Reasons Why Going to Japan is Beneficial

Hello,

It was recently brought to my attention that a lot of people have the opinion that it is not necessary to go to train in Japan in order to study a koryu system. It seems that many of the same people seem to have taken a disliking to a article by Diane Skoss titled: "You want koryu? Come to Japan!" which can be found at the following URL:
http://koryu.com/library/dskoss1.html

However, I'd like to point out that despite the title of the article, it did clearly state that it is possible to study a koryu system without training in Japan if one was able to find a legitimately qualified instructor:

"So you do have a choice--come to Japan, or find one of the dozen or so truly qualified instructors teaching outside of Japan and begin training. While a trip to Japan may not be absolutely essential to train in the koryu (and I do believe it is a must for those who would teach), it is vital to learn from someone who has truly 'done time in Japan.'"

Whenever this topic is brought up, people who feel that training in Japan is not necessary for the study of a koryu system usually cite the interveiw by Takamura Yoshiyuki that appeared in the #117 issue of Aikido Journal. This was most recently posed on another thread here by Mr. Toby Threadgill. The quote was as follows:

"Another common misconception is that one must go to Japan to get “real” Japanese martial arts training! I find this a very strange idea. What does the dirt under the floor have to do with the quality of training in a martial arts dojo these days? Some individuals who spend time training in Japan reinforce this idea with fanciful magazine articles and story books on mysterious secrets to be found there. Others make interesting claims that only by immersing oneself in the culture that bore the art originally can one truly understand its essence or spirit. These individuals are welcome to their opinions, but I must disagree with them. I was born in Japan, raised in the pre-World War II culture of Japan, in a family linked for generations to many martial arts. I have since lived many years in Europe, America and back in Japan. I believe some of these Japanophiles are honest and well-meaning martial arts practitioners drawn to the romantic image they have of Japan and its martial traditions. But others I think are Nippon snobs. They believe by making the admittedly great sacrifice of moving to Japan and surviving the difficulties associated with training there, that they are superior students who have received superior training compared to their friends who stay and train in budo or bujutsu outside Japan. If their training is superior, it is the sensei who is superior, not the dirt under the dojo floor. Many superior sensei exist outside Japan today and many inferior sensei exist inside Japan as well.

Training in Japan does not make up for a bad teacher. Train with a superior teacher abroad. Why go to Japan to train with an inferior teacher? Also, to imagine that the post-World War II modern Japan of today bears any significant cultural resemblence to that of feudal era Japan requires one to ignore some most obvious facts. This is especially true if you are training in a traditional bujutsu or koryu. Using the rationale of cultural relevance just makes no sense to me. I have seen incredible changes in the culture of Japan in my lifetime. Feudal Japan of old died long ago. The culture of the classical martial traditions was tied so directly to the feudal era that the end of this era also brought the end of the culture that bore the classical arts. That is just a fact of history. " - Yukiyoshi Takamura

Now Mr. Takamura has raised some valid points. I agree with many of them. However, it still seems to me that training in Japan would certainly be most beneficial to anyone training in a Japanese martial art and especially important for anyone studying a classical tradition for the following reasons:

1) As Diane previously pointed out in her article, one of the most important factors in classical systems is direct transmission. The soke of almost all the Japanese koryu schools reside in Japan and one can gain the best technique only by constant and prolonged interaction with the soke of the system (who usually acts as the ultimate authority on the correctness of technique). Even people who hold the license of menkyo kaiden (or the equivilent) overseas will often encourage their students to come to Japan and receive some teaching directly from the soke for this very reason and travel to Japan themselves.

2) The makimono of Japanese koryu schools are written in Japanese and their techniques passed down in Japanese. The fact is that important stuff gets lost in translation. While there is certainly a big jump between modern Japanese and classical Japanese it is still one step smaller than the jump between classical Japanese and modern English. There are often so many subtle meanings that are important in the Japanese that just cannot be translated well into other languages. We also have to remember that a good protion of the Japanese koryu schools are more than likely taught in their local dialects. These dialects are often very different than standard Japanese. Even when I was doing my bachelor's degree at the University of Michigan it was impossible for me to study Japanese culture as a major without taking at least three years of Japanese language classes. They also strongly encouraged (and still do) all Japanese studies majors to spend at least one year in Japan for the very same reasons as many people feel it is beneficial to study koryu systems in Japan.

3) When talking about classical traditions we have to also consider the the local customs since many of the koryu were taught in rural areas. There are all the cultural references to patron deities, local shrine and temple affiliations, Mikkyo or Shingon incantations, references to local places of importance to the school, feudal domain connections, castles and ancient battlefields, all the other stuff that make the koryu schools REALLY interesting. Even if you had your own soke living right next to you in the US one would still be severely limited in most of these areas.

4) There is better access to historical information about the classical traditions in Japan. While modern Japan is certainly much different than it was in the feudal times it is still a much closer than trying to transplant a classical Japanese tradition to a totally alien modern culture like the US. Japanese historians from the US often spend a great deal of time in "modern Japan" while researching Japan's history. If I'm not mistaken, aren't professional historians like Dr. Karl Friday and Ron Roy (both of whom are martial artists and former guests in e-budo's Spotlight as well) currently in Japan doing just that? There is just much better access to historical information (in the form of documentation in libraries, museums, private collections, used bookstores, antique shops, etc.) that comes with being in Japan. We shouldn't forget human resources either. Now I admit that I am biased because I live in Japan. However, because of my location and the right introduction I regularly get together with Watanabe Ichiro sensei - professor emeritus of budo studies at Tsukuba University and author of more books on the subject than I can count, Irie Kohei sensei - currently in charge of budo studies at Tsukuba University, Muto Masao sensei - soke of Yagyu Shingan-ryu Taijutsu and the Otsubo line of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, Okumura Shigenobu - 9th dan from the Aikikai, Shibata Masao - a practicioner of Kendo and Kurama-ryu which his father is the soke of, for coffee and budo talk each week. Now I'm not trying to brag or sound snobbish but the fact is I really don't know of any place else in the world where I could be regularly be exposed to people like that during a single morning each week.

5) There are very few instructors who are licenced to teach koryu schools in the West to my knowledge. Even some of those wh

[Reece McQuinn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Popie:



I really think the article by Yukiyoshi Takamura suggests debates about koryu and training in Japan is really not of importance, training is and tradition that is universal to all Japanese martial arts. Sure Ms. Skoss went to Japan and learn in a Koryu. I am sure she will tell you the most valuable lessons are cultural.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is important to note, that Mr. Takamura spent a great deal of his life living in a foreign country. Naturally his opinions are influenced by this. It's not a bad thing. But he is in the minority of people who feel this way.Remember also, that he is Japanese, and thus has a cultural understanding that no Non-native Koryu Instructor who has never been to Japan will be able to offer. Besides, I can't even think of an authentic and licensed to teach Koryu Instructor stateside who hasn't lived in Japan at one time or another.

Koryu can not be seperated from the culture that created it and still be intact.Mr. Takamura can say what he wants; he can never stop being cultural Japanese!

I'll go out on a limb here: Coming to live in Japan is not for every one! In fact a lot of people can not surrvive in a foreign culture well. Imagine, you get all excited and come to Japan. You get off the plane and suddenly you are in a very alien world. You are (most likely) unable to even ask how to get to the toliet. You can't order food from the menue. You try and find a place to live to discover that few people will rent to you because you are a foreigner. Then if you don't aren't full of IT skills, maybe you'll get a job teaching English, and then you'll never save enough to go to a movie which is about 18-20 bucks US. Maybe you have IT skills, and you work 12 hours a day not counting the 1-2 hour commute each way. Got energy to practice when you get home? Then you can't find anyone to introduce to a Koryu teacher. Maybe you find one, and you get to train all of what, 1 day a week with the class...

It's not for everyone! You have to make sacrifices.

But no matter what people think, Koryu is based on people who belong to a group (it is a Japanese thing you know) like Ron said, if you don't have the connection to the soke, you will be so far removed from the group. Yes not everyone trains every time with the soke, but at least they have met him or her, and probably sat down and talk with that person and maybe shared a beer or do any number of the little things that make you part of the group.

Coming to Japan isn't for everyone. Buck up! Have some personal courage here. If you can't come that's fine.Maybe there are some things you can not sacrifice to come here. But that isn't an excuse to create rationalizations to justify how one doesn't have to have a Japan experince do be doing Koryu.

If people would truely be honest about it, there really are but a handful of authentic koryu people in the states, licensed and given permission to teach. For every "real" one in America there are 10 false ones!

I hope the next fad will come along soon so allthose people can jump on the new fad and leave Koryu alone, or it's going to be come just like Aikido and Karate has become in the states.

[Rennis]

I basically agree all with Ron's points above, however there is one important thing I would add, which actually has nothing to do with Japan per se, but more to do with the individual moving to Japan.

Moving to Japan and being thrown in an environment were at first you most likely don't understand most of what is being said and done improves your observation skills immensely. You simply have to pay attention to everything that is going on and can't rely on the standard verbal "sensei says" instruction often seen in the West, and in the process probably learn alot more than you would elsewise. I know moving to Japan, for me at least, was the ultimate way to focus my attention on training and living. All the petty things I was stressing out about back in the US were simply gone and it makes it much easier to get down on focus on the task at hand. Basically you have the chance to go completely into learning mode, rather than everyday life mode. You have little to no idea what is going on so you just take everything in, something most people probably haven't done since they were a child. Now granted you do eventually establish an everyday life here as well, but given how different the environment is, lack of language skills, etc., you still can't drop being in a constant state of observation (at least not for a good number of years, alot longer than I have been here). From me it radicially altered how I look at and process everything and could most likely be once of the most valuable things I will take away from here.

For what its worth,
Rennis Buchner

[Diane Skoss]

Hi Rennis,

An excellent point, and my experience exactly. I felt like I was walking around with my head packed in cotton for the first six months. Nothing that was said around me penetrated. But I could still see. Now, given that I am a very very verbal and aural learner, being forced to switch to the visual mode was one of the greatest things that could ever happen to me. And although my language skills were never even remotely as good as Meik's, there were times when I understood what was going on even a little better than he did because I had learned to read so many of the other non-verbal contextual communication cues.

An enormous fringe benefit, whereever one lives! http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif



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Diane Skoss
Koryu.com (http://Koryu.com)

[Aaron L. Seay]

Reece McQuinn wrote:

"Coming to Japan isn't for everyone. Buck up! Have some personal courage here. If you can't come that's fine.Maybe there are some things you can not sacrifice to come here. But that isn't an excuse to create rationalizations to justify how one doesn't have to have a Japan experince do be doing Koryu."

If anyone was wondering why some of the Koryu guys might be considered snobs, now we have our answer.

Just for the record, I have spent a number of years during my wayward youth living overseas, including 6 months in Okinawa (I only briefly visited mainland Japan, but that was before my MA days anyway, so...). One thing I discovered was that I happen to LIKE America. Despite its faults, despite the idiots, I like it here. I simply don't want to live in Japan, or anywhere else for that matter.

I realize that coming to Japan isn't for everyone, but of course, nothing is. For you to imply that you're more "grown up" than the rest of us because we're not "willing to make sacrifices" is just ridiculous.

I can completely understand and agree with the points Mr. Beaubien laid out --- I think if you are a serious student of a japanese art, there would definately be enormous benefits and important perspectives to be had from visiting and/or residing there. I can trace my own family lineage back to Ireland, and I've always felt like one day I need to go there and experience the land and the people. And if you're so immersed in a Japanese art, that you've identified yourself with the culture, then by all means go over there. Live in the land, learn the language, eat sushi. Maybe you're dedicated or maybe you're obsessed, I don't know. But from everything I've ever heard about Japan (and maybe I'm wrong), you're always going to be Gaijin, and so how can you be sure you're getting the full effect of the culture you're trying to immerse yourself in? Maybe if you want to learn Koryu, you just have to BE japanese, and in that case they're looking at you the same way that you're looking at us...trying real hard, but basically wasting your time.

Now, as I've said before, I'm not putting down Koryu, or those who are devoted to it. But I've also said that just because you've convinced yourself that you're the elite doesn't neccesarily make it so. If you feel the need to emigrate, that's fine. But if I had the choice between studying with a world-class talent like Threadgill Sensei in Dallas or going to Japan to be treated like a second-class citizen, I'd have to go with Mr. Threadgill. I think my point is, we all do what we think is best for ourselves and our lives and our passions, but that doesn't give us the right to pass judgement on others for not feeling the way you do about something.

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Aaron L. Seay

[Earl Hartman]

Mr. Seay says:

"But from everything I've ever heard about Japan (and maybe I'm wrong), you're always going to be Gaijin, and so how can you be sure you're getting the full effect of the culture you're trying to immerse yourself in? Maybe if you want to learn Koryu, you just have to BE japanese, and in that case they're looking at you the same way that you're looking at us...trying real hard, but basically wasting your time."

Now we're getting down to the nitty-gritty. Mr. Seay brings up a number of interesting points. Is training in Japan worth all of the crap you get because you're a foreigner? And if the teacher is "inferior", what's the point? And if you are a foreigner, will you ever really "understand"?

Just for the record, this has nothing to do with koryu, and may even be worse in the gendai arts. With the cops I practiced kendo with, every day was Gaijin Pinata Day. They were very concerned with proving to me (and to themselves) who the real men were.

Pathetic? Yes. Good, tough training? You bet. Modern police kendo is a kind of gekken. The only thing that is important is how tough you are. After getting over my self-pity about being picked on, supposedly because I was a round-eye, I looked around and realized that they treated each other exactly the same way and were actually being easy on me. I was out of my league and out of my element, but it was the best training I ever had in what it means to stop sniveling and take responsibility for yourself and your own practice. What little intestinal fortitude I have today is entirely a result of getting treated like shit every day by those guys. (Maybe I could have learned the same thing in boot camp.) I was damned if I was going to give them the satisfaction of quitting, which is what they expected me to do, so I stuck with it, hating every minute of it. When it came time for me to go home, my teacher said "You know, Hartman, you never got any good, but you didn't quit either, and I respect that." I'm not sure if anything has ever meant so much to me. I never, ever experienced that kind of cameraderie and mutual respect in all the time I spent doing kendo here in the US.

It is true that you get a lot of crap from people in Japan becasue you are a foreigner. So what? Who cares if some schmuck on the street looks at you funny? Just damn his eyes and get on with things. I know a lot of budo people in Japan, koryu and gendai. There is always some idiot who thinks that the round eye can't hack it, that it is all beyond us. Screw them. There are just as many people who don't feel that way. If you train diligently, the real teachers recognize it and take you seriously. Just ignore the ones that don't.

I do not know Mr. Threadgill. From what I can tell from his comments on e-budo and the reamrks of people I know who know him, he seems like a very serious and accomplished individual. You are lucky to have such a teacher. However, it is a mistake to assume, as it seems to me you might be doing (I may be wrong) that the teachers in Japan are inferior and that they won't really teach you because you are a foreigner. I can state categorically and with no reservations whatsoever that this is simply not true. I have, almost without exception, been treated very well by the teachers whom I have met, who have been almost embarrassingly concerned with making sure that I am taken care of. Whether you get taught well or not depends more on your attitude as a student than on anything else. If you are serious, they will train you. However, if they don't teach you, you need to look into your heart and make sure that it's not your own fault and not just assume it's because you're a foreigner.

Earl

[Reece McQuinn]

Mr. Seay, you think I'm being a koryu snob? Gee I didn't mean to step on your toes.

The fact remains that COMPARED to Japan, there are not nearly the same oportunties to train in Koryu in the United States or anywhere outside of Japan for that matter.

It remains a fact that Koryu comes from Japanese culture. I feel that if seperated, then Koryu becomes something different.Dare I say it becomes less pure. YES! I think that.Less efective as a martial system, NO, but less pure (in a cultural sense) nonetheless!

No one I know over here trains in thier Koryu art more than one or two days a week at the most. If I am a snob for pointing out that coming over here requires some very serious sacrafices, and that life is not going to be all roses, then OK. gosh I'm a snob.Reality equals snobery to you I guess.

I don't think anyone said they didn't like America. I like it. It's my home, and it's my dominate culture. But loving America isn't going to make the Koryu arts there any better and it sure ain't going to make the frauds into the real thing.

I don't think you can see the difference between 'snobery' and "Reality".

I was a JET about 6 years ago. During the first 2 weeks, 1.800 of us had orientation in Tokyo before leaving for our assignments. During those first 2 weeks, 240 people just up and left and went home breaking thier contracts. During that first year several people commited suicide because they couldn't live in this culture and they felt they couldn't go home failing either.

Not everyone can live in Japan or another foreign culture.Read the above posts by those who have lived here a while.

Sounds like you were in the military or perhaps here with you parents. That's a lot of support either way. You were lucky I think.And I don't believe any of us have emigrated to Japan and given up our citizenship. Why are you interested in Budo Mr. Seay? Sounds like you think very little of our lives here in Japan of Japanese culture and the people who live here even though you haven't lived here and really, have a baseless opinion, one based on very little personal experience!

I never said you or anyone else was any less grown up because you can't make sacrifices. (Where did you get that idea?) But the truth is, if you want Koryu, with very,very few exceptions, you have to come to Japan.

I don't know if you do Koryu (I never said I did!) I did say though, if you can't come to Japan that's ok. But just because you can't come doesn't mean that what you are doing is Koryu. It might well be, and if so you are very lucky, but there are many out there who are being fooled into believing that they are practicing an authentic Koryu tradition when in fact they are not or are learning it from a teacher who doesn't have persmission to teach.

Mr. Thredgill's students are lucky. Lucky that he did come to Japan and learned his art and brought it back for you and others. What would you do if he hadn't of come to Japan?

I admit my first post was acidic, but I meant it that way. There just isn't enough real Koryu in the states yet, to make Mr. Beaubien's remarks or Mrs. Skoss' essay anything but an expression of the way it is. Reality.

If you feel I have passed judgement on you I am sorry that you took it that way. Please forgive me for my sushi tainted breath and my second-class citizen's life. I don't think I am any better than you or anyone else. I am not Koryu! I am just a an ordinary person, who I am and who you are, and all the "judging" we do to each other isn't going to change the reality of the state of Koryu in America today!

[Ron Beaubien]

Originally posted by Popie:

"Hey everyone, your all off topic on the example of snob thread, move on over here where ya belong. The water is nice."

Actually, I started this seperate thread because I felt that the discussion about whether training in Japan is beneficial or not was an issue totally different from the claim that all koryu practicioners are snobs.

Originally posted by Popie:

"Isn't Sumo a Koryu?"

I don't think so. I've never heard any sumo practicioners refer to themselves as koryu practicioners. Nor have I ever seen sumo demonstrated at any koryu demonstration in Japan nor are there any sumo beya that belong to the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai or Nihon Kobudo Kyokai to my knowledge. Although sumo does have a long historical tradition, I believe that it is now practiced primarily as a professional sport and secondly as a nonprofit university club activity.

Originally posted by Popie:

"If so, then look at the Americans who became Sumo wrestlers. Look at their perspectives and attitudes. Then compare them to other Americans who studied Koryu."

I don't think this belongs on this thread but I don't see how you can draw any conclusions whatsoever based on such a limited sample. I mean really, just how many Americans who became sumo wrestlers and Americans who have studied a legitimate koryu tradition have you met? Can you give us a list of names? (I might even agree with a few of the names if you listed them... http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif) But would the list really be long enough to cast a stereotype that puts all koryu practicioners in the "snob" category and all sumo wrestlers in the "non snob" category? See Davy Lowry's reply to Mr. Svinth on June 5th on the "Examples of Koryu Snobs?" thread. I thought that message basically ended that debate long ago.

Regards,

Ron

[Tonya Easton]

At the risk of a thorough and probably brutal attack.... I've just got to put my 2 cents worth in.


Re: Japanese treat foreigners bad......

My sensei travels to Japan at least yearly, and often has native friends from there come to stay with him while they give demonstrations and teach.
Could it be that because the US has so many......"frauds" claiming unequalled MA talent, that they are skeptical of us and therefore act accordingly due to their past experiances of encounters with these types of people? If you were japanese and you were well known for your skills and talent.... would you have " open arms " to anyone popping over to train with you? Or might you be skeptical of what there motivation is. (Maybe a Internet post or advertising thing that uses their name and is misleading).
Or.... playing devils advocate maybe they really do think they are better than everyone else. From what I have read there are MANY American citizens who feel they are better than everyone else and from some of the posts I've read they are much more vocal about it than the Japanses are.
My experiance has been, once you have either earned respect or admitted your limitations, they are reaally very gracious people.


I personally have no desire to go to Japan at this time. But I also do not feel at this point in my training it is necessary. Maybe I never will. I figure I'll have to practice another 100 years to be even half as good as my Sensei, so why not just focus on what he can teach me. That is only my personal opininon and I feel that Everyones goals regarding their martial arts training are individualized.
I guess what I'm getting to is.... I may not feel that it is beneficial to me to go to Japan to train, this must be indicative that my current training is sufficient to meet my needs. Whether those needs are; learing to protect myself, avoid and attack, or feel confident I'll win every bar fight I get in to! (hahaha)_
That doesn't mean that someone elses goals may require them to go to Japan to meet them, re; learning the cultural necessity behind the fighting technichs such as how the naginata came to be used, etc...

At the risk of invoking that " final deadly blow" (haha)

Snobbery can be defined in many ways. Overconfidence, inflated Ego, Pure Stubborness in there own opinions......

BUT.... Rude is always Rude, and is understood in everyones language. Disagreeing on a topic is different than a personal attack, especially if you have not observed that persons abilities first hand.

Someone that posts here, ( i forgot who), has a line in his signature that sums it up. It goes something like....." the technich will prove or disprove in the end.." I apologize for the mis quote in advance.




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Tonya D. Easton

[Aaron L. Seay]

Tonya:

Don't sweat the brutal attacks, it's quite stimulating! http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif It's ok, I'm Ju Shin now.

Seriously, I have to say I agree with everything in your post. I was asked why I study budo, and there's a lot of reasons...but if the question is why I study budo here (as opposed to there), then I feel as you do; I already have more than I could possibly learn right here.

Granted, I don't study Koryu, so maybe I shouldn't be trolling on this thread in the first place. It's an old Jujutsu style, mine is, but I think Diane would characterize it as a house that's been modified a bit too much to be considered a Koryu. And admittedly, I've never lived in japan and have no first hand knowledge of that culture.

But, Reece McQuinn seems to have been saying that those who don't go to japan to study simply haven't decided to make the personal sacrifices necessary to do so. My reply to that was probably a little sarcastic, but I couldn't disagree with him more. Everyone in their lives makes the sacrifices for the things they want and the things they feel are necessary. Whatever it is that you have, there's something else that you've had to give up. It would be nice to have it all, but you can't. That's reality. Snobbery only comes in when you compare others' choices to your own and conclude that they just need to "buck up".

BTW: You're correct about me being overseas with the military...I was a combat corpsman with the 1st Battalion 2nd Marines. I don't know what a JET is, but I'm sure neither program was a walk in the park. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

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Aaron L. Seay

[This message has been edited by Aaron L. Seay (edited 06-16-2000).]

[Margaret Lo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron L. Seay:

But, Reece McQuinn seems to have been saying that those who don't go to japan to study simply haven't decided to make the personal sacrifices necessary to do so. My reply to that was probably a little sarcastic, but I couldn't disagree with him more. Everyone in their lives makes the sacrifices for the things they want and the things they feel are necessary. .... Snobbery only comes in when you compare others' choices to your own and conclude that they just need to "buck up".

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aaron,
I think here is the source of confusion. The way I read Reece's statement is that he means to apply it only to koryu arts which are not easily available in the US at all.

So his statement to "buck up" suggested to me that the choice for a student is not between equally valid training in the US and Japan and then to go to Japan for the snob value, but rather that the choice is between insufficient training in the US vs. good training in Japan.

If my interpretation is correct then Reece's suggestion does not smack of snobbery, just his view of where to go to get the best training.

-M-

[Richard Elias]

Personally, though I have never been to Japan, I think the cultural exposure is probably the most significant aspect of training there. I think you can find comparable martial training here in the U.S.

If your willing, determined, and patient enough.

Now I'm not trying to diminish the idea or the benefits of going and training in Japan, I would like to go one day myself, but, for some of us it is not a financially viable option. I had to find what I could here.

And though I have not trained in Japan, I have had the opportunity to study with those who have. I even spent a year and a half as uchi deshi. Though it was not Koryu (Iwama Aikido) The training was, at times, very harsh. And, like Mr. Buchner and Mrs. Skoss, I too had to learn through observation. As uchi deshi we were not allowed to ask questions or talk during training. We were given only visual correction. If you didn’t understand what they wanted you to do, they would just do it again, you had to figure it out. In addition to that, we were expected to constantly observe Sensei, (on and off the mat)to anticipate the Sensei's needs and see to them without being asked. Things in general, I was told by visitors from Japan, were the same as in Japan if not harder.

I am lucky enough to now train in a Koryu in the U.S. (though some might question this). And do have a "Soke" living down the street from me. Through what I've read of the experiences of those who have trained in Japan, the environment and the manner of the training is very much the same. And though we can ask questions, and he gives lectures on principles, techniques, history and customs, you still have to be very observant, or you'll miss what's really happening.

And in regards to sacrifices, I waited four years to be accepted as a student, and that was after a formal introduction by one of his students, with the support of several others, and several years of developing a relationship and the trust of the Sensei. (He usually requires a standard formal resume', with references, and letter of introduction from someone he knows, and even does background checks. With all that, if you are not refused from the begining, you are still only “put on the waiting list” and not guaranteed admission, regardless of who supports you. Then there’s the never-ending probationary period where he decides whether or not you get to stay. We have only about eight people in our dojo, only about half of which train in every of the five classes we have each week.)
I then had to leave my family and friends, pack up my whole life and move to Los Angeles. Which, believe me, is like another planet.
I still don't understand these people.


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Richard Elias
Shidare Yanagi Ryu

[Aaron L. Seay]

Margaret...you may have a point

Speaking of sacrifices: I've recently moved to the Atlanta area, and I'm semi-desperately seeking a good school. Anyone have any inside info??? This IS a different world...no 7-11's, no Jack in the Box, no Tex-Mex...Arrgghh!

http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

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Aaron L. Seay

[This message has been edited by Aaron L. Seay (edited 06-16-2000).]

[Nathan Scott]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I then had to leave my family and friends, pack up my whole life and move to Los Angeles. Which, believe me, is like another planet.

I still don't understand these people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hee hee hee...

LA takes a little getting used to.

We aren't like the other kids!

http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif


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Nathan Scott
Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo (http://www.shinkendo.com)
Tsuki Kage dojo (http://www.tsuki-kage.com)
Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum (http://www.swordforum.com/jsa)

[Tonya Easton]

Thanks Aaron I have to admit I was a little nervous about jumping into this one!

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Tonya D. Easton

[Reece McQuinn]

Ms. Lo hit the nail on the head I think.

Many "Japanese" martial arts in the united states have been so far removed from the culture that created them, that they are no longer "Japanese".

They have become something more of the culture where they are practiced (not where they were created), reflecting that culture's ethics, morals, and values. Most, if they seem Japanese, only reflect a view of Japanese culture that has been watered down by being asorbed in and expressed by American culture.

I am not saying this is absolutely a bad thing.There are many aspects of American culture that are more tolerated by amny who would find the Japanese dojo a bit too authoritarian.(But why not be honest about how much most forms have been Americanized?) A perspective student of any budo should ask themself why they want to start training. Most likely, for many, any budo will supply those answers and training in these forms will prove fulfilling and worthwhile.

Koryu (be it Budo, Ikebana, Chado or Sado- remember the word 'Koryu'doesn't just mean martial arts!)is a reflection and creation of Japanese culture.Many people in the US and elsewhere are forgetting this very important feature of all the Koryu arts. Koryu is still so 'new'to us, and so little practiced in Japan and less so anywhere else, that it simply can not be watered down to fit with just any culture- no matter how much we wish it were true. It is the individual who must be willing to change and adopt (as much as that is possable) to the Japanese culture as expressed within the framework of one particular school or another.

Because Koryu arts and Japanese culture are insepreable if they are going to remain "Japanese", it means at least for the time one spemds in the dojo swinging a sword or pondering the placement of the next flower, one must abandone one's own view of the world,both personally and culturally, and try as best one can, to see it from the perspective of the Japanese culture.

This is truly where the value of doing a Koryu art is to be found.

[This message has been edited by Reece McQuinn (edited 06-19-2000).]

[Joseph Svinth]

Ron wrote: &lt;See Davy Lowry's reply to Mr. Svinth on June 5th on the "Examples of Koryu Snobs?" thread. I thought that message basically ended that debate long ago.&gt;

In the interest of accuracy, please note that my non-response to Mr. Lowry's comments does not necessarily mean that I agreed with everything Mr. Lowry wrote. Instead, it simply means that I chose not to respond.

Why, you ask? Well, in some cases, others said what I wished to say and there was no need to repeat the statement and in others answering the questions with the detail requested would have been grossly unfair to the people involved. For even assuming the absolute worst (and I am not), I hereby affirm that not one of these koryu folks has *ever* offended my sensibilities as much as the various American jujitsu and ninpo and karate associations that trace their origins to somebody taking a quarter of Shotokan and a year of judo during college in 1971, and are today notorious for their long lists of Masters.

I also have nothing against visiting Japan, and indeed encourage it. I would, however, temper this by suggesting some preparation, to include learning the language and reading some books about the seamy as well as the uplifting aspects of Japanese culture. That study of course can be done through your local library or better yet, Nikkei community, and if along the way you discover that you don't like Japanese culture as much as you expected, then getting home is so much easier.

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Joe
http://ejmas.com

[hyaku]

Popie writes,

I maybe starting a fire here, but why would a steadfast koryu allow non-native Japanese to learn such a treasure in Japan? This is based on a school I know of in Japan which does't allow foriegners on the front step per se. Do foriegners get rejected by serious koryu and then have to go to lesser schools of koryu?
.....................................
It's not easy. But bearing in mind that your average "bleach your hair get your ears pierced Japanese has not interest whatsoever in Japanese Martial Arts either modern or old. Some Ryu are more than pleased to find anyone who shows a serious interest.

I don't know why you keep mentioning this thing about you do a modern martial art. Just exactly what do you think the difference is between what you do and older classical styles.

I ask this because by your standards I teach and practice "both"
.........
Hyakutake






[This message has been edited by hyaku (edited 06-19-2000).]

[Brently Keen]

Popie wrote: "why would a steadfast koryu allow non-native Japanese to learn such a treasure in Japan? This is based on a school I know of in Japan which does't allow foriegners on the front step per se. Do foriegners get rejected by serious koryu and then have to go to lesser schools of koryu?"

As in all of life, I think we ought to be careful about making sweeping generalizations, and instead look at each case according to it's particular context, case by case as the Japanese are fond of saying. Some particular koryu may not allow foreign students because their headmaster and /or ryuha might have historical or political prejudices against Westerners, perhaps they hold to rather extreme nationalist or right-wing views.

On the other hand some koryu schools and their headmasters may simply not allow anyone, even Japanese people to join their dojo. It's simply a small private club for members only. It may be that they are just not interested in sharing and promoting what they practice. They might not care if other people ever know what they know they simply want to practice alone, and be left alone.

Other's may be hesitant to accept foreigners just because of the difficulties in communicating both linguistically and culturally. They may feel that the cultural barriers are simply too difficult to bridge both from their position as teachers and from ours as foreign students. They may feel that it's simply to prohibitive (or inefficient) to effectively teach and transmit the subtleties of their arts cross-culturally. On the otherhand they might also just be intimidated by the challenges that teaching foreigners involves.

Some may actually not be as "hard-core" as they'd like everyone to believe, so they remain secluded in order that their weaknesses and/or so called "secrets" never become known.

Some may simply realize that foreigners are not likely to remain permanently in Japan, and therefore will not be able to make a long term (lifetime) commitment to training with the headmaster at the hombu where the only true transmission of the art occurs. Others may have had problems with foreign members training for a short time and then returning to their home countries to teach without proper authorization and thus misrepresent the art by spreading a false or incomplete understanding of the intricacies of the ryu.

There are many possible reasons why a koryu might not want to admit foreign students, not all schools or teachers are motivated primarily by growing and expanding their schools to include as many students as they can get. It doesn't necessarily mean that closed schools have more to offer and open schools have less to offer, it's more likely the individual motivations, preferences and priorities of each headmaster or licensed instructor that determines the degree of their schools open or closed nature.

Brently Keen

[Reece McQuinn]

Popie:

I have some advice for you, and I don't mean this in other other way than constructive critism:

Rather than posting all these questions, and after you confess to knowing little about classic systems, you continue to post questions that seek not to increase your knowledge but to show others how much you think you know.

Why don't you shut up for a bit and rather than spend your time writing about how you don't know about classic systems, spend that time by going somewhere and getting some hands-on experience!

It seems to me that you are posting just to hear the sound of your own voice.

[MarkF]

Deleted.

[Edited by MarkF on 06-20-2000 at 05:13 AM]

[MarkF]

It seems to me that you are posting just to hear the sound of your own voice.

?????

[Diane Skoss]

Originally posted by Popie
My question now is do you have any insight to those who have been rejected and feel about, i.e was it a blessing or drawback to be rejected for what ever reason? I am ignorant of this situation. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

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PJ Popie

Mr. Popie,

You've expressed something that highlights one of the important features of (most of the) koryu. It doesn't matter in the slightest how someone feels about being rejected by a ryu (and if it was done in Japan, it was done incredibly gently and with the notion of perserving the petitioner's face and feelings). The only thing that matters is whether that individual's membership would have added to the ryu. If the headmaster or senior teachers think not, then the individual is not necessary to the ryu, and should not be admitted. Being part of a ryu is not about what an individual can get out of the ryu, but about what the individual can contribute to the ryu. A member's identity is subsumed within the identity of the ryu. It is authoritarian (in a classically Japanese way--hence the need to understand that way). It isn't fair or just. It just is.

I believe someone (Margaret?) pointed this out earlier--it is important enough to state again. You aren't in it for yourself, you are in it for the ryu. It doesn't matter how you think or feel about something; it matters how something affects the ryu. This is an idea that is very hard to get across in the West; those that have spent time in Japan are usually better prepared to accept this harsh reality.

Hope this helps!

[Chuck Clark]

What!!!

Diane (my sempai), Are you telling us that if we want to take part in a traditional koryu practice that it means "giving" of ourselves and not getting a guarantee that we'll get something out of it in exchange for our effort?!! What a concept!

It's probably this aspect of koryu that I personally like the best. Don't know why, but that's the way it is.

Well put, Diane, by both you and Margaret Lo.

(Oh yeah...I'm going right back to work.)

Thanks,

[MarkF]

Originally posted by Diane Skoss
Originally posted by Popie
My question now is do you have any insight to those who have been rejected and feel about, i.e was it a blessing or drawback to be rejected for what ever reason? I am ignorant of this situation. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

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PJ Popie

Mr. Popie,

You've expressed something that highlights one of the important features of (most of the) koryu. It doesn't matter in the slightest how someone feels about being rejected by a ryu (and if it was done in Japan, it was done incredibly gently and with the notion of perserving the petitioner's face and feelings). The only thing that matters is whether that individual's membership would have added to the ryu. If the headmaster or senior teachers think not, then the individual is not necessary to the ryu, and should not be admitted. Being part of a ryu is not about what an individual can get out of the ryu, but about what the individual can contribute to the ryu. A member's identity is subsumed within the identity of the ryu. It is authoritarian (in a classically Japanese way--hence the need to understand that way). It isn't fair or just. It just is.

I believe someone (Margaret?) pointed this out earlier--it is important enough to state again. You aren't in it for yourself, you are in it for the ryu. It doesn't matter how you think or feel about something; it matters how something affects the ryu. This is an idea that is very hard to get across in the West; those that have spent time in Japan are usually better prepared to accept this harsh reality.

Hope this helps!


Diane,
Is not the very act of going to Japan to study koryu not at least part of what you say? Is going to the doorstep and being rejected not to be considered what it is?
I know of people who study koryu with a japanese instructor who is from Japan, and considered to be of the best of what is available here in the West, who have gone to Japan and have been turned down by the very people whose sensei has referred him to, who have been turned away even though those of the ryu in Japan know he is coming and who has sent him. Feelings be damned, but what If he sends one and expects said student to fully be taken in, but is not? Is it possible for these teachers in Japan to have been wrong? It maybe a "harsh reality," but nevertheless there are those, even in Japan who may have just turned away the very thing of which they seek. Even the Kodokan does this, and that school has long been noted as not being the best to study judo. It just smacks of snobbishness and indifference. Yes, we are speaking of private clubs in which you must "pass muster" to get in, but even so, and including the fact that there are so few who do this (less than one-percent of the people in Japan practice any form of bugei) that it just smacks of effrontery which therefore may be in the person's mind that this IS Japan. While no one should expect any favors, doesn't the hardship, including the financial one, do this koryu injustice? Well, yes, that is just the way it is and it must be accepted, but it still does not explain it. There could be a million reasons not to be accepted, but just how is it explained to this person that he/she will not be accepted? The answer is really my curiosity, as I have no intention of going to Japan just to study budo (although that may be one of the reasons) but what must one prove? Some long ago koryu sensei have had thousands of students, but only a few are given the inner "secrets" or transmission of such, so what does it serve to be such a person? Would it not be better to accept the occasional student, and then have him/her work toward a goal of receiving instruction, or "ura" of that school? Surely, it cannot be harmful to the school. Forgetting all of the above, what of the teacher who has arranged this with people he knows and trusts, yet his word of this student is eventually null and void? I get the feeling that if one does go to Japan, which everyone here is recommending, yet must be willing to be refused entry, and must accept this as this is how it is in Japan.

[Brently Keen]

Mr. Popie wrote:

>"You provided some very good and specific reasons that some >traditional schools will refuses someone. My question now is do you >have any insight to those who have been rejected and feel about, i.e >was it a blessing or drawback to be rejected for what ever reason? I am >ignorant of this situation."

Diane probably gave an even better reason. I was told once by one of my seniors that "Sensei was king", what he says in his ryuha goes. Bottom line is the koryu sensei does what he deems best, it doesn't really matter what we think, whether we understand it, whether it's really best or not, it's not for us to say.

I know several people who were refused entrance into the dojo of a well known master of another branch of the same ryu that I study. One actually went day after day with introductions and references to the dojo and requested permission to join. But he was turned away. He finally came to my teacher's dojo which happens to be much more open, and now he seems to be glad about it.

One of my seniors was a schoolmate of this other master's most senior student, and he told my senior once that he wished he could come to our school, but he couldn't because he was already obligated to his teacher of many years. It seems he felt cheated somehow.

I know another gentleman who was perhaps the last student accepted by this other master before he passed away, and it seems to have transformed him, he couldn't be more fortunate in his mind. It's luck or destiny I guess. We all have to make the best of the opportunities we get and live with the choices we make. That's the harsh reality of living anywhere in the West or in Japan.

Those are just several examples that come to my mind. I don't know if they provide any insight or answers your question though. Koryu is not for everyone, if you're not accepted, it might not be for you, maybe another koryu is, maybe not. At any rate, I agree with Diane that you have to be deemed good for the ryu rather than the other way around. Perhaps this notion contributes to the whole idea of snobbery, but like it or not that's the way it seems to be.

Brently Keen

[Edited by Brently Keen on 06-21-2000 at 03:32 AM]