Shodan/Judan...What's in a name?

[Woody]

All this talk about undeserved or unearned rank in the Shindo Ryu Karatedo Mr Stephen Grayston thread has gotten me to thinking.
In Aikido, one can "feel" someones waza when you attempt to "attack" them. Some peoples waza seem at a higher level than their rank, and others seem at a lower level. As one trains with various people in Aikido their rank takes on a less important role. It soon becomes apparent whether their waza is "good" or "bad." I have "attacked" shodans that felt like yondans and vice versa.
Is a persons true waza not so apparent in other martial arts?

[cxt]

Woody

I think the point is that until you actually "get on the mat" so to speak how can you tell the quality of the waza?

If all you experience is looking at the belts---what can you really tell?

In addition, are you "really" sure your getting the "real" deal on the mat?
Rob Redmon once observed that with most people, their physical skills decline as one ages.

(there are always exceptions of course :) )

So one indeed might be ranked "higher" than one current skills.

And as Rob extended the idea.
What other choice do you have?
Should be people's rank be stripped when they could no longer fight at their previous level?
Should we all go BACK down the ranks as our physcial skills decline?

[Trevor Johnson]

All this talk about undeserved or unearned rank in the Shindo Ryu Karatedo Mr Stephen Grayston thread has gotten me to thinking.
In Aikido, one can "feel" someones waza when you attempt to "attack" them. Some peoples waza seem at a higher level than their rank, and others seem at a lower level. As one trains with various people in Aikido their rank takes on a less important role. It soon becomes apparent whether their waza is "good" or "bad." I have "attacked" shodans that felt like yondans and vice versa.
Is a persons true waza not so apparent in other martial arts?

Depends on who you've been trained by and in what. In karate, good people often hit harder, but that ability declines with age and frailty. (Though anyone who's ever trained with Harry Cook knows it doesn't decline THAT fast...) The ability to hit correctly is often looked at, but often different styles have different ways of hitting. If you look at the "karate" sidekick and roundhouse kick vs the "Tae Kwon Do" versions, you see differences in technique and in application.

Also, if you're going for "tournament" style vs more of a "fighting" style vs a "personal development" style, you're going to see differences in what you do and how, because the philosophy behind each is different. "Tournament" styles often emphasize speed and pretty technique over power, because that looks good and wins in tournaments. More "self-defense" oriented styles tend to focus on hitting harder, and may not look quite as pretty. (This is not to say that the technique isn't clean or precise, but it's not as pretty due to "self-defense" concerns about the chaos of a fight.)

In other words, depending on who you've trained with, you'll see different things as more or less good, depending. One person may look at the blinding speed and lack of damage done by a "tournament" master and be very impressed. Another may call that a sissy pom style and be impressed by how much it hurts when HIS seniors hit him. The "tournament" person may look at him and sniff about his thuggish lack of control and slower strikes.

Don't know about other arts, but the basic gist here is that whatever you've been taught to look at as "good," that's what someone you call a "master" is going to be good at. So if someone who's really a phony gets to you first, it's going to take a lot of training to get HIS aesthetic appreciations and ideas of what is "good" out of your system, because he's the one who loaded in the first data. Someone who gets to him already having fought may not be so impressed, because they've got previous experience telling them that this is not real.

[mews]

Woody


And as Rob extended the idea.
What other choice do you have?
Should be people's rank be stripped when they could no longer fight at their previous level?
Should we all go BACK down the ranks as our physcial skills decline?
----
one does in Sumo and in most competitive sports - your ranking declines.
but, then, we are not doing a sport. 'tis budo, right?
nor are we attached to our ranks :D
we train for the art of it...

mew

[cxt]

Mews

I think "sumo" was the exact comparison Rob Redmon made :)

Wouldn't it be a great thing to see?

Since we are doing "budo" for our own self development--that people would CHOOSE to give up their ranks in a kind of "reverse" belt test, as they aged ;)

[Trevor Johnson]

Mews

I think "sumo" was the exact comparison Rob Redmon made :)

Wouldn't it be a great thing to see?

Since we are doing "budo" for our own self development--that people would CHOOSE to give up their ranks in a kind of "reverse" belt test, as they aged ;)

That assumes that one can measure a person's value by their physical status. Don't forget that wonderful adage about old age and treachery!

Older people may not be as adept at fighting, but it's their passing on what they know that keeps what we do a system and an art. Plus, they can often tell us NOT to do something because THEY learned not to do it the hard way. This saves the young 'uns much time, effort, and especially cumulative injury, which is the quickest way to get old, and to be avoided as often as possible.

Otherwise, if you wanted to learn MA, it'd basically come down to going out and fighting, and taking your own idealized theories, unleavened by experience, and testing them in the limited span you have before you succumb to your own injuries and have to fade quietly away into the night. Hmmm, ninja senior citizens, there's an idea...:D

[DDATFUS]

Hmmm, ninja senior citizens, there's an idea...:D

AARP does quite well enough without your help, Trevor. Leave well enough alone.

[mews]

Well, as we hand back in our grade, we become a "revisiting xxxdan/kyu" on our way down.

That way, the competitively inclined can have a race to the bottom - :p

"Hey, dude, I'm a revisiting shodan!"

"humph, that's nothing special - now MY teacher, she/he's a revisiting yonkyu!"

It would take the luster off of 15 year old 6th-dans ...

mew

[Woody]

It would also give new meaning to the "way."