Cutting with hara

[Swordy]

Hi guys :)

I've been able to read that the projection of hara requires both soles of the feet planted firmly on the ground.

So, the question is, how does hara work in kneeling position?

Chris O

[renfield_kuroda]

Don't know how other styles do it, but for us, cutting from the hara, or hips, or whatever you call it, has very little to do with the feet. The lower body is there to give a base for the hips and the rest of the body. For example when I cut from seiza, I rarely go up onto the ball of my back foot until I'm already cutting, because I'm not using the foot to push:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4v8QTmqFpbA

So the simple answer is: we cut from seiza the same way we cut from standing.
And yes I know that doesn't help, but there's really nothing more to it than that and there certainly isn't any way I could possibly explain it in words.

Regards,

r e n

[Chidokan]

I am fairly sure by looking at what I do that you have to use all the lower body to get maximum gain from minimum effort as it were... Iwata s. insists on it in fact.
I use my toes to grip the floor, tensing all my legs through the buttocks and the stomach muscles all at the same time, which tightens my lower back which finally then triggers the muscles to make the cut. (when I get it right that is.. :rolleyes: ) I do the same from seiza, although the rear foot doesn't contribute as much as when standing, which is why seiza is easier to do as there are less muscles to control. Not that seiza is easy of course. :D As Renfield says it is hard to describe, I usually use exercises for my students so they understand the muscle system...

[Douglas Wylie]

I've been able to read that the projection of hara requires both soles of the feet planted firmly on the ground.

Ahh, you want me to wax poetic on a Sunday morning about the nature of the martial arts...

It's about humping. Yes, that humping.

"Projecting hara", "moving from center/hips/hara/tandien", "using core muscles", "tightening your rear/butt", "using ki/chi/qi/the force", "pelvic thrust", "cutting with your hips/center", etc... are all euphemisms for humping.

You tighten your midsection and your butt and tilt your pelvis forward for power (or "on the power stroke"). Without messing up your posture, mind you. People who do it tend to do it all the time, even when not practicing martial arts. I can pick them out in a crowd. I can just about tell you if someone is "good" at martial arts just by watching them walk out onto the dojo floor and begin to move around. It's that intangible "something", they move from their center, they hump.

It is also the thing that ties together different arts that seemingly have little to do with each other. Say judo and iaido. Juji Gatame (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/kansetsu/juji_gatame.gif) and Mae (http://www.roshukai-ireland.org/iwata.html), an outsider (to one or the other of these arts, or both) would say these techniques have nothing in common. However this is not true, the use of the center for power is the same, you hump in both of them (if done properly).

So, no you do not have to have your soles on the floor to use your center.

[Charles Mahan]

There is some stylistic preferences in mind here. The folks who cut while their feet are completely off the ground will tell you they cut from the hara too. In some style's, that just doesn't fit with the way the concept is taught. A cut which is very firmly grounded will have more ability to resist the opposite reactive force during the cut. You know the whole every action has an equal an opposite reaction thing. That doesn't mean someone completely off the ground isn't cutting with hara, nor does it mean they won't cut you VERY badly.

[Swordy]

People who do it tend to do it all the time, even when not practicing martial arts. I can pick them out in a crowd. I can just about tell you if someone is "good" at martial arts just by watching them walk out onto the dojo floor and begin to move around. It's that intangible "something", they move from their center, they hump.
Wow?! So there truly is a pattern of movement that you can percieve?

It's about humping. Yes, that humping.
Bwahahahaha! :) I see... :rolleyes:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4v8QTmqFpbA

A lunge? Is there always a lunging motion when cutting from seiza?

That doesn't mean someone completely off the ground isn't cutting with hara, nor does it mean they won't cut you VERY badly.

and a hop/jump generated by the leg and abdominal muscles creates stored potential energy for the cut as well. The trade off is a temporary disconnection from the ground, i suppose?

So another requirement for hara projection is strong muscles in the leg, abdominal and back muscles?

[Douglas Wylie]

You aren't trying to cut anything without a teacher, right?

[renfield_kuroda]

A lunge? Is there always a lunging motion when cutting from seiza?
Lunge? That's called maai, and all I'm doing is closing it.

Regards,

r e n

[glad2bhere]

I apologize in advance if what I say offends anyone. Thats is not my intention. Just know that what I am about to say is authentic from the standpoint of the KMA.

Sometime back I was discussing cutting targets with my teacher and noticed that there was some aspect of the cut that he was reluctant to mention. His reference was to an "instantaneous tightening" at the point of contact with the target.

Fast forward ahead to September of 2004 when I took training in Korea with the 3rd Inheritor ("Dojun") of Choi Yong Sul's Hapkido tradiion. Dojunim Kim repeatedly encouraged each of us, whether during breathing practice, or executing a technique to "tighten your anus" at the focus of the event. What I found was that such an effort reinforced the interplay between the muscles of the pelvis and the muscles at the base of the spine (Sacrum). The result was a singularly "effortless" technique.

Later I began to use the same biomechanic when performing my cutting and found additional stability and focus with the technique. I have continued to follow this insight and believe (subjectively) that my technique has increased in effectiveness while diminishing in effort.

I make no claims other than to report my personal experience. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Swordy]

You aren't trying to cut anything without a teacher, right?
Haha, I don't own steel swords. Only a bokuto from basic training back in college but that was a long time ago. Now, I'm just busy with work.

Lunge? That's called maai, and all I'm doing is closing it.
Yup but without the lunging step and a bigger tatami roll, the guy in the video would have trouble cutting thru. The Lunging step throws the momentum towards the cut (also keeps the guy from toppling over). Basically answers my question. I've never done sword techniques from sitting before.

I know these things from training: stepping, breath timing, its essentially the same with what you guys are doing but the meaning of hara escapes me.

From what you guys said, i gather hara, its more or less throwing your body weight or momentum around, its nothing magical as it's archaic name suggests.

Im trying to get a more quantifiable view of how it works.

Another question would be, would a heavier person create more hara and cutting power because of weight and momentum?

Side question, are there any schools that teach sword techniques on horseback?

[glad2bhere]

Yes. As a matter of fact I just saw a clip on YOU TUBE regarding Koreans who train in using historic material on horseback. I believe the clip shows training with the short spear, but I understand that all of the Korean weapons are trained for in this manner. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[hyaku]

Its not so much description of how to use hara taking years to actually feel it.

One day after many many years of work one will feel it and be able to say "It cut". Even well known menkyo kaiden will admit that they still cant use it in every situation where its needed. It's a lifetimes practice.

One thing for sure its those of it that do it that can quickly recognize those that don't. So its wise not to put movies up on the net unless you have it or see it right :p

[Douglas Wylie]

True dat!

Being aware of it and doing it are not the same thing! Some days, I flat out suck! Other days I'm on fire. When I can do it properly on my worst day, I'll feel like I accomplished something. Say, in 30 years or so.

[renfield_kuroda]

Yup but without the lunging step and a bigger tatami roll, the guy in the video would have trouble cutting thru. The Lunging step throws the momentum towards the cut (also keeps the guy from toppling over). Basically answers my question. I've never done sword techniques from sitting before.
Interesting analysis, but totally wrong. I can cut at various maai; closer, farther, doesn't matter much. The "lunge" is irrelevant to the power generated from the hips; that's just closing distance.
BTW, the dude in the vid is me, and no I wouldn't be toppling over if the target was closer, I simply wouldn't close the distance as much.

I know these things from training: stepping, breath timing, its essentially the same with what you guys are doing but the meaning of hara escapes me.
From what you guys said, i gather hara, its more or less throwing your body weight or momentum around, its nothing magical as it's archaic name suggests.
Entirely not true; hara is not "throwing your body weight around", and yes it's not magical. Hara is simply a Japanese word that means, more or less, stomach or abdomen.
The concept of moving from the center, as opposed to moving from say the feet or leading with the arms or something, is also not a concept unique to sword; it is common in many martial arts.

Regards,

r e n

[Chidokan]

I just realised I forgot to mention the timing of it all....if it doesnt all come together at the instant of the cut it doesnt work either. Which is why Hyaku mentioned the difficulty of getting it right I think...
Iwata sensei tells me I need it all the time for nanadan or I won't pass. Good job I'm not in for that then! :D

[Swordy]

Hallo! :)

Interesting analysis, but totally wrong. I can cut at various maai; closer, farther, doesn't matter much. The "lunge" is irrelevant to the power generated from the hips; that's just closing distance. BTW, the dude in the vid is me, and no I wouldn't be toppling over if the target was closer, I simply wouldn't close the distance as much.

Oh, my apologies, sir Ren! I didnt know it was you nor did I mean any insult in my assertion. It wasn't about your distancing either.

I was trying to trace the transfer of energy from your rest/sitting position to the moment of your cut. I noticed that from seiza you stepped forth (lunged) keeping your knee (and shin??) and the sole of your right foot firmly on the ground to steady your base, freeing your hips to generate power by shifting it. I assumed that by doing so, your body momentum also shifted to your right leg and then to the tip of your sword as you struck. It looked consistent to my current level of understanding of hara in cutting.

Entirely not true; hara is not "throwing your body weight around", and yes it's not magical. Hara is simply a Japanese word that means, more or less, stomach or abdomen.
Opps, i shortened it too much, i am aware of the meaning. What i meant was "using hara".

One day after many many years of work one will feel it and be able to say "It cut". Even well known menkyo kaiden will admit that they still cant use it in every situation where its needed. It's a lifetimes practice.

One thing for sure its those of it that do it that can quickly recognize those that don't.
Hmm... It's beginning to sounds mysterious again. :)


Chris O

[Douglas Wylie]

Hmm... It's beginning to sounds mysterious again.

The ONLY way to understand is to find a really good teacher and spend a couple of decades in steady training. Everything else is just mental masturbation.

It's only mysterious because it does not lend itself to being quickly and easily transmitted in a few written paragraphs by people you don't know.

[Swordy]

The ONLY way to understand is to find a really good teacher and spend a couple of decades in steady training.
I see what you mean. I suppose it takes experience to actually know it.

[Kyro Lantsberger]

It's about humping. Yes, that humping.

"Projecting hara", "moving from center/hips/hara/tandien", "using core muscles", "tightening your rear/butt", "using ki/chi/qi/the force", "pelvic thrust", "cutting with your hips/center", etc... are all euphemisms for humping.


Very interesting that you mention this. I once had a Taiwanese Chi Gung master say this very same thing as a correction. Literally. "No, No, just do it like *blank*ing."

And the 2007 segue of the year...........This sort of thing is developing in me an academic interest in the Koryu styles/JSA. I think many of the body mechanics of the older Japanese styles are very consistent with the body of material that became the Chinese Neija.

[Douglas Wylie]

Very interesting that you mention this. I once had a Taiwanese Chi Gung master say this very same thing as a correction. Literally. "No, No, just do it like *blank*ing."

Hey, that is awesome!

I came up with that to help me teach. I needed to connect it to something that made sense to everyone instead of having some abstract new-agey mumbo-jumbo that nobody "gets". Plus, the risque' delivery of the message helped stick it in student's heads.

[chrismoses]

Hey, that is awesome!

I came up with that to help me teach. I needed to connect it to something that made sense to everyone instead of having some abstract new-agey mumbo-jumbo that nobody "gets". Plus, the risque' delivery of the message helped stick it in student's heads.

Some Hsing-Yi doctrines also make this comparison. :D

[Chidokan]

I compare the stomach muscle tension to having constipation...that also seems to do the trick with students...

[Michael Hodge]

Beyond its etymological definition, hara holds quite wide-ranging and in a lot of cases, quite subtle meanings. To move or cut with hara is to, in effect, activate the totality of the physical (and spiritual) "apparatus." Hara isn't limited to martial arts either -- it's quite possible to be an accomplished orator who demonstrates hara, or even an expert equestrian.

I personally liken it to the term "chops" I've heard jazz musicians toss around about one another. It suggests something of an transcendent, extraordinary element that enters a performance, that something cultivated by repeated practice over many years, but like swordsmanship, the common thing is the involvement of one's entire being. That's my somewhat mystical explanation anyway.

Anyhow, read the following book.

Hara: The Vital Center of Man
Karfried Graf Durckheim
ISBN: 1-59477-024-7

Michael Hodge

[Swordy]

Hara isn't limited to martial arts either -- it's quite possible to be an accomplished orator who demonstrates hara, or even an expert equestrian.
Oh, i remember this in music class in grade school. Our music teacher used to lose her temper whenever our voices did not come from the thoracic diaphragm when singing... No wonder she had such a thunderous kiai! :rolleyes:

[hyaku]

I compare the stomach muscle tension to having constipation...that also seems to do the trick with students...

Hello Tim

As Japanese are constipated most of their lives maybe that's why they do it all so well? :rolleyes:

[Chidokan]

its the rice doncha know.. :D Hows life going in downtown Cebu then? Having fun? I keep expecting to see some seminars advertised at some point!

[pgsmith]

I keep expecting to see some seminars advertised at some point!
Or pictures from the latest dive! :)

[Chidokan]

'dive' as in 'seedy downtown bar' or 'scuba diving with pretty fish pics'? :D

[100110]

My understanding is that while the subject can be discussed up to a point, there is no magical explanation beyond that point which will make one "get it" any quicker than through ordinary means - ie practice. It's a hackneyed answer but I believe it's the correct one. That said, of course it's impossible to practice correctly without some sort of verbal explanation. But only a certain amount is useful.

[Swordy]

its the rice doncha know.. :D Hows life going in downtown Cebu then? Having fun? I keep expecting to see some seminars advertised at some point!
I love rice. Its the staple food of Asian countries. :)

Err, Hyaku is currently in Cebu? :)

Chris O

[Ken-Hawaii]

Rice notwithstanding, the concept & implementation of hara is central to just about every form of combat, not to mention our wonderful sword arts.

I've been studying & teaching judo for 55+ years, & hara is what makes things happen the way you want them to happen when you want them to happen. It's also exactly the same in European fencing: if you're not lunging precisely over & through your center, you're probably toast. And again it's the same in combat shooting: you want to be perfectly centered before you pull that trigger, even if you're dodging some other sucker's bullets. And now that I think about it, hara was pretty much what we strived for when we were dropping all kinds of explosive goodies 'way back in Viet Nam.

I chuckled over the puckering & constipation explanations, but to me it's really working completely around my center, & as several have already said, once you understand hara (which means you're using it unconsciously), you can almost instantly pick out similarly-trained people in any crowd. Just keep listening to your Sensei -- he or she may not use the same words, but either you'll eventually be able to understand, or you'll leave in total frustration. :rolleyes:

[Chidokan]

Hyaku's 'retired' there...hence the Cebu HNIR club!! (and loads of uploads of his diving piccies recently) I reckon he should have a seminar there, anybody up for it? You could tell the mrs it was a special holiday treat for her. ;) :D

[Swordy]

Wow! So, does this mean we have a full time instructor for HNIR, Kendo, Iai and parhaps... Choken Battojutsu here in Cebu? :)

Cebu HNIR club
Yup, last i heard from my sensei before i graduated was that he was going to be a student again... I just learned a year ago when i 'met' Hyaku in swordforums that he was actually learning HNIR under him.

I think my sensei heads the group in Hyaku's absence. :)

I reckon he should have a seminar there, anybody up for it?
Please, do, and kindly leave some sort of announcement here because I'm almost always terribly uniformed... :)

[Chidokan]

I am not sure Hyaku is 'absent'... I'd pop along to the dojo and find out if I were you! :)

[Swordy]

Hmm, one of these days, ill sneak into the dojo and surprise sensei that this baka deshi has returned... :p