Various sword-ryu lineage chart

[Fred27]

Hey all.

To start off with the immortal words: "I found something cool while surfin'"

I found a very interesting "relation"-chart that depicts the relation between the various Iaijutsu and other ryu to each other. I found it on the Deutscher Iaido Bund e_V_ - DIaiB e_V_ - Verein für japanischen Schwertkampf (http://www.diaib.de/). Its all in german but you can find the PDF-file with the chart here (http://www.diaib.de/deutscher_iaido_bund_ueber_iaido.htm). (its the bottom PDF named "Zeittafel der Schwertschulen")
This website is all public so I assume there is no problem sharing it.

I cant comment on the authenticity, but I found the Iaijutsu lineage section to be very interesting and enlightening on how the various (still extant) iaido(jutsu)-ryu are connected and what influences they had on each other. Doesnt look 100% complete but interesting nonetheless. Enjoy!

[Andy Watson]

Wow, that is interesting. There is lots of stuff on this site and the jpeg of the lineage is quite good too.

[ZealUK]

The lineage PDF is nice enough, but there are quite a few mistakes compared to other charts I have seen.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yeah, I'd hate to think that MJER has been supplanted by Omori-Ryu, Toyama-Ryu, & Muso Shinden-Ryu the way the chart indicates!!

Erik, can you integrate, or at least line up, your MJER lineage chart with this one?

[Fred27]

I interpret the PDF chart as:

"Muso shinden-ryu" came from Eishin-ryu (the precise influence is shimomura-ha of eishin-ryu), Omori-ryu and Shin Muso Hayashisaki ryu.

I know Nakayama Hakudo was from the Shimomura-ha and that he used Omori-ryu when creating his new Muso Shinden-ryu. The Shin Muso Hayashisaki ryu influence I cant recall.

Is this not a correct lineage for Muso Shinden-ryu?

[ZealUK]

Nakayama Hakudo also studied Shindo Munen Ryu.

Thing is Oe Masamichi had already codified Omori Ryu and Hasegawa Eishin Ryu into MJER using the Tanimura Ha. When he died Nakayama Hakudo brought about MSR AFAIK.

I think the lineage of MJER and MSR is frankly, in comparison to most other schools a total mess. Best worth finding a good teacher and forgetting about it.

Anyway the chart is totally wrong in regard to the lineage of some other schools MJER and MSR aside.

[Fred27]

Oki doki :)

[Rennis]

Despite popular belief, the Hoki ryu lineage being connected to Hayashizaki Jinsuke is also most likely wrong. I can't really blame them for the mistake though as most iai related literature connect the two and claim that Katayama Hisayasu was a student of his even though Katayama ryu & Hoki ryu themselves makes no such claims and the historical record points to different roots entirely.

Best,
Rennis Buchner

[bushikan]

Nakayama Hakudo was 18th soke of Shinmura ha Hasegawa Eishin Ryu and the 7th soke of Shindo Munen Ryu Kenjutsu. He would inherit the Yushinkan from Negishi Shingoro 6th soke of Shindo Munen Ryu. He would also recieve Menkyo in Shinto Muso Ryu Jojutsu from Uchida Ryogyo. Shinmura Ha Hasegawa Eishin Ryu originally comprised of Iaijutsu (Omori Ryu, Hasegawa Eishin Ryu, and Shingenobu Ryu), Iai Kumitachi (Hasegawa Eishin Ryu, and Shigenobu Ryu) Yawara and kogusogu (Natsubashi Ryu), bojutsu (Itabashi Ryu), Hyoho (Shingenobu Ryu), and religious practices. Through his experience including Mokuroku in Muraku Ryu, Mokuroku in Yamaguchi ha Itto Ryu, and the vast iai curriculum of Shindo Munen Ryu Kenjutsu would reform the curriculum to Shinmuto Ryu-Muso Shinden Ryu Iaijutsu (this is the name given by Nakayama Hakudo to the Yushinkan, the kanji for muso is the same as muso Jikeden Eishin Ryu, also all the densho written by Nakayama Hakudo and Hosokawa Sensei contain this kanji. However there is a big difference between Muso Shinden Ryu as practiced Mitsuzuka Takashi, and other teaches connected to the kendo federation. The Yushinkan teaches Iaijutsu, Iai Kumitachi (tachiuchi no kurai, tsumeai no kurai, daishozume, daisho tachizume, and daikendori) and Hyoho (from the 3 documents of Shingenobu Ryu). There might be more to the curriculum however I have some time before Ogawa Sensei will expose me to more, this includes other kuden from Shindo Munen Ryu and Shinto Muso Ryu. Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido as practiced by members of the Kendo Federation mainly practice only the iai portion of the curriculum and maybe the Tachiuchi no Kurai at advanced levels. Which is rather unfortunate. Also the Yushinkan uses traditional licenses not dan rankings as used by the Kendo federations.

Hope this helps

[Fred27]

Here is more mentioning of Nakayama Hakudo as recieving a Menkyo Kaiden in Shinto Muso-ryu. I've heard some talk that this is not exactly what he was given by Uchida Ryogoro.

I mean no disrespect to neither Nakayama Sensei or his students, but are you 100% sure he recieved a Menkyo, did he recieve and pass on the Gokui? Was it not a (sho-mokuroku) license Nakayama Sensei recieved instead of the final complete scroll of transmission (called ''Menjo inka'' in the days of Nakayama) which constitutes a current Menkyo

[bushikan]

I appologise for the post before I have several articles on Nakayama Hakudo given to me by Ogawa Sensei and books I've been collecting over the years, and "Muso Shinden Shigenobu Ryu" by by Kimura Eiju lists him as sho- mokuroku. I am unsure If he learned Gokui from Uchida Ryogoro, however I believe that the Yushinkan teaches Gokui. I am unsure if it is the original or not I have quite some time before I find out. And its is doubtful that someone will want to compare considering that it is one of (if not the most) important kuden in Shinto Muso Ryu. Also we practice only one of the auxilliary arts of Shinto Muso Ryu; Kasumi Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu. Again sorry for the error.

[Fred27]

No worries at all. I have very high opinions of Nakayama Hakudo so its not any sort of smear-campaign from my side. :)

Oh, the Kenjutsu part. The way I heard is that besides the Jo-kata, only the "8 tachi and 4 kodachi"-kata are listed in the earliest densho scroll for a Menkyo Kaiden, the other arts came later.

[Liam Cognet]

Slightly confused...which of these lineage charts is more correct?

http://www.diaib.de/pdf/zeitraum.pdf

http://www.kenshinkai.com.au/home_fs.htm


One chart shows Shin Muso Hayashizasi Ryu influencing MJER and MSR.

The other shows Hayashizaki Shin Muso Ryu influencing only MSR.

I assume SMHR & HSMR and the same. Or not?

[Rasmus]

Slightly confused...which of these lineage charts is more correct?

http://www.diaib.de/pdf/zeitraum.pdf

http://www.kenshinkai.com.au/home_fs.htm
I've got a question about the chart found at the Kenshin Kai site (http://www.kenshinkai.com.au/images/Schools.gif). Perhaps a separate thread would have been appropriate since this one seems to bo mostly about MSR/MER. But anyway here I go: The chart says:
Tamiya-ryu => Shin Tamiya-ryu => Mugai-ryu => Hijikata-ryu
Tamiya-ryu => Jiko-ryu => Muke-ryu + Takahashi ha-ryu
While this page (http://suimokai.pupu.jp/english/lineage.html) says:
Tamiya-ryu => Shin Tamiya-ryu => Jikyo-ryu => Mugai-ryu
It says that the introduction of the Jikyo-ryu iaijutsu into the Mugai-ryu kenjutsu was done by two brothers from the Takahashi family. The page also state that their teacher, Tagajikyoken Morimasa, was the last soke of the style and did not appoint a successor and that Jikyo-ryu died with him and was absorbed into Mugai-ryu.

I searched for Hijikata-, Muke- and Takahashi-ha-ryu on google and youtube but didn't find anything. I also checked koryu.com but nothing there either. Have anyone here ever heard about these schools? Do they stil exist today?

Is Jiko-ryu and Jikyo-ryu just two different ways to write the same kanji in English or is it two different schools?

There was a splintering of Mugai-ryu when Takahashi Kyutaro Koun appointed Nakagawa Shiryo Shinichi as his successor. Takahashi's family did not approve and his grandson decided to continue under the name Mugairyu iaijutsu while Nakagawa-soke used Mugairyu Iaihyodo. Perhaps the author of the chart is referring to the Takahashi family branch of Mugai-ryu when he wrote 'Takahashi-ha Jiko-ryu'. What do you think?

[renfield_kuroda]

Mugairyu was splintered from it's very founding in 1693, as the founder sent his two sons to different parts of Japan, whilst he remained in Tokyo.
Sadly, lineages almost never look cleanly like one line -- every menkyo kaiden can do what he wants, and the lineage really depends on who does the looking back; who you include/exclude, etc.
So, they're all wrong? They're all right? There are very, VERY few arts with transmission from only one-to-one, making the lineage a single line and really easy to follow.
Everything else is just like in real life; messy, political, ever-changing.
And yes, jikyo-ryu and jiko-ryu are probably referring to the same thing.
And BTW, never heard of Hijikata-ryu and I don't know ANY legit ryuha that were started by anyone with Menkyokaiden in any of the recognized Mugai lines. Many ha, but no new ryu as far as I know.
But take that with a grain of salt, from one guy in one lineage, so my opinion is decidedly biased!

Regards,

r e n

[Liam Cognet]

Being an MJER student, I was really just looking at ryuha that preceeded MJER, and wondering if Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu was one of them. I'll keep looking.

Ryuha history and lineage is confusing...

[sven beulke]

Hi there!
I guess there is a error in the chart. Jigen Ryu stems from Maniwa Nen Ryu?
I dont think so. TSKSR would be more correct!
Best
Sven

[DDATFUS]

What is this "Yagyu Ryu" that this lineage chart links to Yagyu Shinkage? Why is Taisha Ryu under Aisu Kage Ryu instead of under Shinkage (didn't the founder of Taisha Ryu study under Kamiizumi?)? Why is there no line connecting Taisha Ryu to Jigen Ryu (the founder of Jigen Ryu, iirc, studied Taisha Ryu and incorporated its Enpi Kata into the Jigen Ryu curriculum)? Not a bad effort, but needs some serious cleanup.

[sven beulke]

Hi David!
Yep your right! Taisha-Ryu and Tenshinshô Jigen(stems form TSKSR) are the two main influences on the Jigen Ryu.
Best

[Seishin]

Hijikata-ha was the Tosa based line of Mugai Ryu, as far as I remember. I am on vacation and don't have all my files with me, but I believe that there were 4 or 5 generations of Hijikata. The last was Kawazaki Zensaburo, who died in 1944 and left no successor. Apparently he was and expert in Mugai Ryu Kenjutsu - not just the Iai (which is really Jikyo Ryu)

Regards
Flemming Madsen

[Fred27]

Aren't there more than one Jigen-ryu? Yakamura Jigen ryu and Tenshinsho Jigen ryu?

[DDATFUS]

Aren't there more than one Jigen-ryu? Yakamura Jigen ryu and Tenshinsho Jigen ryu?

If I remember correctly, the two Jigen Ryu are two branches of the same art. I think Yakamura was developed from mainline Jigen Ryu. Though I was under the impression that Tenshinsho Jigen was one of the ryu that the founder of Jigen Ryu studied, and not the full name of either of the current branches. There are a couple of Jigen Ryu guys who post here, though; hopefull they'll come by and straighten this out.

[fifthchamber]

There is a separate but linked line that uses the name "tenshin sho Jigen ryu"...They are not part of the Kyushu lineage but claim a line going back to the same source school and broken off rather recently I believe..
At least three that I know of..

Yakushimaru Jigen Ryu

Jigen Ryu

Tenshin Sho Jigen Ryu (Which also happens to look nothing like the other two lines)...

There may be more..

[Steve Delaney]

Guys,

There are as far as I know, three lines of Jigen-ryu

There's mainline Jigen-ryu (示現流 ) who practice kenjutsu.

Yakumaru Jigen-ryu (薬丸自源流 ) who practice no-dachijutsu with the same vigour.

Then there is Tenshin Sho Jigen-ryu (天真正自源流 ), which looks nothing at all like it's counterparts. They're based in Kanto. They practice iai & kenjutsu that is more akin to Meiji jidai kendo practice rather than the rugged & simplistic technique of their bretheren down in Kyushu.

[ZealUK]

In addition to the schools mentioned there is also an unrelated Jigen Ryu (寺見流 ) in Kumamoto.

In the old days there were a few different branches of the main line of Jigen Ryu (示現流兵法 ), however none of these branches are practiced today. These were all based in Satsuma with the exception of Kasama Jigen Ryu (笠間示現流 ).

Nowadays only Jigen Ryu (示現流兵法 ) and Yakumaru Jigen Ryu (薬丸自顕流 ) are practiced in Kagoshima.

Don't really know anything about this other Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu. I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe that they have any connection with the Jigen Ryu from Satsuma.

[Fred27]

But none of these Jigen-ryu are related to Nen-ryu? (just tying up the loose ends before proclaiming the lineage is in error about that)

[ZealUK]

But none of these Jigen-ryu are related to Nen-ryu? (just tying up the loose ends before proclaiming the lineage is in error about that)

No relation to Nen Ryu.

[DDATFUS]

No relation to Nen Ryu.

Unless-- and I'm just deliberately making things complicated here-- you count the fact that Nen Ryu was an influence on Shinkage Ryu, which gave rise to Taisha Ryu, which was an influence on Jigen Ryu. Also, I would imagine, given the age of the schools, that at some point Nen Ryu had some influence on TSKSR and vice-versa. This is the type of confusing stuff that makes doing a lineage chart on koryu sword arts really difficult.

At some point in his life Kamiizumi studied a Kashima-based school. As far as I can tell, no one is exactly sure what that school was-- it might not have been the Kashima Shinto Ryu that exists today, but it probably was related. Somehow. So, besides whatever he trained in at Kashima, Kamiizumi also studied Nen and TSKSR, as well as Aisu Kage Ryu. Of the four schools that I have named, only two are still clearly identifiable today, making it very hard to be exactly sure how each style influenced him (to make matters more confusing, different schools that trace themselves from Kamiizumi tell different stories-- Jikishinkage emphasizes the Kashima connection, for example, while Yagyu Shinkage emphasizes the Kage Ryu connection). So when we see modern Kashima Shinto Ryu, is it a "parent art" of Shinkage? A "sibling" or a "cousin?" Any accurate koryu lineage chart will probably end up looking less like a nice, orderly family tree and more like an exploded plate of spaghetti.

[Steve Delaney]

Don't really know anything about this other Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu. I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe that they have any connection with the Jigen Ryu from Satsuma.

This is Tenshin Sho Jigen-ryu kenjutsu. Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu at the Katori Jinja honno embu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltWOVNAIybk)

Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu iai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6k0LJqIZp4)

What's your take on this Alex?

[Rasmus]

I am on vacation and don't have all my files with me, but I believe that there were 4 or 5 generations of Hijikata. Please get back to this thread when you're reunited with your files. I really do appreciate any information about the history of mugai-ryu and its various branches you might have.

Sincerly
/rasmus

[Seishin]

The Hijikata-ha of Mugai Ryu was in Tosa. Mugai Ryu Kenjutsu was originally introduced to the Yamanouchi's by Tsuji Gattan himself at their Edo residence. However, most of the teaching was probably conducted by his adopted son, Tsuji Kimata Sukehide (considered 2nd Soke) and later on his son, Tsuji Bunzaemon Suketaka, as they both held the positions os Shinan Yaku (sword instructors to the clan).

One of Tsuji Bunzaemon Suketaka's top students was Hijikata Sannojo Hisaharu, who became Shinan Yaku in the Temmei period (178189). The Hijikata -ha looks like this:

Hijikata Sannojo Hisaharu - Hijikata Hanzaburo Hisatoshi - Hijikata Itsuemon - Hijikata Togoro Hisataka - Kawasaki Hampei - Kawasaki Sensuke - Kawasaki Zensaburo (died in 1944 without a heir). What was being taught was most likely Kenjutsu, as Jikyo Ryu Iai might not have been transmitted within this line as. There was however some Batto waza in Mugai Ryu as well, which was being taught with the Kenjutsu.

The first person actually introducing Mugai Ryu in Tosa Han (the Yamanouchi's home province) was Morishita Gombei Tatsunao. He was born as the second son of Morishita Kannojo Tatsuharu, a vassal of the Yamanouchi family. At 18 he became a student of the then most renowned Ken Kyaku - Kobayashi Ichiozaemon of Jiki Shin Kage Ryu. Upon recommendation for his capability in Ken, he was transferrd to the Edo residence of the Yamanouchi family, where he, under Gattan, studied for 11 years, finally attaining to the secret teaching of Mugai Ryu. Gombei returned to Tosa and was appointed Shinan Yaku of the then lord, Yamanouchi Toyonobu in 1736. He remained unmarried and apparently died sitting in a za-zen posture at the age of 82 in 1769. He taught many students and there might even be lines of Mugai Ryu today tracing the lineage back to him.

Regards
Flemming

[Cliff Judge]

I'm bumping this thread because I am wondering if there is anything recent in this type of family tree research. I can't find the original German PDF.

For some reason i started watching youtube clips of Tatsumi ryu over the last week, and then at Swordfest 2011 I was watching Rob Rivers do some Mugai Ryu kumitachi with one of his students. Some of what they were doing looked very similar. I found myself wondering if there is any link between the two ryuha.

[r2-]

I'm bumping this thread because I am wondering if there is anything recent in this type of family tree research. I can't find the original German PDF.

For some reason i started watching youtube clips of Tatsumi ryu over the last week, and then at Swordfest 2011 I was watching Rob Rivers do some Mugai Ryu kumitachi with one of his students. Some of what they were doing looked very similar. I found myself wondering if there is any link between the two ryuha.
I'd be interested too if there exists a more comprehensive chart of some sort. The German pdf could use some improvements. It would certainly be very interesting for koryu enthusiasts, to have a visualisation of all that history and tradition.

I actually decided to have a try some time ago and downloaded a free family tree builder program, but found out almost immediately that it couldn't really handle all the connections. Talk about complex, and that was before I even got to considering all the conflicting information, unclear parts and less known schools.

[chien_fu]

I would be interested in this as well. I've been building a lineage tree of all martial arts styles and would love to have this info as part of the database.

[Karasu Maru]

The linkage of Mugai-ryu, Yamaguchi-ryu, Tamiya-ryu, Shin-Tamiya-ryu, Jikyo-ryu, Mizuno-ryu, Sakuragi-ryu, and Ten-ryu is as follows;

http://www.mugairyu-hyohotan.com/shidan06s.html