Katana in a bind

[Aristobulus]

Hello everyone

I have a question about fighting with the katana in a bind. My question is do all (Japanese) sword ryu's teach fighting in and out of the bind? disarms,throws,grappling,etc....

I studied Bujutsu for 2 1/2 years. After shodan , a student could start working on the numerous weapons within the system. I still had a couple more years till I reached shodan. So I only saw a few examples of fighting in the bind ,and I only saw them being performed. I definitely never had the chance to learn them at that time.

Thanks for the help.

[Andy Watson]

Muso Shinden Ryu and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu katas at the Chuden level teach forms delivered at close quarters. Some of the forms are for preventing the sword or the saya being grabbed and used against you.

I don't know of any MSR/MJER forms which specifically have grappling or non-sword techniques in them. The tiny amount I have seen of Suio-ryu makes me suspect that there is a certain amount of grapples in their style. Also the comprehensive bujutsu-ryu (like TSKSR for example) have a grappling section to their curricula.

Regards

[Aristobulus]

Thanks Andy

What does MSR/MJER stand for?

[Andy Watson]

Oops, sorry...

MSR - Muso Shinden Ryu
MJER - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu
TSKSR - Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu

Going TLA mad!!!

[100110]

Mr McCullough

There's a bit of grappling in Tachiuchi no kurai nihonme, Tsukekomi. I can't tell you much about it because I haven't done it yet.

Tsumeai no kurai has similar techniques, specifically nihonme, Kobushi tori, and sanbonme, Nami gaeshi.

FYI, these are paired MJER sets practised with bokuto. Sometimes swords are drawn at the start, sometimes they are sheathed and drawn as uchidachi & shidachi close distance. As I recall, Tsumeai no kurai forms start at pretty close range, and in tatehiza (for the first few at any rate).

MSR probably has the same sets with slightly different kata names & differences in technique. I don't know anything about that.

Disclaimer: This is off the top of my head, and I may be wrong.

[Chidokan]

in the later sets of tachi uchi for MJER there is a rather nice one where someone grabs you around the arms in a lock, so you draw the sword up against the tekkis left arm as if you were starting, say, makko or nukiuchi... also there is a throw in the second set that springs to mind...

[ichibyoshi]

Tatsumi Ryu is one of the koryu which focuses on the sword as its main (but not only) weapon but which also has an entire curriculum devoted to unarmed, close-quarter moves which the tradition calls "yawara".

b

[Charles Mahan]

in the later sets of tachi uchi for MJER there is a rather nice one where someone grabs you around the arms in a lock, so you draw the sword up against the tekkis left arm as if you were starting, say, makko or nukiuchi... also there is a throw in the second set that springs to mind...

And that's not counting the things which are implicit in several of the Tate Hiza and Oku Tachi waza, or for that matter Seiza if you know what to look for.

[Brian Owens]

...I studied Bujutsu for 2 1/2 years.
Which bujutsu did you study?

[Aristobulus]

Hey

thanks for all the post. The more you learn and the more you study you realize there is nothing new under the sun. It seems pointless to study grappling with a sword, but in reality a sword fight can easily get in close and force you to grapple.

"All fencing comes from wrestling" Dobringer 1389

Bushi Shinden Ryu is what I studied. I was in the Bushikai Bugei Dojo.

[Brian Owens]

Bushi Shinden Ryu is what I studied.
I'm not familiar with that bujutsu ryu. You mentioned swordsmanship, but you also said that at some point students could learn different weapons; is it mostly kenjutsu or something else? Is it a sogo bujutsu?

[Aristobulus]

Hey Brian

Its been 2 years since I had to leave because of work. I cant remember all of them. There should be 2 more.

Togakure ryu
Asayama Ichiden ryu
Kukishin ryu
Gyokko ryu
Koto ryu
Shinden Fudo ryu
Takagi Yoshin ryu

The website has changed now, it is bushikai.com The hombu dojo is in Maryland.

[Brian Owens]

...I cant remember all of them. There should be 2 more.

Togakure ryu
Asayama Ichiden ryu
Kukishin ryu
Gyokko ryu
Koto ryu
Shinden Fudo ryu
Takagi Yoshin ryu

The website has changed now, it is bushikai.com The hombu dojo is in Maryland.
The others are likely to be Kumogakure-ryu, Gyokushin-ryu, and/or Gikan-ryu, since these are associated with the others you named.

I am somewhat familiar with those that you named. I was not aware that they had been subsumed under "Bushi Shinden Ryu" and thought it must have come as quite a surprise to Hatsumi Sensei and Ozaki Sensei, the "former" headmasters of these ryu, to learn that they had been replaced by a new "Soke" in the United States.

However, in looking at the Web page for Bushikai, I see no mention of any of the arts listed above -- so maybe there is some misunderstanding somewhere.

[Aristobulus]

Hey Brian

Hatsumi is the Soke that Mr. McGhee always reckcognized. Mr. McGhe is the Kaicho of the Bushikai. from what I understand, Mr. McGhee Made shodan(at least shodan) in the Bujinkan. when Tanemura split from the bujinkan he whent with Tanumura. He finished his training with Tanemura. When Tanemura started coming to the U.S.A. ,Mr. McGhee is who set up his rooms and appointments. In 1989 they had a falling out and Mr. McGhee started the Bushikai. They have mended there friendship since then.

Later ,got to run

[xplasma]

I study sword at the Bushikai Hombu Dojo. My alabama friend is a bit off on the system.

Our school trains in 4 main Ryu-Ha.

Takagi Yoshin Ryu (Kukushiden)
Asayama Ichiden Ryu
Gyokko Ryu
Koto Ryu

As for they other Ryu-Ha he mentioned. You are correct in assuming our orgin from the x-kans. Actually the Genbukan, our Ryu-Ha licensing through Tanemura Soke. Therefore do some Shinden Fudo Ryu and Togakure Ryu.

Our sword is primarily from the Kukishiden along with some Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (our instructor cousin is licensed to teach it).

[xplasma]

Hey Brian

Hatsumi is the Soke that Mr. McGhee always reckcognized. Mr. McGhe is the Kaicho of the Bushikai. from what I understand, Mr. McGhee Made shodan(at least shodan) in the Bujinkan. when Tanemura split from the bujinkan he whent with Tanumura. He finished his training with Tanemura. When Tanemura started coming to the U.S.A. ,Mr. McGhee is who set up his rooms and appointments. In 1989 they had a falling out and Mr. McGhee started the Bushikai. They have mended there friendship since then.

Later ,got to run


This is wrong in every way. I'll see McGee Sensei tonight, probably have a good laugh at your expense.