What dan level should be running a dojo?

[stanley neptune]

Folks,

At what dan level should one be considered qualified to run their one school? Is shodan adequate? Nidan? Sandan?Yondan?

I know of some qualified shodans and some sketchy shicidans (well one anyway.)

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks

Stanley Neptune

[P Goldsbury]

Folks,

At what dan level should one be considered qualified to run their one school? Is shodan adequate? Nidan? Sandan?Yondan?

I know of some qualified shodans and some sketchy shicidans (well one anyway.)

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks

Stanley Neptune

Well, in aikido there is no fixed rule, as far as I know. I know of dojos in places like the Russian Federation run by kyu grade students, simply because there is nobody anywhere near of dan rank. It is difficult to tell enthusiastic beginners that they cannot open a dojo until they have a yudansha to teach them. The problem here is quality of training and the maintenance of good standards.

Recognition, however, is another matter and the Aikikai insists that it will not recognize an aikido organization unless the senior instructor is at least 4th dan. Dan ranks are not given or accepted unless the organization is recognized.

Best wishes,

[drizzt777]

I run a training group and I'm only a shodan myself. However I choose to stay under-ranked as it is, because it don't mean nothing to me. I know a few kyu grade students who would make mince-meat outta some yudansha. But that's another story. It all really boils down to the person teaching and their heart....and of course a few politics thrown around as well....lol.

Its all up to you. However I would make sure that even a dan or kyu student had a link to another, better instructor to insure they too are learning as well. Just my 2 cents, for what its worth.

[paradoxbox]

the rank doesn't mean much. personally I like to see no one below 4th dan teaching by themselves at a dojo for pay. anything below that and they generally should have another instructor there that teaches them as well as the students...there are many exceptions of course.

I reallly don't like seeing 1-2dans running full dojos by themselves, a training group is one thing, that's fine; but a shodan or nidan starting up his own dojo and asking people for 50-100bucks a month to learn from someone who's been training for a year or two isn't all that cool IMO. Not enough experience.

[Blackwood]

but a shodan or nidan starting up his own dojo and asking people for 50-100bucks a month to learn from someone who's been training for a year or two isn't all that cool IMO. Not enough experience.

Training a year or two and a shodan? That's a red flag right there!

I was given permission to open a branch dojo for kids only as an ikkyu. It sort of had to be done to get our foot in the door at a new facility that was opening. I always asked some of the other blackbelts in to assist in testing until I made shodan. But I had already been training for four years and assisted in teaching the kids in the main dojo for a year. And I am required to work out with my sensei on a regular basis.

I asked my sensei what I needed in order to open a school and his reply was 'my permission.' There are some nidans that don't even have his permission to teach class.

[P Miles]

To my knowledge, there are no laws in the USA governing who is qualified to open up a martial arts school.

Certainly there are qualified 1st or 2nd dan who could teach under the supervision of a more experienced instructor.

The dan rank itself is no indication of whether the person is a quality instructor, just of experience in the martial art (assuming it was issued by a reputable authority). In Korea, a 4th dan is required to pass an Instructor Course before a business license to operate a school will be granted. So having the rank alone is insufficient.

Take Care,

Peter Miles

[Rob]

In my style you are expected to start teaching at 1st Kyu. However a requirement to attaining that grade is having done three seperate courses on teaching in addition to your technical training.

[MarkF]

Well, in aikido there is no fixed rule, as far as I know. I know of dojos in places like the Russian Federation run by kyu grade students, simply because there is nobody anywhere near of dan rank. It is difficult to tell enthusiastic beginners that they cannot open a dojo until they have a yudansha to teach them. The problem here is quality of training and the maintenance of good standards.

Recognition, however, is another matter and the Aikikai insists that it will not recognize an aikido organization unless the senior instructor is at least 4th dan. Dan ranks are not given or accepted unless the organization is recognized.

Best wishes,


I quote the professor here because in Kodokan Judo, things are basically the same though there are precise rules governing the ones who want to open a dojo to start teaching on their own, and where they will be THE instructor, but with every rule there is an exception to be found. To find more concerning the rules at the Kodokan Judo Intitute (the Osaka Kodokan is a branch of the main dojo in Tokyo), try a search at the Kodokan web site. (http://www.kodokan.org) The rules for teaching may be there but the general rules for advancement definitely are there as well as exceptions to the rules.

Generally, rules are few as to teaching or helping to teach, but the minimum grade is 3-dan, it is the time in training that is important, so a minimum of ten years before you even think of teaching is probably a good start. Do not count those years before the age of 16. In my system, grading is slow. 6-eight years to shodan is the norm, if you begun after age sixteen. The years before sixteen are generally counted only for mudanshs levels, though again, there are exceptions.

Teaching is more of a responsibility than you may believe, but there is no value in opening a dojo without serious experience. Grade his little to do with it, but minimums are set for a reason. Everyone sees themselves teaching, bt few are truly good at it. If you can do all the kata in your style perfectly without thinking about it, then you may be ready to begin training to be a teacher. This means you will put in more time at the dojo. Again, in Kodokan Judo, training is its own reward. Teaching is not for those who want to stand in front of the class and be sensei and have the students hang on your every word while you feel superior important. Keep the wordsto a minimum, though there is nothing wrong with a group discussion. Good therapy for the teacher and student.;)


Mark

[gendzwil]

Ranks aren't directly comparable between different martial arts or even in different situations. A judo shodan in Canada is typically 8 years or so. However, if you started as a kid and get shodan in your late teens, are you as qualified to teach as an adult who gets shodan at 30? Is that the same shodan? I don't think so - just speaking from experience, adults are learning much more within their federation-mandated waiting periods than the kids are. Which is why I disagree with the way Judo Canada does things but that's another thread. Judo Canada requires at least shodan and a level 2 NCCP coaching certificate, which is a thing required due to government funding.

Anyhoo, in Kendo where I'm a little more qualified to comment, we don't regard anyone as instructor level until yondan, which would be a minimum of 8 years and at least 21 years old. Canadian Kendo Federation requires that the head instructor of a dojo be at least godan, but allows for that godan to be an out of town advisor. Other federations have similar rules. So we have cases of people with shodan or nidan leading regular practice, and then bringing in the real sensei from time to time to keep them on track. Or at least, that's what they're supposed to do. A kendo shodan is about 2 years experience and unqualified to teach without supervision. However, having one lead practice is better than no club at all, and many good clubs have been kick-started in this fashion.

[bydand]

The dan rank itself is no indication of whether the person is a quality instructor, just of experience in the martial art (assuming it was issued by a reputable authority)

True for the most part, but it all depends on the person. I know someone who just tested for his Nidan, he has had his Shodan for the last 7 years and just never bothered testing for anything higher. He continued training during the whole time at least twice a week and loved going to other schools and thumping the 3rd and 4th BB's during training. When he finally opened his own school, he decided that he should start testing for the ranks he has trained for all these years. (There is another school close that he still trains with a very, very qualified 5th and can turn to if any questions arise.) So 99% of the time I would have to agree, but it's that other 1% that will fool you with their depth and breadth of knowledge in their art. I learned long ago to judge an instructor by their knowledge, teaching style, and ability to convey that knowledge to their students; over just what belt they tied on before class.

This is just my humble 2 cents tossed into the discussion, but I would have no problem training under a 1st degree that knew his stuff instead of a 4th or 5th that was "OK."

[P Miles]

True for the most part, but it all depends on the person. .....So 99% of the time I would have to agree, but it's that other 1% that will fool you with their depth and breadth of knowledge in their art. I learned long ago to judge an instructor by their knowledge, teaching style, and ability to convey that knowledge to their students; over just what belt they tied on before class.

This is just my humble 2 cents tossed into the discussion, but I would have no problem training under a 1st degree that knew his stuff instead of a 4th or 5th that was "OK."

I think we agree that the rank is not indicative of teaching ability. That includes high ranks who may be technically proficient but unable to convey their knowledge to others.

Unfortunately, the general public associates high rank with teaching ability. Also, a beginner may not know the difference between good technique or poor technique or who is a good instructor and who is a poser....I think I'll introduce as my first exhibit the Bad Budo threads. :)

Peter Miles

[drizzt777]

Another thing I can add is that in regards to me running a training group of my own, is that I do train with other instructors on a fairly regular basis, and I'm (to my knowledge) the only practitioner in my area. The next closest dojo is over an hour away in Chattanooga, and another in Pulaski over 2 hours away.

I guess it all depends on the circumstances. I'll tell you now, if there was someone more qualified than me in the immediate area, I'd go train with them in a heartbeat, I fully believe in in creasing one's knowledge as there is no such thing as stopping the learning process in my opinion.

[MarkF]

Ranks aren't directly comparable between different martial arts or even in different situations. A judo shodan in Canada is typically 8 years or so. However, if you started as a kid and get shodan in your late teens, are you as qualified to teach as an adult who gets shodan at 30? Is that the same shodan? I don't think so - just speaking from experience, adults are learning much more within their federation-mandated waiting periods than the kids are. Which is why I disagree with the way Judo Canada does things but that's another thread. Judo Canada requires at least shodan and a level 2 NCCP coaching certificate, which is a thing required due to government funding.

Anyhoo, in Kendo where I'm a little more qualified to comment, we don't regard anyone as instructor level until yondan, which would be a minimum of 8 years and at least 21 years old. Canadian Kendo Federation requires that the head instructor of a dojo be at least godan, but allows for that godan to be an out of town advisor. Other federations have similar rules. So we have cases of people with shodan or nidan leading regular practice, and then bringing in the real sensei from time to time to keep them on track. Or at least, that's what they're supposed to do. A kendo shodan is about 2 years experience and unqualified to teach without supervision. However, having one lead practice is better than no club at all, and many good clubs have been kick-started in this fashion.


Hi, Neil,

That is the primarly reason for mentioning grades. In the US, there is no goverment funding or recognition (unless you call the the AAU or YMCA/YMHA governing bodies. Even if they were, neither makes rules as to sanctioning of grades. Only judo bodies do that. I realize it doesn't cross styles, but many have, at the very least, gone through the judo or kendo grades which implies a lot of experience. I do know sandan with more than twenty years in as an adult, not to discount what they learned as a junior, they are still juniors and learn them as such.

There is an even a wider, longer hop, skip and jump up the mountain in the US, and I dare say all of North America, and to include the Pan-American Judo Association. Things are just not that different from either area.

I realize that even when stating one must have a sandan to teach or open one's own that this includes teaching experience. In my early days (say, at age twelve to 17 didn't mean too much as I could not be graded to shodan), my tournament success did mean something but just winning some contests did not make one eligible to teach, to be graded to black belt (though one may have a few at a junior level national event which generally those starting at age of six and maximum is nineteen). At those latter years as a junior, one may be graded to shodan, but this must be looked at by some form of age minimum.

That said, the first post war II rules on age minimums just to begin study of judo (with the forming of the Amateur Judo Association in 1949 though that year is in some dispute, but there definitely was such an organization). This minimum was age 21. It was probably the mid-1950s when it was dropped to age twenty, they to age eighteen, and through today where the AJA changed names a couple of times, to Judo Black Belt Federation, then, in 1969 (I believe) to the United States Judo Federation which was judo in the US for some time until the USJA (previously the Armed Forced Judo Associaton) wanted in so they sued to do so. Of course, why wouldn't they be allowed to hold competitive matches, teach and be taught and grade to certain level. Most do understand that the USJA does or did grade students a bit differently and shodan was achieveable with less training time.

But teaching, never really has changed, though some minor things were changed, the sandan minimum was based more in time in training than the grade. The grade was simply used as a guiding line to how much time in, what you should have or should be, if you are going to be graded to that level. In the West, this is far longer than, say, in Japan. Anything up to godan in Japan was something one received for any number or reasons, being the senior student (as in age) is one of them. It is NOT correct to refer to any dan level instructor as sensei if the student is ten years his/her senior, so this is a much shorter period. After that, it is anyone's guess and is usually discussed by theKodokan Committee or the committee at your dojo. In the US there are no such committees but if you are 80 years old and have been involved, particularly in an area of development, you shouold be graded higher, ie, even skipping a dan grade or two which happens all the time in Japan. Reason must back this up.

I was not only teaching at age fifteen, I was taking classes on a regular schedule by sixteen, but I was not graded to shodan until around eight or nine years of participation. If I had started at adult or near adult age, other factors would have come into play, but it is like it is.

While one may open his own dojo before sandan level, there most be a supervising instructor who will be (and I do not know if this was official but it seemed to go with the territory) of godan if one is sandan, rokudan = yondan, etc., but the absolute minimum of sandan. Everything is like anything else. Exceptions do exist and sometimes not applied in a timely manner. For example, why did Kaname (Kenny) Kuniyuki have to wait until he was 92 yrs. old to be graded to 9-dan, or why did it take Keiko Fukuda-sense until her 9th decade to be graded to same? Some things just to dot seem to make sense. It makes sense if the rule for grading a student to shodan, for example, if exists the other rule stating one must be at least two grades above this.


But I agreed with Peter because there are at least as many exceptions as there are rules.

I am giving what I know about the only sanctioning body of judo I know and from what I've seen, it is getting easier. The first teachers of judo in the US, in the 1900s and 1910s were generally 1 and 2-dan, today would probably be graded higher. But then Kenny Kniyuki was graded to sandan while he lived in Seattle, Washington by Jigoro Kano but went to Japan for the official ceremony and receive his license along with two or three others. No one really knows why or how Kano made these decisions, but he graded Mitsuyo Maeda (Conde Coma) to forth then fifth-dan while Maeda was still in Brazil and surrounding areas. So was Kano, most do only follow the rules when forced to use them, it would seem. It would seem from the last nearly forty-three years that the rule covering teaching, certifying officials have been around for a while now.


Or the exceptions have, anyway.


Regards,

Mark

[gendzwil]

I've always found that good technical skills don't necessarily mean good teaching skills, they're a seperate animal. Like anything else, they get better with practice.

As an aside, this almost holy reverence the judo community (at least locally) has for the "black belt" is a little disconcerting after being in kendo. It's almost like all the following dan are irrelevant as soon as you're entitled to wear that black piece of cloth. Kendo shodan is a beginner's rank. The kendo equivalent is maybe sandan or yondan, but even those ranks provoke a mostly "so what"? reaction. People don't really regard you as any sort of qualified instructor until rokudan.

[joe yang]

My GM requires all black belts to take a hand a at running every aspect of his school to some degree. Initially it is supervised. At some point you start working unsupervised on a limited basis. He makes it clear you will make mistakes, which at some level may hurt what is also his business, but that is how you learn. If it costs him a student occasionally, and it has, he feels he has a special obligation to his black belts. More correctly, he feels he has an obligation to his master, which he can never repay, except to offer his students the same opportunities he was given. Learning to coach, market and deliver a quality product are all part of that obligation.

That said, in over twenty years only two students ever asked for and recieved permission to open schools. They are making modest livings with McDojos. Two students went renegade, crashed and burned in garage dojos. One student was really pushed to take over a failing school, financial backing, help negotiating a deal, everything. He is pretty succesfull.

Other students have been asked if they were interested in schools, no takers, we still have a lot to learn. One student is way past ready to open a school, fortunately he is happy to take the lions share of training our black belts and stay with us.

Rank, 3rd dan minimum and that would have to be under GM's Moo Duk Kwan grading, which he never gave up. Kukkiwon would require a 4th dan. I hear they may up it to 5th dan. But Kukkiwon is well, interesting.

[ScottUK]

At what dan level should one be considered qualified to run their one school? Is shodan adequate? Nidan? Sandan?Yondan? Not all schools use the dan-i system.

To agree with others - I understand that to teach (or even assist) you need the say-so of your instructor. There are good low-grades out there and average high-grades. Grade maketh not the man or woman, but ability and experience.

Only your own sensei should judge who and when.

[P Goldsbury]

This is just my humble 2 cents tossed into the discussion, but I would have no problem training under a 1st degree that knew his stuff instead of a 4th or 5th that was "OK."

Hello Mr Gordon,

I mssed it the first time, but I believe you are new here.

Please sign all your post with your full name. You undertook to do this when you became a member of E-Budo.

Finally, welcome to E-Budo.

Best wishes,

[mews]

There are actually three different skill sets here -

Technical knowledge of the art.
Ability to teach / generally deal with people.
Ability to do the other stuff - collect dues, organize things, do required paperwork, etc.

people think having the first is what counts - but you need the other two if you are running a club in a Y or something, or even more if you are running a free-standing class/ dojo.

I've seen really brilliant martial artists not do so well because they didn't pay attention to the 2nd and [especially] 3rd items on the list.

mews

[bydand]

Peter,

I forgot when I posted that I didn't have my sig. set up. sorry, I fixed that today and from now on should be all set.

[joe yang]

Margaret nailed it. Permission from my GM to open a school means he has faith in you to cover all three, technical knowledge, coaching and business skills. He gives us the opportunity to learn all three skill sets in his school. A lot of talented students still believe they have what it takes to run a school because they are successful competitors and they are charismatic. Unfortunately they don't pay attention to coaching and business skills. When GM tells them they aren't ready to open a school they convince themselves GM doesn't want the competition. When they open schools anyway they invariably fail. Then it is always GM's fault too. LOL

[MarkF]

Well, just to settle my point was to have the necessary skills to teach. Someone mentioned what they were, but Judo is more of an orgnizational system, and in fact, it can be said to be a modern Iemoto system without using the term.

There is one school, everything else is a branch. Time in, experience, and knowledge of how to teach is at the base of becoming a teacher. I used to propose some kind of school to train a person how to teach, not judo or anything else, but how to teach, the subject matters not. People always seemed to dig up something I was not proposing and that was a legal/political organization when it would cover dealing with juniors, with beginning senior students, to knowing CPR and other kinds of first aid, with a certification, something like student teachers do in today's public schools.


Anyway, There are two way of being a teachers. Your teacher gives permission or you learn as you go. Either way, you are going to need experience. Sometimes, the best are the worst.


Mark

[dojo]

I don't know about a fixed rule. We have to be 1 dan at least. We are granted the shodan after 7-10 years of training, so it's balanced I think

[Jeff Cook]

It's not unusual to see a blue belt running a BJJ study group. But these non-black belt folks who run the BJJ classes have a black belt that they receive training and mentoring under on a regular basis. It seems to work well in the BJJ world.

Jeff Cook

[powerof0ne]

It's not unusual to see a blue belt running a BJJ study group. But these non-black belt folks who run the BJJ classes have a black belt that they receive training and mentoring under on a regular basis. It seems to work well in the BJJ world.

Jeff Cook

You're right, I receive most of my training from a non-black belt in bjj now but he still trains under a black belt 4-6 days a week. For me, right now it works out perfectly because I still have a lot I can improve on in bjj. The only thing I should add, at least where I live a blue belt teaching is becoming more and more rare. It's usually a purple or a brown, I think I only know of one or two places that have a blue belt teaching....however, I know of a bjj brown belt that should really only be a blue belt(different story).

[Nadelman]

“If your karate skill is not good, you do not deserve to have a black belt, if you are good, you do not need a black belt to decorate yourselves”.

Chojun Miyagi, Founder of Goju-Ryu - as quoted by An'ichi Sensei

[Kikbaq]

Being a teacher in a small group can get you good training partners who simply can't commit to sometimes monstrous fees, dues, and generally the type of financial commitment that keep people from learning to defend themselves and their family. So in my position of being 10 hours drive from my teacher, and being the only Shodan in my area at this time, it seems to me that the least I can do is offer to share what I can with likeminded people.
And mind you, my teacher suggested that I (as well as the rest of his students up here) continue training as a group after he moved to another state--long before he tested me for Shodan. I like that we train as a collective under our Shidoshi, I simply do my best to act as a sempai. I know its my responsibility to be in contact with him, also to attend quality seminars from folks who get regular training in Japan. This is the best I can do until I can make the financial commitments needed to train in Japan myself.

Like drizzt, I am here to do what I can.

[Kikbaq]

I just realized how much of what I wrote looked kind of like an adevertisement for the group here...I am sorry for that, back on track, its my opinion, like that of many others that for a person to teach a martial art for money, its nice to see black around their waist. At least a shodan, hopefully one with at least 4-5 years of training with supervision by a qualified senior instructor. I think it is further important that if one is teaching a particular "brand" or style under the auspice of a trademarked organization that the teacher needs to play by the organization's rules.

In a sense, this usually works to help advertise, as well as promote a positive image for a dojo or group. When a person sees that the dojo or group is an official part of a very large and successful organization, it will give them more assurance that they are being well taken care of.

[Juan Perez]

When I trained in karatedo, the rule was sandan in order to run a dojo. That was like 18 years ago. I keep in touch with my then-instructor and it has not changed. It's tough, however, because as hard as it is to rank in that system, you won't get a lot of dojos this way. I think now they have like four dojo. There were two when I was with them.

[Dan Keding]

Neighbors,

I think that the ability to open a school should be a matter discussed between the student who wants to open the dojo and his long time teacher.
The teacher/mentor should be the one who has the knowledge and the ability to judge the proficiency, teaching ability and maturity of the candidate. Of course that's in a perfect world. :)

As far as teaching in the dojo you train in I think that again the decision resides with the head of the dojo. There's a great deal of difference between a man or woman in their forties or fifties that have taught school for their entire adult life and a twenty year old who just got their shodan.
The twenty year old might be a better practitioner and more athletic but probably is not as good a teacher. Besides knowledge of the art, teaching needs maturity, patience and the ability to adapt to the different personalities and learning skills of each student.

[Kikbaq]

I wholeheartedly agree, even now at 25 I can admit my mind is in all sorts of places. If I could get away with just being a student I probably would. At this point in my life it would be difficult to make a weekly or even bi-weekly commute of 1,000 miles round trip to train, so naturally I will train here whenever I can. I also have no desire at this point to run a dojo, so a fairly informal training group is quite within my means.

My goal of receiving a Masters in Secondary Education is still quite far away from my grasp, so it will probably put me in my 30s before I start teaching Highschool History. I think that my youth, attitude, and athleticism may actually be strong allies in removing the boredom of this subject. Who knows---out of all my history teachers, one of them kept my attention and focus. There were many that put me to sleep with sheer boredom.

[Victor Smith]

The standards I use for instructor qualification have nothing to do with dan level. These are only minimum qualification standards to be consiered an instructor.

1. At least 15 continious years training with one instructor.
2. An interest to share the art.
3. Particiaption in an instructor mentoring program where they have to follow one group of students the entire way from program entrance to sho dan examination.

There are no exceptions to these standards. Even a dan in our system who joined the program and wanted to become an instructor has to follow the same standards, such as 15 continious years training in our group.

Each group has a unique sigature style of movement dynamics that underlies it's existence. Unless one truly has experienced it, and been exposed to how it is propogated in new students at all levels, they simply aren't qualified to instruct.

This is different from standing before a group teaching, it's instead having the knowledge to guide and share a very specific training experience.

But as I stated, these are simply the minimum qualification standards. The instrutors I've trained have a similar set of mind on this approach value.

[Kikbaq]

I think your standards are great, but I think that at this point--in this day in age that you will only find handfulls of people from handfulls of arts that actually apply to these standards. And I am more than willing to bet that to apply to these standards, you would have to commit to staying in the same location on a regular basis until your 15 years were up.

That means if you seek to be an instructor in "art a" you are willing to get stuck working at Wal-Mart and having low quality of wages and life, provided its the only place in your town that needs employees, just to keep training in "art a" under "A sensei", before you can teach.

Most people are conditioned to want a high quality of life, and if this means moving away from their teacher to a place where they can make more money and live a higher quality of life, that they simply need to turn back the clock and start the 15 years over with a new teacher in a new place? Whats their ultimatum? Is it that they must start over or give up the idea of teaching others?

I know this has to sound extreme, but I would like to know how my argument might apply to your standards of minimum qualifications.

[Victor Smith]

Nope, no Walmart folks, and I have nothing against any career, whether for Walmart or otherwise.

Yes my standards do require one to stay in the area and keep training.

My youth students all leave after high school, no matter how accomplished they have become. That is the nature of maturing.

My adults are mostly individuals in skilled professions and make their living in their work, just as I do. I don't teach commercially (actually I teach for free) nor do the instructors I've developed, for they see the value in following a our path.

The issue of course is that personal study is the real key, and teaching before your training has reached a significent level doesn't help one's development.

I've seen many who start teaching too early and discontinue higher training, focusing on making their programs cash revenue more important.

The end result is generation after generation of instructor is less competent.

But then perhaps I have a very different standard what personal development must work towards.

Most dan students are in long term training for their own purposes, not to become instructors. Those who want to share with a larger piece of the art are willing to undergo the long term sacrifice that becoming an instructor involves.

I offer no path for quick reward.

pleasantly,

[Adam Westphal]

Stanley, why did you ask the question? I think you'll find from these responses that the answer is largely dependent on the system.

Are you asking because you're interested in teaching?
Or you're questioning someone else's credentials to teach?

[OkiGoshukan]

Hi Stanley,
First, I'm new to this forum, so I'll start with an introduction.
I am Garry Parker, I own and operate a small dojo in Georgia, I received much of my training and instruction while stationed in Okinawa, and living in Okinawa after my discharge.
I have read most of the replies and everyone has different yet valid points.
Ultimately, the decision is left to the teacher. You must remember that different styles/associations/teachers etc. have different standards for rank advancement. A shodan in ATA tkd will probably not be equal to a shodan in Uechi-ryu simply due to the variance in standards.
IMHO, the martial arts world suffers from an epidemic of 'paper tigers' or unqualified rank-holders, however-this is not the forum for this discussion.
In that vein, a qualified teacher will recognize the necessary qualities in his student to be a good teacher.
I began training in 1984, and was asked by my teacher to begin teaching in 1998, I opened my first dojo in 1999 as a nidan. To me, that was a tremendous amount of trust from my teacher, as he was still in Okinawa and not physically present to check in on me. It is also a tremendous responsibility to be THE ambassador for your teacher and style. Every action taken by the student- good or bad- reflects on the teacher.
This is only my viewpoint, and I realize that your milage may vary.

Sincerely,
Garry Parker
Okinawa Goshukan-Ryu
Columbus Dojo

Folks,

At what dan level should one be considered qualified to run their one school? Is shodan adequate? Nidan? Sandan?Yondan?

I know of some qualified shodans and some sketchy shicidans (well one anyway.)

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks

Stanley Neptune

[Katsu!]

I reallly don't like seeing 1-2dans running full dojos by themselves, a training group is one thing, that's fine; but a shodan or nidan starting up his own dojo and asking people for 50-100bucks a month to learn from someone who's been training for a year or two isn't all that cool IMO. Not enough experience.

I definatelly agree.

Tell me where can you get a shodan in 1 or 2 years? Thats terrible!


Regards,

Marko Miletic

[Anders Pettersson]

Tell me where can you get a shodan in 1 or 2 years? Thats terrible!
In Japan.

/Anders

[Katsu!]

That would be through training every day more or less?

M.Miletic

[Anders Pettersson]

That would be through training every day more or less?
No, not really. Ordinary training three times a week could probably get you easily to shodan in less than two years in many Japanese budo.

/Anders

[Kikbaq]

I believe that this pertains to many (not all) karate-do systems. My uncle got his black belt (I have to assume shodan) in Karate in about a year when he was stationed in Japan in the 60s. He said weekends and maybe an afternoon during the week was dedicated to indoor and outdoor practice. In his case it doesnt matter, because he never ran a dojo, just taught a few relatives and friends a little here and there. But he trained 3 days a week for decades after returning to the states.

I dont know that his year of Japanese training, or his rank qualified him as an ideal dojo-cho. I happen to think that after about 10 years of his solo routines and makiwara training, he had created in him something valuable to spread to others.

I am honestly not too sure on how things were looked at in terms of rank and legitimacy in times where there may not have been as many organizations of official establishments. Perceptions have changed a great deal world wide regarding martial arts instruction. I find it very cool that there are so many folks posting on the subject to shed light on where people stand. I think it has been established that a student will expect their teacher to have a moderate amount of experience in the art (year or years in some, decades in others--depending on the art or organization) and ultimately a desire to teach.

Ultimately, as a student... We all must make the choice of what we spend our money and our time on. If you think that an instructor is under qualified, dont attend his or her class. Unfortunately, from a consumers point of view, there is no one-size-fits-all mold for martial arts instructors to fit into. Everybody has different standards, as does every organization, as does every art. Be objective in your quest to learn or settle for whatever, its your money and your lives.

As there is no ultimate martial art, you should focus on what you can get from an art that you fancy. In this i mean how you benefit from the training, not necessarily anything tangible.

Anyhow, just thought I'd throw that out there.

[rwfowler]

Rank and Teaching are two separate issues. Most associations offer teaching titles separate. High Rank and titles are more often given out of polotics. Of course most high ranking individual will disagree. In my opinion rank is a chain of command within ones own organization. Unless the head of an organization is familar with you, it is unlikely that you will be accepted on face value of a certificate. We have all seen people with certificates from reputable organizations that do not have very high level of skills. And the same goes for independents. But we have seen great teachers and practioners from both.

3 of the most wanted instructors are Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, and Mike Stone. Non of which accepted ranks higher that 1st dan until here in recent history. All three earned dan ranks in Okinawa in less that 1yr. If you do not think they are good practioners, go to a siminar. They will be glad to get in the ring with you. :~)

[Josh Reyer]

No, not really. Ordinary training three times a week could probably get you easily to shodan in less than two years in many Japanese budo.

/Anders

Heck, twice a week would probably be enough. There are not a great many dojo in Japan that are open more than twice a week.

Zero to shodan at the aikido Hombu Dojo (Aikikai) is 300 practice days. At three days a week (and Hombu Dojo is open everyday), that's 100 weeks. One year and 11 months.

[Kikbaq]

In regards to teaching and rank, rfowler is absolutely correct that one of these details doesnt necessarily begat the other.

I know that in the Bujinkan: if our teacher promotes us to a dan rank, he or she may also grant us the title of Shidoshi-ho (assistant or junior teacher), they also reserve the right of not granting us this title. In order for this title to mean anything we have to observe the policies established for this gift and responsibility by securing each year a Bujinkan Shidoshi-kai card. For us to promote rank in the Bujinkan our students too have an annual membership obligation to fulfil. Also as Shidoshi-ho we also answer to and are guided by a Shidoshi of Godan rank or higher.

I would imagine however that there are many folks ranked 1st through 4th dan out there that arent given the Shidoshi-ho title. I think in any art it is that person in question's teacher that has the power to permit that person the priviledge of teaching, just as they must have the sole responsibity of not permitting it and/or stopping it when it shouldn't be done.

[Ed_morris]

I agree with Victor's standards but would qualify it with adding the assumption of it being part-time study. (although I'd break it down to 10 years continuous training + 5 year continuous training as mentor).


Then there is the reality that not all are geered for teaching the Art they claim. I think the mainstream of many that seek to teach and run a dojo have other things in mind than propegating their Art. Reasons ranging from providing 'community service' as an activity for health, making money, Ego status setting or blends of all.

While people may be competant coaches, franchise attendants or journey businessmen ...that doesn't speak to the subjective qualifications of propegating Art.

Legally, commercial dojos are considered a place of business....and literally anyone can open a business. How they choose to 'legitimize' or 'qualify' themselves becomes a marketing decision - not subject to the qualifications of opening that business.