Confusion about kenjutsu/do and iajutsu/do

[jdostie]

I am wondering why Iajutsu would not be part of Kenjutsu training.

For Kendo, I suppose it might be because you are working with shinai . . . but with kenjutsu, I assume the whole point is to get to the point where you are - at least theoretically ready for combat. That being the case, you would want to have the iado/iajutsu skills would you not?

Is Iajutsu then usually taught in schools that teach kenjutsu - and the distinction being a technical matter?

Thanks

[Finny]

I am wondering why Iajutsu would not be part of Kenjutsu training.

AFAIK, that's kinda like saying "I wonder why Karate would not be a part of Judo training."

Iaijutsu and Kenjutsu are two slightly different things.

Some kenjutsu ryuha also practise iai - some don't.

but with kenjutsu, I assume the whole point is to get to the point where you are - at least theoretically ready for combat. That being the case, you would want to have the iado/iajutsu skills would you not?

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Some schools do train iai for exactly that reason. Some would argue that if you're a battlefield warrior, fast-drawing your sword is irrelevant.

Is Iajutsu then usually taught in schools that teach kenjutsu - and the distinction being a technical matter?

I wouldn't say usually - sometimes.

It's really a case-by-case thing.

[Aden]

If you look back to Japanese materials like the Honcho Bugei Shoden the Edo period Japanese viewed iai as a subset of swordsmanship - in the general sense there was little need for iai if you were in a formal duel where both draw the sword or other weapon and then close, or using the sword as a secondary weapon in battle when the primary weapon has been discarded.

Some kenjutsu ryu have iai/batto some don't - some have added iai to their repetoire later.

Aden

[Brian Owens]

It can also be a simple matter of terminology.

Some ryu consider kenjutsu and iaijutsu to be seperate components of the over-all heiho; kenjutsu being the term for those methods of using the drawn sword, and iaijutsu being the term for those methods of drawing and immediately subsequent cutting. They might refer to swordsmanship in general as toho.

In others, kenjutsu might be the term for all sword work, with kumitachi and batto being the terms for the two aspects.

Still others may use still different terminology. So one really can't make assumptions that are both general and accurate. As Finny said, the terminology as well as the actual practice is all case-by-case.

HTH.

[jdostie]

Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking of Iajutsu/Iado as something slightly different I guess.

The comment about "quick draw" maybe helps clarify for me. From the limited reading I had previously done, it seem that:
1. Iajutsu - draw, cut, clean, and replace of the sword
2. Kenjutsu - would be the more prolonged swordplay if that first cut did was not successful.

Let me revise my question then, in Kenjutsu is there no practice of sword drawing? I would have assumed there is, and if so, without getting technical, how is that differentiated from Iajutsu?

[jdostie]

So one really can't make assumptions that are both general and accurate. As Finny said, the terminology as well as the actual practice is all case-by-case.


Maybe that's basically my answer. That, and to go see some of each.

[bushikan]

Brain summed it up rather well, but in answer to your last question:

Let me revise my question then, in Kenjutsu is there no practice of sword drawing? I would have assumed there is, and if so, without getting technical, how is that differentiated from Iajutsu?

It really just depends on the style's preference. For example Shindo Munen Ryu Kenjutsu has Kumitachi and Iaijutsu both are listed seperatly and done the same fashion. Thats just how Fuiki Hyoemon decided to do things.

Muso Shinden Ryu Iaijutsu has the Iaijutsu portion and the Iai Kumitachi portion. In the Iai Kumitachi from the Tachi Uchi no Kurai to Daikedori practitioners use the sword in many different situations. In Deai and several other kumitachi subsequently after both swordsmen draw on eachother. Also in Dokumyoken and several other kumitachi alike the situation is more like "kenjutsu" I guess you could put it. But later on students will learn kumitachi like Daishozume and Daishotachizume and these kumitachi deal with grappling with the sword (kind, sort of) one could say that could be consitered Yawara or Jujutsu(ish). But it is all listed as Iai Kumitachi not kenjutsu, not iaijutsu, not yawara, just Iai Kumitachi. Its just how its been handed down for hundreds of years, and while one can be technical and say that has iai, or that has no iai, therefor it is blank its not. Simply put it is what it is. Kenjutsu/Iaijutsu or whatever else the style designates it to be.

hope this helps

[Charles Mahan]

It might help to understand that the thing which seperates Iai from kenjutsu is nukitsuke. The idea that the first cut begins with the sword still inside the saya. You don't draw and then cut. You just cut. That is not to say that nukitsuke is the end all and be all of iai training. Quite the contrary, the majority of most waza are the bits after nukitsuke, but it is the defining element which distinguishes iai from other forms of kenjutsu.

[jdostie]

Thanks a lot, that helps.

Now I am slightly less uninformed. :rolleyes:

[K. Cantwell]

Is Iajutsu then usually taught in schools that teach kenjutsu - and the distinction being a technical matter?

I think the guys above are quite correct when they say it's a terminology issue. Schools get pigeonholed as "doing this" or "this type of school" to make it easier for us to get a handle on them, but this can lead to fuzzy concepts sometimes. (So, you find out that a “spear” school also has quite an extensive kenjutsu curriculum. Their kenjutsu curriculum may also include iai technique.)

For example, Shinto Muso-ryu is generally seen as a stick school, but there is a ton of iai technique in it on the sword side. Just working on that aspect of the school could keep you busy for quite awhile.

Categorizing this stuff is necessary to academically study it and be able to talk about it with some semblance of cogency, but what is actually going on in the dojo stretches those categories.

Kevin Cantwell

[jdostie]

Categorizing this stuff is necessary to academically study it and be able to talk about it with some semblance of cogency, but what is actually going on in the dojo stretches those categories.

Kevin Cantwell

This is basically more along the lines of what I was thinking. I, of course, also had a misconception about Iai arts - in relation to other sword arts.

Thanks for helping me, I'm sure it will be come clearer as time goes on.

[Gusta in Japan]

For example, Shinto Muso-ryu is generally seen as a stick school, but there is a ton of iai technique in it on the sword side. Just working on that aspect of the school could keep you busy for quite awhile.
Kevin Cantwell
Could you give a few examples of the Iai techniques in shinto muso ryu please?

[K. Cantwell]

Could you give a few examples of the Iai techniques in shinto muso ryu please?

I'm thinking of the techniques in which uchidachi starts with the sword in the belt, like Ichi rei, Hosso michi, or Ushiro zue. It's interesting that the last technique in omote and the first two in chudan start like this. Likewise the last two in chudan and ran-ai begin with uchidachi having to draw and cut (with both long and short swords). There are other techniques in the higher level sets also.

How this is taught and the emphasis put on it will obviously vary from teacher to teacher. It's definitely there, though. I get corrected all the time for mistakes on the draw, so my teachers consider it to be a pretty important skill.

(I should clarify that when I say "iai technique" I'm not talking about noto or chiburi. I'm mainly taking about the swordsman having to mount his attack from the scabbard. I've never been taught or heard mention of chiburi in SMR, and noto is rather generic. I've been shown a few different ways to put the sword back in my belt. So, I'm not trying to say that SMR is a iai school like MJER is, but rather that swordsmen in SMR do need to know how to affect a competent and sincere draw. It is something you will have to learn how to do even though we tend to think of SMR as a jo school.)

Kevin Cantwell

[wreddock]

I get corrected all the time for mistakes on the draw
From my Iaido training point of view this interests me. If you don't mind saying what 'mistakes' or important points are you being corrected on. Thanks

[K. Cantwell]

From my Iaido training point of view this interests me. If you don't mind saying what 'mistakes' or important points are you being corrected on. Thanks

Well, we're getting into one of the technical areas that I don't think Internet fora are the best to discuss, but I'll do my best to give you an answer.

In broad terms, it boils down to the usual suspects: intent, targeting, ma-ai, angle, power creation, etc. I'm guilty of violations in pretty much every area.

The biggest is probably ma-ai, with intent a close second. My purpose is to draw and cut the ugly guy in front of me that is barring my way to the sake shop, but sometimes I'm worried too much about the mechanics of the draw and getting it "right" (counting steps instead of just feeling it, for example) and my attack is just lame. Other times I am simply too deep or too shallow (much more common for me). Rushing it is also a problem. We don't use iaito during kata practice, but if we did, I'd blow out the koiguchi or cut my own arm off ten times a session.

I did Muso Shinden-ryu for a bit, and the biggest problem for me was adjusting to getting the ma-ai right with a live human being trying to get his ma-ai right on the other side. I didn't do Shinden-ryu nearly long enough to do any partner exercises or develop a proper sense of ma-ai that I'm sure iai guys develop over time. The first time I actually had to draw against a live opponent was doing SMR kata. One of my dojo-mates trained in Shinden-ryu much longer than I did, and he didn't have the same problems I did. He had a much better sense of ma-ai from the saya than me. It still gives me fits, especially if the other guy changes his timing.

As I said above, we don't do chiburi and noto isn't as formalized as it is in iai schools. We do have proper ways to do it, but it isn't as paramount a component for me now as it was when I was solely doing iai. Some of us use plastic saya with our bokuto, which does bring up proper saya manipulation. You don't have to use the saya, however, which means different mechanics if you are just seating the bokuto in your obi. This doesn't make up a huge portion of the correction, however.

Some of the mistakes are kata specific and others have to do with simply not doing something the way my teacher wants me to do at that moment, so trying to describe them to you wouldn't do much good.

Hope this helps.

Kevin Cantwell

[Eisenheim]

Well if I may add my part to this, there is quite a difference between the two. My swordsmanship school, Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, encourages the practice of both arts. I do not wish to repeat what most have already said, stating the obvious, but there is one crucial thing I might add:
-The iai is more realistic when we compare it to a real combat
-The ken was designed to learn what we should do when facing such or such a situation. If you are a skilled swordsman, you will realize that there are many lethal moments in each ken, where one of the two warriors could have wounded or killed the other.

Enjoy this knowledge.

Joel Neves

[ScottUK]

Enjoy this knowledge.Thanks for sharing that...

[pgsmith]

Well if I may add my part to this, there is quite a difference between the two. My swordsmanship school, Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, encourages the practice of both arts.
So Joel,
How long have you been studying TSKSR that you've achieved such insight? Who is your instructor?

-The ken was designed to learn what we should do when facing such or such a situation.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by "the ken".

Enjoy this knowledge.
Thanks!

[ScottUK]

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by "the ken".I'll have a wild guess and say he means the names of the iaijutsu kata - Kusanagi no ken, Nukitsuke no ken, Nukiuchi no ken etc.

[Eisenheim]

So Joel,
How long have you been studying TSKSR that you've achieved such insight? Who is your instructor?

Actually, I practice TSKSR with the Aikibudo/Kobudo master Monsieur Damblant in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. I am not sure if the practice of both the iai (as in iaijutsu) and ken (as in kenjutsu) is done all accross the world, but my dojo does. We also learn the bo and naginata (more advanced).


I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by "the ken".

There are 4 ken, from kenjutsu. They are practiced in groups of 2, one on one. Both opponents use the bokken.

Enjoy!

Joel Neves

[hyaku]

So Joel,
How long have you been studying TSKSR that you've achieved such insight? Who is your instructor?

Actually, I practice TSKSR with the Aikibudo/Kobudo master Monsieur Damblant in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. I am not sure if the practice of both the iai (as in iaijutsu) and ken (as in kenjutsu) is done all accross the world, but my dojo does. We also learn the bo and naginata (more advanced).


I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by "the ken".

There are 4 ken, from kenjutsu. They are practiced in groups of 2, one on one. Both opponents use the bokken.

Enjoy!

Joel Neves

If they use a Bokken it can be a wooden sword of any shape. Ken means 'a sword' If one refers to for example a western sword it would be a 'ken' The common word is To as in Nihon-to. Hence the term bokuto reffering to a wooden Japanese sword.

Not trying to be picky. its just that ken is more of a generalization rather than being specific.

Swordwork is all in pursuit of cultural activity nowadays regardless of it being 'justu' or 'do' be it with creative visualization against an imaginary opponent of falling short of injuring someone with a good cut.

[Brian Owens]

...There are 4 ken, from kenjutsu. They are practiced in groups of 2, one on one. Both opponents use the bokken.
I'd check out your terminology with your teacher, if I were you.

"Ken" just means "sword" -- as in "kenjutsu" or "Kendo." I think the word you are looking for is "kata" (or "waza").

Maybe in your dojo you use "ken" as a shortcut word for "kenjutsu kata," but to those outside your dojo it doesn't make sense within the context you've used.


...Actually, I practice TSKSR with the Aikibudo/Kobudo master Monsieur Damblant in Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
I assume then, that it's not mainline TSKSR. Do you know if it's Sugino-ha or Sugawara-ha?

[Fred27]

Sugino Senseis group by the looks of it. http://www.clubbudomontreal.com/

"Bokken": "ken" means sword as you said. And "bokuto" means wooden sword, with "to" being another word for sword. But in "Bokken", does "Bok" specifically mean "wood(en)"? Just trying to get the translations in order :)

[Brian Owens]

..."Bokken": "ken" means sword as you said. And "bokuto" means wooden sword, with "to" being another word for sword. But in "Bokken", does "Bok" specifically mean "wood(en)"?
If you break down the compound, it's actually "bo" and "ken," not "bok" and "ken." (There is no k in Japanese, just ka, ki, ku, ke, and ko.)

The reason for the double k is that in the Hepburn system of romanization, double consonants are used to indicate a short pause between syllables, at the point just before the doubled letters. (I think the pause is called a "glottal stop.")

Anyway, as with "bokuto," "bokken" means "wooden sword." As far as I know, it's actually written with the "boku" kanji, but is understood to be abreviated in pronunciation.

Bokuto = 木刀

Bokken = 木剣

HTH.

[Fred27]

If you break down the compound, it's actually "bo" and "ken," not "bok" and "ken." (There is no k in Japanese, just ka, ki, ku, ke, and ko.)

The reason for the double k is that in the Hepburn system of romanization, double consonants are used to indicate a short pause between syllables, at the point just before the doubled letters. (I think the pause is called a "glottal stop.")

Anyway, as with "bokuto," "bokken" means "wooden sword." As far as I know, it's actually written with the "boku" kanji, but is understood to be abreviated in pronunciation.

Bokuto = 木刀

Bokken = 木剣

HTH.

Ah!...Well that actually makes more sense. Thanks! :) I really need to start learning Japanese. Can I learn from you via email-correspondence? :p

[Eric Spinelli]

Even within a single art people love to bicker. Is it MJER iai-jutsu, iai-dou, or iai-heihou? Some people set their faction apart from the rest by some such distinction; some people call it one thing but write another formally on their menkyo; some probably don't even know. In the end, it's like all the other posts in that it doesn't really matter too much. In my neck of the woods - we're a pretty casual group - we usually just say, "iai" and leave it at that.

Trying to edit a supposed-to-be-a-PM post into some semblence of on-topic coherency, sorry...

Sincerely,

[Eisenheim]

I'd check out your terminology with your teacher, if I were you.

"Ken" just means "sword" -- as in "kenjutsu" or "Kendo." I think the word you are looking for is "kata" (or "waza").

Maybe in your dojo you use "ken" as a shortcut word for "kenjutsu kata," but to those outside your dojo it doesn't make sense within the context you've used.

Yes I am terribly sorry if I did not specify that in "ken" I referred to the kenjutsu kata. We do use "ken" as a shortcut, just like we say "Katori Shinto Ryu" instead of the whole long name of the swordsmanship style.

Joel Neves

[Eisenheim]

Sugino Senseis group by the looks of it. http://www.clubbudomontreal.com/

This is quite true, Fred. I am curious to know how you found the link though! :)

[ScottUK]

This is quite true, Fred. I am curious to know how you found the link though! :)Budo/bujutsu is a small world...

[Fred27]

This is quite true, Fred. I am curious to know how you found the link though! :)

Not through any sinister method I assure you. :)

I have a gomokuroku in Shinto-ryu Googlejutsu, and the information you provided earlier (aikibudo/Kobudo master Monsieur Damblant in Montreal, Quebec, Canada) was more than enough to connect the dots. :)

[Eisenheim]

Not through any sinister method I assure you. :)

I have a gomokuroku in Shinto-ryu Googlejutsu, and the information you provided earlier (aikibudo/Kobudo master Monsieur Damblant in Montreal, Quebec, Canada) was more than enough to connect the dots. :)


Well congradulations with that, Fred! :)

Joel Neves

[Brian Owens]

...I really need to start learning Japanese. Can I learn from you via email-correspondence? :p
Well, that would be a case of the blind leading the blind. I only know a smattering of Budo related terms; how to say "please," "thank you," and "please bring the check"; and so on.

Our own E-Budo Language forum is a good resource, of course, and there are lots of posts about where and how to learn more.


...some people call it one thing but write another formally on their menkyo...
I can relate to that.

In Seiki Ryu we always refered to our arts as kenjutsu and jodo, but my menjo say "toho, jo no katachi."

[Charles Mahan]

some people call it one thing but write another formally on their menkyo

I can vouch for that. The branch of MJER I am part of is usually refered to as MJER Iaido, and is a member of the Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei, but the rank certificates issued by the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Seitokai list it as Iai-heiho.

[Jason H.P. Yoo]

Well, they could all circumvent the iai-jutsu vs. iai-do vs. iai-hyoho vs iai-... debate by referring to it all as "iai-nuki". :D

Sorry, I just had to. No insult to the sword artists here is intended.

[Eisenheim]

No insult to the sword artists here is intended.

None taken.

Joel Neves