Frangible green rounds for home use?

[Zoli Elo]

Frangible green rounds for home use? I was thinking that it might be best to not have rounds that can cut through the thin walls of my home. Also not having a lead core could be a plus...

Anyone with any thoughts on the topic?

Zoli Elo

[joe yang]

I just spent a training week at the PBSO range. One of the guys at the class developes bullets for ICC. He brought all kinds of frangible green rounds. We shot it on gelatin, auto glass, steel plates, a car. It was very impressive, it performed every bit as well, if not better thans the range ammo and an assortment of duty rounds. It was clean and trouble free. I picked up a couple boxes of 9mm hollow point.

The ICC stuff promises to get better as the technology evolves. They can custom design mission specific loads.

[Zoli Elo]

Other than cost they do seem to be a pretty good choice. I will see if I can get some "free" smaples. Having never, shot with them, I value your input into their output. Thanks Joe.

Zoli Elo

[Maro]

Excuse the neophyte question:

If the military are proscribed from using Hollow-Point rounds, why are they legal in Civil use?

Curious?

[Zoli Elo]

NATO rules... There are lots of special rounds that can be had but not used in war. And a few rounds that can be used in war but not be had by the general population in the US.

Zoli Elo

[Maro]

That's what I thought - it's been a while since I shot regularly.

[joe yang]

As a duty round, the frangible ammunition is competative. As a practise round, they are expensive. We were fortunate to have a rep from ICC in class who brought cases of factory seconds. I got a couple of boxes for carry. I'll shot them up a year from now and replace them with fresh stuff. That's the only way I can afford to shoot duty ammunition.

[Brian Owens]

Frangible green rounds for home use? I was thinking that it might be best to not have rounds that can cut through the thin walls of my home....
I've used CorBon's Glaser Safety Slug for years. There are similar products made by others now, but Glasers have a history of performance.

Here's a link: http://mysite.elixirlabs.com/index.php?uid=12665&page=1977

[Brian Owens]

...If the military are proscribed from using Hollow-Point rounds, why are they legal in Civil use?
The military/political masterminds have determined that dropping bombs on people is okay, but using a bullet that can immediately stop a man while minimizing risk to innocent bystanders is "inhumane."

Hollowpoints are designed to expand within their target, thus delivering all the available energy. Police, defense-oriented civilians, and hunters of many types of game all use hollowpoints for that reason.

FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) / harball ammo has its place, but in many cases can result in a "through and through" shot that over-penetrates the target, not delivering the full enrgy of the round and also possibly hitting an unintended target.

Either can kill with great efficiency, but in self-defense the object isn't to kill an attacker but to stop him immediately; and for that, expanding rounds are better.

Frangible rounds go a different route. Those bullets break up into smaller pieces on impact, creating multiple wound channels that produce nearly as much "shocking power" as an expanding round while also reducing over-penetration. An added benefit is that if they miss the target, they will break apart when hitting the ground, a wall, etc. and the smaller fragments are less hazardous than a whole round would be.

In the case of the Glaser round I mentioned above, they were chosen by the Sky Marshals (not sure if they still use them) because they were thought to be safer in the event shots had to be fired inside an aircraft in flight.

Another option for home defense would be a large-bore revolver loaded with a shot shell in the first chamber, for a quick first shot, followed by hollowpoints for any needed follow-up shots.

In areas where handguns are banned from law abiding citizens I recommend a shotgun with #6 shot for the first round and buckshot or slugs for the following loads.

In both the revolver and the shotgun, this loading is one that will minimize the risk of shooting through walls (minimize, but not completely elliminate), while still providing a measure of stopping power.

HTH.

[Joseph Svinth]

Back in 1867, the Russian Army developed rifle bullets that essentially exploded upon hitting a soft target such as a horse or person. The Czar decided that this was inhumane, and so in the Saint Petersburg declaration of 1868, the use of exploding projectiles lighter than 400 grams was prohibited by international law. However, with the development of high-powered smokeless powders during the 1880s, soldiers on colonial campaigns found that solid high-speed projectiles didn't have as much stopping power as some of the older, large bore, bullets. And of course international law doesn't apply when one is involved in colonial campaigns. Therefore, in 1897, the Indian Army introduced a new soft-tipped cartridge for the .303 Enfield rifle. Designed by Captain Bertie Clay, they were popularly called Dum-Dums, after the armory in Calcutta where they were made. While subsequently banned from military use, Clay's bullets are ancestors of modern hollow-point bullets.

The conventions against the use of expanding bullets in warfare date to 1899, at which time 26 world governments agreed in principle that they would refrain from using asphyxiating gases, dropping bombs from balloons "or similar new machines," or using bullets that expand easily in the human body. The only one of these agreements to survive the Great War of 1914-1918 was the ban on expanding bullets. That restriction survived for several reasons. First, soft-tipped bullets frequently jam the mechanisms of self-loading firearms. Equally importantly, researchers had developed fully jacketed bullets that were equally destructive in living tissue. Examples of such improved military cartridges include the German spitzers of 1908, the British .303 cartridge of 1910, and the Soviet 5.45x39 cartridge of 1974.

As for the future of military small arms cartridges, I think it lies with rocket-propelled grenades, as the projectile is big enough to readily become a smart round. I know, the Army wants smart rounds in 5.56mm, but I don't think we'll have that technology for decades. However, 40mm is another matter altogether.

[Brian Owens]

I've used CorBon's Glaser Safety Slug for years....
Here's a link: http://mysite.elixirlabs.com/index.php?uid=12665&page=1977
Here's a better link, Cor-Bon's actual Glaser page:

http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/glaser/glaser.htm

[Zoli Elo]

Thanks for the input Brain but I am also looking for clean lead free rounds.

If I can figure out the DODAC for 45 frangible green rounds that would be useful - anyone know it?

Zoli Elo

[joe yang]

The ICC frangible green bullets are a mix of copper and tin powder. The two metals are compressed in a mold and heated. The tin fuses together the copper. By controlling the density of the mix and the temperature of the sintering process, bullets with different characteristics can be developed.

The demonstration I participated in, using ballistic gelatin showed the ICC hollow points penetrated to the same depth and created the same wound channel as conventional hollowpoints. Taking into account the limitations of ballistic gelatin and the fact that this was a demonstration, not a test, the frangible green rounds created a larger, permanant wound channel, it made bigger holes in the cavity of the gelatin.

[Zoli Elo]

What I value your input Joe... ZE

[ScottUK]

Thanks for the input Brain but I am also looking for clean lead free rounds.Ah damn - I was gonna recommend Hatton rounds. Not much overpenetration there but a bit heavy on the lead... :D

[Brian Owens]

Thanks for the input Brain but I am also looking for clean lead free rounds.
Okay; I just thought safety was your number one concern, and lead-free was a distant number two.

Considering the cost of Glasers (~$25.00 for six rounds) you wouldn't be using them much for range practice but only when the chips are down (and presumably lead poisoning is the least of your worries), so I thought they were worth mentioning.

[joe yang]

Lead must be a worry. I got gigged for picking up brass in my ball cap. Apparently it is in violation of some sort of OSHA regulation. The lead from the brass gets in your cap. You wear your cap. You sweat. The lead is absorbed into your scalp. Sigh

[Zoli Elo]

Yup, I want both frangible and green...

Zoli Elo

[Brian Owens]

Yup, I want both frangible and green...
:o

I didn't catch that the "green" was as in "environmentally friendly." I thought it was a brand designation of some sort that I hadn't heard of; like Glaser's Safety Slug Blue and Safety Slug Silver lines, or Wincester's Silvertip.

Silly me.

[Zoli Elo]

Yeah it is confusing as others thought that I meant tip color code.

Zoli Elo

[Joseph Svinth]

Be like the Lone Ranger, and load pre-1964 silver dimes in your 12-gauge.

Stops vampires, too.

[the Khazar Kid]

Frangible rounds sound great, sounds like the sort of thing you would shoot Jabberwock with if you were too far away to use your Vorpal sword. I hear Jabberwock season is coming up soon!

Jesse Peters