recommendation: Teacher disclosure rule modification

[Ed_morris]

question: What assurances do whistleblowers have of protection against retaliation damage?

scenerio: an ex-member of an org tells their side of a story which happens to be negative. since they are in effect making an accusation, they are required to list their current teacher's name. The person who heads the org in question looks up and finds the accuser's current sensei and calls them on the phone or sends mail with a false impression and perhaps outright lies.
The student gets expelled from their current affiliation based on the complaints of the person being criticized.

what protection does e-budo have that this doesn't happen?

here is what I propose: A change to your 'sensei/teacher' disclosure rule. I recommend for both the protection of the person being accussed AND for the protection of the accuser, that the instructor information be PM'd to a mod, which they will then post and have access to in a mods-eyes-only section.

reasonable change in policy? please explain if that isn't a resonable idea.

thanks,
Ed Morris

[Harlan]

Can someone please tell me what my teacher has to do with any post I might make? I mean, if I am making comments, jokes, accusations, or whatever...it reflects on my character... for good or bad.

[Evan London]

Can someone please tell me what my teacher has to do with any post I might make? I mean, if I am making comments, jokes, accusations, or whatever...it reflects on my character... for good or bad.

You have voluntarily chosen your teacher, nobody made you choose them. In doing so you have made a purposeful and conscious decision to not only be their student, but be associated with them and their dojo/organization.

If you act like an !!! in public, people will think your parents are not teaching you how to behave correctly. The same can and is said about a student's behavior and it's reflection on their teacher and organization. What you do and say in a public forum directly impacts people's opinions and feelings about not only you, but your teaccer as well. It is EVERY student's obligation to represent their teacher and organization in the best possible light. Most dojo and organizations I am aware of, including my own, have written and verbal rules stating that bringing disrepute or embarassment on a teacher or organization is grounds for expulsion. I personally tell all my students that their behavior reflects back on me, and if they embarass me in public, they will no longer be welcome at my dojo. Many people have been thrown out of a dojo or organization for improper behavior. This is a major aspect of not only modern Japanese martial arts, but traditionally this is a critical and fundamental part of the Ryu system.

Think about it this was as well. Part of martial arts training is developing self control over your every action. Ask yourself, what is more important, embarassing my teacher and getting kicked out of my dojo, or some fleeting impulse to post a joke/opinion/comment on an internet forum?

Hope that gives you some food for thought.

Ev

[Ed_morris]

I didn't intend for this to be criticism or emotionally driven...just a suggestion. I'm not personally affected either way, but I was thinking of the scenerio I gave as possible and applicable to some.

also, I didn't know the appropriate section to place this, so feel free to move the thread where you think makes sense.

[Harlan]

So...it must work top down as well? YOu study with an A**, or a known philanderer who happens to be quite technically proficient at an art...say Aikido. Is one smeared by that persons character...it somehow diminishes the art that you practice?

Also, there are a lot of training scenarios...and the one you describe...well...it seems rather rare. It basically excludes folks that are not within that fold...from informal Okinawan training to the eclectic MMA.

[Evan London]

So...it must work top down as well? YOu study with an A**, or a known philanderer who happens to be quite technically proficient at an art...say Aikido. Is one smeared by that persons character...it somehow diminishes the art that you practice?

If yuo train with a jerk/crook/psucho, you have the choice to leave, or stay. It is up to you to decide whether being associated with someone with "issues" is worth the training you get.

Also, there are a lot of training scenarios...and the one you describe...well...it seems rather rare. It basically excludes folks that are not within that fold...from informal Okinawan training to the eclectic MMA.

I would disagree with you here. Whether the situation you are in is "formal" as you say, or just training in some guy's basement, I believe you are still obligated to represent that person in a respecful and appropriate manner. Being "in the fold" is completely subjective. It could be defined as mebing a member of an international organization, it could mean being a member of your local McDojo on th corner, or it could be training with somebody who is a friend of yous in their yard. If you don't respect them enough to behave in such a manner that reflects well on them, why bother training with them in the first place? I certainly wouldn't train with someone I did not respect, let alone teach sombody who didn't respect me!
Ev

[Harlan]

I accept your viewpoint...I just see things differently. And what if my sensei was...female? Would that change it at all? I ask because there is already an acknowledgement of female concerns regarding listing one's name. I supposed....that that decision was based on an understanding that some women are leery of the internet...of the predators 'out there'?

Please understand, I am coming at this from a personal security viewpoint.

[Neil Yamamoto]

I disagree with the idea, if you are going to get involved with any discussions of instructors, be willing to say it with full identity disclosed or not at all, at least here on e-budo.

This is John and George's house, and it's pretty clear they want to try and keep people more honest about discussion by using names and making people accountable for their claims online.

If a person's insecurities about what can happen to an affliation are a concern, they can use B-shido and other forums that allow anonymous posting should be used if there is a concern over consequences.

[Harlan]

I understand. Every forum has it's rules. Obey or get out.

On the other hand, periodic self-examination (of those rules and the original reasoning) can be beneficial.

Thanks for the replies.

[Ed_morris]

the head fluffy bunny has spoken!

thanks for reader rabbiting the idea anyway.

-Ed

[MarkF]

There is also the matter of trust amongst the membership. The more information you give about yourself, you will gain that measure of trust and respect.

BTW: I just checked the rules concerning this and it isn't listed so you must be referring to the Bad/Baffling Budo threads?

If you are being truthful about someone with whom you have had a relationship but feel that relationship to have soured due to any reason at all, you should be willing to give truthful evidence of what you feel is a problem. Believe me, there are certain people who have posted here years after a thread dropped off the map, them opened such a thread when it had been buried in the archives.

Ask anyone who knows me. I do not back down and I do know the truth. If your teacher also knows the truth but does not want yout to say anything about X-sensei, then probably s/he too is wrong. Sometimes a disagreement like that says more about your teacher than you realized in the first place and does give pause to rethink your relationship with that teacher.

That said, there is no rule saying you must devuldge your teacher's name unless that teacher is part of the proof you need to start a thread in the first place which I 'spect is in the Baffling budo deparment.

If your teacher said "No one who is a member of this (your) dojo may not train at any other dojo. If you agree with this and do not train anywhere else, that is your choice, but if it isn't, again, this may give you something to thnk on.

Just to state the facts, there is no rule on E-budo stating you must give your teacher's name. If the moderators in the bad/baffling budo threads say otherwise then this is a control measure for those threads to manage the fora there and to take steps to ensure a person making an accusation is making one truthfully and can back it up and not be afraid to do so.

Most people get used to what goes on here and either remain a contributing member and a few have chosen not to. You'll get used to it.


Mark





I

[Harlan]

I think that this is exactly what should be considered.

That said, there is no rule saying you must devuldge your teacher's name unless that teacher is part of the proof you need to start a thread in the first place...

[MarkF]

Sorry, Harlan. I was editing my post while you were posting and may have edited part of it out. If it was part of what you are quoting, I still stand behind it, I was editing for grammar and spelling which rarely works, but I do it anyway and remain hopeful.;)

To explain what I mean: The general, basic rules do not state you must divulge a teacher's name, it is there so a member may give as much information about themselves they feel is comfortable, and it does do wonders as far as trust and returning such information in kind. If you feel that giving a teacher's name is not something you cannot do, fine. I believe you were referring to the Bad/Baffling fora. If you read the rules of the mods in those fora, you may understand a little better (though I have received mail asking about a couple of the rules and I understood even less after reading them). If you wish to post an accusatory post/thread, and you are not sure about breaking the rules, contact the mods of the forum where you want to post first. They are the ones who can help.


Mark

[Prince Loeffler]

For Ed and Harlan


The rules are set by George and Peter. Logic has nothing to do with the rules they set. Either we obey and conform or we don't.

As a recent member at the Fighting Art Forum, I am only a guest thus It is not my place to go around and make demands to change and question the laws and policies of the Fighting art forum.

I do appreciate that all you are making an sincere efforts to exposed Grayston for what he really is. I find that commendable if anything.

What I'd like to know is why Fighting Art Forum is not hosting the Grayston Thread despite the fact that almost all members are from that forum ?. Why are FA members are having such a difficult time with E-Budo policies ?

I am also baffled with the subject of Ed's inquiry in regards to protecting a whisleblower. Obviously we are a public forum and whatever members choose to voice their opinion, they can do so at their own risk.

[Harlan]

Your post is redundant. I was respectful about asking...I made no demands, and acceded to the rules. I acknowledge that I am a guest here...have been one since 3/29/04.

'Prince'...I have problem with the tone of your posts. I really do feel like you are following me around, and doing your best to portray my questions in poor light. This behaviour speaks for itself. If you have a problem with me...take it to PM.

For Ed and Harlan


The rules are set by George and Peter. Logic has nothing to do with the rules they set. Either we obey and conform or we don't.

As a recent member at the Fighting Art Forum, I am only a guest thus It is not my place to go around and make demands to change and question the laws and policies of the Fighting art forum.

I do appreciate that all you are making an sincere efforts to exposed Grayston for what he really is. I find that commendable if anything.

What I'd like to know is why Fighting Art Forum is not hosting the Grayston Thread despite the fact that almost all members are from that forum ?. Why are FA members are having such a difficult time with E-Budo policies ?

I am also baffled with the subject of Ed's inquiry in regards to protecting a whisleblower. Obviously we are a public forum and whatever members choose to voice their opinion, they can do so at their own risk.

[P Goldsbury]

To Ed Morris and Harlan,

Many thanks for the suggestion. I'll consider it and discuss it with George Kohler in due course.

Normally you would not need to put your teacher's name in your profile, but the rules relating to Bad/Baffling Budo were tightened up recently. It might well be that we need to look at the rules again at some point.

Basically, Neil Yamamoto's post explained things pretty clearly. However, I think that the Baffling/Bad Budo forums have an important function, but the need for honesty and accountability is all the more important in those forums. If you (you = anyone) make an allegation about a fellow member, then his/her reputation is on the line and your reputation is on the line also, for making the allegation. In addition, since the student-teacher relationship is paramount in Japanese budo, your teacher's reputation is also on the line. Hence the need for honesty, objectivity and hard evidence to back up the claims you make.

Best wishes,

[Chris McLean]

I Know I dont participate in Bad Budo for personal reasons but I really feel strongly about the new rule being a good change.

As a Martial Arts instructor it is my job not only to teach the physical skills of Martial Arts but the character of the students needs to change too. If I hold my students accountable for their actions and teach them to be responcible and to stop being a victom then they are developing character.

IMHO This rule is a direct reflection of E-Budos role in the character developement of not only the person being accused of poor character but the former student as well.

[Prince Loeffler]

1) Your post is redundant.

2) I was respectful about asking...I made no demands, and acceded to the rules.

3) I acknowledge that I am a guest here...have been one since 3/29/04.

4) Prince'...I have problem with the tone of your posts.

5) I really do feel like you are following me around,

6) and doing your best to portray my questions in poor light.

7) This behaviour speaks for itself.

8) If you have a problem with me...take it to PM.


1) Well there's a saying The ear tends to be lazy, craves the familiar and is shocked by the unexpected; the eye, on the other hand, tends to be impatient, craves the novel and is bored by repetition.

2) If you say so.

3) Good ! act like one and show your respect to your Mr. Goldbury.

4) I can't hear the tone of my post, how is it that you do ?

5) Aren't you a tad bit young to suffer from Paranoia

6) If you think that's my best piece of work, you should see when I put my heart and soul into it.

7) I concur !

8) If I have a problem with you, I would take it publickly not privately ! Any way, lets move on shall we ?? !

[Harlan]

For the second time...thank you (all) for the replies. Especially, for taking the time to educate me on the context underpinning the e-budo forum rules.


Quote: Prince Loeffler

1) Well there's a saying The ear tends to be lazy, craves the familiar and is shocked by the unexpected; the eye, on the other hand, tends to be impatient, craves the novel and is bored by repetition.

There is another saying: everything you see is a reflection of your own mind.

3) Good ! act like one and show your respect to your Mr. Goldbury.

I think I have. I have PM'ed him...and if he has a problem with me...I am sure he will let me know.

5) Aren't you a tad bit young to suffer from Paranoia

I find your comment disrespectful.

8)Any way, lets move on shall we ??

Done.

[George Kohler]

There will be no changes in the rules for now.

[Ed_morris]

someone mentioned they were baffled by my question in this thread...I've been away on vacation, but I feel the need to answer that question posed to me. I really can't answer it better than my previous post:

I didn't intend for this to be criticism or emotionally driven...just a suggestion. I'm not personally affected either way, but I was thinking of the scenerio I gave as possible and applicable to some.

also, I didn't know the appropriate section to place this, so feel free to move the thread where you think makes sense.


I think that made it pretty clear I wasn't making demands, nor expecting anything to be changed...just food for thought. I haven't got a problem with anyone here or how things are run on various forums...sharing ideas and expanding horizons is what it's all about. - maybe even share a laugh or two during the process....and e-budo has definitely delivered that! :p

[yelena66]

I also agree with that.

[yelena segal]

===========================
Card games is my nature,
Can you tell me the game for me?
Reveal your future, tarot reading
www.tarotcard-psychic.com

[Prince Loeffler]

I also agree with that.



===========================
Card games is my nature,
Can you tell me the game for me?
Reveal your future, tarot reading
www.tarotcard-psychic.com




Real Name Please ????? We aren't all psychic here . :)

[concepnin]

I think that this rule is fair. If you have good internet etiquette, you don't have to worry about getting in to any trouble. Just learn to keep yer trap under control is all.And remember, everybody is different, there will always be disagreements. Just be the bigger man\woman and bite the bullet.

[glad2bhere]

Question to Mods:

This is not altogether exactly what we are talking about here but is related, I think and wondered if folks here on E-Budo have established a way of dealing with it. Stereotypically the situation would arise as follows.

Mr. Poster comes on to a forum area and asks, somewhat innocently, whether some form of recognized traditional arts has ever been pit against BJJ or NHB. In variably the thread escallates with some intersted parties being invited to attend a "one-time" experience at some local club. The alternate result is that the thread becomes a flame-fest which seems to become a protracted debate. What I have noticed in both cases is that often a particulat art or location is mentioned not a few times in the course of the discussion.

The reason I raise this issue is not so much for the manner in which it disturbs the "hwa" of the community. Rather what I object to is the "free advertising" that comes under the guise of "discussion". These forums are not cheap to maintain and I am curious whether some policy was ever considered to address these behaviors? Toughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[MattJ]

The reason I raise this issue is not so much for the manner in which it disturbs the "hwa" of the community. Rather what I object to is the "free advertising" that comes under the guise of "discussion". These forums are not cheap to maintain and I am curious whether some policy was ever considered to address these behaviors? Toughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

How is mentioning a particular style on a martial arts forum considered advertising? Aren't we here to discuss specific martial arts?

[Ed_morris]

Rather what I object to is the "free advertising" that comes under the guise of "discussion".

If memory serves, I think we ran into some like that over at another forum...it's really a pretty clever scam. They sway threads so that it is 'on topic' to post a link to their website or books they are selling.

some are obvious about it...they start a new thread and ask: "Hey I heard this place teaches REAL Karate...anyone know it?" and then a bunch of people with very low post count and recent joins to the forum chime in with fake testimony. weird how all of those new members giving positive testimony all have the same IP address. lol

then you get the ditto-head students. a recent bunch were from the 'great karate myth' book club recently. new thread: "hey what does everyone think of THIS book?" and then the person asking turns out to be a person appearing on the author's website and a high ranking member of the ryu. pitiful.

some are even more devious and subtle about it...they hang around the forum and are nice, helpful and smart for months...then they start with the wesites, books, seminar, DVD's, etc propaganda. They can equally go to budo-hell. :rolleyes:

[glad2bhere]

Thanks, Ed, you hit the nail right on the head.

I have seen this pulled on more than a few occasions and even commented to mods, now and again. Somehow they didn't seem to see it as a problem. Not sure if I was being too imaginative or if they were just being a little "thick". I can't say that I have seen that much of it here, but there were times on some other forums where it seems to crop up over and over again.

Best Wishes,

Bruce