And on that farm he had a..... daimyo?!

[Unskilled_Blade]

I haven't posted anything MA related for a good time; mostly because I've been reading a fascinating book, Warriors of Medieval Japan by Stepen Turnbull, and if you haven't read it, it's a great book on the history
of the samurai, ashigaru, ninja and the warrior monks. This is a very well written book, and answered many of my own questions. But, it did raise a question thats been bugging me for days.

The book says, and I quote: "The traditonal farewell meal of kachi guri,
kombu, and awabi washed down with sake was the last ritual of departure before the daimyo took his signalling fan and shouted 'Ei! Ei!' to which the samurai replied 'Oh!'." end quote, lol.

And thinking about the way the daimyo and the samurai shouted, I can't help myself but to think of the childrens song "Old McDonald", in which children imitate farm animals and then say the phrase "Ei Ei Oh!". Does anyone know of a connection between the song and the samurai ritual? I just found it really strange. Thanks! :D

[fifthchamber]

Nope...In Japanese "Ei" is not pronounced the same as "Ee" in the song. So there is no reason to presume the link at all.
Japanese pronounciation is not the same as English..."Ei" is pronounced "Aa-e" kind of.."Ee" as in the song would have been pronounced "Ii"...Learn Japanese for more on that topic.

[Unskilled_Blade]

I've been trying to learn Japenese here and there, but until I find a teacher after I graduate, sorry!

[kenkyusha]

Just sing:
'Old McDonald had some arms
iai, iai -do

And those arms included ken,
iai, iai - do

With a seiza here, a seiza there, here a seiza, there a seiza everywhere a seiza

Old McDonald had some arms,
iai, iai - do'.

They hate that :).

Be well,
Jigme

[Fred27]

Heh, I found this off one of the posters over at swordforum.com


""...And on that farm, he had a Sword, I-ai-I-ai-dooooo!
..with a cut-cut here, and a cut-cut there, here-a-cut, there-a-cut, everywhere a cut-cut..
..Old McShinken had a farm, I-ai-I-ai-dooooooo!"

[Steve Delaney]

LOL

Stop ripping off Meik Skoss! :)

[Brian Owens]

...Japanese pronounciation is not the same as English..."Ei" is pronounced "Aa-e" kind of...
Yep.

Or one could say that the Japanese "Ei" is pronounced sort of like the English "Ay" -- rhymes with "hay" -- but with more of an "ee" at the end; a running together of "Eh-ee." (Think of how we say "sensei.")

Strangely, no one seems to agree on how to write the lyrics for Old McDonald/Old MacDonald. I've seen "Ee i ee i o," "E-I-E-I-O," and "eeh, aye, eeh, aye, oh."

If it were Japanese, I would write it in romaji as "ii ai ii ai ou."

The song itself may be an evolution of an old children's folk song called Ohio.


Old MacDougal had a farm
In O-hi-o-i-o

And on that farm he had some dogs
In O-hi-o-i-o

With a bow-wow here, and a bow-wow there
Here a bow, there a wow, everywhere a bow-wow

Old MacDougal had a farm
In O-hi-o-i-o

[Brian Owens]

I've been trying to learn Japenese here and there, but until I find a teacher after I graduate, sorry!

Reading romanized Japanese is pretty easy, once you get the vowel sounds down. Pretty much, the vowels are always pronounced the same, so you only have to add a consonant in front of one to get all the sounds.

Then remember that ,except for n, there are no single consonants; just consonant-vowel combinations: ka, re, ni, so, tsu, etc.

Here's a table of vowel sounds from Webster's New World Compact Japanese Dictionary (Prentice Hall, 1983. Fujihiko Kaneda, Editor). The vowels in the book are in the standard American order, not the Japanese, so I've changed the order here. Other than that, this is as printed:


Short Vowels

a as in father, alms
i as in ink, machine
u as in true, cruel
e as in pen, red
o as in open, ocean

Vowel Combinations
All combined vowels are pronounced in full; for examples:

ei = e + i sounded as in day
ai = a + i sounded as in alive
ou = o + u sounded as in float
au = a + u sounded as in out


HTH.

[fifthchamber]

I agree entirely with Brian's posts above of course, I just wanted to add that although it is correct to use the pronounciations he listed above (ie: "Ei" being "day " etc) in practise many Japanese listeners will have a harder time understanding you if you fail to enuniciate the two vowels.."E" and "I" following it..This is not always taught in books and should be, the sounds are not precisely what they work out as in English, and a precaution should be taken to pronounce those individual sounds in order to be understood..Try it by using the "day " sounds above but stress the last "y" sound slightly to reflect the "I" in Japanese..
That said, the majority of the time it matters not at all..Most people can work out what you mean even if the words are slightly blurry..It only means anything if you like to sound closer to the Japanese original..

[Brian Owens]

...although it is correct to use the pronounciations listed above (ie: "Ei" being "d[B]ay " etc) in practise many Japanese listeners will have a harder time understanding you if you fail to enuniciate the two vowels. "E" and "I" following it. ...Try it by using the "day " sounds above but stress the last "y" sound slightly to reflect the "I" in Japanese. ...Most people can work out what you mean even if the words are slightly blurry. It only means anything if you like to sound closer to the Japanese original.
Yep. And since I try (mostly unsuccessfully) to sound as "properly" Japanese as possible, that's why my earlier post said:

...the Japanese "Ei" is pronounced sort of like the English "Ay" -- rhymes with "hay" -- but with more of an "ee" at the end; a running together of "Eh-ee."

Getting across the proper pronunciations in print is so difficult (remember the "New Game: Pronunciation Guides" thread?) that I'm thinking about producing a print/audio set called Audio-Visual Dictionary of Japanese for the Martial Arts, in which a DVD, or a CD and a booklet, will list an A to Z compilation of terms from several JMAs, and several native speakers of Japanese will pronounce each word.

No firm date on when it will be out (I've not even finalized the production schedule), but I hope to have it within the year. I'm hoping to have assistance from my old school, the Nippon Business Institute at Everett Community College, as well as a few of my former sensei from the karate, Aikido, and Iaido worlds.

Wish me luck.

[fifthchamber]

Good luck!
Sounds like a very worthwhile enterprise, I'd be more than interested in a copy if it is published! If only to keep on practising this accursed language!
Regards.