MSR: Koryu or not - revisited

[Tim Mailloux]

I ran across this old thread the other day thanks to a response to a non-related thread over on sword forum.com. Over the years on this forum and a few others, one of the most commonly debates topics among the Eishin Ryu Iai crowd (MJER & MSR) is weather or not MSR is Koryu or not. The most common argument against MSR being Koryu, seems to revolve from the notion that since Nakayama Hakudo renamed and reorganized his line of Eishin Ryu (Shimomura-ha) to what we now call Muso Shinden Ryu. That he essentially created a new gendai art in the process and left the Shimamura line to die out. The thread linked below refers to documented proof that the Shimomura-ha line of Eishin Ryu was also referred to as “Muso Shinden Hayashizaki Ryu Battojutsu Heiho” well before Nakayama Hakudo’s time.

So did Nakayama Hakudo really create a new art, or did he simply shorten an already accepted name for the style and reorganize the curriculum?

Very similar to what Oe’ sensei did with his line of Eishin Ryu (Tanimura-ha) by renaming it MJER and re-organizing it as well.

The entire thread below is very good. But for the sake of this topic I would read any posts by Earl Hartman & Guy Powers first.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3055&highlight=Earl+Hartman

Tim

[Charles Mahan]

Did Hakudo-sensei inherit Shimomura-ha? By that I do not mean Kongen no Maki. Did he inherit not just the techniques, but the organization?

[Tim Mailloux]

Did Hakudo-sensei inherit Shimomura-ha? By that I do not mean Kongen no Maki. Did he inherit not just the techniques, but the organization?

Good question. In all the sources I have ever seen he is listed as either the 16th or 18th headmaster of the Shimorura-ha line. His name is also inscribed as the 16th headmaster of the Shimamura-ha line at Hayashizaki Iai Shrine. As far as I know, most people agree that he did inhearit the orginazation and was the official headmaster of the Shimomura-ha line. The argument against MSR being koryu that I always seen is that Nakayama S. just let the Shimomura-ha fade away while he went off and created MSR. Thus making MSR a gendai art based on a koryu art. The document sighted by Guy Powers gives credit to the idea that he didn't create MSR from the Shimomura-ha. He just decided to call the ryu by one of it's other names that was established before his time as head master. The fact that he reorginized the ryu is irrelevant. He was the headmaster and it was within jis right to do so just as Oe sensei had done with MJER. The fact that both MJER and MSR were both reorganized in very similar fashions is also very intresting

[Douglas Wylie]

Ohh, sweet mother of all that is good and holy, not again.

[Charles Mahan]

Thanks Tim,

So, Oe-sensei was the headmaster of Shimomura-ha and then began studying Tanimura-ha eventually becoming headmaster of that. He then reorganizes and renames the style MJER. So did he officially step aside as the head of Shimomura-ha? Who was his immediate successor in Shimomura-ha? How did Nakamura-sensei, who was not from Tosa, come to inherit the Shimomura-ha? That strikes me as odd. I'm not trying to dispute you Tim. History is not my strong suit. I just have questions.

[Sanppa75]

Hello every one,

and greetings from Finland. We have allmost summer in here and it´s.....ssnowing!!! :D

Okay, I´ll get to the point. If I rightly remember, this is one topic we have been talking allready before.... :) but let´s rock.


Is it possible that even those great masters (Oe Masamichi & Nakayama Hakudo + all other great names in that time) had some "personal" problems with each other..? So everyone of them(some more than other) wrote their history and choose their "top" students and followers also from political and economical point of view..?


So maybe the most skillful and capable student was not always chosen.


That happens everyday nowadays.

Example: One really promising and skillful studend came in to swordschool, but he was from the wrong clan, his experience in art of sword was from "wrong" school and his greatgrandfather fought in a battle agaist this new schools headmasters greatgrandfather onehundred years ago....
This might not be so unthinkable example as it might sound first...

Well, this writing has nothing more to do with MSR and MJER than it has with all other KORYU ( ;) ) sword schools.

And sorry my bad english...I´ll transform to :ninja: and vanishhhh......

[Bruce Mitchell]

I ran across this old thread the other day thanks to a response to a non-related thread over on sword forum.com. Over the years on this forum and a few others, one of the most commonly debates topics among the Eishin Ryu Iai crowd (MJER & MSR) is weather or not MSR is Koryu or not. The most common argument against MSR being Koryu, seems to revolve from the notion that since Nakayama Hakudo renamed and reorganized his line of Eishin Ryu (Shimomura-ha) to what we now call Muso Shinden Ryu. That he essentially created a new gendai art in the process and left the Shimamura line to die out. The thread linked below refers to documented proof that the Shimomura-ha line of Eishin Ryu was also referred to as “Muso Shinden Hayashizaki Ryu Battojutsu Heiho” well before Nakayama Hakudo’s time.

So did Nakayama Hakudo really create a new art, or did he simply shorten an already accepted name for the style and reorganize the curriculum?

Very similar to what Oe’ sensei did with his line of Eishin Ryu (Tanimura-ha) by renaming it MJER and re-organizing it as well.

The entire thread below is very good. But for the sake of this topic I would read any posts by Earl Hartman & Guy Powers first.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3055&highlight=Earl+Hartman

Tim

Hi Tim,
How are you defining koryu? The big thing that I look for is recognition from one of the big houses in Japan, namely the Nippon Kobudo Shinkoka and the Nippon Kobudo Kyokai. MJER and MSR can argue between each other all they want. It is external, not internal recognition that sets a system apart as koryu. So I would ask you; Do you know if MSR is recognized by either the Nippon Kobudo Shinkokai or the Nippon Kobudo Kyokai as koryu?

Whether the techniques have derivated from their koryu origins is the question that can be debated here, but to the best of my knowledge, nobody who post at E-budo has the authority to designate the historical standing of an art.

I agree with you that the headmasters of a ryu can pretty much do what they want with it, but, I would also posit that making a name change is a signifigant, deliberate action, made by a headmaster to designate that the art has been changed (even if that change is mainly philosophical, not technical). Just my two cents.

[George Kohler]

koryu. So I would ask you; Do you know if MSR is recognized by either the Nippon Kobudo Shinkokai or the Nippon Kobudo Kyokai as koryu?

I don't know if the two organizations consider it koryu, but Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai does have several groups that represent MSR.

[Ron Beaubien]

Hello,

So I would ask you; Do you know if MSR is recognized by either the Nippon Kobudo Shinkokai or the Nippon Kobudo Kyokai as koryu?There are three different groups of Muso Shinden-ryu practitioners represented in the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai by three different individuals: Mr. Takahashi Tsuguhide of Tokyo, Mr. Kaneda Masao of Tokyo, and Mr. Saito Yoshikichi of Tokyo.

There apparently isn't any one representing Muso Shinden-ryu in the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. That reason is unclear to me.

For more details see the following thread:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61198

Specifically you should look at the message I posted on January 9th, 2006 and there is also a little information on the subject in another message I posted on January 7th of the same thread.

I hope that helps.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

[Bruce Mitchell]

Hello,

There are three different groups of Muso Shinden-ryu practitioners represented in the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai by three different individuals: Mr. Takahashi Tsuguhide of Tokyo, Mr. Kaneda Masao of Tokyo, and Mr. Saito Yoshikichi of Tokyo.

As far as I am concerned this answers Tim's question. If someone were to ask me now if MSR is koryu I would say "Yes.".

There apparently isn't any one representing Muso Shinden-ryu in the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. That reason is unclear to me.


Could this be because MSR does not have a single Soke?

[Ron Beaubien]

Hello,

As far as I am concerned this answers Tim's question. If someone were to ask me now if MSR is koryu I would say "Yes."However, it isn't that simple. Just because Muso Shinden-ryu is represented in the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai, doesn't necessarily mean that it is a koryu school in the strictest sense of the word. I just cut and pasted the previous answer of mine from the original thread on the other forum. It was taken out of the original context and that should be taken into consideration. The actual situation is not so clear.

I also wrote the following on the same thread regarding the matter to put it in perspective:

"However, we also have to remember that some schools like Muso Shinden-ryu, Toyama-ryu, Daito-ryu, and certainly Aikido do not have lineages that go directly back to (or haven't been proven as going back to) the Edo period. Still all four of those schools are members of the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai, believe it or not. It seems that the requirements for entry were not always so strict and in many cases the instructors representing those traditions were probably outstanding individuals in their own right, well-liked by others, and so were allowed to join the Shinkokai. Things are not always black and white in Japan, but are instead shades of gray, and decisions are often made on a 'case by case' basis."

What is clear is that Nakayama Hakudo combined two older but related traditions (Omori-ryu and Hasegawa Eishin-ryu). Although clearly of deep roots, his creation still was a modern synthesis. He also chose to give the art a new name, which obviously means that he wanted to set it apart from what others had been doing previously.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

[Bruce Mitchell]

Thank you for the reply Ron,
I went over to Sword forum and read the post there in their entirety, and you are right, it is a very complicated situation. But as a person with no vested interest in having a tilt at this particular windwill, I still feel comfortable saying that it's acceptence by the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai is good enough for me (not that my opinion matters to anyone except me :) ).

I think it is more important to recognize that inclusion in an organization is not in itself proof of legitimacy.

[renfield_kuroda]

I still feel comfortable saying that it's acceptence by the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai is good enough for me
Disclaimer: I have no dog in this race: don't care about SMR nor the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai.

I do know, though, that many "legit" koryu are NOT members of Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai, and some members of Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai are of "questionable" koryu-status.
Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai is one of many organizations, and though it is subject to less than others, it still has it's share of politics, etc.

Take everything with a grain of salt, and remember that here in Japan, the specific, technical definition of "koryu" is a non-issue. In fact, most Japanese in the budo world wonder why we foreigners make sure a big deal out of it.

Regards,

r e n

[100110]

I didn't want to mention it, but that's what I think as well... what difference does it make if something's called 'koryu' or not? This is sort of like fretting over whether someone who stands 5'7" is short or tall... they're 5'7", what more do you need to know? (With apologies to Mr Dawkins)

PS: I understand that this thread is about more than that, and poses interesting questions regarding the history of MSR/MJER lineages. I just don't think it's much use trying to get a "gendai" or "koryu" answer at the end of it.

[Nukitsuke]

I have to agree with Ren. Here in Japan my sensei uses both Musoshinden ryu and koryu interchangeably. He doesn't distinguish between them. I asked him one time what should I call our style, he said MS koryu. So that's what I say. I also think people outside of Japan get a little too worked up about the details, lineage, etc. It's a legitimate school teaching a legitimate style, so that's good enough for me.