking at each other attempting to ascertain what it is you mean. Assuming you know what your dictionary says, by employing the word "borrego," you have insulted an entire people by referring to them as "simpletons." While the dictionary you possess may or may not be accurate technically speaking, you also assume no one will question you on this knowledge, as you have concerning koryu. Might I suggest that before you go on with all your assumptions, that you first make sure you know what the hell you are talking about? You seem to think you are a master at knowing the differences in cooking styles in the poorest and least educated part of Mexico (the Southern part), but even your jokes are not comprehensible, as you use words in your jokes which have almost no meaning in the contexts in which you have used them. I spent a fairly decent part of my life to study and learn the culture, not mention living it, do please keep the comparisons of Mexican cooking, your undoubted travels of Mexico to showing slides to your neighbors. You may or may not like the opinions of others who have researched the matter, but I do agree on one thing. It is much better to live the experience than talk the talk. However, you do come off as one who thinks he has, but hasn't and has only come across as one of the topic's descriptions of some poeple. I for one have read some of what you have written in BB magazine, but it does leave a lot to consider.

[Edited by MarkF on 06-20-2000 at 10:53 PM]

[MarkF]

Sorry, double post, deleted.:o

[Edited by MarkF on 06-20-2000 at 11:22 PM]

[MarkF]

Dave,
You find Mr. Svinth's reply "uncharacteristic?" Do you mean he gave an opinion, along with his "characteristic" giving of figures as well? If memory seves, and without going back to review, you have given at least two differing numbers concerning koryu teachers. That some do not have a "license of transmission," as Mr Clark implies, matters not. You seem to have problems with almost everyone who disagrees with you. You receive nearly eighty responses on your first post because the post was allowed to go beyond the standard of fifty posts on E-budo. Mr. Svinth gave names and numbers to back up his statements which is very characteristic of his posts. You, on the other hand do not mind the doubling, tripling, etc. of numbers you gave, but protest because all the teachers listed did not have a licence to "fix" transmissions. Please take into consideration that you are no different than anyone who posts here. It is a bulletin board, and until everyone agrees it still is opinion. Take the blinders off Mr. Lowry. You may miss a good part of your life.

[Edited by MarkF on 06-20-2000 at 11:27 PM]

[Richard A Tolson]

Woe Mark,
Take a chill pill bud!!!! I thought Joe provided some good insight too, but he was civil about it and so was Dave's reply.

[Joseph Svinth]

Sorry, Mr. Clark, for the mistaken identification. My sources uniformly agreed that your martial arts were as good as they came, and as a result I jumped to the conclusion that you must have been an elite koryu practitioner rather than just another gendai type.

Ms. Lo, regarding my definitions, yes, it is quite possible that Webster's is wrong. Probably I should go to the library and read the Oxford English Dictionary definition, as that remains the English standard. If so, then my analysis is incorrect, as it was based on faulty premises. Nevertheless, as Professor Bodiford reminded us awhile back, when discussing anything one really should begin by defining terms, otherwise we end up talking at cross-purposes. Perhaps we should ask the young fellow who started all this to define his terms, as that is the only definition which is truly relevant to the discussion at hand.

As for the analogy, well, if you find it inappropriate, ignore it. Nevertheless, I do not see how this one is any worse than comparing a class held two nights a week after work to months of intensive training.

Mr. Lowry -- I apologize for any errors, but admit to never having extensively explored US koryu politics and history. Therefore much of what you see here is me thinking out loud.

I also respectfully bow to your greater knowledge and until better information is received agree to henceforth state that on the basis of information received from you there are fewer than ten real koryu teachers in North America today. Do you want to write the other twenty folks notifying them that in your opinion the odds are 6-to-1 that they are poseurs or should I?

[MarkF]

I do apologize to anyone out there who was insulted by the tone of my reply concerning Dave Lowry's knowledge of Mexico and/or Spanish, particularly the Mexican dialect. I just got the feeling that there was more than an analogy being made by Dave. It just goes to show that one had better be sure of what one says in a foreign language before posting it. It is also recommended that since this thread is about koryu of Japan, then leave the analogies as such at home. You never know who is out there lurking.

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth

Ms. Lo, regarding my definitions, yes, it is quite possible that Webster's is wrong. Probably I should go to the library and read the Oxford English Dictionary definition, as that remains the English standard. If so, then my analysis is incorrect, as it was based on faulty premises. Nevertheless, as Professor Bodiford reminded us awhile back, when discussing anything one really should begin by defining terms, otherwise we end up talking at cross-purposes. Perhaps we should ask the young fellow who started all this to define his terms, as that is the only definition which is truly relevant to the discussion at hand.

As for the analogy, well, if you find it inappropriate, ignore it. Nevertheless, I do not see how this one is any worse than comparing a class held two nights a week after work to months of intensive training.



Joe - I would be interested in seeing the Oxford Dictionary definition. My disagreement with the analogy is just that, my opinion. I'm not sure I understand what you mean about comparing classes?

-M-

It seems to me that the real snobs are those members of styles with doubtful origins that continue to try and affiliate themselves with legitimate koryu. I've never experienced any actual instructors of koryu who felt it necessary to put on airs about their practice. Yet, I've met any number of instructors and practitioners of rather questionable styles or organizations who try to align themselves with authentic Japanese koryu while treating all others as inferior. So why all this discussion?

[Dennis Hooker]

What are we looking for? Why do we choose one art over another and why must we defend ourselves as snobs or anti-snobs. Hell, one is as bad as the other, some budo folks are like those fundamentalist Christians that don’t wear jewelry because it draws attention to themselves, but they also make a show out of not wearing jewelry to display their piety. For some folks a koryu connection is principal, too others it is not. One’s training should not be less dear to one just because life’s folly has not allowed a direct connection with the koryu of Japan. However, may feel incomplete and some believe their training has less merit because of this. Therefore, they cast aspirins upon those that have. Also it can be said that “some” of those that live or lived in Japan and trained in Japan in koryu do show arrogance, many times out of proportion to their skill. I know may people, some who studied koryu arts in Japan, some of whom pretend to be warriors and others which are warriors that pretend not to be. Of course, there are those that don’t even consider the issue but are only interested in the art as a personal growth tool, and a living lesson in history.

Having had many of the Japanese and Okinawa arts open to me over the years I selected Aikido and I chose my teachers because of what I wanted and what I was looking for. I also selected my association with MJER for the same reason. I suggest that many folks have done the same thing, and if they get what they are looking for then their training is no less valid than any that have gone to Japan. Also respect should be given to those that set their dream of studying in Japan and then had the courage and good fortune to follow through with their dream.

By the way if anyone wants to put my old ass on a plane, in a coach seat, from Florida back to Japan they better bring an armed guard and restraints. I shall not go gentle in to that good flight!

Dennis Hooker
http://www.shindai.com

[Bill Simpson]

Regarding Mr. Feigenbaum's personal attack on Mr. Lowry.

Mark,

I suggest that you carefully read and read again Mr.Lowry's posts and Mr. Svinth's replies. You are way off base.

As far as your supposed command of the Spanish language, Lowry's use of the word "borrego" in this context translates to "lamb" not "simpletons" as you so imply. Once again read the post carefully.

The "land of doubtful water". Yep, sure is. How many of those traveling to Mexico have enjoyed "Montezuma's Revenge"? I know I have on several occasions.

Based upon your comments, it is obvious you don't know much about Mr. Lowry or his background.

Best,

Bill Simpson

[Dave Lowry]

Dear Mr. Feigenbaum,
The “dictionaries” for my jocular Spanish were a native speaker from Mexico City and a non-native graduate of the U. of Mexico with more than two decades of experience teaching the language.

Borrego is the Spanish word for “lamb.” How the use of the term is insulting is beyond me. I have ordered it, using that word, in restaurants in the US, Mexico, and Spain. If those attending me were insulted, they graciously concealed their outrage and brought me what I requested: lamb.
Contrary to your imputations, I have scant knowledge of Mexico’s regions, southern, poor, or otherwise. I do make my living as a restaurant critic, however, and these analogies come readily for me. In this case, though, you apparently missed the original post in which it was another reader who suggested the analogy, one to which I was merely responding and enlarging.

You make roughly half a dozen references to my “assumptions” on sundry topics. This is flattering. But I’m wagering most readers care less about my assumptions or your observations on same than they do about sharing facts and well-reasoned opinions.

I shall take to heart your admonition that I not consider myself different than others posting here—save for the singular distinction I have of being able to recite the lyrics of “Beyond the Sea” in English, Japanese, and the original French.

Cordially,

[Walker]

Dave,
Is multiple language recital of “Beyond the Sea” koryu or gendai? Obviously, though, it is, undoubtably, drunken waza.

[Michael Becker]

'Snob. a shoemaker, shoemaker's apprentice, cobbler: a townsman: a person of ordinary or low rank: an ostentatious vulgarian: a blackleg: one who makes himself ridiculous or odious by the value he sets on social standing or rank, by his fear of being ranked too low and by his different behaviour towards different classes'.

The above is taken from the 'Chambers English Dictionary', which may be considered on a par with the Oxford English Dictionary-not that it matters. Nor does it make it any better than Websters on any other dictionary. Unless you want to get snobby about it.

[Doug Daulton]

What to say that hasn't been said?

Well, I considered quoting Rodney King ... "Can't we all just get along" or something to that effect. However I reconsidered when I realized that on some of the sub-issues on this thread there is no reason for folks to "get along". Certainly, I am just another schlep adding my two cents, but here it is ...

Adding Larry Bieri and Dave Lowry and subtracting Chuck Clark (by his own admission), Mr. Svinth's initial list represents the very few people I consider to be legitimate exponents of koryu in the US. I must admit that my point of view comes from personal study, albeit limited and long-distance as is the case with Chuck Clark, under Phil Relnick and Larry Bieri and practice with Diane and Meik Skoss and Dave Lowry (all very, very much my sempai). If memory serves ... during conversations outside of practice, all of these folks have spoken with confidence and regard for the skills and knowledge of Mssrs. Amdur, Chambers and Armstrong.

Conceivably, these folks could be treating me like the proverbial mushroom ... keeping me in the dark and feeding me ... ahem ... manure. Not one of these folks have shown me scrolls of transmission or other documents of rank and title which so frequently adorn the walls of the Western (more specifically US) gendai dojo. So perhaps they are full of hot air.

However, all one has to do is watch any of them practice for five minutes to know without question that they know what they are talking about. The same holds true for Mr. Amdur, who I only briefly met but had the great pleasure of watching demonstrate the two koryu which he studies and teaches. The proof is, as they say, in the pudding.

In addition to their physical skills, most of these folks have made it their business to research the history and traditions of the koryu. Furthermore, with the possible exception of Mr. Lowry, I understand that each of these folks is a direct peer or junior of Donn Draeger, the Jackie Robinson/Lafcadio Hearn of Japanese martial arts in general and the koryu in particular.

While none of them speak of Mr. Draeger as if he were a god, it is crystal clear, in my experience, that they take very, very seriously their roles as stewards of their respective arts and heirs to work begun by Draeger.

So if one of these folks elects to comment on the legitimacy of someone's lineage or the veracity of someone's claims of alleged "sokeship", I am confident that they speak with authority and do not take lightly the role of "debunker of personal mythos" or "tengu-slayer".

Speaking from a position of authority is not snobbery ... it is authority ... plain and simple. Let's accept that fact and move on to other discussions.

That said, the koryu are populated by human beings, not gods and goddesses. So like any human endeavor, there is the risk of arrogance and snobbery amongst it's practitioners and teachers. Thus far, I've seen no evidence of it among the folks mentioned here.

As to Mr. Svinth's second list, the fact that I have not spoken of any of it's members should not be seen as disrespect for these folks. I simply have never met any of these folks and am in no position to comment.

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton

PS: Kudos to Earl on his clever and classic "press release". It brought a great sense of levity to this heady discussion. I nearly laughed my self silly (not that it's that difficult for me to do so). :D

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 06-21-2000 at 04:50 PM]

[MarkF]

However, may feel incomplete and some believe their training has less merit because of this. Therefore, they cast aspirins upon those that have.

Mr. Hooker,
I do not know if this was justa typo, but your medical presription to "cast aspirins upone those that have" may prove to be the Rx of the koryu generation, as opposed to those who really did study "koryu" but didn't call it that simply because it wasn't necessary. I, for one. applaud your advice. Being a pharmacist, let me say that you may have missed your true calling.;)

Mr. Lowry,
Thank you for responding, as that was the real purpose of my post. In the first go round, you waited some 79 posts to air your opinions of the peons of the world who may have been simple judoka for nearly forty years. While I looked forward to your responses, they were all very disappointing. Why? Because you made general assumptions based on (assuming all members of this board were lurking) some four hundred or so people who have one thing in common: budo, bujutsu, or, as someone I respect recently explained, that these terms are on a continuum of sorts. My point is we didn't need a point. An opinion would be nice, and a nice discussion on that opinion would be warranted. However, you chose to go on and on and on, based on an analogy in which you decided we needed to know just what you like in the way of Mexican Cooking. That was my point. I just got the feeling from you that all of us must be able to fit within your own skin. Well, sometimes you don't get what you ask Santa for. I did apologize for any remarks which disturbed anyone, but I do appreciate the fact that this time around, you are taking the time to consider everyone, and not just yourself and a handful of others like you. I, for one, am just dandy where I am, although if Japan were on my itinerary, I would want to study as much as possible on the culture and the language before going, and if the apparently magical koryu teacher did not appear, I would at least have far more than that on my plate to consider.

Again, thank you.

Sincerely,

[Joseph Svinth]

Margaret -- The analogy to classes is a pet peeve of mine, namely people commonly comparing training in budo/koryu/whatever to boot camp. The reason is that "boot camp" properly applies only to US Navy and US Marine Corps recruit training, two very different programs that have changed significantly over time. Koryu supposedly do not change, but the difference between "Full Metal Jacket" and the current Crucible program are profound. Furthermore, even were this not the case, in recruit training they pay you to treat you as they wish; in the MA normally you pay them to treat you as they wish. And most significantly, in boot camp they typically assign five instructors to live with you 24-7, and the goal is to build a team rather than the individual. To me, these represent enormous conceptual differences.

Don -- Snobs isn't the right word for the people you describe.

Mr. Daulton -- If everyone wrote as thoughtfully as you (myself no doubt included), then this thread would have died a hundred posts back. For even if I disagreed with what you said (and I do not), well, you stated what was based on personal observation, what was hearsay, and what was opinion.

All -- A moderator hint. After you post an entry (any entry, anywhere), go back and reread it before leaving, pretending that this were the first time you'd ever seen it. Then, if you see something that needs fixing, use the edit feature to fix it. For example, I just added a clause to a sentence that could otherwise have been misconstrued. If you meant to push the limits, fine, but if the error was simply haste, well, it's better to fix in private than apologize in public.




[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 06-22-2000 at 12:24 AM]

[Dennis Hooker]

[Mr. Hooker,
I do not know if this was justa typo, but your medical presription to "cast aspirins

Ak yes, fat little fingers and a dull little mind makes typos a constant source of asumement for many, that's me.
Dennis

upone those that have" may prove to be the Rx of the koryu generation, as opposed to those who really did study "koryu" but didn't call it that simply because it wasn't necessary. I, for one. applaud your advice. Being a pharmacist, let me say that you may have missed your true calling.;)


Again, thank you.

Sincerely, [/B][/QUOTE]

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Popie

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and acts like a duck, it's a duck. :)


Popie I have no idea what you are trying to say. But ducks can be prepared in an infinite number of tasty ways.

-M-

[Doug Daulton]

I'll open this post with a question ... ...

Have Mr. Lowry, Mr. or Ms. Skoss (as seniors) or Mr. Hartman or myself (as juniors) or any of the other koryu folk in this forum been seen posting at any length in, for example, the Judo forum on E-budo? Moreover, have any of us been heard to cast aspersions upon judo as "elitist" and level claims of snobbery against the senior practitioners in that forum?

While I have not combed the entire Judo forum, I would venture to say the answer is no.

Why?

Well, with the exception of Chuck Clark (a senior judo man) none of us are active judoka (I think) and are in no position to speak with any authority (great or small) on the matter. We may have some general thoughts and comments on judo. But none of us would presume to talk about it with authority in the judo "house" or anywhere else for that matter.

Let me be clear, I don't think the koryu forum should be exclusive to koryu practitioners any more than I think the judo forum should be exclusive to judoka. In my opinion, the point of E-budo is to gather and intelligently discuss our respective arts ... to give the knowledgeable a place to share their knowledge and the ignorant (like me) a place where they may be enlightened.

Cross-pollenization is a great thing. In my experience, koryu study has given me new insight into my gendai practice of karatedo and Ryukyu kobudo. And, should a nage-waza question arise, I'd like to think that I could pop into the judo forum for some answers. However in doing so, I try to remember that respect given is respect earned.

So without knowing well that of which I would speak, I'd rather ask my question then keep my mouth shut and listen to the answers given. After which, I consider the reply long and hard before offering clarifying questions rather than knee-jerking into a ill-considered response because I feel offended that someone else has pointed out my own ignorance in their reply to my initial question.

Perhaps by acting this way, I appear the fool. But personally, I'd rather take that tactic than pretend to have an intelligent position on a topic I know little about and remove all doubt that I am indeed a fool by speaking weakly and clumsily on the issue at hand.

I reiterate my earlier point ... speaking with authority is not snobbery ... it is authority. Furthermore, it is ridiculous, disrespectful and patently offensive to imply that the sole reason any of these folks speak with authority and sometimes passion on the issue of koryu ... is to drive sales of their most recent book.

The intelligent and thoughtful reader should be grateful that this research is being done and made available to the public. Or, to bring the conversation full circle, if you think these writers are full of hot air/manure ... go to Japan and find out for yourself,

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton

Postscripts ...

To the members of this forum:
My apologies for the length of this post and the rancor which it may exude. I simply grow weary of reading a circular debate which is ill-considered and ill-constructed. I suggest we all move on to a new topic.

To Dave Lowry, Diane Skoss, Meik Skoss and Earl Hartman:
If I have presumed too much in this post and any or all of you are indeed in a position to speak with authority on judo, please accept my apologies.

To Mr. Feigenbaum:
As e-mail and forums can be a less than perfect media, I want to be clear that I wasn't singling you or your art out. Judo was selected as the foil in my post solely because I am almost 100% assured that none of the folks I mentioned is an active judoka.

To Mr. Svinth:
Thanks for your kind words. At the risk of appearing like this is an elitist, mutual admiration society :), let me say that I've very much enjoyed your posts and find http://www.ejmas.com to be a great resource.

Mr. Popie:
You wrote ...

"Martial arts are martial arts right? Why should it matter if we draw a 17th century bow or a compound bow. Both use the same process"

To which I would ask, have you ever drawn an archaic longbow? Or a modern compound bow? If so, then you should know that the two processes, while similar on the surface, are quite different, have different physical demands and result in different flight physics.

For example, the cams of a compound bow allow the shooter to draw and hold position for great lengths of time in comparison to a longbow or recurve bow. This makes the requirements of hunting with one quite different than the other. Is the goal the same? Yes ... hit and kill the target. But the techniques and application of the bow as a weapon are quite different.

Depending on the circumstance and goals the shooter, one approach may indeed be superior to the other. While I am no longer an avid hunter, my friends who are almost uniformly say that if you know how to shoot with an older style weapon (long or recurve bow) you will be a far more skilled and effective shot with a modern, compound bow.

Why? Because the demands of recurve shooting teach the shooter more patience and discipline in shot selection which, with regular practice, invariably results in a higher percentage of kills.

With this in mind, perhaps you may reconsider the koryu and their value to the gendai budo practitioner.

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 06-22-2000 at 12:55 PM]

[Jack B]

J.Svinth wrote: "Sorry, Mr. Clark, for the mistaken identification. My sources uniformly agreed that your martial arts were as good as they came, and as a result I jumped to the conclusion that you must have been an elite koryu practitioner rather than just another gendai type."

Heheh. Joe, I like your posts. While this was undoubtedly tongue-in-cheek, I think it demonstrates where the "snobbery" impression comes from.

As far as I can tell, this whole firestorm is just the same JUTSU VS DO question all over again. It started when Donn Draeger drew the line between jutsu and do and everyone interpreted it as a Western Aristotelian dualism.

If you do a JUTSU, you still display good BUDO (or not). I never heard the expression "he has good bujutsu".

I think it's a trend thing. The last century or two, the trend was to be modern and things started to be called DO. Now, heritage and legacy are more valued and everyone wants to do JUTSU, and "gendai" is becoming a pejorative like "legacy" is in the IT world.

By the way, koryu arts ARE more rare and exclusive. Since it takes more committment to get in, it stands to reason that koryu practioners may be comparable to, say, the upper 5% of the budoka bell curve, dedication-wise. However, if 50% of 500 koryu students get really good, and only 5% of 5,000,000 budo people get really good, that means budo produces 250,000 really good budoka and koryu will produce 250. That gives you 250,250 people who have added value and depth to their lives, which is the real point, isn't it?

I'm primarily a gendai budo practitioner, so I hope the above statistical prediction is without snobbery. ;)

Jack Bieler

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by Popie
Out of courteous and clarification incase it is a matter of importance to you, the point of my post and statement was not to pit koryu against modern arts against each other. It goes beyond this. The word "process" was used in general action and not in explicated mechanical detail. I apologized that was not clarified and initiated a forward argument. My intention of the word used was much in the same way Koryu is used here on E-budo.

Originally posted by Popie
I find it strange there is a "Koryu" site, and "Koryu" dissemination writers as far as this goes. Who is this stuff for anyway? I am sure those who train don't need it?

Mr. Popie,

If your point is not to pit koryu and its exponents against other budo, why do you insist on doing so?

As for "explicated mechanical detail" and "Who is this stuff for anyway? I am sure those who train don't need it?" ... well sir, the devil is, as they say, in the details. The ability to speak with authority on any topic, be it koryu or cooking, comes from having enough experience (training) with the subject to know the finer points ... the "explicated mechanical details".

It further stands to reason that if, like the koryu exponents mentioned in this thread, one has sufficent experience in both the koryu and the gendai budo,then they may be in a position to intelligently discuss the relationship of one to the other ... not as an debate exercise, but as a dialogue designed to both share and gather information. If one does not have the experience described above, then I suggest one, at the very least, refrain from disparaging those who do.

Originally posted by Popie
I say, more bluntly, some people gain from such perspectives. Which I might add these people are not so ethical. I prefer reading the life of those who head koryu's or made great achievements which are authorized by them. Not trash novels of romance, color commentaries, or the self-proclaimed experts etc. I much rather read from words written by presidents, then some hack writer making a buck.

I can only assume that you refer to Dave Lowry, Diane Skoss and Meik Skoss . Clearly, you have not read any of their work, if you had, you'd certainly realize that they are anything but hack writers. As for preferring "words written by presidents" ... pick up Koryu Bujutsu and read "The meaning of martial arts training", Meik Skoss' interview with Sawada Hanae, hanshi of Tendo-ryu. Or pick up Sword and Spirit and read "Uchidachi and Shidachi" an article by Nishioka Tsuneo Sensei, a prominent menkyo kaiden of Shinto Muso-ryu Jo. I challenge you to find any works of similar import and quality in the English language. (BTW - I don't get any royalties from sales of these books :D)

I could elaborate further, but I won't. My point is simple. These folks have made it their life's work to bring the words, thoughts and teachings of the most senior exponents of the koryu to the West-bound practitioners of all budo ... like you and me. Intelligently question and challenge them if you must, but do not bite the hand that would feed you if you let it.

As for personal gain ... do they sell books? Yes. Do they gain when a book is sold? Certainly. Do you draw a check from your job? There is no sin or arrogance in gaining from the fruits off one's labor. In this case, the persons in question have made considerable personal and, I assume, financial sacrifices to earn the knowledge they now choose to share with us. Here again I can tell you from personal, albeit limited, experience that none of these writers live lavishly.

In fact, when you consider how small the market for their knowledge really is, it is surprising they make a living at it, much less get rich as you would imply. Aside from their impressive knowledge, they are quite average and everyday people (no slight intended). Mr. Lowry and the Skosses do not sit around on their yachts in the Hamptons sipping Dom Perignon (sp?) and chuckling to one another about the millions they earned by pitching their books on E-budo. (If they were, my percentage would be around $200K year ... oops I said I didn't get a royalty before didn't I? Oh well, I guess I let the cat out of the bag. ;) )

As to the issue of being "self-proclaimed experts", I restate my earlier point that while I've seen no kakemono (scrolls) from any of these folks, I've seen their waza and that in and of itself speaks volumes. I am quite certain that if you were to travel to Japan and ask the headmasters of their respective schools, they would be happy to confirm the veracity of their claims. Again, I say ... authority is not arrogance or snobbery ... it is authority. If you have information which soundly refutes their claims, then present it to this forum. Else, please let it be.

Finally, your vague claim that "these people are not so ethical" ... is at the very least ill-considered. There is a difference between fact, opinion and subtly offering one's opinion veiled as fact. If you accuse people of being unethical, at least take a moment to clearly explain your reasoning and provide demonstrable, supporting citations of the unethical acts. Were it to exist, I am sure everyone here would find such documentation very interesting and enlightening. Else, I again suggest you let it be.

Originally posted by Popie
Also I applaud your call for intelligence discussions. But, should we limit discussions of only those that what makes us comfortable, or in praise or defense of those we admire, and what those who are just back slapping posts? In this thought I was reminded to Mr. Undmark's thread titled "claiming true Koryu." A post which no one answered him, something he predicted. :( His point is well taken.
[/B]

I am not the least bit uncomfortable with this discussion. Challenge and debate are at the root of progress and learning. However, for the debate to be of value, it should be based on fact and not supposition. My posts are not so much in praise of Dave Lowry or the Skosses as they are a matter of setting the record straight and requesting some genuine discussion and debate, not simply ill-formed flames.

Truth be told, I have better things to do with my time than defend these people. Nor do they genuinely require my defense as they are quite capable of doing so themselves. However, the hackles on my neck raise when I see good people torn apart for doing something they love and helping other people along the way. It makes matters worse when the arguments are weak and full of half-facts. This not only demeans the parties involved, but the entire process of dialogue and learning as well.

Upon review, I must admit that my string of posts will most likely cast me in a light of an arrogant, snobbish koryu practitioner. This was most certainly not my intention.

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton

PS - I tried to read Mr. Undmark's post, because the header appeared interesting. However, the message I receive is essentially blank. Are we to chime in there and say "I do this koryu or that koryu" and "I've been doing so for XX years?" Please clarify.


[Edited by Doug Daulton on 06-22-2000 at 05:41 PM]

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by Jack B
By the way, koryu arts ARE more rare and exclusive. Since it takes more committment to get in, it stands to reason that koryu practioners may be comparable to, say, the upper 5% of the budoka bell curve, dedication-wise. However, if 50% of 500 koryu students get really good, and only 5% of 5,000,000 budo people get really good, that means budo produces 250,000 really good budoka and koryu will produce 250. That gives you 250,250 people who have added value and depth to their lives, which is the real point, isn't it?

I'm primarily a gendai budo practitioner, so I hope the above statistical prediction is without snobbery. ;)

Jack Bieler


Mr. Bieler,

I like the statistics and the conclusion. If these 250,250 folks are adding value to their lives, then in in my opinion, that is one of the keys. Thanks for adding this perspective.

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by Popie

I will leave with this thought. Being Koryu or not seems to important to many despite their claims, and how well their eggs are done. Martial arts are martial arts right? Why should it matter if we draw a 17th century bow or a compound bow. Both use the same process, etc. Both at their time of inception were the best design made. Well it matters to some for reason and definitions that heated this thread. there are people who make their living off (recently or sometime in their lives)the idea of Koryu and have an vested interest in the discussion. I think they keep Koryu alive in this matter 'cause is important to them as they are recognized for such, and/or for increase in product sales. I find it strange there is a "Koryu" site, and "Koryu" dissemination writers as far as this goes. Who is this stuff for anyway? I am sure those who train don't need it?

Sorry Not Interest In This Flame War:(



Mr. Popie,

I bring your attention to the quote above because it was you who threw down the gauntlet, not I.

It was and is not my intention to touch off a flame war, rather I felt the need to respond to your initial question and the ensuing back and forth has lead us to this place.

If you are no longer interested in continuing this discussion, then let us consider it closed.

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton

PS - I must be incredibly dense, because I still don't get the reference to Mr. Undmark's post. Can someone please help a drowning man?

[Chuck Clark]

Hi Doug,(and the rest of you folks)

It seems to me that Mr. Popie likes to jerk as many chains as possible just to hear the rattle. Certainly nothing of much import is coming out of this.

I have an ex-wife who used to say things to get some drama going or hurt feelings and then would say, "You ought to know better than to take me seriously." Yeah, well...

I suspect that this topic will be the last thing on our minds as we bow in at our next practice.

Sincerely,

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by Chuck Clark
I suspect that this topic will be the last thing on our minds as we bow in at our next practice.

Chuck,

Well said. Thanks for the reality check.

Doug Daulton

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Popie wrote:


I am refraining from answering any posts with the intent to flame me by calling into question my opinion or supports in a manner of stratagems that are obviously and blatantly sophomoric.

What? Mr. Popie, no offense intended, but I for one am having alot of trouble following the mindset of your posts.

May I suggest that you choose phrasing's that are perhaps a bit more comfortable for you, and as Mr. Svinth mentioned subtly, double check your posts and consider editing them if they don't make sense. Not that we're all briliant writers here, but I've taken to passing over your posts regardless of how deep the content may be because it's giving me a headache trying to follow your writing.

Also, FWIW, if you really are interested in learning (I know I am), it might be a better strategy to lurk in the background and read for a while (until you feel there is an educated point of view that can contribute to the thread) than to pipe in with filler after every other post; for two reasons:

1) I suspect that people are not reading your posts with alarming frequency as things stand now.

2) If you create unnecessary "noise" on a board, you will scare off those that might have something insightful to say. These types of people are very sensitive to noise! Then the board will be like so many other boards out there where people have nothing to say but they say it anyway. Shhhhh..... be vewy quiet.

I hope you take these points into consideration, because if you think about it, there has to be a reason why everyone is picking on you and not on the other posters.

Good luck on your decision,




[Edited by Nathan Scott on 06-22-2000 at 08:32 PM]

[Michael Becker]

The reason I look at E-Budo is to learn about different martial arts and hopefully have some friendly discourse with fellow enthusiasts. I assume that I am not in a minority in this.

I have also purchased and read most of the books written by Dave Lowry and Diane Skoss. Even though I dont practice a Koryu, I feel that I have benefitted enormously from what I have read. I am very grateful that they have chosen to put their experiences into print. That is my own opinion. If somebody wants to read other books then that is their choice. I certainly dont make any judgement on that.

The fact is that if an intrested person wants to get reputable information in the English language on Koryu, then the only work that I know of is by Donn Draeger, Dave Lowry, Diane Skoss, Karl F.Friday and people known to them.
There may be others, but they are keeping themselves to themselves.

More often than not, if you want to study a martial art at its highest level, then you have to go to the source. That is not limited to Japanese martial arts. Serious martial artists in many different styles have travelled across the world to sample the cultures that created the arts.

In my personal experience, the best martial artists that I have met have visited the countries of origin of the styles that they practice. My Tai Chi Chuan instructor has visited Wudang moutain and the Chen family village even though he did not learn his art in these locations. The people that I learned Malaysian Seni Silat from studied in Malaysia. I have met Judoka and Karateka that went to Japan because they beleaved that they would benefit from the experience. It cannot therefore seem outlandish to suggest that Koryu might be best understood from going to Japan.

Saying the above, I know of two highly respected Jujutsu practitioners in England that learned their arts, from Japanese and western instructors, in England. Both gentlemen are qualified instuctors in traditional styles.

At the end of the day, martial arts are a human creation, ( yes, I know about the Tengu stories ), passed on to other humans. The location in itself is not the most significant thing-the teacher is. But if you want to understand what the teacher is trying to tell you, it is important to understand where he or she is coming from. That is you have to have an appreciation of the culture that shaped the school. That appreciation is often best gained at the source.

Koryu seem to be at a stage where Judo and Karate were forty years ago. Instructors in the west are so few that it is neccessary to go to Japan to study. That may change in time, though it has to be remembered that to gain a teaching license in the Koryu takes appreciably longer than in many other martial arts.

Koryu may never become very widespread because they are unlikely to be as popular as other martial arts. That is not elitism but rather personal choice.

Maybe it is time for the moderator to close this down.
Never has so much been said about so little.

With all due respect to Diane and Meik Skoss, Dave Lowry, Karl Friday, Donn Draeger, etc., I do not think that only legitimate koryu practitioners are capable of researching and writing about koryu. I have enjoyed many of their books and articles. However, one of the best books I've ever read on koryu by far is "Armed Martial Arts of Japan" by G. Cameron Hurst. According to the bio info, he is an exponent of Tae Kwon Do, a Korean art, and Okinawan karate, certainly neither of which could possibly be considered koryu.

[Edited by budokai on 06-22-2000 at 10:12 PM]

[MarkF]

I must agree with Don as well. One of the best writers of judo history would not know uchi mata if it came up and bit him, and I think that is true here, as well. No, to be a writer of koryu, you first, need to be able to write, you must get the facts as you find them, and then you must have passion. Are there writers who can write about MA who are not MA? Certainly. Passion for writing and passion for doing are necessary, but not always at thesame time. Have enough passion, and you can recreate the world. Sometimes, you find it in places you never thought to look. The trouble is, that not enough are willing to search.

[Michael Becker]

I wouldnt dispute that you dont have to neccessarily practice something to write about it. However, what makes the work of Donn Draeger and other Koryu practitioners so valuable is that it is written by people with an intimate understanding of the subject. The research that they have worked from is primary rather than secondary.

Also, I dont think that someone that does not practice a particular martial art can really understand the fine detail. This is particularly the case when a school contains 'inside the door' knowledge ( secret techniques and oral instruction ). Unless you actually practice some schools methods you will never be privy to any advanced teachings. This I know from personal experience in the Chinese martial arts.

A good example would be The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi. Dave Lowry wrote an informative article several years ago on this book. One of the points that he made was that the book was a text written for a student of Musashi. There are references in the book to various sword techniques that 'outsiders' would not have the slightest clue about. I have read the book myself, but my understanding of it is unlikely to come close to that of a Koryu practitioner.Many of the scrolls in the Koryu are deliberately vague to prevent outsiders gaining any understanding. You have to practice the method to really gain an understanding on it.

So, when it comes down to it, when I want the best source of information in the English language on Koryu, I will get a book written by someone who has been there and has experienced them.

[Diane Skoss]

Hi Doug and Michael,

Thanks! I've been trying to think of a way to say some of what you've both said, but found it impossible (since I appear to stand as one of the accused snobs--I must admit that it rankles, since I was raised by a farmer's daughter and really despise snobbery) to do so with any grace.

For the record, Doug, Meik is practicing judo--mostly because he enjoys the company of his training mates, and because it keeps him in shape, and he flat out enjoys it. I don't think he's getting ready to write a book about it though :)!

Cheers!


[Edited by Diane Skoss on 06-23-2000 at 11:55 AM]

[MarkF]

Hi, Michael,
I didn't meant imply that someone could write about the nuances of an art, but one could write the history and its use,eg, in today's society, have all the facts in the world and put out, if not accurate in the doing, it can be accurate as to when, who, what, where, and why. Another may be how one becomes accepted to a particular ryuha and why some are not. I realize to write about any art, and that goes for the cultural arts as well, such as music, painting, and, well, writing. One does not have to know a note of music to play it either, and most people who do write about it, do not play or paint. That was my point. Of coure is one is going to write about something by experience it totally, then one would have to become immersed in it, but to write about something in which you have an informed opinion takes time and research of the thing.

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Popie,

Just thought I'd try to help.



[Edited by Nathan Scott on 06-23-2000 at 03:06 PM]

[Jeff Cook]

I am coming into this discussion quite late, and I have not read every post, but I did read the first few, and I think I have scanned enough of the others to make a few remarks that I think are pertinent.

Actually, I would like to make an observation, and maybe the folks that are intent on self-improvement may take a close look to see if this applies.

I have met and got to know some folks, both Japanese and non-Japanese, who are practitioners/masters of koryu arts.

Without exception, the SNOBS have all been westerners that deplored the fact that they were not born Japanese. The snobs are trying so hard to justify their "ownership" of the koryu by grasping at things Japanese that really have nothing to do with the spirit of their art.

This inevitably invokes racial views and prejudice, but apparently not from native Japanese folks who study koryu, but instead from Westerners studying koryu (although this has not always been true).

Relax your grip. The learning process is a life-long endeavor. Learn the culture of your art. But don't let your study of the culture overwhelm your study of the art, and the subsequent self-improvement that should be liberating, instead of stifling and restrictive.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[George Ledyard]

I have some direct experience in this area. I am a long time practitioner of Aikido. It is the foundation of my training and my great and abiding love. I was truly fortunate that I found a great teacher in Saotome Sensei through pure good luck.

I have also been fortunate enough to have some little exposure to the classical arts and some of the few American teachers qualified to teach them. I was blessed by the having the opportunity to study Buko Ryu Naginata and Araki Ryu under Ellis Amdur Sensei for several years. I derived tremendous benefit from the exposure and it changed my Aikido practice substantially. But I never attained any level of certification and have not been able to continue my studies in the area much as I would have liked to. Nor do I believe that Amdur sensei was in the end happy with the experiment he made with teaching his initial group of Americans when he came back from Japan.

I completely understand his dissatisfaction with the results. The circumstances of the training did not produce the proper absorption of the heart of the Ryu we were studying. In my case I was definitely approaching the practice from the standpoint of what I could gain from it in my overall development not from the standpoint of in a sense of having my practice be defined by the Ryu. Anyway the attitude wasn't the right one from the standpoint of properly transmitting the two styles.

So now we hit the real crux of the matter. Do I maintain that through my exposure to these arts I attained anything more than a very superficial understanding of Ryu? No! Does that mean that what I did get from the training is without value? Depends on your point of view. From the standpoint of preserving the Ryu intact for another generation, as it should be, my dabbling was irrelevant. I play no part in that. From the standpoint of my own overall practice it was extremely valuable. The insights I received through participation in this training with such a wonderful teacher, as Amdur Sensei has been invaluable to me. But it is my karma to make my contrubution, what I give back to the art as Lowry Sensei has mentioned, in the Aikido sphere.

People in our culture desperately want to get validation for what they do and who they (think) they are. They turn to all sorts of external sources to get that validation. We are at the point in our culture where we have even attempted to legislate that validation. We are all equal, all just fine; no one is better than any body else.

But this attitude is just a reflection of our insecurities. In relation to this discussion it is simply a fact that really understanding a Koryu in an authentic manner requires duplicating as closely as possible the broad spectrum of experience that needs to comprise the training for it to carry the techniques and values to the next generation without distortion. The teachers of Koryu who point this out are branded as elitist and snobs. But that is simply a bunch of sour grapes. Folks don't want to be told they can't do or be something. It's un-American. Well get over it. The only way to get what they have is to do what they have done to get it. Give up a huge part of your life and spend twenty, thirty, forty years of it immersing yourself in a way of life that is fast disappearing in its own homeland. In most cases this requires going to Japan but not absolutely always. Angier Sensei of the Yanagi Ryu is recognized as a legitimate teacher and he did it training with a Japanese teacher in New York State. But his experience was fairly unique.

So unless you are willing to make the sacrifice, you CAN'T DO IT! Get over it and stop whining. You don't need somebody else's validation to have your own practice. So you're not doing Koryu, so what. Does that mean you can't study sword? Does that mean you can't learn to fight? Does that fact drain the legitimacy out of your practice? Of course not. Your practice needs to come from your heart. You're an American. Japanese teachers can give you information and perspective that you can't get from within our own culture but that is not going to make you Japanese (thank God). Just as Buddhism moved from India, to China, SE Asia, and finally to Japan and in each case transformed itself, Japanese martial arts are going to transform or die. There is real value in preserving the arts as they have been passed down but the number of people who have made it their business to do so is quite small. They should be treated as a wonderful resource. That doesn't mean that because you can't be them your practice is diminished. You don't have to be from a Koryu to know that there is a tremendous amount of garbage passing for martial arts out there. I think it is nothing short of pathetic that some teachers such as one we have out here in the Northwest here have to invent credentials to give themselves legitimacy (he claims to be an Aikido 8th Dan) or invent associations with other styles as if that is required to make it real. Or those that don't consider it Aikido if they can't demsonstrate that O-sensei was doing some technique in the year 1950. What a bunch of insecure people! What a mess of ego going on.

Do what you do and do it sincerely and well. Train hard and use your common sense about what you are practicing. Find a good teacher that treats you respectfully and is open about what he does and has a genuine desire to help you in your training. Stop worrying about whether you are as cool as the Koryu guys. They are unique. They are very knowledgeable. They are very good at what they do. So what? You waste a lot of time and energy trying to convince yourself and others that you can be just as important as they are. Get a life and find your own way. Unless you want to try and duplicate what they have done you don't have any choice anyway


[Edited by George Ledyard on 06-25-2000 at 01:42 PM]

[Aaron L. Seay]

Mr. Ledyard writes:
"Stop worrying about whether you are as cool as the Koryu guys. They are unique. They are very knowledgeable. They are very good at what they do. So what? You waste a lot of time and energy trying to convince yourself and others that you can be just as important as they are. Get a life and find your own way"

If the original question was, why do the Koryu people think they're so cool, then I guess the answer is, because everyone else thinks they are. 95% of the posters here seem to agree with that assertion, and if the definition of cool is that which everyone thinks is cool, then I guess it must be. That's ok, My opionions are usually in the minority.


But, again, I'll say that I think Mr. Ledyard's arguments are based on the assumption that "that's what all of us want". Why is it so hard to believe that some of us might actually like what we do, and how we do it, and where?

Speaking of Aikido; I started out in Aikido, and I was quite snobby about it, along with everyone else. All the Aikidoka were just convinced that what they were doing was such an enlightened martial art, and so far evolved above the ugly violence found in the other arts.

When I spent a (short) amount of time studying Brazilian JuJutsu, the common attitude there was that the only people NOT studying with them were the ones who just haven't opened their eyes yet.

Even now, I'm still convinced that the Art I study and the teachers I have are the best. Maybe there's a fine line between snobbery and ethnocentrism (or, the MA equivalent of that). Everyone thinks that their race is the best, their country, their state, their religion...I see no reason why this should be any different for Martial Arts.

Personally speaking, I love history, but I have no desire to be a professional historian. The Koryu guys seem to be Caretakers of Ancient Traditions...and if that's their calling in life, great, I'm sure that everyone can benefit from their efforts. But, it would be a non-sequitor to assume that that's what all of us are aspiring to be.

We were admonished earlier to think of MA in terms of not what we can get out of it, but what we can do for it...a variation of the Kennedy sound bite. But, I think everyone at least starts off with selfish reasons "Ooh, this looks cool, think I'll try it out" and then later as you mature you start to feel the weight of responsibility for transmitting what you know. I'm sure when my teacher ends up in the nursing home I'll be faced with that giri (if I'm good enough). Until then, I'll just keep trying to learn as much as I can in preparation for that time...

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by Aaron L. Seay
But, again, I'll say that I think Mr. Ledyard's arguments are based on the assumption that "that's what all of us want". Why is it so hard to believe that some of us might actually like what we do, and how we do it, and where?

The points of Mr. Seay and Mr. Ledyard are well taken.

To clarify a point from my previous posts, I don't think the koryu are necessarily of any greater inherent value than the gendai budo. I simply think they offer a different value than the gendai budo. Not better, just different.

As Mr. Ledyard suggested, I think the gendai practitioner can enrich his/her practice by the study of the koryu. And in turn, I think the koryu can and have benefited from the growth and popularity of the gendai budo. So, like it or not, there appears to be a symbiotic relationship 'twixt the two.

Perhaps the issue of snobbery springs, not from the actions of individuals, but rather a simple "generation gap". Often, like the opinions of our grandparents, the koryu (and their exponents) are misinterpreted a stagnant or dead ... having no modern relevance or application. And the gendai budo, like upstart teenagers, are often seen as wet-behind-the-ears and reckless I make these distinctions with affection and respect for both. Are these perspectives accurate? Yes. To some extent I believe they are.

Like elders and teens, the koryu and the gendai seem to clash, thinking they have little or nothing in common ... the gendai think the koryu are trying to oppress them by holding them to dying, antiquated ideals ... the koryu think the gendai are too "big for their britches", unwilling to listen to the counsel of years and lacking anything of real value to say or do. Both "sides" want the other to see the value and strength of their positions. Both want the other to respect them. Both think that they do not need the other. In budo, as in life ... I think this last point could not be farther from the truth.

In my opinion, the serious gendai budoka need the koryu because, like our grandparents, if we listen and trust the koryu we can learn some of life's (or in this case combat's) toughest lessons and hardest truths by learning from the past ... from the mistakes and lessons of the generations who've gone before us. On the other hand, as many have pointed out, the koryu in many cases are dying arts. To stay alive, they may require the exuberance, vitality and popularity of the gendai budo to bring serious practitioners to their doorstep, and possibly into the fold.

Does this mean that practitioners of gendai budo should be looked down on by those of koryu? Absolutely not. If all a person wants to do is gendai budo, then have at it. To paraphrase Jack Bieler's post ... if they add value and depth to their lives ... that's the real point, isn't it? By the same token, gendai practitioners should not look with disdain on koryu practitioners as adherents to old and useless ways. In deed, the assumption that the stewardship of old ways is foolish or useless is, in and of itself, a youthful form of snobbery.

Maybe this "generation gap" is a bad analogy. At the very least, it is a rough one. However, I tend to think it fits. Furthermore I tend to see myself more as the child of the grandparent and the parent of the teen (again a rough analogy) ... caught between two generations which really have much more in common than either would like to admit. Perhaps, that is the position most of us find ourselves in?

Each of us certainly has a right to practice as, when and where we chose, without worry about the recriminations of others, no matter how well intentioned. Along the way, we can choose to learn and grow from one another (koryu and gendai). And in doing so, I believe both "generations" will be more healthy, sound and robust for the effort.

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 06-25-2000 at 09:40 PM]

[George Ledyard]

Mr. Seay,
I never meant to infer that everybody is concerned about this issue. But the fact that these discussions about whether you can or can't do classical martoial arts wothout living in Japan etc. are unending. That indicates that there are a number of people who are worried about the issue.

I am not a classical martial artist. I am not on one side or the other in this. I agree with the qualified exponents of the classical styles that you need to do certain things in order to really absorb the training in the way it was meant to be. At the same time I don't feel the need to negate my own practice because I didn't do classical martial arts in Japan. Koryu folks who want to feel superior can if they want. Doesn't effect my practice.

When I said find your own way, it sounds to me like that is what you are attempting to do. Good luck in your training.

[Undmark, Ulf]

Originally posted by Doug Daulton

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton

PS - I tried to read Mr. Undmark's post, because the header appeared interesting. However, the message I receive is essentially blank. Are we to chime in there and say "I do this koryu or that koryu" and "I've been doing so for XX years?" Please clarify.

[/B]

I am sorry I didn't read this post earlier and if any of those who have read it still wonders I believe I should explain... since I edited that post.

My thread "Claiming Koryu" (or similar) was not directly connected to this thread, but it certainly inspired...

The idea of that thread was just to collect some information on those ryuha wich are most commonly refered to in discussions on "true" Koryu. That is, since there are different takes on what is "true" Koryu (origin, period of time, content etc), it would certainly be interesting to know how many can actually (more or less) separate facts from legend...and by, atleast, dating some of the densho of those ryuha mentioned, try to establish a date of foundation. That is, how far back (by examining densho, manuscripts, diaries and registers) can we really date a ryuha like, for instance, Maniwa Nen ryu?
They claim to have a lineage dating back to Soma Shiro Yoshimoto (Jion), but is this a fact? I certainly do not believe that their densho are older than those of Shinto ryu. What is the common knowledge of the most often mentioned Koryu?

By finding the answer to this question, I was also hoping to find some new information about how much is left of the densho from sengoku jidai, and from what ryuha.

Now, this is not common knowledge...so I really didn't expect many answers, and deleted/edited that post after a while.

Sorry for the topic breaker...

Regards,
Ulf Undmark

[Dennis Hooker]

The following is my personal observation and by no means reflects on those persons spoken of in this tread. I do not know most of them personally except for Chuck Clark Sensei whom I hold in the highest regard.

This topic has become quite convoluted, that not withstanding I am going to stir the pot a little more. Many of my contemporaries, peers and elders seemed for a long time to be looking for a since a culture and history to connect with. They were looking for something to part of, that had history, honor and courage associated with it. A sense of belonging if you will. Some of my friends had to travel to far-off places and be among strangers to find a gist of home and purpose. Particularly after the Veit Nam experience many of my friends found a need to belong that was denied most of us here in the United States. This was not limited to vet’s but to the civilian population as well, and to the next generation following us was given a since of displacement and longing.

To some this journey led to Japan where there was known to be a sub culture, within which a tradition a history, honor and courage was to be found. An added bonus was the hint of self-awareness and tranquility available to one if the right teachers were found and the correct amount of self sacrifice give. So they went, and some were satisfied and some were not. Those that found satisfaction now live their lives knowing who they are and confidant in what they are doing. This is no mean thing; it is indeed rare among those of our ilk. Some people find the confidence that goes along with such qualities unsettling, and many times read that confidence as arrogance.

Some of us have a sense, or knowledge,of the history of who we are and where we came from, and have not found it particularly necessary to seek further validation because we were, and are satisfied with that.

My family connection in America goes back to the mid 1500’s to Thomas Hooker who is considered by many to have played the role of John the Baptist for Thomas Jefferson in the sense that he laid the foundation for American republican democracy. Although we were poor as children we always had a since of who we were. Many of my friends could not trace their family back further than their grandparents, and because of that, they latter in their life sought out a culture with roots. Some of us had a connection, some of us found a connection, and some are still looking for a connection.

This is just an observation from a fellow that has been around for a while and is most assuredly not scientific.

Dennis Hooker
http://www.shindai.com

[Chuck Clark]

Dennis,

I agree with you. Many of the folks that I've grown up with in budo practice had no strong connections to family, etc. I know that I always felt like a stranger or alien in the area where I was growing up and the budo group was where I felt comfortable and accepted. Our values seemed similar and we developed a trust on the mat that we didn't have with others.

Come to think of it, I still feel that way.

Later,

[Doug Daulton]

Oops - duplicate post

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 06-26-2000 at 09:39 AM]

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by Undmark, Ulf
Now, this is not common knowledge...so I really didn't expect many answers, and deleted/edited that post after a while.

Sorry for the topic breaker...[/B]

Mr. Undmark,

Thanks for the clarification! I was lost because the post is now empty or so it appears.

Thanks again,

Doug Daulton

[Jack B]

Each of us chooses the martial art(s) we practice out of all the martial arts in the world. Of course, we think the arts we do are the best; if we didn't, we'd be doing something else!

There is a saying that one must seek enlightenment with the same urgency as a man whose hair is on fire. If you cannot have what you want, by all means, want what you have.

[Margaret Lo]

error-sorry

[Edited by Margaret Lo on 06-26-2000 at 11:58 AM]

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Jack B
Each of us chooses the martial art(s) we practice out of all the martial arts in the world. Of course, we think the arts we do are the best; if we didn't, we'd be doing something else!



Not so Jack. I quite love what I do, but I don't think shotokan karate is the best and only thing in the world. I only think that it is best for me as martial arts go.

I also think it is important to look at other martial arts and understand what they have to offer and not be blinkered by love of one's own system.

To stay on topic: This is why I feel that the koryu arts are so valuable. Many aspects of karate cannot be properly understood without knowing the context in which certain techniques originated, and that context included weapon arts - though I recognize that differences must be substantial between Japanese vs Okinawan weapons.

But totally aside from their usefulness to other systems, the koryu arts to my mind, have intrinsic value as art.

-M-

[Edited by Margaret Lo on 06-26-2000 at 12:05 PM]

[MarkF]

Margaret Lo said:

But totally aside from their usefulness to other systems, the koryu arts to my mind, have intrinsic value as art.


With the above quote by Margaret, I think this thread be allowed a peaceful death. Koryu indeed have this value as art, as does music. This is simple enough for no one to disagree, I think.