Tangent to edge blocking

[TJHara]

I don't mean to reopen old wounds here; I just saw a technique in a bokken sparring match that looked a little peculiar to me, and was hoping someone might know if this belongs to an actual style or was just something made-up. I've been searching the edge blocking threads without luck, but maybe there's just a better search string I'm not thinking of.

In the bouts I saw, the two kenjutsuka crossed swords, blocking edge-on-edge. One would then attempt to lever the end of his blade around his opponent's in order to bring the edge down on his throat. The defender would dance a little to take away the attacker's leverage, the attacker would dance a little to gain it back. I'm not in a position to completely discount such a move, but on the surface it looked very Highlander/SCA/Ren Faire stage combat to me.

Could anyone shed a little light on this move for me?

[Jock Armstrong]

What ryuha did they represent? I don't know of any [free]sparring done with bokken except for some people who have been mentioned on this forum before.

[TJHara]

That's the funny thing, they didn't actually name their style beyond calling it kenjutsu. I'm just wrapping up a little something for the Toyama newsletter on the show they put on; I'll give you a holler once it's up.

[pgsmith]

Hey TJ,
That sounds like the bokken equivalent of tsuba zeriai. That is a move particular to kendo in which the shinai are locked up tsuba to tsuba while both opponents attempt to gain an advantage over the other through leverage to bring their shinai into play. It is something that would NOT happen with swords. At least not according to everything I have been taught.

[George Kohler]

blocking edge-on-edge.

One school that I know of that uses edge-on-edge, and appear to be "sparring" with their bokuto, is Tenshin Sho-den Katori Shinto-ryu.

[Erik Tracy]

In MJER paired patterns (tachi uchi no kurai), there are two kata that incorporate tsuba zerai: 'tsukikage' and 'uchikomi' - both uchitachi and shitachi struggle to control the center line while cutting down on teki at the same time. It's an eye opener for validating posture (and survival) if not done correctly.

Frightening to think about using shinken - but I can see the possibility that it did happen historically.

fwiw,
Erik

[pgsmith]

Frightening to think about using shinken - but I can see the possibility that it did happen historically.
I can see the use in a training situation. Why I said it would not happen with swords is because tsuba zeriai is the result of not being allowed to hit or grab your opponent. I assumed that he was watching the infamous Chikara dojo bokken sparring stuff. Two people could end up in tsuba zeriai with bokken for the same reason they do in kendo, you aren't allowed to throw your opponent. While we have excercises that are much the same as what you described Erik, to teach about the center line, they are acknowledged as something that wouldn't have occured in actual use. Can't say for certain though as I've never engaged in an honest to goodness sword duel. Maybe I'll have to go for a little saya ate at Tony's Tai Kai! :)

[Erik Tracy]

Can't say for certain though as I've never engaged in an honest to goodness sword duel. Maybe I'll have to go for a little saya ate at Tony's Tai Kai! :)

Nah - how about we just thumb wrestle while drinking a cold beer? :-)

Erik

[twayman]

Nah - how about we just thumb wrestle while drinking a cold beer? :-)

Erik
Someone say Beer???? I'm out'a here :)

[Ken-Hawaii]

What? No sake?

[Erik Tracy]

What? No sake?

That comes later, after one too many beers! :-)

Erik

[pgsmith]

Nah - how about we just thumb wrestle while drinking a cold beer?
Aack! ... not you! I was thinking one of the new guys that just started. Wouldn't want to get hurt you know. :) Or maybe we can talk Tony's guys into trying it while we drink beer and watch. They're all about half crazy!

[Ken-Hawaii]

Hey, I spilled sake on my hand, stuck it in the water to rinse it off, & got bitten on the thumb by a fish. Made great sushimi! But just proves not to boat when you're drinking - you may spill something!

[T. ALVAREZ]

I think he is talkign about the Sengoku classic deal as well!
Anyway, there are several kata in Kashima Shinto ryu that bring the opponents into a running and clashing tsuba zeriai, only to have shidachi drop down within teki's center and either drive the kissaki up into teki's chin and throat under the menpo or by driving the kashira under the menpo and breaking teki's jaw.
Paul, I'll show you when you are out here for the taikai. My guys would love to do a little tameshiai with you :)
By the way, there's always cold beer out here!
I am busting out a special bottle of Suimo Ken Saki for the taikai as well. If you are here, you might get some.

well, i'm finally on a plane home from Asia and gotta go.
See ya

[Dave Neeley]

Aack! ... not you! I was thinking one of the new guys that just started. Wouldn't want to get hurt you know. :) Or maybe we can talk Tony's guys into trying it while we drink beer and watch. They're all about half crazy!


Half crazy????

We're whole crazy, thank you very much!

Bring your bogu, we'll play.

[Alex Dale]

Hi all,


I'm interested in perhaps seeing this video footage the original poster inquired about. If anyone knows where I can find it, if you would please either post it here or PM me, I'd be very grateful.


Regards,

[pgsmith]

Bring your bogu, we'll play.
[cheesy mexican accent] Bogu? We don't need no stinking bogu![/cheesy mexican accent]

:D

[Aristobulus]

There is no such thing as an Edge on edge parry in any real swordsmanship (except some renaisance rapier fencing But a true rapier had no sharp edge to destroy) You can argue with a SCA , fantasy role player, stage combat, guys all day. There is no proof of edge on edge and plenty of evidence of swordmasters speaking against it.

[Chris Thompson]

>There is no such thing as an Edge on edge parry in any real swordsmanship>

I assume you've been reading the ARMA website? Sorry, but that is simply not true. It would be off-topic to get into a long debate with you about it, as my information doesn't refer to Japanese sword arts, but feel free to PM me. The only thing I will say is that the edge parry on the fort of the blade is standard practice in several Western sword arts, and that I've been told on good authority that the same is true of a number of other sword arts from around the world.

[Chidokan]

I have always been taught that if you are desperate to block and have to use the edge rather than have a sword hit your leg - you can always get another sword... a leg appears to be a little more difficult...

[Ken-Hawaii]

Umm, I hate to disagree, Ray, but in European saber fencing (which is definitely an edged weapon), if we don't use an edge to parry, we're often in deep kimchee. You can counter-strike using the edge of your saber against their flat, but it's a darn sight faster to parry edge-to-edge so you can riposte directly. I'm not saying that this is smarter, as it's really best to preserve the saber's edge, but it won me several hundred matches over the past 40 years.

And, as a Fencing Master, I teach both parry methodologies to my master's students.

[Aristobulus]

But no sharp edge on sharp edge parries in medieval or renaisance sword arts. 18th and 19th century sword arts are a horse of a different color.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Hey, Ray, I'm not THAT old!! {...Gotta' start dying that beard & chest hair...!}

[Aristobulus]

There is no such thing as an Edge on edge parry in any real swordsmanship (except some renaisance rapier fencing But a true rapier had no sharp edge to destroy) You can argue with a SCA , fantasy role player, stage combat, guys all day. There is no proof of edge on edge and plenty of evidence of swordmasters speaking against it.


I meant no offense when I referred to real swordsmanship in my first post. I was thinking of medieval swordsmanship. I realize now that that could be taken offensibly. 19th century saber fencing is definitely real swordsmanship. I apoligize.