call it what it is and move on

[Aaron T]

I am not trying to start a huge thing, nor am I looking for answers other than maybe some self-reflection. Yet, something has become apparent over the last few years of e-budo, which was not the case so much when the board first started. It is a trend that I avoid and am unhappy to see developing.

I understand folks being dubious of so many of the claims put forth by many combative/combative sport practioners out there. But in the end who cares. I know we all enjoy whatever it is that we practice, and those that have historical accurate lineages etc know it and don’t feel the need to prove it. When it comes to frauds at times the “kicking them when they are down” approach is being applied. I can understand pointing out questionable areas and asking pointed questions. Yet, when it is apparent there is no answer to the question at hand, why the group kicking approach. Sometimes I fear some of our well-intentioned members out there take on the role of budo police. In truth, nobody really cares and whom does it really hurt in the end other than the people being duped? We all practice whatever we do because we enjoy it.

I understand that fraud in budo is rampant, and anyone who knows me personally will tell you I am a no BS kind of guy. But my answer to those that are full of crap is to invite them to prove it on the mat. In this arena there is no mat, but once they can’t back up their garbage I count that as the answer and move on. The beauty of these e-boards is that it allows for the exchange of information. The ugly side is that is allows everyone, frauds and well-intended folks alike a certain degree of cover. It never forces us to put our money and our mouths together.

I am not looking for any responses, just perhaps some self-control when it is apparent that the item in question is bull-poop. No reason to flog the horse, when he died weeks ago. I suggest we come up with a code word. This code word will act as the summation of all comments when whatever is peddled is BS. Then the threads can end without the constant re-stating of factoids and opinions. I am not creative enough to have a good code word, but something like HOOKIE would work.

I am a longtime member of this board and remember when it was not as popular; folks would get on and discuss issues and approaches, history etc. Yes there were the fraud discussions too, but they never seemed to go on so long. I find it tiresome when I log on to new posts and the majority of them are petty arguments. There are members here who have some really interesting things to say I would like to hear that.

In the end I know that those trying to root out budo frauds are trying to do right. But I would urge some keeping things in perspective, relax, have fun, practice more, talk less, and remember that there are liars in every arena of life, at least budo isn’t life and death where a lie and bs-ers might be the end of someone. Also proving someone else is crap dosen't make us more 'real.'

Regards,
Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
Sea-Town Sombo
ww.seattle-jujutsu.org

[cxt]

Aaron

I understand were your coming from and to an extent I in part agree.

However (you knew there was going to be a "however" right? :) )

There are specifc threads devoted to these issues, its not like the enitre site is devoted to such things.

Plus, in great part, its peoples own time, how they wish to spend it is kinda up to them.
If they wish to spend it exposing fakes, frauds, and posers then its kinda THEIR choice neh?
I myself, generally only log on for a much needed "mental health break" at work.
Seldom if ever log on over the weekend or in the evening--too busy training etc.

Either way its my time and I'll spend it as I choose.

As far as never being "forced" to put our money where our mouths are---the problems of time and distance pretty much renders that moot.
Several folks I would love to get on the mats with---but not enough to take off from my job, buy a plane ticket, fly clear across the country,
In order to give a personal "beat down" to someone?
All things considered---tearing them a new one on-line is far better for EVERYONE involved, including the frauds.

As far as "kicking someone when they are down"

My personal feeling is that its easily possible for 2 decent people to have different opinions.
But someone whom lies, commits fraud (ethical or legal) and is dishonest--pretty much deserves any and all beat-downs that they get.
That so many people wish to get in on the "kicking" says more about the feeling such bottom feeders invoke than it does about whom does what TO them.

I shed no tears for these folks--if you can't handle the heat--don't go around
ripping people off--ethicially, emotionally, intellectually or financially.


Chris Thomas

[Aaron T]

Chris,

I agree it depends on how you want to spend your time.

I agree in theory with you, regarding frauds.


I would rather spend my time on the mat or disscussing something important to my own growth. In the grand sceme of things, budo, doesn't mean much. There are real issues worth fretting over, budo frauds is not one of them for me. You are right there is a place on this board for these threads, so a venue has been created. I just find some, not all, of the threads offensive, in that there is no ultimate ramifications. Say what you want with no option for a fat lip and because so-in-so's ryu is legitimate it is excussed. bad behaviour is bad behaviour, as you said there are ways to maintain integrity and make a point. As I am sure you would agree Chris, not all posts on these type of topics maintain such traits.

If it is a big enough deal, a plane flight isn't a big thing either.
I will also add, not to you directly Chris, but in general, that it is a slippery slope when we use the ill of someone else to justify our own.

But hey, I am a simple guy.

Aaron Fields

[cxt]

Arron

"its a slippery slope when we use the ill of someone else to jusitfy our own."

Very well put, and I'd have to agree.

If nothing else the "ramifications" are that at the very least anyone whom cares to look will find out the people and questions in discussion.

Will it stop frauds?

Maybe--some it certainly has.

Some folks have only gotten out of bad situations because of what they find out/learned here.

But your quite correct in that how people go about doing it is at least as important as the information they provide, and the questions they ask.

Most of the time they are pretty strightforeward and polite---my experince is that it only gets nasty with the folks that start being nasty.

They get what they give--either direction.


Chris Thomas

[glad2bhere]

Dear Aaron:

Though you stated plainly that you were looking for no responses I think there is an additional bit that needs to be addressed in hand with what you brought up and especially in terms of "kicking" someone when they are down. I probably would not raise this issue at all except for your mention of the purpose of these forums to share information and it is this regard that I raise my point.

The nice thing about kicking people, discrediting them, character assasination and the like is that gossip is fun. It requires no real knowlege, runs on opinion or at least unsubstantiated statements, and anyone can play with no qualifications required. At the risk of offending you, I must disagree that people who come to forums, even this one are seeking information. Certainly E-BUDO has settled down considerably from the first couple of years which resulted in developing the "No-Holds Bar". But a visit to other forums quickly demonstrates that the enduring, or sustained exchanges are not information focused but superficial and sometimes randy exchanges of impulsive and spontaneous drivel. If you doubt me, you can do my little experiment which I have repeated on at least four major and three minor forums.

1.) Identify a specific piece of information or a concept that you would like to discuss in-depth and post this on the selected forum.
2.) Count the number of responses in a 10-day period.
3.) Now post some salacious or critical observation taking care to keep it emotionally driven.
4.) Count the number of responses in a 10 day period.

With a single exception that I can bring to mind, the classic "Stainless Steel" thread of this forum, the emotion-driven thread will out match the information threads over and over again.

I will also say that some years ago, the respected MA author and researcher, Joe Svinth advised me very candidly to avoid wasting my time on the Internet in such places as forums and chatrooms. His position, as I recall, was that the pedestrian nature of the venue closely supported by the generally low standards or expectations of the participants could only prove a disappointment to me. Six years later, and countless posts on seven forums later I can only acknowlege that Joe was correct from the start and I must accept that my efforts to encourage higher performance have been for naught. People want things the way that they are. And if, in truth there are folks whose company is socially redeeming that will come of individual rather than group efforts.

There is a single last place where I have been hoping to prove myself erred in this post. That place is over on HAPKIDO FORUM a rather recent start-up on which I currently find myself as one of the moderators. Should this effort fail I will take it as a sure sign of my karma and follow the example of old warriors of the past. I will sell my armor and weapons, shave my head and retire to a monastery.

...well, maybe a convent. :-)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[kimiwane]

I am not creative enough to have a good code word, but something like HOOKIE would work.

All right. I was going to go for TIPPY TOE, but HOOKIE works fine for me.

In the end I know that those trying to root out budo frauds are trying to do right. But I would urge some keeping things in perspective, relax, have fun, practice more, talk less, and remember that there are liars in every arena of life, at least budo isn’t life and death where a lie and bs-ers might be the end of someone.

Could even be that some of the "less legitimate" stuff out there is really better long-term training for self-defense than "legitimate" but misunderstood budo. Not often true, but could be.

Also proving someone else is crap dosen't make us more 'real.'

That's the sad part.

Thanks for the comments.

[Aaron T]

Chris, it sounds as though you and I are in agreement on the major points.

Bruce, I know Joe quite well and agree with him. If you consider how long I have been on this forum and then add up the two accounts number of posts (the first being lost to a weird thing with passwords) I still only number a bit over 200 posts. I take part in only two boards, and even then keep my mouth closed most of the time. On occasion I post, usually to be ignored becasue my posts typically are none of what you described.

Finally Kimiwane, tippytoe works just fine...but then something with a bit of jockularity may help folks remember to keep it all in perspective. How about ...TOE Sucking....(did I reveal too much? :) )

Regrards
Aaron Fields

[Joseph Svinth]

FWIW, I have more posts on this board than just about anybody else, and I post at half a dozen others. What boards do best is allow you to discover who is saying something useful or intriguing. After you've ascertained this, then you can read the books or articles written by those people (many of the better bloggers are also published authors).

After that, you have to decide whether you are content knowing what everyone knows (or should know) or whether you want to go beyond. To go beyond, original research is required. Original research is hard work.

Gossip, on the other hand, is easy.

[MikeWilliams]

Gossip, on the other hand, is easy.

And fun. To paraphrase somebody or other: "It's easy to mock. So we do."

I've been known to fling the odd jibe here and there (hey, I get bored at work...), but overall I agree with Aaron.

The Konigun thread got me thinking about some of the same issues. To me, what seemed important were the allegations of cult-like behaviour and criminality - but what most people focused on was the (obviously) dubious lineage. Since it was a) obvious bollocks, and b) not likely to produce a sensible answer from the Konigun folks, I fail to understand why people went on and on about it for page after page.

Maybe they were bored at work too.

(No disrespect intended to anyone - many of the people on that thread were folks I respect and mostly enjoy reading)

[Roger Conant]

Mr. Fields’ question, why not just conclude that this fake ryu is just that, call it, and move on, came at an opportune time for me. Mr. Fields wrote, “In truth nobody cares and whom does it really hurt in the end other than the people being duped?”
Just a couple of weeks ago a friend who has a small koryu group told me about a recent experience he had on the mainland. He has permission from his teacher in Japan to begin teaching parts of the curriculum. He got it after five years in Japan training in the ryu and he makes regular trips back there. He went to his local community center and asked to rent space for teaching a couple of friends who wanted to begin training. He started to explain to the center’s director that it was an old-fashioned kind of Japanese fighting art.
“Is it anything like koryu bujutsu?” the director of the center asked.
My friend was surprised, of course. That’s not the sort of thing you expect the average American to know about. He said, yes, it was and asked how the director knew about koryu.
“We had a group here teaching that stuff,” the director said. “One of the students got hurt. Then the uncle of the student turned out to be someone who knew something about Japan. He came to us and told us this guy who was teaching was basically faking a story about this stuff. It turns out what he was teaching was things he got from watching samurai movies. We were lucky we weren’t sued.”
Needless to say, my friend did not get any space rented to him at that community center. The director informed him that he had also called local YMCAs and other such places to warn them about the “fake martial arts stuff” that was going around. One of the things the director said to my fiend that he passed on to me was “Yeah, I know all about koryu bujutsu—unfortunately.”
That’s whom gets hurt, Mr. Fields.
I think you and others make a good argument and I can see your points. I don’t entirely disagree with them. I don’t think it is a matter of right and wrong. I think it’s a matter of in what perspective you see these arts.
I would agree more with your position if it were true that these frauds were off by themselves, playing pretend and in those cases where or if they are, you are entirely justified in your opinion. But more often I see cases like the one that probably motivated your letter, the “Yachigusa ryu” thing. They aren’t off by themselves. They are presenting information on a publicly accessible website. They are teaching and accepting students. They are giving demonstrations and presenting their system as a koryu. That reflects, like it or not, on legitimate koryu. It reflects on all martial arts. We all have had a great laugh over the Worst Dogi photos. But the irony is that the joke is on us. Because to a hell of a lot of the general public, those people represent “martial arts” in this country. The way we laugh at and scorn those clowns is how a lot of people react to you. And me. Is it really unreasonable for some of us to take exception to those mis-characterizations, to protest, and to publicly shame those responsible?
Here’s something else to consider:
If koryu bujutsu and other such arts are going to survive in the United States, they will have to attract people who are intelligent enough to understand them and who have some grasp of the culture they came from. The people who practice will have to have some ability to speak or at least understand Japanese. They will have to have the financial means to be able to spend a lot of time practicing them, including incurring expenses like traveling to Japan. If you look around at the senior teachers and practitioners of koryu here right now, you’ll see that at least in part defines them, in fact. Koryu don’t advertise or “need” students. But if they are going to be maintained, it will be because of people like that as well. How do you think the average well-educated, financially successful and sophisticated person would react to the goofy fiction on the Yachigusa ryu website? Do you think he’s going to take something like that seriously? Do you think he’s going to want to devote a big, big chunk of his life devoted to something like that? That website—I’m not picking on them, there are dozens of others just like it—is an advertisement for not getting involved in koryu. It would drive away the very people many koryu groups would like to have in their ranks.

Whenever these threads get cooking, there is often someone writing in as you have, to criticize the participants, accusing them of being obsessed with being “police” or “kicking people when they’re down,” or of not having enough of a real life. All that may or may not be true. But those are ad hominem arguments. You’re criticizing the person, not their positions. How about that Korean who just got caught faking scientific evidence about cloning? Can you imagine him or anyone else writing “Why do you care so much?” to his critics and detractors in the scientific community? Sure, martial arts aren’t as important as that. It’s pretentious to think so. But is it wrong to care passionately about them? Get on a baseball website and I bet you’ll see conversations that go on for days about whether Sammy Sosa was a better hitter than Mark McGwire and what about the steroid thing and the baseballs being juiced and blah-blah-blah. To those of us who aren’t fans, it’s tiresome and maybe even silly. But they’re not asking us to judge them or to participate. It’s easy to just ignore those threads here that don’t interest you. I find all the conversations about Daito ryu, for instance, to be tedious and boring. I don’t care about it. But I can see where others do and I don’t begrudge them nor do I question their motivations.

I began the thread about Yachigusa ryu because a friend asked if I’d ever heard of it. I hadn’t, looked at their site, and wanted to know if anyone at e-budo had any knowledge or experience. That’s it. It didn’t begin maliciously other than to note, in a flippant way, that the story sounded like bad fiction. It did. Further responses from the man who’s defending it and later, by proxy from the leader of it, did nothing to make it sound any more factual.
You also mentioned Jim Benson. I am primarily responsible for the series of threads ridiculing him, mostly by posting his own words here. He has publicly smeared people I know and respect and like. He is actively presenting information that is fraudulent, absurd, and twisted way out of context. He does it all because, I suspect, of some pathological need to slime others because he thinks that will earn him the respect and status he craves. In short, he's doing what you’re accusing those of responding to him of doing. How long would you allow someone you care for to be slapped around before you interceded? And how would you react if a third person strolled over and scolded you for kicking the attacker when he’s down? Your response, Mr. Fields, to this analogy would be that fine, go ahead and hit him back. But don’t keep hammering after he’s down or has quit. True. But Benson just kept slapping, for a long time. When he did, he got slapped back. Finally, he and I seem to have reached an agreement over this. He discontinues new postings of his paranoid, ignorant ramblings on a publicly accessible site and I leave him alone. If he starts it up again, I’ll be back. If you think that’s kicking a man when he’s down, you and I would disagree on the definition of “down.”
The other charge you made has also been made before, the one that chides some of us for not having a real life and being obsessed with rooting out the fakes and that maybe we’re trying to make up for some of our own inadequacies. I can only speak for myself, but I’d bet I have spent more time doing the day’s dishes than I have in writing those posts. It takes up a fraction of my day. It’s a good mental exercise, to look at the poor logic or mistaken facts and to counter them. It’s good for composing my thoughts and for getting them into readable form. And again, no one is demanding that you read them or participate in these discussions.
Finally, it is my understanding that a lot of budo is about confrontation and about interacting with others. I think it is fascinating to see someone like the Yachigusa ryu guy be put under the pressure of the confrontation that’s happened. He wasn’t bullied into it. He volunteered. Now he’s in a tight spot. It is very worthwhile to see how he handles it. It gives me a lot of thought in how I would handle things if I were in that position. Will his ego allow him to just walk away? Or will he succumb to the need to try to vindicate himself? It’s a study in strategy and human behavior. My assumption is that he knows the story his teacher has told is bs. But it satisfies him at some level and so he defends it, knowing it’s a hopeless cause. Is there going to be some point when he looks in the mirror and accepts the fact he’s helping perpetuate a fraud? Some people have done that in the case of Fred Lovret’s hoaxes and they have in no small part because of discussions like the one right now over Yachigusa ryu. That’s not to say those of us who have written in this regard are Crusaders for the Truth. But discussions of this nature here at e-budo have had some effect. And speaking for myself again, often I learn a lot about how not to argue or present a position when I read responses from people with whom I agree. Far from being boring, these discussions stimulate. They make me think.
Again, I understand they are not of interest to you and I respect that. I believe, however, that there is evidence they are worthwhile and I don’t think it is unreasonable for members here to make conclusions different from yours.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Roger:

My deepest, most sincere, and heartfelt thank you for saying so eloquently what I have pushed to express to people on a half-dozen forums regarding the Korean martial arts. In the Hapkido community the struggle with fraud and misrepresentation is on-going and the response is as you say -- to wit: "who does it hurt?"

In addition I can add that in the arena of the KMA there is also the dynamic of "territoriality". I am sure this is likewise well-known in other MA fields. However its play in the area of KMA is particularly insidious as it not only serves to buffer questionable practitioners, but also routinely produces "dirty contracts" in which individuals who cultivate questionable standing or practices come to agreements with other individuals of like background. The result is an understanding of "I won't 'out' you if you don't 'out' me."
By extension such agreements also produce the unlikeliest of bed-fellows should a third person come in and begin to rock the boat.

Of course this is all driven by the desire to explode through the rank system and begin to turn a dollar as quickly as possible by carving out a turf for oneself. Respect for Korean culture, knowlege of the practices as art and cultivation of a moral and autonomous Character are invariably obscured by the daily balance sheet and bank statement. Yet I challenge anyone to get any of the long time KMA practitioners to do much more than shrug. Sheesh.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[kimiwane]

And fun. To paraphrase somebody or other: "It's easy to mock. So we do."

Well...considering some of the stuff people are putting out there to be mocked, it can be hard not to. Most of these threads are initiated by somebody's promotional website, which turns out to be chockfull of nuts, to be frank.

A guy on the yachigusa thread said if it's a sin to claim that you have your own ryu (paraphrasing) then it's a common sin.

And, yes, it is. But here is what stimulates me to these type of discussions. I trained with Minoru Mochizuki, an early student of Morihei Ueshiba. I had a photograph in my dojo of me in the back line of a group in which Mochizu sensei was sitting in front.

A girlfriend came by the dojo and I proudly showed her the picture. I pointed to Mochizuki sensei and said, "That man is a tenth degree black belt."

"Really?" she said. "My cousin is tenth degree!" (in South Carolina or someplace)

In other words, people don't know the difference between a silk purse and a sow's ear and moreover, many don't care. They are happy to carry their change around in a stitched up pig's ear. Nay, proud, they are!

The Konigun thread got me thinking about some of the same issues. To me, what seemed important were the allegations of cult-like behaviour and criminality - but what most people focused on was the (obviously) dubious lineage.

And now we come to the very painful part: even a bona fide "connection" to Japan is no guarantee of real "legitimacy". Even Mochizuki sensei gave some honorary promotions. And plenty of people with legitimate ties to a recognized tradition are running little cults on that basis.

So even if "we" point out all the unlineaged hucksters, there will still be gloriously lineaged hucksters among the sincere followers of legitimate traditional arts. There will still be abuses by weak personalities who need the trappings of rank and name against weaker personalities. That alone is enough for a lot of people, but add the allure of money and the hunger of ignorance and sows' ears end up in many a pocket.

[Aaron T]

Roger,

I think you added in your own agenda a bit to what I was saying. I have no trouble with uncovering frauds etc. My issue is that it goes on and on, repeating the same points and questions over and over. It seems that a fair number of the folks here understood where I was coming from, so prior to throwing me into your own point, please be clear on my intent. I understand and sympathize with your position and your friend's situation. I will add that as a practioner of both gendai and koryu, koryu has no corner on the quirky-!!!!!!!!er market.

I understand peoples' frustration with fraud, I am just saying it doesn't take 20 people saying the same thing to make the point. In addition, I respect everyone's rights to do whatever it is they want, yet on the same hand I wanted to vocalize a issue.

If anyone has issue with my comments please feel free to contact me directly.

Regards,
Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
Sea-Town Sombo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org

[kimiwane]

It’s good for composing my thoughts and for getting them into readable form.

I agree. And I find your posts literate and interesting. These forums have also allowed me to make public some of the thoughts I've been working out in my mind since living in Japan fifteen years ago.

It would be easy to blur things and say "Well, that's good enough." but my teacher would never have done that. And while I'm not worthy to put my feet in the little numbered patterns that describe his tai sabaki, I know when someone is laying a line of pure bs and I just can't let it pass.

When you do carpentry, you have to cut straight lines. The saw has a guide that keeps the board perfectly straight. And that is what a sensei does. It's what a father does. Now, the board being cut straight screams out. You have to wear earplugs to do that work. But when a child screams, you still have to guide him straight. When a student (or a would-be soke) screams, it's because he wants to come through crooked. These boards are just like that, too, a guide that keeps things straight and square.

The screams are just those who are being cut straight.

[Aaron T]

Sorry David's post dropped in right before i posted my last.


David brings a a good point which leads me a bit away from the original intent. As all of us would agree, a traceable tradition often makes no difference in combative application or injury rate etc. I have seen plenty of "papered" guys who were real bastards and beat the snot out of their students. Some great fighters who couldn't teach worth a lick and their students were awful. I have encounter folks practicing stuff that is hodge-podge at best, but who were considerate teachers etc. As far as application the toughest guy I have ever met was a guy who ran with the Crips back in the 80's and had no combative training, save hands like stones, a chin that couldn't be broken, and was a hell'va athlete. In the end budo is like everything else, (as David said, even the most traceable lines,) it comes with people so with a bit of everything.

Finally, so as not to be a hypocrite about going on and on, I have said my piece. :) I hope I have been clear, but it is likley that I have been clear as mud.

Aaron Fields

[kimiwane]

Finally, it is my understanding that a lot of budo is about confrontation and about interacting with others.

And it's also about judging and being judged. Budoka spend years and years being corrected on every detail, things that often verge even into one's private life.

Does this make us perfect?

No, but it does make us somewhat judgmental--maybe honestly so, but often compulsively so. But we get our authority, at least to guide our students, from the years we put in being corrected and guided.

The fake ryu then authorizes someone to judge and correct others without ever having had to face the real scrutiny of a real master of the real ancient Japanese martial arts. They promote students to ranks that they, themselves, never received from a teacher who earned it.

But on the other hand, we have "legitimately connected" teachers who get honorary ranks, then make students jump through hoops they, themselves never jumped through. The students, emotionally dependent on those ranks for their identity, put up with abuse for the sake of the belt and the shrewd teacher manipulates this need for personal gain.

The fake ryus are often created to escape such a teacher. Or at least they see it that way. But chances are they will do exactly the same thing to their students.