Brazilian Jujitsu exposed the faults of all traditional fighting arts [Archive]

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eight

01-31-2006, 01:37 AM

treesurfer78

01-31-2006, 02:06 AM

Hi Eight,

From a combat point of view I agree slightly with you. Someone who has trained in grappling/ground work will be better if and when the fight reaches the ground. But any 'stand-up budoka,' as you call them, worth his salt would not neccessarily let the fight go to theground. E.G They would evade take-downs and strike back with kicks and strikes.

Secondly, many budo-ka train in order to follow the history and tradition of their chosen style, not to go out fighting or enter the ring. It has nothing to do with combat, but following the Way of their art/style. For me it is karate and iaido. No ground-work at all. If, heaven-forbid, I am ever in a fight and it reaches ground I may be in trouble, but I'd certainly do my best to make sure the fight stays upright.

P Goldsbury

01-31-2006, 02:16 AM

yoj

01-31-2006, 02:35 AM

Aikido is completely useless on the ground.
It is time for narrow minded budokas to expand their arsonals.

The narrowness of the mind is proportional to the tightness of the focus.....

MikeWilliams

01-31-2006, 03:28 AM

1995 called and wants its thread back. :rolleyes:

Andrew S

01-31-2006, 03:32 AM

Don't know about the rest of you, but I smell troll.

monkeyboy_ssj

01-31-2006, 03:48 AM

Lets all drink steak shakes and make our necks HUGE!!! BEEFCAKE!

It's all opinion at the end of the day. personally; If I'm in a situation where someone is trying to fight me I highly doubt they will have grappling and uber ground skills me thinks :rolleyes: Most of the time it will be a crossed eyed drunk...

I do MA for culture, fitness and self defence last.

I feel sorry for people that do styles that just concentrate on fighting and that's all they got...

Green_Dreads

01-31-2006, 04:04 AM

Eight,

For one, be prepared for backlash for posting this. For a lot of us, this is all old news, and most would agree that ground-fighting is an essential skill, but there are some facts to check when saying everyone must learn it.

The idea that 9/10 fights go to the ground. This is simply not true - I have a study done by the LAPD which says something more like 6/10 (I can send you the link if you PM me, no time to dig it up now). I have also heard opinions from people working in security roles such as bouncers and police officers who claim they have never taken a fight to the ground. The UFC, and Pride, are based around athletes, who train for these situations and actively attempt to take their opponents down. In most fights I've seen, when one guy gets knocked down he just stands up.

UFC and Pride FC are not the 'ultimate' test of the martial arts they claim to be. I've seen better grappling elsewhere, and much better striking. Japan has the better MMA, and the UFC mostly is just a brawl.

As for being narrow minded - be careful with comments like this, because people could accuse you of the same. I studied a gendai style of jujutsu for 4 years, I have some ground skills that I still keep sharp with grappling matches with friends, but I now practise only aikido. Why? I prefer aikido, and its not useless on the ground, its just better standing up. Only a fool goes to the ground in a fight on purpose when there could be several attackers, and the assailant may not need taking to the ground, a skilled budoka could finish most drunken, normally-built attackers quite successfully standing.

Fighting seems like a good skill to have, but lets face it, the martial arts have bigger things to offer. Practise Tai Chi - only a few throws, no ground work, but a lifetime of exceptional health and (depending on how you take it) spiritual and emotional well-being. As opposed to making someone tap out in a ring.

So I agree, ground-fighting is a required skill for self-defense, but so is striking. BJJ is not a super-amazing-win-all system, its suffered its defeats, as have all systems (again, if you want this sourced I'll do my best to get links).

All the best

Ree

01-31-2006, 04:37 AM

Eight

I practice Tenjin Shinyo Ryu the forerunner of both Kodokan Judo and Brazilian ju jitsu,and I disagree with your statement.If you look into many different Koryu Jujutsu you will find various levels of training both stand up and ground fighting.The only difference between Koryu and Gendai arts is the students mindset,don't look at the technique,look at the principle.

NickR

01-31-2006, 04:41 AM

Fighting in a competition with rules in a ring with a soft-ish flaw is worlds different from fighting in the outside world.

Eight, what do you class as a traiditional fighting art and are we talking traditional fighting arts for use in competition or use in the real world ?

Just want to make sure we are comparing apples with apples.

monkeyboy_ssj

01-31-2006, 05:06 AM

Starkjudo

01-31-2006, 05:53 AM

MMA arts fights exposed the needs for a more complete system to people who were just watchign the fighng and hadn't been training a lifetime in the martial arts already. There were plenty of people out there besides the fight fans who were well aware of the limitations of a standign only game long before the Gracies made BJJ the latest MA fad.

MikeWilliams

01-31-2006, 06:30 AM

the UFC mostly is just a brawl.

I'm trying hard not to get drawn into this, but I'd just like to say: bollo... er I mean cobblers!

The rest of your post I agree with. :)

Evan London

01-31-2006, 06:47 AM

The few times I had the opportunity to "wrassle" a BJJ Player, all I needed to do is grab some skin, poke an eye, or stab them in the neck and it was over. They screamed like a little girl, said "You can't do that!!!" and then found themselves with a neck full of my knee and their other body parts in positions god hadn't intened them to be in.

The benefit of many, but not all, "Traditional arts" is that There are no RULES. Just like in the parking lot of the bar where you may get jumped.

Chuck.Gordon

01-31-2006, 07:19 AM

I am a big fan of the UFC and PRIDE in Japan ... Learn from the lessons of these programs, and cross train.

Interesting thoughts. Please, how long have you trained, in what systems, under whom? That info could assist us with putting your comments in perspective.

I think, as far as martial sports-tainment, a la the UFC, you're probably absolutely correct.

Outside that context, the world of martial study is far to broad to paint it so narrowly.

MikeWilliams

01-31-2006, 07:33 AM

The few times I had the opportunity to "wrassle" a BJJ Player, all I needed to do is grab some skin, poke an eye, or stab them in the neck and it was over. They screamed like a little girl, said "You can't do that!!!" and then found themselves with a neck full of my knee and their other body parts in positions god hadn't intened them to be in.

Did you say to them "let's fight vale tudo" and try that?

If not, then you were just being disrespectful by trying that !!!! during randori.

Green_Dreads

01-31-2006, 09:20 AM

I'm trying hard not to get drawn into this, but I'd just like to say: bollo... er I mean cobblers!

The rest of your post I agree with. :)

Your opinion on the UFC is probably more educated than mine, but the debate deserves a thread, lets not deny it one. I'll write one up when the effort appears.

niten ninja

01-31-2006, 09:51 AM

"Two things are certain: a ground fighter will always be able to take the fight to the ground, no matter how talented a stand up fighter is."

Are you by any chance a BJJ noob? The sort of person who has one week of BJJ and Immediately thinks they're some uber MA who can beat anyone. If you said a good ground fighter then I'd be more inclined to agree.

"Aikido is completely useless on the ground."

Most of this forum don't take aikido, so why do we care?

Margaret Lo

01-31-2006, 09:56 AM

Against the Vikings!! Valhalla here I come. aaaaaaah aaaah

http://www.dennyweb.com/viking_kittens.htm

M

MikeWilliams

01-31-2006, 10:08 AM

Against the Vikings!! Valhalla here I come. aaaaaaah aaaah

http://www.dennyweb.com/viking_kittens.htm

*wipes drink off monitor*

Evan London

01-31-2006, 10:14 AM

Did you say to them "let's fight vale tudo" and try that?

If not, then you were just being disrespectful by trying that !!!! during randori.

Nope. No sneakiness or meanness involved. They were being bullies and pompus asses who challenged me to a contest. They thought they'd choke me out real quick by bringing me to the ground. Surprise!

Moral of the story: Never underestimate someone from an art you are unfamiliar with. Never let your ego run your mouth, Never act like a macho bone head.

"A samurai's best weapon is good manners"

Margaret Lo

01-31-2006, 10:22 AM

Moral of the story: Never underestimate someone from an art you are unfamiliar with. Never let your ego run your mouth, Never act like a macho bone head.

"A samurai's best weapon is good manners"

And never, never, ever underestimate neo-natal, fluffy, feline predators of Scandinavian heritage....who are our overlords.

M
we drive our ships to new lands...on we sweep with threshing oars...

Tim Mailloux

01-31-2006, 01:31 PM

"Two things are certain: a ground fighter will always be able to take the fight to the ground, no matter how talented a stand up fighter is."

Why don't you tell that to Chick Liddel. He is with-out a doubt one of, if not the top standup guy in the UFC. He fought Jeremy Horn several months ago. Many people in the know consider Jeremy Horm to be one of the best ground fighters in the game, he is just not that well know to UFC fans. But he has trained many of the UFC fighters, and many of them picked him to win the fight. Horn was helpless against Chick Liddel. Every time he tried to shoot in Liddel made him pay dearly. He must have been knocked down 4 or 5 times by strikes and he was unable to take Chuck down. The intresting things was that when Chuck did put him down, he didn't charge in for the ground and pound. He stayed on his feet and made Heremy Horn get back up and fight on his feet. It was kind of funny to watch. Chuck would knock him down, Jeremy would stumble back and fall into his guard and wait for Chuck. Chuck would just stand back and wave Jeremy to his feet. This senario repeated about 4 or 5 times over 3 rounds until Jeremy quit due to a cut above his eye.

Rich Franklin (the middle weight champ) is another top stand up guy that has been able to deal with the ground guys. While Franklin does have a good ground game from training with Jeremy Horn and Matt Huges. He is primarily a stand up fighter and only seems to go to the ground when he has to.

Ubermint

01-31-2006, 01:35 PM

Nope. No sneakiness or meanness involved. They were being bullies and pompus asses who challenged me to a contest. They thought they'd choke me out real quick by bringing me to the ground. Surprise!

I saw a real live unicorn the other day.

Too bad there was noone else there. And I didn't have a camera.

Oh well.

Seriously, who, when, where?

niten ninja

01-31-2006, 01:51 PM

I was quoting someone else. Although to a certain extent I agree.

Ubermint, do you have to sound quite so angry? but yeah some corroboration would be good.

Wanderingbudoka

01-31-2006, 03:10 PM

I am a big fan of the UFC and PRIDE in Japan. What these programs have taught us martial artists, is that in order to be a complete fighter, You must have ground skills. Two things are certain: a ground fighter will always be able to take the fight to the ground, no matter how talented a stand up fighter is. Aikido is completely useless on the ground.
It is time for narrow minded budokas to expand their arsonals. Learn from the lessons of these programs, and cross train.

That is a total fallacy, I don't care what anyone says. While ground skills are nice to have in some situations, I don't believe they are mandatory to being a good fighter. While I can only count what street fights I've been in on two hands, I can say that I've never been taken to the ground once during those. One of my disputes had been with a varsity high school wrestler while I was still in high school. I didn't give him a chance to take the fight to the ground. I tossed him around with a really sloppy, but fairly effective kokyu-nage. So, don't knock Aikido. While I really don't know myself how effective it is on the ground, it kept the fight from going there. Recently, I was involved in a mugging attempt. 13-15 guys against myself and two of my friends. Taking that fight to the ground at anytime would've resulted in getting the snot kicked out of me. I think anything shy of illegal other than taking off would've resulted in getting the snot kicked out of me though. I really think it's time for the MMA/UFC/PrideFC community to get off of their high horse. There are no faults of traditional fighting arts when practiced in their own unique context. Claiming your art is the end-all be-all greatest art ever, then there's a problem.

Shitoryu Dude

01-31-2006, 04:06 PM

I'll willingly put my ruger-ryu up against any other art at any time.

47th ronin

01-31-2006, 05:16 PM

yoj

01-31-2006, 05:24 PM

"Aikido is completely useless on the ground."

aikido in space rocks....

Bod

01-31-2006, 05:32 PM

2 things.

1: Anyone who can punish a good wrestler as he shoots in has learned from the ground game. Good on him.

2:How was the viking kittens boat propelled?

monkeycam

01-31-2006, 06:30 PM

2:How was the viking kittens boat propelled?

slave mice in the galley

Hissho

01-31-2006, 07:38 PM

Mike-

I'm with you in spirit but I just can't take these silly threads anymore....just letting you know you aren't alone.

George Kohler

01-31-2006, 08:06 PM

I am a big fan of the UFC and PRIDE in Japan.

You're in hell for not signing your name on your posts.

kickin

01-31-2006, 10:23 PM

I have seen a number of BJJ stylists get thier butts kicked in Karate and Judo classes because they can not fight standing up.
I also now for fact, from experience, that many Aikido techniques are banned by the Gracies in class bouts and in thier tournaments. I would wonder, if they are useless, why ban them. Let the Aikidoka use thier worthless techniques and lose.
A skilled ground fighter will not be necessarily be able to take a stand-up fighter to the ground. Also, the BJJ people that I have seen are only able to fight on the ground when both fighters are down there.
The usual strategy I have seen is that they throw themselves on the ground and try to pull the opponent down with them. They usually end up getting stomped. It's always sad to see. Karate especially is very strong in the area of controlling an opponent on the ground while standing. Also it is very strong in the area of defense against the BJJ style tackles.
BJJ is very weak in the area of standup fighting. The average BJJ player would not stand a chance against the average traditional karateka (not from a mcdojo).
Not to mention that there is ground fighting in Karate. It's just not widely taught. One thing that BJJ did force out in the (more) open is the ground fighting in arts like Goju Ryu that has historically only been taught at higher levels.
BJJ is a sport designed to be played on a smooth flat surface while wearing a speedo, against a single opponent on the mat, with a referee and all sorts of rules. Despite the protests that it is "real fighting" with "no holds barred", there are more barred techniques than legal techniques.
There are no rules in a real fight and that's what you learn in Karate and even Aikido (at least Yoshinkan).
I tried to teach Judo to a BJJ player once. But he was stupid and dense. He refused to learn how to breakfall because he thought no one would ever be able to throw him because of his BJJ skills. Then we had to stop letting people throw him. The loud thuds from his awkward falls were painful to hear.
He eventually got tired of losing and went back to his BJJ claiming Judo was not real enough.
BJJ is essentially useless in the real world.
How do you think a BJJ expert would fair against 2 attackers? He would end up dropping to the ground to try and roll one of the gyus down and they woudl both start kicking him in the head. Then he would start crying about illegal techniques.

j. klein

eight

01-31-2006, 10:23 PM

I do MA for culture, fitness and self defence last.

I feel sorry for people that do styles that just concentrate on fighting and that's all they got...[/QUOTE]

Than you are doing something esle, not martial arts. Which is fine I guess.

But don't harbor any notions that you can defend yourself properly.

You ought to read Living the Martial Way by Forrest Morgan

Jason Adams

miami

RobertRousselot

01-31-2006, 10:57 PM

First post and this is the topic you choose???? I smell troll.

1) I am a big fan of the UFC and PRIDE in Japan.
2) What these programs have taught us martial artists, is that in order to be a complete fighter, You must have ground skills.
3) Two things are certain: a ground fighter will always be able to take the fight to the ground, no matter how talented a stand up fighter is.
4) Aikido is completely useless on the ground.
5) It is time for narrow minded budokas to expand their arsonals. Learn from the lessons of these programs, and cross train.

1) Obviously. :rolleyes:
2) “Must”??? I would say a guy like Holyfield is a pretty good fighter and can most likely take care of himself on the street if needed.
3) You speak of “certainties” as if you have documentation to back this. Do you think you could take Holyfield, Tyson or some other fighter like them. You say “no matter how talented a stand up fighter they are”……I think they would beat you senseless.
4) How would you know?
5) Interesting comment and opinion,………. but inaccurate. I have trained in traditional Okinawan “Kuu-ra-dee” for over 25 years. I joined a PRIDE/Muay Thai gym down the road from house. Funny thing is I do rather well against all the MMA guys that you claim “stomp” traditional people into the ground. Most are half my age and some are professionals.

RobertRousselot

01-31-2006, 11:04 PM

Don't know about the rest of you, but I smell troll.

Yeah, refried troll.......

1995 called and wants its thread back. :rolleyes:

That is funny!!!

Ubermint

01-31-2006, 11:09 PM

I also now for fact, from experience, that many Aikido techniques are banned by the Gracies in class bouts and in thier tournaments.... The average BJJ player would not stand a chance against the average traditional karateka (not from a mcdojo).

You're an idiot. (http://www.!!!!!!ido.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/528/cat/523)

RobertRousselot

01-31-2006, 11:38 PM

Here is an interesting video:

Ground fighting??? (http://www.wimp.com/nastyending/)

(warning: graphic language plus extreme sissy fighting)

One thing that sticks out in my mind is how the guy that actually choked the other guy out wanted a bystander with a bat to back off and said so repeatedly while he was on the ground "wining" the fight.
Both guys can't fight and throw punches like they are swatting flies however the general dynamics of the grappler in a "street fight" still apply.
The guy was lucky he had friends around to keep the guy with a stick away.

Green_Dreads

01-31-2006, 11:55 PM

I do MA for culture, fitness and self defence last.

I feel sorry for people that do styles that just concentrate on fighting and that's all they got...

Than you are doing something esle, not martial arts. Which is fine I guess.

But don't harbor any notions that you can defend yourself properly.

You ought to read Living the Martial Way by Forrest Morgan

Jason Adams

miami

I do aikido for many reasons besides self-defense, and I have used aikido techniques many times successfully against live opponents.

If he can defend himself properly, then all the more power to him for training for cultural and health gain rather than the mere ability to beat someone up. Why would this not be martial arts? The martial arts have existed in every culture in some form long before the UFC, and of course contests have always been held, with different rules coming and going.

What happens between two athletes, both trained to fight under certain parameters, does not tell us much about fighting in the real world. In reality a smart fighter will avoid going to the ground wherever possible, unless he is certain he can apply a technique that will immobilize his opponent (straight armbars don't count when three large men are striking you from above). Please, take my advice and do your own research, the UFC is not the final test of martial skill it claims to be.

George Kohler

02-01-2006, 12:23 AM

You're an idiot.

You're in E-Budo Hell.

George Kohler

02-01-2006, 12:25 AM

This thread is stupid.