Lifetime, Dedicated Training to One Art

[joe yang]

That is not to say that lifetime dedicated training to one art is the only way to go, or right, or better, or even appropriate for everyone. However, for the right person, with the right art and the right instructor, there are insights that can be gained from a lifetime of training and discipline in one art. That kind of training does not preclude "taking a minor" in a second art. It is not however, a "dabbling" mind set. If I am not mistaken, E-budo is primarily about martial artists who believe in the benefits of a lifetime of training?

That is not to say we exclude other approaches to MA training or that we are snobs. On the contrary, we are often subject to a certain "reverse snobism." Often this is just "cultural dissonance" from serious martial artists who just don't get what we are doing. Too often it is super soke who want their martial arts to be what they say it is.

The arguements and objections to our approach to training from both camps often take the same form. Our type of training isn't practical, street effective, doesn't work, takes too long too learn. Our responses tend to be the same and consequently, the real martial artists think we are lumping them in with the frauds.

We hear people who have tried our style so they know it doesn't work. We are invited to train with this one and that because we might learn something. That is not how long term training works.

For some of us, trying a technique is not learning a technique. Learning a technique is doing thousands and thousands of repititions, under every possible condition. It is reaching moments of transcendental enlightenment over a sweep, lock and take down only to decide that technique isn't right for me. Some of us have the time and inclination to train that way. If you haven't trained like that, you can't pass judgement on that school of training, what ever your exposure was. Again, not to say you have to train this way.

If you shop around, do seminars, guest instructors, etc., that may be right for you. Please don't think it is right for everyone or dismiss us if we don't find that kind of training effective. However new, steamlined or effective your style is, there are only so many ways to hurt someone. It is probably in our syllabus somewhere.

The rank, titles, certificates, licenses and belts we all know come from the dedicated, life long training schools. With them should come a sense of humility and modesty. Displaying those symbols, boasting of them on the internet is contrary to that humility and modesty. It also suggests the boaster is one with the tradition of life long training.

It is not "bad martial arts", particularly on a forum such as this to say "I think this is wrong or that is wrong." Further, a well stated opinion is not an accusation. Coming on here and taking the moral high ground, accussing us of being "bad martial artists" is disingenous. How is it wrong for us to state an opinion and right for you to make an accusation?

[trevorg]

That is not to say that lifetime dedicated training to one art is the only way to go, or right, or better, or even appropriate for everyone. However, for the right person, with the right art and the right instructor, there are insights that can be gained from a lifetime of training and discipline in one art. That kind of training does not preclude "taking a minor" in a second art. It is not however, a "dabbling" mind set. If I am not mistaken, E-budo is primarily about martial artists who believe in the benefits of a lifetime of training?

That is not to say we exclude other approaches to MA training or that we are snobs. On the contrary, we are often subject to a certain "reverse snobism." Often this is just "cultural dissonance" from serious martial artists who just don't get what we are doing. Too often it is super soke who want their martial arts to be what they say it is.

The arguements and objections to our approach to training from both camps often take the same form. Our type of training isn't practical, street effective, doesn't work, takes too long too learn. Our responses tend to be the same and consequently, the real martial artists think we are lumping them in with the frauds.

We hear people who have tried our style so they know it doesn't work. We are invited to train with this one and that because we might learn something. That is not how long term training works.

For some of us, trying a technique is not learning a technique. Learning a technique is doing thousands and thousands of repititions, under every possible condition. It is reaching moments of transcendental enlightenment over a sweep, lock and take down only to decide that technique isn't right for me. Some of us have the time and inclination to train that way. If you haven't trained like that, you can't pass judgement on that school of training, what ever your exposure was. Again, not to say you have to train this way.

If you shop around, do seminars, guest instructors, etc., that may be right for you. Please don't think it is right for everyone or dismiss us if we don't find that kind of training effective. However new, steamlined or effective your style is, there are only so many ways to hurt someone. It is probably in our syllabus somewhere.

The rank, titles, certificates, licenses and belts we all know come from the dedicated, life long training schools. With them should come a sense of humility and modesty. Displaying those symbols, boasting of them on the internet is contrary to that humility and modesty. It also suggests the boaster is one with the tradition of life long training.

It is not "bad martial arts", particularly on a forum such as this to say "I think this is wrong or that is wrong." Further, a well stated opinion is not an accusation. Coming on here and taking the moral high ground, accussing us of being "bad martial artists" is disingenous. How is it wrong for us to state an opinion and right for you to make an accusation?

Was that just a general statement to the world at large or a rant at anyone in particular ?

[joe yang]

Glad you asked. Did it sound like a rant? My bad. It was just a general observation. I would be happy to rephrase it. However, if anyone considered it a rant, perhaps they have sensitivity issues! LOL

[trevorg]

Glad you asked. Did it sound like a rant? My bad. It was just a general observation. I would be happy to rephrase it. However, if anyone considered it a rant, perhaps they have sensitivity issues! LOL

I quite like general observations because they may or may not elicit a response,but it makes you feel good and remains there for all to see.

[Woody]

I dabbled in several martial arts before I found the one that I wanted to spend the rest of my life training in. After that, I haven't looked back and have felt no desire to train in another art.

[joe yang]

I dabbled in several martial arts before I found the one that I wanted to spend the rest of my life training in. After that, I haven't looked back and have felt no desire to train in another art.

I don't care what you think! I want to see a dedicated, wacky animation! Screw the martial arts.

Seriously Woody, everyone should realize how lucky you are, finding an art you can commit to is special, dabbling and then finding that art is especially rare. Good for you. Now where is my animation?

[Tripitaka of AA]

Well, I guess "rant" comes to mind a little bit Joe, as it doesn't read as smoothly as your usual prose. It sounds like it was dictated from inside a shower stall after a work-out. The ideas are all there, but it is a little disjointed and assumes a lot of background knowledge from the reader. Fortunately, you and I have been reading a lot of the same threads recently and I do know (I think) what you are referring to.

A general statement is good though...

[Woody]

I don't care what you think! I want to see a dedicated, wacky animation! Screw the martial arts.

Seriously Woody, everyone should realize how lucky you are, finding an art you can commit to is special, dabbling and then finding that art is especially rare. Good for you. Now where is my animation?
Here ya go Joe.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/deserthippie/anim.gif

[P Goldsbury]

Hello Joe,

I think that this post is one of your budo 'cosmic fragments'. I hope you won't mind a few comments. I should add that, since I moderate Baffling / Bad Budo, where the vices you mention are exhibited to a high degree, perhaps I have some grounds for making these comments.

That is not to say that lifetime dedicated training to one art is the only way to go, or right, or better, or even appropriate for everyone. However, for the right person, with the right art and the right instructor, there are insights that can be gained from a lifetime of training and discipline in one art. That kind of training does not preclude "taking a minor" in a second art. It is not however, a "dabbling" mind set. If I am not mistaken, E-budo is primarily about martial artists who believe in the benefits of a lifetime of training??
PAG. Yes, but there are various ways in which you can pursue this 'lifetime of training'. You can do it as an uchi-deshi, which means being a blank sheet and memory chip for your adopted sensei. Or you can do it in the way that I suspact that the 18,000 members of E-Budo do, as a lifetime spent in training when the time allows (having to juggle demands of job, wife/husband, and family commitments).
On the other hand, I know of one person who has a private income such that he does need to work at all and 'dabbles' in the martial arts full-time. And he is very good technically in the arts he has chosen. I think this is an issue that has never received serious attention: if you want to practise the martial arts to the same degree of commitment as the founders largely practised, you need a private income.

That is not to say we exclude other approaches to MA training or that we are snobs. On the contrary, we are often subject to a certain "reverse snobbism." Often this is just "cultural dissonance" from serious martial artists who just don't get what we are doing. Too often it is super soke who want their martial arts to be what they say it is.?
PAG. You change the subject to "we" and so I am tempted to ask who "we" are. Are you thinking of the 'dabblers' in one or more arts, or of those who seriously pursue one art, despite other commiments? I can think of at least one very serious practitioner who became a 'super-soke' and changed his martial art to the way he wanted it to be, with disastrous results.

The arguements and objections to our approach to training from both camps often take the same form. Our type of training isn't practical, street effective, doesn't work, takes too long too learn. Our responses tend to be the same and consequently, the real martial artists think we are lumping them in with the frauds.?
PAG. You make a distinction here between 'us' and 'real' martial artists. I am not sure as to who is in which category.

We hear people who have tried our style so they know it doesn't work. We are invited to train with this one and that because we might learn something. That is not how long term training works.

For some of us, trying a technique is not learning a technique. Learning a technique is doing thousands and thousands of repititions, under every possible condition. It is reaching moments of transcendental enlightenment over a sweep, lock and take down only to decide that technique isn't right for me. Some of us have the time and inclination to train that way. If you haven't trained like that, you can't pass judgement on that school of training, what ever your exposure was. Again, not to say you have to train this way.

If you shop around, do seminars, guest instructors, etc., that may be right for you. Please don't think it is right for everyone or dismiss us if we don't find that kind of training effective. However new, steamlined or effective your style is, there are only so many ways to hurt someone. It is probably in our syllabus somewhere.?
PAG. Well, I have taken only three classes in a martial different fron the martial art I practise (naginata and karate). However, I have used aikido in the street on the street on several occasions and found it to be highly effective.

The rank, titles, certificates, licenses and belts we all know come from the dedicated, life long training schools. With them should come a sense of humility and modesty. Displaying those symbols, boasting of them on the internet is contrary to that humility and modesty. It also suggests the boaster is one with the tradition of life long training.?
PAG. I am not sure about this. I certainly think that the titles should be validly given (they should not be bestowed by the holder via his/her organization) and evidence shoulld be given, if need be, of their authenticity.

It is not "bad martial arts", particularly on a forum such as this to say "I think this is wrong or that is wrong." Further, a well stated opinion is not an accusation. Coming on here and taking the moral high ground, accussing us of being "bad martial artists" is disingenous. How is it wrong for us to state an opinion and right for you to make an accusation?
PAG. I think this depends on a number of factors. People in the martial arts need to be aware of the consequences that result from their actions as martial artists, especially in a discussion forum such as this one. Recently, I was rather shocked to hear of martial artists whose income has largely been destroyed, and marriages demolished, as a result of threads in E-budo. I have only heard of these cases by private mail, but it gives me great cause for concern as a moderator.

I agree that a well-stated opinion is not an accusation, but I am also aware that the masthead of E-Budo states that we will conduct our discussions in a 'friendly atmosphere'. How do you do this with someone you consider to be a fraud?

Bast wishes, as always,

PAG

[joe yang]

Thanks for the cartoon Woody! Appoligies to everyone for not being clear and thanks for trying to make sense of my rambling. I usually edit and reread long posts. Then again I don't ususally have a Guinness when I'm posting. (Big fan of Extra Stout, hate that little tampon in draft.)

I quess I'm trying to say committed, long term training in one art can have a payoff, way down the road. In reality, everyone isn't looking for that, everyone isn't going to find it, everyone doesn't need it. However, to keep our discussions friendly, everyone here should understand, some martial artists are looking for the benefits of long term, committed training in one art. (Appologies to Peter, many people who make that training committment do have to work that training in around jobs and families and they do.)

Committing to that kind of training is committing to the idea that a style does work, is effective, is practical and can be mastered in time. It means dabbling in other styles is a waste of time till the chosen style is mastered.

Coming onto this board claiming this doesn't work, that doesn't work, this takes too long, that takes too long, is going to offend some people. Justifying your position by claiming you tried this or that for a little while before you dismissed it is going to be offend some people. Claiming you have synthesized a system that does work and we should try it before we judge it might offend some people too. Coming on this board, taking offense at questions asked, dismissing traditional training with blanket generalizations, accusing people of immodesty, well that is a forumla for disaster.

I probably still haven't written myself out of a drunken corner here, but this post wasn't prompted so much by the super soke and their minions as it was by some of their recent detractors who still don't seem to grasp what some of us are all about. And it is Saturday afternoon, it's hot out, my family needs me, the beach is calling and I'm drinking vodka!

[Fred27]

And it is Saturday afternoon, it's hot out, my family needs me, the beach is calling and I'm drinking vodka!

I can spot at least one thing that is wrong on sooo many levels in the above quote :rolleyes:

[joe yang]

I can spot at least one thing that is wrong on sooo many levels in the above quote :rolleyes:


I worked a lot of hard, long years lumping up bad guys for very little reward, to retire to a little, run down duplex, (semi detached for the UK) in a bad neighborhood, (read crack) in walking distance of the beach. It's the weekend. I'm having a drink and I'm still on guard. There is a lot more than one thing wrong on sooo many levels here!

[Woody]

Joe,
Sounds like you could use a kiss.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/deserthippie/cowkisss.gif

[joe yang]

A hug. If I let you kiss me, I won't know where to stop!

[trevorg]

I worked a lot of hard, long years lumping up bad guys for very little reward, to retire to a little, run down duplex, (semi detached for the UK) in a bad neighborhood, (read crack) in walking distance of the beach. It's the weekend. I'm having a drink and I'm still on guard. There is a lot more than one thing wrong on sooo many levels here!


And I used to love Naples so much.

[K Lee]

Well, just to be on the filpside of your statement, I can't imagine spending my entire life dedicated to one MA. There's just too much out there for me.

I tend to think of MAs as analgous to a buffet. There's chicken, beef, pork, fish, a variety of vegetables, bread of all sorts, casseroles, etc. Why would I choose to only eat chicken for the rest of my life? Okay, maybe there's too much for me to try. After looking at it for awhile, I decide on which ones to try. Maybe I find one (or a few) that I like and keep coming back for those things. But that is not going to preclude me for still trying other dishes.

I just can't fathom what the harm would be in trying different MAs, especially if one has dedicated many to years to a particular style already. Maybe it makes you aware of new movements or techniques, maybe it allows you to make connections that you had not considered before, maybe it makes you doubt aspects of your original art (oh no!!!), maybe it confirms to you that your original art has everything you need and the new arts has nothing for you. In any of these cases, the outcome is positive unless you connect your ego the martial art you practice.

I mean, maybe someone might have a truely thorough appreciation of chicken if that is all they ate, trying it in every single way it could possibly be prepared, and I would miss out on that.

To that I would say, at least I got to try some other food as well.

[joe yang]

Keith, I'm not saying you are wrong, for you. What I am trying to say is many of us on this forum are happy to dedicate ourselves to perfecting one art. Further, I am saying that many posters who do like the smorgasboard approach, not you neccessarily, often come on this board telling us our singular, dedicated approach is wrong and doesn't work. Usually their argument is it doesn't work because it didn't work for them. Often they add they have synthesized their own systems that do work, in far less time. Then they often conclude we should try their system for ourselves and see. That takes me back to my original point. Some of us are looking for the kind of experience that only comes from learning a system inside out, over a lifetime of training.